From Majordomo@xxx.edu Fri Apr 28 15:56:40 1995 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 95 12:38:50 GMT From: Majordomo@xxx.edu To: wrm@xxx.za Subject: Majordomo file: list 'diy_efi' file 'archive_num_62' -- >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 13:26:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01455; Wed, 1 Mar 95 13:26:28 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01450; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:26:25 -0500 Received: from pm1_22.magicnet.net (pm1_22.magicnet.net [204.96.116.72]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA03621; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:38:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199503011338.IAA03621@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 08:13:09 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The big advantage with using engine speed and throttle position as references in mapping an engine, is the exact repeatability of any set of conditions. To get any air mass meter to give out a specific voltage at an RPM is less easy, especially if you are trying to do this without a dyno. In air mass meters I do include manifold pressure sensors. The problems which doing it without an air mass meter generate, occur when the environment changes. If you do your programming at sea level on a sunny day at 70 degrees, the programming will not be correct when it is raining and you are half way up a mountain. Therefore, if you are going all out for performance and ease of programming, use throttle and engine speed. Otherwise, incorporate environment sensing with an air mass meter of some sort. A hot wire air mass meter will cater for inlet temperature, humidity,density (above sea level) and load. The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors are squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power settings sequential injection will provide better economy and emissions. The reason is inlet tract wall wetting and fuel droplet coalescing. If you imagine the fuel as an onion, you burn off layers until it is all gone. The smaller the droplet the fewer the layers and the more complete the combustion. Leaving the droplets in the inlet allows them to coalesce and create bigger droplets. Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 13:54:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01571; Wed, 1 Mar 95 13:54:45 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01566; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:54:41 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rjopa-000CycC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 07:52 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 07:52:45 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503010111.AA18889@xxx.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 1, 95 12:11:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1881 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > > 3. Oxygens sensors: Several years ago there were wide A/F range sensors > > available for about $750 each. Clearly, the slick solution is to use > > something like that. Has the price come down enough so they are being used? > > A bolt on aftermarket that could build it's own table would make things > > so much easier. > >From what I've gatherd, there are at least two types of wide A/F EGO sensors. > The NTK sensor which is useful for AFRs from 10 to 30:1 which costs close > to Aus$900 and the wide band Bosch unit which is wide band only in the lean > region and cost around Aus$250. The Bosch unit operates as a voltage source > as do normal EGO sensors. I'm not sure how the NTK unit (nor the Japanese > UEGO sensors fitted to production cars) work. I'm not familiar with the sensors that the Jap lean-burn stuff use. I have used the NGK UEGO (it was US$1000 back then) though. The useful range is actually a Lambda range, the AFR range will depend on the fuel you are using. I was using the sensor with a Horiba MEXA-101L and it worked GREAT for tuning! It has two problems that I can think of for feedback control use, though. First, it's useful life is somewhere around 200 hrs. The second is that has to go through a 30 second burnoff cycle each time you turn it on, so you can't just turn it on when you get near WOT (I'm going by the Horiba owner's manual on this one, someone please correct me if this isnt really necessary). I have heard of at least one person doing closed loop under transients with the NGK's on marine race motors. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:33:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01664; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:33:52 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01659; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:33:49 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA17624; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:33:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:33:46 -0500 From: bowling@xxx.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503011433.AA17624@xxx.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: PLease help me Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Date: Wed, 01 Mar 1995 08:13:09 -0500 > From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) > Subject: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed > The big advantage with using engine speed and throttle position as > references in mapping an engine, is the exact repeatability of any set of > conditions. To get any air mass meter to give out a specific voltage at an > RPM is less easy, especially if you are trying to do this without a dyno. In > air mass meters I do include manifold pressure sensors. I hope adjustability for load changes is in there. Absolute throttle position helps (throttle will be open more when going up a steep hill (more load) than on level grade at same speed, for ex.). > The problems which doing it without an air mass meter generate, occur when > the environment changes. If you do your programming at sea level on a sunny > day at 70 degrees, the programming will not be correct when it is raining > and you are half way up a mountain. Therefore, if you are going all out for See my subsequent post on how to correct to standard conditions..... > The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are > running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors are > squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power Right! Do the math, and see that at high RPMs the injector is open a great deal of time. Go to larger-flowing injectors and you may have controlability at idle. Dynamic range is a wonderful thing...... ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:57:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01827; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:57:04 GMT Received: from aces1.acenet.auburn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01822; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:57:01 -0500 Received: from aces6 (aces6.acenet.auburn.edu) by acenet.auburn.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1 aces1 1.0) id AA23554; Wed, 1 Mar 95 08:56:59 CST From: Gregory A. Parmer Received: by aces6 (5.0/SMI-4.1) id AA09483; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:56:58 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 08:56:58 -0600 Message-Id: <9503011456.AA09483@aces6> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: PLease help me X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 993 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > The sequential injection systems add nothing to power! Most vehicles are > > running with the injectors fully open at full power and so all injectors ar > > squirting a continuous stream of fuel into the inlet. At lower power > > Right! Do the math, and see that at high RPMs the injector is open > a great deal of time. Go to larger-flowing injectors and you may have > controlability at idle. Dynamic range is a wonderful thing...... 'Member how "History repeats itself?" The problem of idle metering vs high flow at WOT is what led to SECONDARIES in the carburetor days. The way to have the best of both worlds is to have a sequential system for proper control at idle and some form of secondary injection at higher speeds. I'd like to walk before I run, however... -greg Greg Parmer INTERNET: gparmer@xxx.edu Lead Specialist, Network Support VOICE: (205) 844-9660 Alabama Cooperative Extension Service FAX: (205) 844-3501 Auburn University, AL 36849-5646 >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 14:58:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01842; Wed, 1 Mar 95 14:58:30 GMT Received: from nrcnet.nrc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01837; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:58:28 -0500 Received: from DECNET-MAIL by NRCNET.NRC.CA (PMDF #12639) id <01HNM8IW02A88WWTI0@xxx.CA>; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:48 EST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 09:48 EST From: Peter Orban Subject: Test & Measurement World magazine To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HNM8IW02A88WWTI0@xxx.CA> X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu X-Vms-To: NRCNET::IN%"DIY_EFI@xxx.edu" Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The february copy of the above magazine is a special issue devoted to automotive testing. Most of the articles contain general information, but a one page article describes how to diagnose and test oxigen sensors in closed loop control systems. It also had diagrams of ox sensor waveforms of engines working in "good" and "bad" mode. Peter -- Peter Orban National Research Council of Canada Internet: peter.orban@xxx.ca >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 15:19:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02051; Wed, 1 Mar 95 15:19:35 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02046; Wed, 1 Mar 95 10:19:32 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rjqBh-000vImC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rjqBU-000uHaC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:19:27 CST Date: Wed, 1 Mar 95 09:14:26 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@xxx.com Subject: re: Re: PLease help me get up to date/speed To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI | 'cat' writes, | > ... | > 1) Speed density vs mass flow: robert dingli replied: | | Mass flow system still require a mapping between engine speed and mass | air flow and injector output (which can exist in many forms such as | desired AFR maps and/or volumetric efficiency maps). What is the mapping for? | In fully tuned form | they perform as well as speed-density systems and are more suitable for | many production systems. Aftermarket EFI is a totally different matter. | | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. Why is this? >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 1 16:20:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02383; Wed, 1 Mar 95 16:20:53 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02378; Wed, 1 Mar 95 11:20:38 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA18312; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:20:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 11:20:34 -0500 From: bowling@xxx.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503011620.AA18312@xxx.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: standard corrections Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI It is often desirable, when comparing test data taken on differnet days, to convert measured readings to a known "standard". There are two commonly-used corrections - the "standard", and the SAE J1349, which differ only in whrer they define standard temp. The correction, applied to obtained torque values with noted temperature, baraometer, and humidity, is the following: Standard correction STD: CF = (29.92 "Hg)/(TBaro - VP) * sqrt((459.7 + CAT)/519.7) with: Tbaro = Test Barometric pressure in inches of mercury VP = Vapor Pressure CAT = "Carburetor" Air Temperature in degrees F (engine inlet) For SAE J1349: CF = (29.92 "Hg)/(TBaro - VP) * sqrt((459.7 + CAT)/536.7) with: Tbaro = Test Barometric pressure in inches of mercury VP = Vapor Pressure CAT = "Carburetor" Air Temperature in degrees F (engine inlet) Using one of the CF values, the corrected torque is: Tcorr = (Tmeas + Ft)*CF - Ft with: Tcorr = Corrected Torque Tmeas = Measured Torque Ft = Friction Torque (see below) Friction torque (measured) table: Piston Speed Factor ---------------------- 0 0.088 500 0.105 1000 0.120 1500 0.145 2000 0.170 2500 0.203 3000 0.233 3500 0.265 4000 0.308 4500 0.368 5000 0.433 5500 0.503 6000 0.573 6500 0.650 7000 0.725 With Piston Speed = (RPM *Stroke)/6 RPM revs/min Stroke = engine stroke (inches) So Friction Torque is: Ft = Factor(Piston Speed) * CID with CID = Cubic Inch Displacement I have a subroutine (in "C") which computes all of the above which I wrote. It determines vapor pressure from humidity, and has altitude correction. I can post it if there is interest. ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 00:47:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04048; Thu, 2 Mar 95 00:47:42 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04043; Wed, 1 Mar 95 19:47:36 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA23553 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:47:33 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:46:42 +1100 Message-Id: <199503020046.LAA09687@xxx.AU> Subject: NGK UEGO sensors To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:46:39 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: > robert dingli writes: > > The NTK sensor which is useful for AFRs from 10 to 30:1 which costs close > > to Aus$900 and the wide band Bosch unit which is wide band only in the lean > > region and cost around Aus$250. The Bosch unit operates as a voltage source > > as do normal EGO sensors. I'm not sure how the NTK unit (nor the Japanese > > UEGO sensors fitted to production cars) work. > Note NTK (above) should read NGK. :-) > I'm not familiar with the sensors that the Jap lean-burn stuff use. > I have used the NGK UEGO (it was US$1000 back then) though. The useful > range is actually a Lambda range, the AFR range will depend on the fuel > you are using. I was using the sensor with a Horiba MEXA-101L and it > worked GREAT for tuning! It has two problems that I can think of for > feedback control use, though. First, it's useful life is somewhere > around 200 hrs. The second is that has to go through a 30 second > burnoff cycle each time you turn it on, so you can't just turn it on > when you get near WOT (I'm going by the Horiba owner's manual on this > one, someone please correct me if this isnt really necessary). I have > heard of at least one person doing closed loop under transients with > the NGK's on marine race motors. > I colleague of mine tested the viability of using individual NGK sensors in each of eight exhaust runners in a 5 litre Group A Commodore. As part of an initial test, he placed all eight sensors at the same point in an exhaust stream only to find that they each required individual calibration as a function of temperature (I'm not sure of the specific problem here). Anyway, he later settled on using one sensor with individual exhaust tappings from each of the runners. His concern was balancing the eight cylinders and thus only the relative AFR was important. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 01:14:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04107; Thu, 2 Mar 95 01:14:17 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04102; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:14:10 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA24961 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 2 Mar 1995 11:14:00 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:13:01 +1100 Message-Id: <199503020113.MAA09732@xxx.AU> Subject: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 12:12:59 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: | > 1) Speed density vs mass flow: > > robert dingli replied: > | > | Mass flow system still require a mapping between engine speed and mass > | air flow and injector output (which can exist in many forms such as > | desired AFR maps and/or volumetric efficiency maps). > > What is the mapping for? The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant air-fuel ratio. The desired air-fuel ratio is usually a function of speed and load. Most of the system I've encountered have an open loop map which the system would switch to under certain conditions such as high speed cruising, WOT and other speed/load combinations which aren't encountered in drive cycle testing for emissions certification. Such maps are determined empirically as are all the aftermarket efi systems available here. > > | In fully tuned form > | they perform as well as speed-density systems and are more suitable for > | many production systems. Aftermarket EFI is a totally different matter. > | > | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. > | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. > > Why is this? > I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt with. Most of the racing work I've encountered utilize individual throttle bodies for each cylinder or rotor. They generally don't use a plenumn and the reverberations in the inlet tracts result in useless pulsating manifold pressure signals. The inlet is typically fed through a filter and air box which are considerably larger than OEM MAF sensor inlets. Certainly, the moving vane MAF sensors are notoriously unreliable and fragile. I only recommend MAP sensors for turbo applications and other systems with stable manifold pressure signals (ie OEM plenumns). Rotaries (especially extended ports, bridge ports and peripheral ports) don't tend to produce suitable MAP signals, even if they do have plenumns. Throttle position based load sensing has proven to be the best otherwise. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 01:25:04 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04129; Thu, 2 Mar 95 01:25:04 GMT Received: from core.bard.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04124; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:25:01 -0500 Received: (from hs283@xxx.9) id UAA21346; Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:22:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:22:44 -0500 (EST) From: Hans Steiner To: DIY EFI Cc: Josh Waltzer , Dawson McKinnon Morton Subject: Fight Govt. Censorship! (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>> Subject: URGENT PETITION -- Fight Govt. Censorship! >>> >>> >>> Hello everyone... >>> >>> A matter has come to my attention that is of the utmost importance to all >>> of us online. >>> >>> Simply put, a couple of senators have proposed a particularly >>> heinous piece of legislation titled the "Communications >>> Decency Act of 1995" (Senate Bill S. 314). Basically, the >>> bill would subject all forms of electronic communication -- >>> from public Internet postings to your most private email -- >>> to government censorship. The effects of the bill onto the >>> online industry would be devastating -- most colleges and >>> private companies (AOL, Compuserve, etc.) would probably have >>> to shut down or greatly restrict access, since they would be >>> held criminally liable for the postings and email of private >>> users. >>> >>> Obviously, this bill is designed to win votes for these senators >>> among those who are fearful of the internet and aren't big >>> fans of freedom of speech -- ie., those who are always trying to >>> censor "pornography" and dirty books and such. Given the >>> political climate in this country, this bill might just pass >>> unless the computer community demonstrates its strength as a >>> committed political force to be reckoned with. This, my friends, >>> is why I have filled your mailbox with this very long message. >>> >>> A petition, to be sent to Congress, the President, and the media, >>> has begun spreading through the Internet. It's easy to participate >>> and be heard -- to sign it, you simply follow the instructions >>> below -- which boil down to sending a quick email message to a >>> certain address. That's all it takes to let your voice be heard. >>> (You know, if the Internet makes democracy this accessible to the >>> average citizen, is it any wonder Congress wants to censor it?) >>> >>> Finally, PLEASE forward this message to all your friends online. >>> The more people sign the petition, the more the government will >>> get the message to back off the online community. We've been doing >>> fine without censorship until now -- let's show them we don't plan on >>> allowing them to start now. If you value your freedoms -- from >>> your right to publicly post a message on a worldwide forum to your >>> right to receive private email without the government censoring it -- >>> you need to take action NOW. It'll take fifteen minutes at the most, >>> a small sacrifice considering the issues at hand. Remember, the age >>> of fighting for liberty with muskets and shells is most likely over; >>> the time has come where the keyboard and the phone line will prove >>> mightier than the sword -- or the Senate, in this case. >>> >>> Yours in liberty, >>> >>> -don >>> >>> > >>> > Here's what you have to do to sign the petition: >>> > >>> > send an e-mail message to: S314-petition@xxx.com >>> > the message (NOT the subject heading) should read as follows: >>> > SIGNED >>> > eg. SIGNED lsewell@xxx.EDU Laura Sewell YES >>> > >>> > If you are interested in signing the petition, I would highly suggest >>> > investigating the details of the situation. You can find out more on >>> > the Web at http://www.wookie.net/~slowdog or in the newsgroup >>> > comp.org.eff.talk >>> > >>> > Save the 'net! If you won't do it for the sake of justice and the >>> > American way, DO IT FOR ME!! PLEASE!!!!!! >>> > >>> > --Laura >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 02:55:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04309; Thu, 2 Mar 95 02:55:27 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA04304; Wed, 1 Mar 95 21:55:18 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rk114-000D4fC; Wed, 1 Mar 95 20:53 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: NGK UEGO sensors To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 1 Mar 1995 20:53:26 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503020046.LAA09687@xxx.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 2, 95 11:46:39 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1244 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > I colleague of mine tested the viability of using individual NGK sensors > in each of eight exhaust runners in a 5 litre Group A Commodore. As part > of an initial test, he placed all eight sensors at the same point in an > exhaust stream only to find that they each required individual calibration > as a function of temperature (I'm not sure of the specific problem here). > Anyway, he later settled on using one sensor with individual exhaust > tappings from each of the runners. His concern was balancing the eight > cylinders and thus only the relative AFR was important. Ahhh, I forgot about that one. Each sensor is significantly different from any other given NGK sensor. You have to calibrate your test equipment to a given sensor... 8 sensors = 8 seperate calibrations. I talked to someone at Ford who has a big box he throws in the back seat that serves as an interface/calibration between the 4/6/8 sensors and his A/D stuff. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 13:52:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05055; Thu, 2 Mar 95 13:52:37 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05050; Thu, 2 Mar 95 08:52:32 -0500 Received: from pm1_06.magicnet.net (pm1_06.magicnet.net [204.96.116.56]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27649 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:05:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199503021405.JAA27649@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Mar 1995 08:39:07 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I think we are getting a little mixed up here! >> >> What is the mapping for? > >The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant >air-fuel ratio......... The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. The mapping is designed to take out the vagaries of the engine and other mechanical wobblies and get the air fuel ratio as close to stoichiometric as soon as possible. Then the slower reacting oxygen sensor is used to generate a trim signal to get the mixture to exactly stoichiometric under constant running conditions. "Learning" computers generate a second map from the oxygen sensors' data to create a faster and better approximation from the maps and then use the oxygen sensor to do the final correction. The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise through rush hour traffic. Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time the throttle is less than fully open. At fully open throttle the oxygen sensor is out of the loop and the system is said to be running open loop which means it is running on the map data only. This is preprogrammed in on dyno testing and usually gives best power and performance. >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. >> >> Why is this? >> > > >I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt >with......... Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know which row and column in the map to change. If you use a MAF sensor of any type then you have to define the load and this is less easy to reproduce on the dyno. Mapping is still fairly easy if you use the voltage output as a reference. Getting a stable airflow reading at a given RPM depends on throttle opening and dyno load. It is much easier to define the throttle opening and use the load to control the engine speed to where you want it. Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work adequately there as well. There is a school of thought which says they should be replaced because the mechanical flap across the air stream restricts the air flow and causes loss of power, but most racers are at full throttle anyway so it is kind of academic. Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 2 17:09:38 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05539; Thu, 2 Mar 95 17:09:38 GMT Received: from masscomp.westford.ccur.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05534; Thu, 2 Mar 95 12:09:34 -0500 Received: from moe by masscomp.westford.ccur.com via TCP/IP with SMTP id aa00909; 2 Mar 95 11:06 EST Received: from localhost by moe.westford.ccur.com via TCP/IP with SMTP (local) id aa15511; 2 Mar 95 11:04 EST To: Robert King Cc: DIY_EFI, Fordnatics Date: Thu, 02 Mar 95 11:04:28 EST From: Dan Malek Message-Id: <9503021104.aa15511@xxx.com> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 14:09:12 -0600 (CST) > From: Robert King > >> > From: Hans-Christoph >> > I woas wondering whether anyone has trying to soup up a Ford car with >> > EEC-IV and CFI...... >> >> Ford Motorsports sells a kit to convert it to mass air. > Are you sure you're not referring to the Motorsport kit to convert >from Speed Density SEFI (or "Multiport") to Mass Air SEFI? I've never >heard of a kit to convert from CFI to anything... There is no kit, but you can do it. You need a bunch of '87-up parts, some modification, and lots of fortitude. The basic idea is that you want to move to the SEFI parts, but getting there is hard. The things that make it difficult are battery on the right side, dual/single/dual exhaust, cruise control, and so on. You have to upgrade the exhaust because you need the dual HEGO sensors, which means a new transmission crossmember,....You need the EFI intake. Yes, it will simply bolt on the engine, but then you need a plan for all of the rest of the stuff, like moving the battery to the other side, and the wiring harness, and the vacuum solenoids, and the cruse control, and the throttle cables.... The electronics is the easy part. Just call me when you have all of the other mechanical stuff done. But seriously, this is one of those conversions where you must consider the "sell what you have, buy what you want" rule. -- Dan >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 00:02:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06723; Fri, 3 Mar 95 00:02:56 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06718; Thu, 2 Mar 95 19:02:53 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA04140; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:02:51 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 19:02:51 -0500 From: bowling@xxx.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503030002.AA04140@xxx.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: ECF Source Code Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Some people have asked for this, so here it is. The following non-ANSI "C" code will take horsepower readings and convert them to standard conditions (60 deg F, 29.92 "Hg, 0% humidity, and at sea-level). This is useful for comparing HP figures that are listed at non-standard-corrected values. It is also fun to play with to see how much the environment changes a given power (like humidity and elevation). To use, just compile it (I leave this step to you), and run. - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- ---------CUT-------CUT------CUT------CUT-----CUT------ /* To compile on most Unix machines: */ /* cc -o ect ect.c -lm */ /* (-lm is the math library for sqrt() */ #include #include /* Calculate Environmental Correction Factor (ECF) */ /* Standard Correction */ /* Definitions of Varibles */ /* temp -> Test temperature in degrees F */ /* bpress -> Test Barometric pressure in inches HG */ /* humid -> Relative humidity in percent */ /* elev -> Altitude in feet */ /* B. Bowling 1993 */ float ecf(temp, bpress, humid, elev) float temp, bpress, humid, elev; { float tcorr, xk, bpc, vp, phcorr, cf; /* Temperature correction (derate about 1% for every 10 deg increase) */ tcorr = sqrt((459.7+temp)/519.7); /* Correct barometric pressure for local elevation */ xk = 1.6e06*(1.+.0022222*(temp-32.)); bpc = -((30.48*elev-xk)/(30.48*elev+xk))*bpress; /* Calculate saturated vapor pressure */ vp = (humid/100.)*((((1.54854e-08*temp-9.76951e-07)*temp+ 1.26819e-04)*temp+3.85377e-04)*temp+5.38397e-02); phcorr = 29.92/(bpc-vp); /* Pressure+humidity correction */ cf = tcorr*phcorr; /* Total correction */ return(cf); } /* Correct Horsepower to Standard Conditions */ /* Definitions of Varibles */ /* hp_uncorr -> uncorrected horsepower */ /* ecf_value -> environmental correction */ /* stroke -> engine stroke in inches */ /* cid -> cubic inch displacement */ /* rpm -> revolutions per minute */ /* B. Bowling 1993 */ float correct_HP(hp_uncorr, ecf_value, stroke, cid, rpm) float hp_uncorr, ecf_value, stroke, cid, rpm; { float pspeed, fhp, hpcorr; /* Piston Speed in in/min */ pspeed = stroke * rpm / 6.0; /* Friction Horsepower */ fhp = 9.66083e-02+(1.04731e-05+1.13813e-08*pspeed)*pspeed; fhp = cid * fhp * rpm / 5252.1; hpcorr=(hp_uncorr - (ecf_value - 1.0) * fhp) / ecf_value; if(hpcorr < 0.0) hpcorr = 0.0; /* Cannot allow negative */ return(hpcorr); } /* Test routine */ /* Bowling '95 */ void main() { float temp_in, bpress_in, humid_in, elev_in; float stroke_in, cid_in, rpm_in; float ecf_gen; float hp_in, hp_out; printf("=== HP Standard Correction - By Bowling ===\n\n"); /* Enter inputs for ECT computation */ printf("Enter test temperature (degrees F): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &temp_in); printf("Enter test barometric pressure (inches HG): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &bpress_in); printf("Enter test humidity in percent: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &humid_in); printf("Enter test altitude (feet): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &elev_in); /* Generate Enviromental Correction Factor */ ecf_gen = ecf(temp_in, bpress_in, humid_in, elev_in); printf("** Computed Correction Factor -> %f\n", ecf_gen); /* Enter engine-specific values */ printf("Enter engine stroke (inches): "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &stroke_in); printf("Enter engine cid in in3: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &cid_in); /* Loop continuously over all desired corrections to perform */ /* Enter a zero for RPM or HP to exit */ while(1) { printf("--------- HP Correction --------------\n"); printf("Enter engine rpm: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &rpm_in); if(rpm_in <= 0.0) exit(0); printf("Enter engine horsepower: "); fflush(stdout); scanf("%f", &hp_in); if(hp_in <= 0.0) exit(0); hp_out = correct_HP(hp_in, ecf_gen, stroke_in, cid_in, rpm_in); printf("** Computed Corrected Horsepower -> %f **\n", hp_out); } } >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 02:27:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06964; Fri, 3 Mar 95 02:27:17 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06959; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:27:06 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA02630 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:26:59 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:25:57 +1100 Message-Id: <199503030225.NAA10664@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:25:56 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503021405.JAA27649@xxx.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 2, 95 08:39:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6857 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter, > > I think we are getting a little mixed up here! > > >> > >> What is the mapping for? > > > >The mapping is required since the user will not usually desire a constant > >air-fuel ratio......... > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a > uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. ... Thankyou for your *amazing* insight. Let me explain a couple of things. When I stated *aftermarket efi*, I was referring to non OEM efi systems. Such systems are designed and operated with performance, drivability, efficiency and very occassionally emissions in mind. I have never encountered an aftermarket efi system fitted to a car with a catalytic converter. Also note that the aftermarket market that I am dealing with here in Australia has much less strict emissions laws. Cats became manditory in 1986 and pre June 76 there was almost no restrictions (apart from charcoal canisters). Given the average age of local vehicles (10-15 years) you may start to understand the above priorities. > > The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through > and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is > usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise > through rush hour traffic. Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying > stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time > the throttle is less than fully open. At fully open throttle the oxygen > sensor is out of the loop and the system is said to be running open loop > which means it is running on the map data only. This is preprogrammed in on > dyno testing and usually gives best power and performance. I agree here, but note that some systems (eg Ford Falcon EA26-EA77 EECIV and EECV) also run open loop during idle (lambda = 0.9) and while cruising (lambda ~ 1.22). WOT can be as low as lambda = 0.85 for peak performance and engine longevity. Engine warm up is another matter entirely. Current laws state that the closed loop control has to kick in after 20-30 seconds (depending on the country and state) and before this time generally run quite rich. The aim is to reduce the high concentrations of pollutants which are produced in concentrated city environments. > >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. > >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. > >> > >> Why is this? > >> > > > > > >I suppose I should define the 'serious performance work' that I've dealt > >with......... > > Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and > engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know > which row and column in the map to change. If you use a MAF sensor of any > type then you have to define the load and this is less easy to reproduce on > the dyno. Mapping is still fairly easy if you use the voltage output as a > reference. Getting a stable airflow reading at a given RPM depends on > throttle opening and dyno load. It is much easier to define the throttle > opening and use the load to control the engine speed to where you want it. ????? I'm not sure who is getting mixed up here. Map based system are much easier to set up (on the road or dyno) than throttle position systems. There is a much simpler relationship between MAP readings and engine load during steady state operation. Basically, assuming constant volumetric efficiency (and remember, I'm talking about the initial stages of open loop tuning), the air flow into an engine per cycle is closely proportional to the manifold pressure. Map based systems also automatically compensate for different ambient pressures. The main correction is for inlet air temp. For fine tuning (dyno work), it's just as easy to set the engine speed where required (assuming you have a decent dyno) and adjust the throttle position to give the required manifold pressure (vacuum). I don't understand how Peter finds this any more complicated than setting a throttle position. MAP readings are easily reproducable and actually mean something as opposed to a voltage output from a throttle positon pot. The maps generated using MAP based load are better in that each point is relatively representative of a speed/load combination. This is a bit messy to explain, but as an example, consider the table values for the 2000 rpm operation condition. On a throttle opening scale of 1 to 10, the map values at throttle openings 1-3 will mean something while those above will all be the same, ie the opening the throttle past a certain point makes very little difference to the air flow at this speed. Throttle based maps tend to have a lot of detail squashed into small regions of the map and thus suffer from resolution problems. Throttle position is used as a measurement of load where there isn't a stable or wide ranging manifold pressure signal to use. (Refer to the examples I posted yesterday.) The feed forward nature of the measured variable also allows faster control system response. Throttle position is useless for turbo systems as the assumption of constant upstream inlet pressure is no longer true. > Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there > would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They > are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work > adequately there as well. I disagree here. Ask any Jaguar mechanic about the reliability of the Lucas (Bosch) moving vane MAF meters fitted to XK engined XJ6s. The greatest improvement I could have made to the Jag FI system I fitted to my previously carbed XK4.2 was to ditch the air flow meter and use a MAP sensed load system. It performs much better as well. I have also encountered faulty Bosch moving vane meters on other brands. Backfires through the inlet can destroy such sensors very easily. > There is a school of thought which says they > should be replaced because the mechanical flap across the air stream > restricts the air flow and causes loss of power, but most racers are at full > throttle anyway so it is kind of academic. The mechanical flap is not the restriction but the overall cross sectional area. > Peter Wales Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 02:29:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA06979; Fri, 3 Mar 95 02:29:24 GMT Received: from jeeves.egr.msu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA06974; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:29:21 -0500 Received: from yew (yew.egr.msu.edu) by egr.msu.edu (5.0/1.34) id AA15678; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:07 -0500 Received: by yew (5.0/SMI-4.0) id AA00501; Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:11 -0500 Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:30:11 -0500 From: burkdani@xxx.edu Message-Id: <9503030230.AA00501@yew> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Content-Length: 287 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI You know, I was just thinking about that rule... I was considering the conversion of my '84 Trans am to EFI but in retrospect I think it will be cheaper to sell the car and buy an '89 model with the 5.7l tpi powertrain. I can then modify with much more results for the dollar. --drb >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 03:30:36 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07121; Fri, 3 Mar 95 03:30:36 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07116; Thu, 2 Mar 95 22:30:31 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA12724; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:29:49 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950303142926.416; 03 Mar 95 14:30:20 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:29:21 EST-11 Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. This allows the catalytic converters to work correctly by providing a > uniform gas mixture in the exhaust. You are assuming that everyone HAS to run at catalytic converter. This is not true. > > Again Robert is getting mixed up. The reason racers use throttle angle and > engine speed is that it is very easy to set that up on a dyno and then know > which row and column in the map to change. Engines with large valve overlap and / or individual throttle butterflys have very low average MAP values (ie very little depression below ambient). They exhibit spikes in the MAP for the induction events: I believe you may be able to use the peak value of the MAP signal but throttle position is generally used. Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 03:41:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07141; Fri, 3 Mar 95 03:41:44 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07136; Thu, 2 Mar 95 22:41:25 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rkOD8-000CwxC; Thu, 2 Mar 95 21:39 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 2 Mar 1995 21:39:25 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503021405.JAA27649@xxx.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 2, 95 08:39:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1501 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales writes: > > The user *will* require a constant air fuel ratio! Stoichiometric to be > exact. You only want stoichiometric A/F under conditions you see on the FTP. Non emissions applications should never be running at stoich (a point which I've argued with several F-SAE judges :( ). > The EPA defined a test schedule which each manufacturer has to go through > and the total emissions allowed during this test are defined. The test is > usually very low throttle and accelerations, I suppose typical of a cruise > through rush hour traffic. The FTP-75 is broken up into 3 parts (not sure the proper name for each part, we called 'em Bag 1, Bag 2, & Bag 3). Two hot starts and one cold start. Both city/traffic and highway driving. Supposedly the test was developed by following some EPA employee on his trip from home to work and back to home. > Thus the manufacturer has the option of staying > stoichiometric just in this schedule, or as most have done, all of the time > the throttle is less than fully open. My 91 GMC 2500 with TBI350 kicked into power enrichment mode at 40% throttle or 3400rpm. Power enrichment mode goes open loop, turns off the EGR solenoid, and grabs desired A/F from a lookup table. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 14:11:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07891; Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:11:33 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07886; Fri, 3 Mar 95 09:11:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_02.magicnet.net (pm1_02.magicnet.net [204.96.116.52]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA22424 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:24:44 -0500 Message-Id: <199503031424.JAA22424@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 03 Mar 1995 08:57:59 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Things are getting a little complex here due to the size of the postings, so lets try and remove some of the flotsam. >Thankyou for your *amazing* insight. > >Let me explain a couple of things. When I stated *aftermarket efi*, I was..... ok, you dont want stoichiometric in Australia, its the law in the US and in England they still sell leaded gas! The question was why use mapping and I hope it has been answered. >> >> | MAP and MAF sensors are both useless for much serious performance work. >> >> | Throttle position is the only reliable method in such cases. >> >> >> >> Why is this? >> >> >For fine tuning (dyno work), it's just as easy to set the engine speed where >required (assuming you have a decent dyno) and adjust the throttle position >to give the required manifold pressure (vacuum). I don't understand how >Peter finds this any more complicated than setting a throttle position. >MAP readings are easily reproducable and actually mean something as >opposed to a voltage output from a throttle positon pot............. First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. >> Lastly, flap air sensors are not notoriously unreliable. If they were there >> would be ten trillion cars breaking down every minute because of them. They >> are very reliable in service and if used correctly in race engines they work >> adequately there as well. > >I disagree here. Ask any Jaguar mechanic about the reliability of the Lucas >(Bosch) moving vane MAF meters fitted to XK engined XJ6s........ Lucas and Jaguar!!!! Hardly the definition of reliability. Try asking a BMW mechanic. And before anyone gets upset over me panning two English products.... I am English (hangs head in shame) Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 18:08:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08825; Fri, 3 Mar 95 18:08:08 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08816; Fri, 3 Mar 95 13:08:04 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17619; Fri, 3 Mar 95 10:06:20 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNP1QNFAF400FGGM@xxx.COM>; Fri, 03 Mar 1995 10:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14676; Fri, 3 Mar 95 13:08:46 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950303130459.480; 03 Mar 95 13:07:17 +0500 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:04:29 ET From: John T Stein Subject: How is MAT data used? To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI By way of introduction (since that seems to be de rigueur for initial list postings) I am an electrical engineer dealing primarily with analog circuit design. I can possibly contribute to this list in the areas of sensor signal processing and EMI management. My hands-on involvement with cars is considerably less intense than most of you, I'm sort of a "'shade-tree mechanic with an oscilloscope" but I AM interested in the technology. In the past I have seen numerous postings to this list that discuss how data from throttle position sensor, battery voltage, etc. are employed to modify the baseline injector pulse width. Could someone please explain how MAT data is used? Also, on a "learning" ECM such as is used on my 2.5 L GM engine, are the baseline pulse widths typically altered based on the long-term readings of MAT?? >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 3 20:24:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09156; Fri, 3 Mar 95 20:24:37 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09133; Fri, 3 Mar 95 15:24:33 -0500 Received: from dialup-2-163.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:22:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 14:22:49 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17820.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter wildly guessed: >First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. >It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than throttle position, if it can be measured. For a given throttle setting you could have a wide range of manifold air densities. For a given MAP the intake density is pretty well nailed down (and even better with an ideal gas correction from the MAT). In fact, you could do a simple control without a map. Just make fuel injection pulse width a linear function of MAP. It's like a one-hole map. If you really wanted to, you could estimate rho = P/(R*T) with the help of a MAT sensor, too. (This assumed that volumetric efficiency doesn't change with speed, but a simple 3rd or 4th order V.E. vs. RPM curve would probably correct for that, too.) Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing guys. Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 4 03:46:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09906; Sat, 4 Mar 95 03:46:16 GMT Received: from maxwell.ee.washington.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09901; Fri, 3 Mar 95 22:46:14 -0500 Received: by maxwell.ee.washington.edu (1.37.109.4/UW-NDC Revision: 2.26 ) id AA25917; Fri, 3 Mar 95 19:46:14 -0800 From: Mike Gruber Message-Id: <9503040346.AA25917@xxx.edu> Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 3 Mar 95 19:46:14 PST In-Reply-To: <17820.fran0054@xxx.edu>; from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 3, 95 2:22 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a > strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing > guys. > > Later, > Matt Truer words were never spoken!! -- Mike Gruber '88 Supercharged MR2 (ASP) '72 Datsun 510 (In progress ... perpetually!) >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 03:01:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15739; Mon, 6 Mar 95 03:01:06 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15734; Sun, 5 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9503060301.AA15734@xxx.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: [comment] resell of DIY_EFI material Date: Sun, 05 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just got back after being out of town for a week.... In message <"2476*rodb@xxx.ca"@MHS> , you write: | This brings up an interesting point. What is the status of the info on | this list? I had been assuming that it was more or less public but | that it would be unethical to use it for profit. Comments? John? I support this position, but I know of no way to enforce it. I have thought about things like a GNU or BSD type of license and copyright, but I'm not a lawyer and don't know what kind of modifications would be needed for a project like this. Perhaps others have experience in this area? | I've got a MC68332 FI design in the works that I was planning on sharing | with the list on a non-commericial basis. I'd be more hesitant about | sharing it if somebody could take it and profit from it. We don't want | to end up being [... an] r & d lab [for anyone] !!!! I personally would like to see an EFI system that is 100% open to the public. I would would not object to members selling parts/kits (or group buys of parts) as long as prices are not inflated for personal gain. I suppose this in itself could be a problem. If we permit the selling of any one item it would become more difficult to stop marketing in general. This list belongs to all of us and the direction in which it goes is *only* controlled by the good judgment of each poster. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7292 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 13:45:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16713; Mon, 6 Mar 95 13:45:15 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16708; Mon, 6 Mar 95 08:45:12 -0500 Received: from pm1_04.magicnet.net (pm1_04.magicnet.net [204.96.116.54]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA14103; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:00:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199503061400.JAA14103@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 08:31:16 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. >>It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. > Robert proposed Throttle position, I countered with MAP. Now you throw in your 1c worth (it isn't worth 2c thats for sure) >Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than >throttle position, if it can be measured. >Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a >strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing >guys. > >Later, >Matt Things like personal insults are better left to children Now try and be a little motre professional please Peter >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 16:17:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17321; Mon, 6 Mar 95 16:17:18 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17316; Mon, 6 Mar 95 11:17:15 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 95 10:15:49 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:15:48 -0600 (CST) From: Matthew L Franklin Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503061400.JAA14103@xxx.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts. On Mon, 6 Mar 1995, Peter Wales wrote: > > >>First the threottle position is the correct way, then the MAP sensor. > >>It seems that Robert is going to be right no matter what the answer is. > > > Robert proposed Throttle position, I countered with MAP. Now you throw in > your 1c worth (it isn't worth 2c thats for sure) > > >Robert is quite correct here, as usual. MAP is far more useful than > >throttle position, if it can be measured. > > > >Things like this are probably better left to mechanical engineers with a > >strong EE emphasis (or EE's with a strong ME emphasis), and not marketing > >guys. > > > >Later, > >Matt > > Things like personal insults are better left to children > > Now try and be a little motre professional please > > > Peter > > > >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 6 17:34:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17759; Mon, 6 Mar 95 17:34:09 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17754; Mon, 6 Mar 95 12:34:05 -0500 Received: from pm1_01.magicnet.net (pm1_01.magicnet.net [204.96.116.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18186; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:49:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199503061749.MAA18186@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 06 Mar 1995 12:20:07 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Aftermarket EFI, speed density etc. Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Matt wrote: >Sorry, sometimes the truth hurts. No need to apologise. If it hurts that much just keep your head down Peter >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 03:01:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20140; Tue, 7 Mar 95 03:01:48 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20135; Mon, 6 Mar 95 22:01:45 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@xxx.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:01:42 -0500 From: gt0035b@xxx.edu Message-Id: <199503070301.WAA05682@xxx.edu> Subject: Re: Intro - and question To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 22:01:42 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199502271336.AA19423@xxx. Voss" at Feb 27, 95 08:37:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 806 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Andrew H. Voss wrote > That's why the Saab units currently use CD ignition. We are developing > systems with inductive ignition coils and coil redesign has been a big part > of the effort. The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to > extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. Henry Sommer | gt0035b@xxx.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology _________________________________________________________________________ Formula SAE Mailing list | send mail to fsae-request@xxx.edu fsae@xxx.edu | with the subject of subscribe and no body >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 04:18:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20221; Tue, 7 Mar 95 04:18:21 GMT Received: from scylla.cis.ufl.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20216; Mon, 6 Mar 95 23:18:17 -0500 Received: by charybdis.prl.ufl.edu (8.6.8.1/1.34) id XAA01009; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:24:25 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:24:25 -0500 From: kem@xxx.edu (Kelly Murray) Message-Id: <199503070424.XAA01009@xxx.edu> To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503060301.AA15734@xxx.edu> (message from John S Gwynne on Sun, 05 Mar 95 22:01:03 -0500) Subject: Re: [comment] resell of DIY_EFI material Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > | This brings up an interesting point. What is the status of the info on > | this list? I had been assuming that it was more or less public but > | that it would be unethical to use it for profit. Comments? John? > > I support this position, but I know of no way to enforce > it. I have thought about things like a GNU or BSD type > of license and copyright, but I'm not a lawyer and don't > know what kind of modifications would be needed for a > project like this. Perhaps others have experience in this area? You must decide if the public benefits from commercial products. If they do, then releasing information to the "public" includes commercial companies. If you believe either (1) all companies are evil; or (2) Only YOU know which are evil and which are not, then you must keep ownership of your information. -Kelly Murray >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 04:45:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20414; Tue, 7 Mar 95 04:45:42 GMT Received: from acmey.gatech.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20409; Mon, 6 Mar 95 23:45:40 -0500 Received: (from gt0035b@xxx.edu; Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:45:37 -0500 From: gt0035b@xxx.edu Message-Id: <199503070445.XAA22076@xxx.edu> Subject: Re: hall effect To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 6 Mar 1995 23:45:36 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <0098A030.D4EE96A0.104@xxx.ca" at Jan 5, 95 02:26:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1013 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Y'all I saw this add and it reminded about this thread. It came out of the Socioty of Automtive engineers magazine Automotive engineering. There are lots of adds in there about sensors ect. I comes along with membership. Call 1 800 TEAM SAE for details all i know is that it is 10$ for students. Title: Custom Hall Effect & VR sensors. Picture: a gear with a tube shaped sensor with a two wire plug. Company: American Electronic Components Inc. (219) 264-1116 Right next to it is an add that goes title: DYNACUBE Text: 6 degrees of freedom, compact 1.25" cube, vehicle dynamic control, crash testing, airbag deployment Company: ATA sensors (505) 244-0373 Henry Sommer | gt0035b@xxx.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | ? | FSAE-request@xxx.edu >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 13:00:34 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21016; Tue, 7 Mar 95 13:00:34 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21011; Tue, 7 Mar 95 08:00:31 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA17384 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:59:57 -0500 Received: from koadpc43.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA20997 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:59:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199503071259.AA20997@xxx.com> X-Sender: c23ahv@xxx.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 08:01:44 -0500 To: DIY_EFI From: c23ahv@xxx. Voss) Subject: Re: Intro - and question Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >> The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to >> extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. > > Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little >I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. >It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. > > >Henry Sommer | gt0035b@xxx.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology You're right. it does take a lot of testing to get the info out of the signal. Mecel is currently working on knock detection, cam position detection, misfire, preignition, and air/fuel ratio detection. Huge efforts have been undertaken by people in universities, Mecel, and Delco to try to realize these functions and good results have been achieved. I can't provide any details, unfortunately, but I also don't think a person with a soldering iron can get any useful signal out of a spark plug. The benefits to a car company are evident, especially if the individual sensors mentioned above can be deleted from the system. That's why we are working so hard on this. Andy Voss Advanced Powertrain Systems c23ahv@xxx.com Delco Electronics Corp. (317)451-0415 GM:8-322-0415 "If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got." - Unknown >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 17:05:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21847; Tue, 7 Mar 95 17:05:05 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA21842; Tue, 7 Mar 95 12:05:02 -0500 Received: from pm1_12.magicnet.net (pm1_12.magicnet.net [204.96.116.62]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14977; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:20:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199503071720.MAA14977@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 11:50:55 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Knock sensor control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I remember reading something about this new system some time ago. As I remember, immediately after the ignition pulse, the ignition system puts a voltage (I think about 100v) across the plug. The gas inside the combustiuon chamber is ionised and so a current will flow. The current indicates the status of the combustion. I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Peter Wales At 08:01 AM 3/7/95 -0500, DIY_EFI@xxx.edu wrote: > >>> The signal contains a lot of info, but it isn't easy to >>> extract it from each firing at 5000 rpm. >> >> Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little >>I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. >>It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. >> >> >>Henry Sommer | gt0035b@xxx.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology > >You're right. it does take a lot of testing to get the info out of the >signal. Mecel is currently working on knock detection, cam position >detection, misfire, preignition, and air/fuel ratio detection. Huge efforts >have been undertaken by people in universities, Mecel, and Delco to try to >realize these functions and good results have been achieved. I can't >provide any details, unfortunately, but I also don't think a person with a >soldering iron can get any useful signal out of a spark plug. The benefits >to a car company are evident, especially if the individual sensors mentioned >above can be deleted from the system. That's why we are working so hard on >this. > >Andy Voss >Advanced Powertrain Systems c23ahv@xxx.com >Delco Electronics Corp. (317)451-0415 GM:8-322-0415 > >"If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always >got." - Unknown > > > > >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 19:15:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23201; Tue, 7 Mar 95 19:15:33 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23196; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:15:29 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA07769; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:15:24 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA17731; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:15:22 -0600 Message-Id: <9503071915.AA17731@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Intro - and question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 95 22:01:42 EST." <199503070301.WAA05682@xxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 13:15:15 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Just what is the information and how do you get it. The little > I've heard about the Sabb system is that they use it for a knock sensor. > It sounds like it would take alot of testing to know what the output means. Sounds like it would take some serious DSP horsepower in order to interpret the waveforms you were seeing. In some flourescent lamp applications, they can tell various things about the gas pressure, type, etc. by analyzing the current waveform produced by the drive circuit. It could be a logical progression to apply the same technology to the automotive world. It would take a good deal of testing to find out what the waveform would look like under different conditions. Seems technically feasable, though. Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 20:10:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23723; Tue, 7 Mar 95 20:10:40 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23718; Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:10:24 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-129.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:08:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:07:51 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <19191.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI P. Wales wrote: >I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if >it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Yes, one of the things they looked for was an oscillation in the ionization signal. After a hard knock, the pressure waves bounce around in the combustion chamber. There are several modes of this oscillation so you'd have to consult an accoustitian for advice here. The ionization current oscillates at the same frequency. My memory is cloudy here but I think there may have been a little problem with it. It went something like if the spark plug is off to the side of the chamber the knock ion signal quality would be good, but typically the best location for combustion initiation is as near the center of the chamber as possible. And if the plug were at the center the ion current signal quality would be poor. I read that CAT uses a seperate ionization gap near the "end-gas" of one of their lean burn natural gas models to estimate flame arrival time. The "end-gas" is just the part of the charge farthest from the spark plug which burns last. They would adjust the fueling rate depending on the flame arrival time. My memory is cloudy here, too, so call your CAT dealer for a brochure. (Maybe it was Cummins?) Another use for ionization gaps is in the exhaust port (yes I'm not kidding). This can be used to sense incipient misfire. When a hydrocarbon burns, ions are formed in the combustion products. The concentrations decay with time. If the port concentrations are low, it means that the combustion was completed quite a bit earlier. If they are high, it means that the combustion just finished or is still occuring. Basically, if the ion signal is high it means that the flame speed is slow and in danger of misfiring. (Of course, 100% misfire would give zero signal.) This probably adds too much expense and complication to a commercial application, but it is fun to tinker with. A non-resistor spark plug and the right biasing circuit (100V is great, but 15V workes fine) can be put together for less than $10. There have been a few papers on this. If anyone is really dying to know, I can look them up. One problem that I had was that if the plug got too hot, its ceramic starts to get a bit too conductive. Its conductivity approaches and may exceed that of the ionized gas, completely saturating the ionization current sensor. Sorry for rambling so long, but I at home with a cold and have nothing else to do. Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 20:42:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23980; Tue, 7 Mar 95 20:42:49 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA23975; Tue, 7 Mar 95 15:42:45 -0500 Received: from dialup-5-129.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:08:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 14:07:51 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <19191.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI P. Wales wrote: >I assume if it pinged, the combustion ionisation will be different than if >it fired normally. Exactly how, I don't know. Interesting subject though. Yes, one of the things they looked for was an oscillation in the ionization signal. After a hard knock, the pressure waves bounce around in the combustion chamber. There are several modes of this oscillation so you'd have to consult an accoustitian for advice here. The ionization current oscillates at the same frequency. My memory is cloudy here but I think there may have been a little problem with it. It went something like if the spark plug is off to the side of the chamber the knock ion signal quality would be good, but typically the best location for combustion initiation is as near the center of the chamber as possible. And if the plug were at the center the ion current signal quality would be poor. I read that CAT uses a seperate ionization gap near the "end-gas" of one of their lean burn natural gas models to estimate flame arrival time. The "end-gas" is just the part of the charge farthest from the spark plug which burns last. They would adjust the fueling rate depending on the flame arrival time. My memory is cloudy here, too, so call your CAT dealer for a brochure. (Maybe it was Cummins?) Another use for ionization gaps is in the exhaust port (yes I'm not kidding). This can be used to sense incipient misfire. When a hydrocarbon burns, ions are formed in the combustion products. The concentrations decay with time. If the port concentrations are low, it means that the combustion was completed quite a bit earlier. If they are high, it means that the combustion just finished or is still occuring. Basically, if the ion signal is high it means that the flame speed is slow and in danger of misfiring. (Of course, 100% misfire would give zero signal.) This probably adds too much expense and complication to a commercial application, but it is fun to tinker with. A non-resistor spark plug and the right biasing circuit (100V is great, but 15V workes fine) can be put together for less than $10. There have been a few papers on this. If anyone is really dying to know, I can look them up. One problem that I had was that if the plug got too hot, its ceramic starts to get a bit too conductive. Its conductivity approaches and may exceed that of the ionized gas, completely saturating the ionization current sensor. Sorry for rambling so long, but I at home with a cold and have nothing else to do. Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 7 21:29:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24152; Tue, 7 Mar 95 21:29:30 GMT Received: from dt.uleth.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24147; Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:29:24 -0500 Received: by hg.uleth.ca (MX V4.1 VAX) id 1030; Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:31:11 MST Date: Tue, 07 Mar 1995 14:31:10 MST From: furgason@xxx.ca To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <0098D020.8E490260.1030@xxx.ca> Subject: Knock Knock Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI This idea of using the spark plug to say something about combustion comes from analytical chemistry. Putting a DC potential arcoss the spark plug is exactly the way a flame ionization detector in a gas chromatograph (GC) generates a signal. A GC depends on travel time in it's column to identify the chemical compounds it is detecting. In a cylinder (I'm guessing here) ions from various chemical species may be produced at different times depending on the state of the combustion process. If one can resolve the signals in time it would be possible to say much more about the combustion process than simply if it was knocking or not. Dan Furgason University of Lethbridge Physics Department P.S. - I really like the conversation on this list. I am learning a great deal and having fun at the same time. My students will be the beneficiaries of much of the information I gather here. I hope we can continue without the politics that have been present lately. It would be a real shame to have a group like this one come apart. >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 00:20:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24597; Wed, 8 Mar 95 00:20:19 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24592; Tue, 7 Mar 95 19:20:16 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA05381 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:33:34 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA15073; Tue, 7 Mar 95 16:21:50 PST From: nasa@xxx.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9503080021.AA15073@xxx.mil> Subject: more questions about details To: diy_efi (diy_efi) Date: Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:21:49 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 575 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI First I want to thank everyone that responed to my last post for information. A few more questions: What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from: Manifold absolute pressure - MAP Throttle Position switch - TPS Engine rpm Engine coolant temperature Manifold air temperature - MAT Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC Idle air control - IAC (?) Ignition voltage and for: Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda Also what whould "SDF or staged SDF injector firing" mean? Again; all assistance is appreciated cat >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 04:55:27 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25037; Wed, 8 Mar 95 04:55:27 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25032; Tue, 7 Mar 95 23:55:23 -0500 Received: from dialup-4-41.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 7 Mar 95 22:53:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 7 Mar 95 22:53:30 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <16883.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >levels involved? I'm looking for something that will indicate a "lean" >condition faster than an egt thermocouple. Am I correct in deducing that >a lean mixture will burn slower, thus higher ion currents will flow? How >about applying this to detonation detection? The SAE paper I'm thinking about was written by Brehob in '89 or '90. I built the sensor for that QUAD-4 based on the schematics from A Cambridge PhD thesis. I think the author's name was Peter Hand, but I'm not certain. He used 10 volts, if I remember rightly. I used 15 volts because that's what I had, and it helped the signal to noise ratio.. To get yourself playing with a real system as soon as posible, I would suggest the following. I hope I can remember. Get a voltmeter, 1 to 10 M-Ohm impedance. Get a 9 volt battery. Connect the one terminal of the nine volt to one leg of the DVM. Connect the other leg of the battery to one side of the gas to be sensed. Connect the free leg of the DVM to the other side of the gas gap. Then pass this gap through a hydrocarbon flame. Add salt to the flame to watch the ion concentrations increase. The 9 volt battery is your bias voltage, the internal impedance of the voltmeter is your current sensing resistor, the "ideal DVM" measures the voltage drop across the 10 Meg. It sounds really bad, but it works well. I think the current ranges from pico amps to nano amps. Maybe the ASCI gram will clear it up?? |-------- DVM----9VOLTBATTERY---------| | | | | |-------------> GAP <---------------| \/\/\/\/\/ FLAME It really works. A scope may be substituted for the DVM. On the engine version, I had mega-trouble with 60 Hz noise (on the dyno in the lab) when I used an off-the-shelf 15 Volt supply, but a big metal box to shield the supply from the amplification seemed to help a lot. Brehob used it to sense EGR induced misfire while Hand used it to sense lean misfire. Have fun... Matt >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 14:49:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25772; Wed, 8 Mar 95 14:49:06 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25767; Wed, 8 Mar 95 09:49:02 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA10624; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:05:16 -0500 Message-Id: <199503081505.KAA10624@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 09:34:49 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi (diy_efi) From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: more questions about details Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 04:21 PM 3/7/95 -0800, DIY_EFI@xxx.edu wrote: >First I want to thank everyone that responed to my last post for information. > >A few more questions: > >What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from:..... >cat Can I recommend the Bosch Automotive handbook 3rd edition which is just recently published and avaiiable from the SAE for the princely sum of less than $30. It will answer all of these questions, and 10,000,000 more. It has 800+ pages of pure information and is an excellent reference work for all matters automotive, from first principles to the mathematical equations. Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 16:04:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26154; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:04:18 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26149; Wed, 8 Mar 95 11:04:14 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA25077; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:04:11 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA19314; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:04:10 -0600 Message-Id: <9503081604.AA19314@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: more questions about details In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Mar 95 16:21:49 PST." <9503080021.AA15073@xxx.mil> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 10:04:04 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > A few more questions: > > What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM What type of ECM? GM? GM What? > > Manifold absolute pressure - MAP >From the GM stuff I've played with, there are two types of sensors- 1 ATM and 2 ATM. The 1 ATM goes from 0 - 100 kPa, the 2 ATM goes from 0 - 190. I don't remember the voltage ranges offhand. > Throttle Position switch - TPS Just a pot with a 1k pullup in the ECM. A/D is on a 5.1 volt reference. > Engine rpm Determined from the pulse width of the REF signal, which is either based off a crank trigger or a distributor pickup. > Engine coolant temperature The ECMs I've seen have the ability to switch between a 348 ohm and ~3k internal pullup. The sensor used in not linear, so an internal translation table is required in the PROM. > Manifold air temperature - MAT Another resistive sensor with a 1k internal pullup. 8-bit A/D again, too. > Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC Black Magic. :) The ones I've looked at have a circuit on a ceramic substrate in the MEMCAL that does the filtering/level triggering and then sends an EST signal to the timing logic. If you're looking for a knock indication, watch EST. > Idle air control - IAC (?) Stepper motor! Tables in the PROM determine the output to the stepper. > Ignition voltage Nothing in the PROM determines this, from what I can see. > and for: > > Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda Gonna have to be a little more specific here. The PROM holds a multitude of VE and AFR Tables/Constants. Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 18:14:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27064; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:14:42 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27058; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:14:23 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05680; Wed, 8 Mar 95 10:12:34 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNW1EO3BG000HWNY@xxx.COM>; Wed, 08 Mar 1995 10:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16023; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:14:40 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950308131108.448; 08 Mar 95 13:13:11 +0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:07:08 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: more questions about details To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On 3-7 Chris Adam Thomas wrote: > A few more questions: > > What is the usual form and typical range of sensor values input to the ECM from: > > Manifold absolute pressure - MAP > > Throttle Position switch - TPS > > Engine rpm > > Engine coolant temperature > > Manifold air temperature - MAT > > Electronic spark control (knock sensor?) - ESC > > Idle air control - IAC (?) > > Ignition voltage > > and for: > > Stoichiometric & Linear Lambda > > > Also what whould "SDF or staged SDF injector firing" mean? > > Again; all assistance is appreciated > > > cat > Speaking only for General Motors engine controllers, these ECMs power most of their sensors with +5 volts, as a result: (1) MAP ranges from about 0.8 volts to 5. Some GM MAP sensors produce increasing voltage with increasing vacuum, some with increasing pressure. Output voltage is an essentially linear function of vacuum/pressure. Since the ECM can monitor the (nominally) 5 volt supply it "knows" what one end of this function is, the initial accuracy and stability of the sensor establishes the other end.. (2) TPS is a potentiometer hung between the +5 volts and ground. WOT corresponds to ~ 5volts, closed throttle about 0. The ECM calibrates itself to the closed throttle level by looking at RPM, deducing when the engine is at warm idle, and noting the TPS voltage. (3) MAT and Coolant temperature sensors are negative temperature coefficient thermistors. The thermistor is part of a voltage divider which is "powered" by the +5 volts from the ECM. The voltage at the node in the middle of the divider is monitored by the ECM. I can look up the resistance vs. temperature characteristic for the thermistor if you're interested, it is highly nonlinear. (4) If you've been following the ongoing discussion re. knock sensors you know they are essentially piezoelectric accelerometers which "listen" for the sound of knocking. Their output is not directly useable and some form of charge-to-voltage signal processing is used before the signal is supplied to the ECM. If I remember correctly the signal which eventually goes to the ECM is nominally 5 volts and is negative-going with "knock". (5) IAC -- These are outputs from the ECM not inputs to it. They go to a stepper motor which controls a path for idle air to the engine. >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 18:30:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27154; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:30:13 GMT Received: from geni10.arl.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27149; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:29:54 -0500 Received: by lamp0.arl.army.mil (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA20918; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:51 -0500 Message-Id: <9503081829.AA20918@xxx.mil> X-Sender: faustini@xxx.mil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: faustini@xxx.mil (Lou Faustini) Subject: Pop-Quiz... X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ok, here are some nagging question I want to share.. Are the MAP and MAF sensors that are mass-produced by auto makers all calibrated the same? (among the same manufacturer) More specifically, can I take my MAP sensor calibration data from a Mustang and expect to see the same " cal curve" on an Escort's MAP sensor? The -sensible- answer, at least for some sensors, is "Yes Lou, they are all alike..." If I was a design engineer for Ford I would insist on using all the same MAP sensors across the board for two reasons. 1- I could make 20 million of the exact-same type, keeping tooling costs low. 2- It would make my dyno-testing much easier, by establishing company standard MAP data. Less confused engineers that way. I have a Chiltons manual that implies that all Ford MAP's are the same. It also implies that the MAT and ACT, and ECS (coolant) sensors are equivalent to each other, as well as across the board. That makes sense too, because you could use one look-up table, and one subroutine in your software, to take all three readings. You would also buy 30,00,000 of the same thermistor, and save a bundle of cash. The only difference would be the packaging. The MAF sensors could be a different story though. Their Physical geometry is dictated by airflow. A 5.7L Bronco motor will flow one hell of a lot more air than a 2.3L Mustang motor. You probably wouldn't want to use the same venturi casing on the MAF. Although, It wouldn't surprise me if there are only 2 or 3 different versions of the MAF sensor. I bet that they kept the electronic "guts" of the MAF the same across the board, again, to save money. I also know, (on the cars I have seen) that GM uses a MAP sensor that provides a voltage output. Same for Toyota, and Mazda. Ford likes to send a frequency that is proportional to the pressure. I guess that offers better noise immunity. (Although it -may- cause some EMI) The frequency approach also requires one less ADC channel. Last question: I was buying an EGO sensor for my Mustang. When I went to the friendly Ford dealer (NOT) I was asked for a "Calibration code" that is part of the VIN on the car. Why was this necessary? Aren't all EGO's the same? I thought they sort-of had to be, because of the gas detection method. Why not (see above arguments) make -all- EGO's calibrated the same, and then use your software (which has to be unique anyway) to interface the EGO to the engine setup? Any ideas? --------> LF >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 21:21:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27649; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:21:35 GMT Received: from gw2.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27644; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:21:19 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA18533; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:22:01 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA19281; Wed, 8 Mar 95 15:19:01 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA19173; Wed, 8 Mar 95 15:18:36 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA05159; Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:21:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 15:21:30 -0600 Message-Id: <9503082121.AA05159@xxx.com> From: bohdan@xxx.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Pop-Quiz... Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Ok, here are some nagging question I want to share.. > > Are the MAP and MAF sensors that are mass-produced by auto makers all >calibrated the same? (among the same manufacturer) More specifically, can I >take my MAP sensor calibration data from a Mustang and expect to see the >same " cal curve" on an Escort's MAP sensor? Yes (for the latter question). Send me e-mail if you want the frequency-to-pressure relationship for Ford's MAP sensors. Atmospheric pressure will correspond to something between 150 Hz and 155 Hz (pressure dependent). > I have a Chiltons manual that implies that all Ford MAP's are the same. >It also implies that the MAT and ACT, and ECS (coolant) sensors are >equivalent to each other, as well as across the board. That makes sense too, >because you could use one look-up table, and one subroutine in your >software, to take all three readings. You would also buy 30,00,000 of the >same thermistor, and save a bundle of cash. The only difference would be the >packaging. This is correct. The same thermistor is used, but the packaging is different. > I also know, (on the cars I have seen) that GM uses a MAP sensor that >provides a voltage output. Same for Toyota, and Mazda. Ford likes to send a >frequency that is proportional to the pressure. I guess that offers better >noise immunity. (Although it -may- cause some EMI) The frequency approach >also requires one less ADC channel. GM also uses a variable-frequency MAF sensor (max frequency is around 3 kHz). The original variable-frequency MAF sensors were made by Hitachi. Delco now has one out which is also a variable frequency sensor. Externally, the variable frequency MAF sensors are smaller than the older Bosch heated wire ones which GM used. > Last question: > > I was buying an EGO sensor for my Mustang. When I went to the friendly >Ford dealer (NOT) I was asked for a "Calibration code" that is part of the >VIN on the car. Why was this necessary? Aren't all EGO's the same? I thought >they sort-of had to be, because of the gas detection method. Why not (see >above arguments) make -all- EGO's calibrated the same, and then use your >software (which has to be unique anyway) to interface the EGO to the engine >setup? Physically, there isn't much difference among O2 sensors. Solid state electrolyte theory (on which the modern O2 sensor is based) was very well developed by the mid 1950s and the mechanism of oxygen ion transport was well understood (*lots* of theory and empirical data available then). My Mustang has a Tomco aftermarket sensor (which is nothing more than a GM O2 sensor). Ford requires "calibration codes" for EVERYTHING, no matter how trivial. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 8 21:25:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27666; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:25:35 GMT Received: from [137.227.80.2] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27661; Wed, 8 Mar 95 16:25:26 -0500 Received: by src.src.usbm.gov (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA04945; Wed, 8 Mar 95 13:29:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Mitsubishi ECU To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi, This is my first post to this listserver, I haven't even gotten a taste of exactly what is discussed here, so here goes... I have a 1984 Dodge (mitsubishi) Colt Turbo GTS. This vehicle has throttle body fuel injection, controlled by an ECU of course. I have increased the boost via a check valve on the wastegate actuator tube and have made a few other less rewarding ($/hp) modifications as well. The stock ECU limits maximum boost to 9.5 psi by cutting fuel after that point. I have learned of a trick to fool the MAP sensor's taddle tale signal by momentarily disconnecting this wire when in boost by means of a GM no-oil-pressure = no-start switch. I haven't implemented this trick but I would like to in the future. I have some questions that you folks may be able to answer about increasing the richness of fuel mixture in case it begins to lean out in the higher boost ranges. 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate in a specific voltage range. 2. If I find that I am indeed running lean in high boost (very dangerous condition I understand) what are some easy ways to trick the ECU into giving me more fuel, assuming that my injectors aren't already wide open? In the repair manual written by Haynes, it gives the voltage ranges that come out of various sensors like the coolant temperature, altitude, and some others that I can't remember. Can I put a variable resistor inline with these signals to trick the computer into thinking its still cold? How well do these type of mods work? 3. For my own curiosity, I would like to know how easy it is to interface a notebook computer with some of the wires on your ECU to monitor the various data inputs and perhaps do some graphs of these signals to view how they respond to one another. 4. Finally, I would like to know how companies like SuperChips and StarChips, etc. modify ECU's. Do they buy used ECU's and actually reprogram them or do they start from scratch or what? I haven't looked inside my box, but I don't think there are any removable EPROM's like some GM cars have. Would reprogramming my fuel curve involve learning the assembly code for whatever chip is inside my ECU and making tweaks or what? Thanks in advance for all your input! Joel Robinson robinj@xxx.gov >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 00:46:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28231; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:46:33 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28225; Wed, 8 Mar 95 19:46:26 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA09511 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:46:17 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:44:46 +1100 Message-Id: <199503090044.LAA15678@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:44:45 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <19191.fran0054@xxx.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 7, 95 02:07:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 671 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Matt, I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 00:46:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28238; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:46:49 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28233; Wed, 8 Mar 95 19:46:44 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rmWLI-000CuOC; Wed, 8 Mar 95 18:44 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 18:44:39 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: > 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an > LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would > like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if > it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate > in a specific voltage range. It will work with any zirconia O2 sensor. Almost all cars use zirconia sensors. However, that bar might as well only have 3 lights on it, because that is all its telling you. The A/F range over which a zirconia EGO has meaningful output is around 14.3:1 thru 15.1:1 (gasoline). You get richer than 14.3:1 or so (note, this range will be different for every single O2 sensor, even supposedly identical ones), and the output will vary more with EGT than A/F. For best power, you probably want to be somewhere between 12.5:1-13.5:1. The difference between 12.5:1 and 14.3:1 on a hot turbo motor can be holes in the pistons.... and you can't tell the difference reliably with a zirconia EGO. That doesn't mean the O2 sensor isn't useful, is great for tuning cruising conditions and idle. It's also better than nothing at WOT... if less than 650mV or so, you've definately got a problem. Greater than, you might be ok.... like i said, better than nothing! -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.mtsu.edu/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 02:28:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28405; Thu, 9 Mar 95 02:28:47 GMT Received: from tomcat.al.noaa.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28400; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:28:44 -0500 Received: from aztec.al.noaa.gov by tomcat.al.noaa.gov with SMTP id AA27105 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:28:57 -0700 Message-Id: <199503090228.AA27105@xxx.gov> Date: 8 Mar 1995 19:30:42 -0700 From: "Ciciora Steve" Subject: RE: Re: more questions about details To: DIY_EFI Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI (sorry, it's not easy for me to include a previous post) Someone asked about voltage output from sensors. I have 'calibrated' several GM MAP sensors, and found them to be very similar in calibration from unit to unit (same part number), and very dependent on reference voltage. I even made a plot of output voltage vs Torr, but it is on a hard disk that is no longer attached to anything :-( In other words, the output is a fraction of the input voltage. If the sensor is at half scale, then the output would be half the input. I have been meaning to check the temperature coefficient of these guys. Humm, mabe I'll dig up that hard disk and recover my data... -Steven Ciciora Oh, ya. They are also an 'absolute' sensor. Ambient pressure changes with the weather. >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 02:50:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28466; Thu, 9 Mar 95 02:50:15 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28461; Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:50:13 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-35.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 8 Mar 95 20:48:34 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 20:48:31 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <18223.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Robert wrote: >I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization >sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before >my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. > >Robert >-- Other than building the ion probe for that previous research, my exposure to that has been small. I was sort of a temporary worker for part of a year for that project, and read just enough to get the job done. Hopefully, Brehob referrenced that Cambridge PhD thesis in her '89 or '90 SAE paper. If she did, and you can get a copy of that thesis, I think the reference list was just fabulous. I think they often referred to "Langamuir probes" (spelling?) as the correct name for the sensors, but my memory is a little foggy here. Another colleague has done some knock work here and looked into ion gap sensing. His thesis emphasis shifted to optical methods, and I think he may have dropped the ion part. That may have been because he needed radically new territory to cover for his thesis. He probably still has some good references though, as he is very thorough in whatever he does. I'll ask him, too. Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 05:22:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28654; Thu, 9 Mar 95 05:22:44 GMT Received: from yarrina.connect.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28649; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:22:32 -0500 Received: (from root@xxx.au with UUCP id PAA21552 (8.6.10/IDA-1.6 for DIY_EFI@xxx.edu); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:03:58 +1000 Received: from charon.adacel.com.au by server.adacel.com.au with SMTP id AA02247 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:30:02 +1100 Received: From ADACEL1/WORKQUEUE by charon.adacel.com.au via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950309151530.384; 09 Mar 95 15:20:41 +1000 Message-Id: To: DIY_EFI From: "David Smith" Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:15:24 GMT+1000 Subject: O2 Sensors Priority: normal X-Mailer: WinPMail v1.0 (R1) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI lusky@xxx. Lusky) writes: > .... Almost all cars use zirconia sensors .... Hi to you all. I've been lurking around this list for a while and have read some very interesting information about engine management systems. My immediate interest lies in modifying the EMS on my own car - a Nissan Skyline GTR that is powered by a twin-turbo in-line six. This car was only sold in Japan and Australia so information is scarce. The EMS seems to have some bugs and deliberate limits in it that mean that the car doesn't run so well under some conditions. Apparently the car responds well to fairly simple EMS program changes. Being a software/electronics engineer, I want to delve into the EMS myself. On to my questions. I want to install an O2 monitor. The training manual for the car says that "... the O2 sensor is made of ceramic Titania that drastically alters its resistance at the ideal air fuel ratio. The ECU supplies the sensor with approx 1 volt and reads the sensor output voltage..." Is this sensor different to the Zirconia sensor mentioned above? If so, what are the characteristics? Does anyone have any information on the CONSULT diagnostic system used by the EMS in late model Nissans? Thanks. David Smith. >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 05:21:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28646; Thu, 9 Mar 95 05:21:57 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28641; Thu, 9 Mar 95 00:21:49 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA27621 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 15:21:33 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:19:57 +1100 Message-Id: <199503090519.QAA16034@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:19:55 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <18223.fran0054@xxx.edu> from "Matthew Lee Franklin" at Mar 8, 95 08:48:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 869 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all, hot off the press from SAE 95 in Detroit Feb 27 - Mar 5 SAE 950004 Ion-Gap Sense in Misfire Detection, Knock and Engine Control Auzins, J., Johansson, H. and Nytomt, J., (Delco and Mecel) SAE 950003 Engine Misfire Detection by Ionization Current Monitoring Lee, A. and Pyko, J., (Chrysler) I personally haven't had time to read them yet. I'll report the interesting bits later. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 13:35:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29175; Thu, 9 Mar 95 13:35:25 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29170; Thu, 9 Mar 95 08:35:22 -0500 Received: from pm1_10.magicnet.net (pm1_10.magicnet.net [204.96.116.60]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA06444; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:52:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199503091352.IAA06444@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 08:21:01 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The early Mitsubishi ECU used a Motorola 6803 processor base with some extras in it which made it unobtainable. Typically of the Japanese, the semiconductor sales people knew nothing about the mask programmed CPU, ask the car people. The car people said we make cars not chips....go away. A considerable amount of work allowed me to read the firmware and create a pcb with an expansion port on it. This had the CPU, an EPROM and a port expander chip connected to the CPU's multiplexed addrss/data lines. The whole pcb plugged into a socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be, and the same pcb fitted the later Starion and the Colt cars available in England in 1985 and on. The fuelling on these cars is computed, not looked up from a table. This made it very difficult to change because without knowing the full algorithm changing one things altered others. My main concern was the removal of the boost limit and this was less difficult. We ran the Colt cars at 15 PSI boost without any problems (except massive torque steer) and as I remember we got about 175 HP from the engine. The way I would do it today would probably be with an FCD as it was too expensive in engineering time to do it that way for the few sales we got. To remove the boost limit, connect a 330ohm resistor in series with the boost pressure sensor line, and a 4.3v zener to ground to clamp the input to a maximum of about 4.5v. This will stop it cutting out, but when you get over 12 PSI boost the engine will start to lean out, so use your air fuel moinitor. Ignition is controlled from a seperate unit. I probably still have one or two of the pcbs lying around in England and you may have one if you want one. If I don't have any and have to get them made, I will sell them to you at my cost. Alternatively, I may even have the original artwork and you can make your own. You can also have the software as well. Hooking a laptop upto this computer will be very difficult as you would have to make an interface to convert all of the input signals to a digital format and write the sofware to display them. Let me know if you want any more info. Peter Wales Superchips Inc >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 15:43:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00150; Thu, 9 Mar 95 15:43:00 GMT Received: from igate1.hac.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00144; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:42:53 -0500 Received: from EDEN1.HAC.COM by igate1.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14403; Thu, 9 Mar 95 07:41:09 PST Received: from hyperion.hdos.hac.com by EDEN1.HAC.COM (PMDF V4.3-13 #5884) id <01HNXAG8498G00J9NM@xxx.COM>; Thu, 09 Mar 1995 07:42:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from daedalus.hdos.hac.com by hyperion.hdos.hac.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16326; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:44:06 EST Received: From HDOS_DPC/WORKQUEUE by daedalus.hdos.hac.com via Charon-4.0A-VROOM with IPX id 100.950309104016.288; 09 Mar 95 10:42:36 +0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:40:00 ET From: John T Stein Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Joel A. Robinson writes: > I have some questions that you folks may be able to answer about > increasing the richness of fuel mixture in case it begins to lean out in > the higher boost ranges. > > 1. How can I easily monitor the A/F ratio as I drive? I have an > LED bar graph guage that taps into the O2 sensor wire but I would > like to know if this guage works for all engines regardless or if > it was designed to work with only certain O2 sensors that operate > in a specific voltage range. > An analog monitor on the O2 sensor line does yield useful information but ONLY if the input impedance of the meter is very high (>~10 Megohm). This means you will need a FET input amplifier between your bar graph indicator and the sensor. Also, be aware that the O2 sensors typically used are highly nonlinear with what is essentially a step changein output voltage at stoichiometric ratio. As a result, your indicator will oscillate about 450 millivolts. The duty cycle of the indicator will reflect the time-averaged AF ratio. > 2. If I find that I am indeed running lean in high boost (very > dangerous condition I understand) what are some easy ways to > trick the ECU into giving me more fuel, assuming that my injectors > aren't already wide open? In the repair manual written by Haynes, > it gives the voltage ranges that come out of various sensors like > the coolant temperature, altitude, and some others that I can't > remember. Can I put a variable resistor inline with these signals > to trick the computer into thinking its still cold? How well do > these type of mods work? > These "tricks"do work but remember that signals like coolant temp affect many engine operating parameters that you may not want to alter; e.g. idle speed. A similar trick is to rescale the output from the MAP sensor (if it is a voltage rather than frequency) with a resistive network at the output of the sensor processor. This may be a better solution than your switch approach. Remember that many ECMs continuously recalibrate themselves to baseline readings from some sensors; e.g. Throttle position sensor reading at idle, and may circumvent to your "trickery". >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 16:07:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00241; Thu, 9 Mar 95 16:07:05 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00235; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:07:01 -0500 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <167059-3>; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:08:43 -0500 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11864; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:02:00 EST Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma011861; Thu Mar 9 11:01:41 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16263; Thu, 9 Mar 95 10:49:49 EST Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @xxx.edu id AA08287; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:06:31 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:06:31 -0500 From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Message-Id: <9503091606.AA08287@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > hot off the press from SAE 95 in Detroit Feb 27 - Mar 5 How would Joe Q. Public get a copy of these papers? Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 17:00:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA00942; Thu, 9 Mar 95 17:00:17 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA00936; Thu, 9 Mar 95 12:00:13 -0500 Received: from srlns1.srl.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA03615 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:11 -0500 Received: from ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com [19.3.98.21]) by srlns1.srl.ford.com (8.6.8/FordSRL 1.0) with SMTP id MAA15017 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:05 -0500 From: tsakiris@xxx.com Received: by ed8200.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA02047; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by pt9254.ped.pto.ford.com (5.65/PED-CLIENT) id AA00342; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:00:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9503091700.AA00342@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Cc: tsakiris@xxx.com Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Mar 95 11:06:31 EST." <9503091606.AA08287@xxx.com> Date: Thu, 09 Mar 95 12:00:03 -0500 X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >How would Joe Q. Public get a copy of these papers? > Mike >+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >| Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | >| Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | >+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ FYI: SAE Headquarters 400 Commonwealth Drive Warrendale, Pennsylvania 15096-0001 Tel: 412-776-4841 Fax: 412-776-9765 (from SAE's monthly magazine, Automotive Engineering) >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 19:34:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01516; Thu, 9 Mar 95 19:34:10 GMT Received: from sunman.chinalake.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01511; Thu, 9 Mar 95 14:33:53 -0500 Received: from suns.chinalake.navy.mil (suns.chinalake.navy.mil [129.131.1.84]) by sunman.chinalake.navy.mil (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA10133 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:47:26 -0800 Received: by suns.chinalake.navy.mil (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA16031; Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:35:29 PST From: nasa@xxx.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Message-Id: <9503091935.AA16031@xxx.mil> Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) To: DIY_EFI Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:35:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199503090044.LAA15678@xxx.AU> from "robert dingli" at Mar 9, 95 11:44:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 430 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > Matt, > > I, for one, would be very interested in reading more about ionization > sensing. It has been used extensively in our thermo labs before > my time. I'll try and hunt up any references as well. > > Robert > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au > Me to Me to! Any good references would be great also. cat > >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 9 20:45:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02093; Thu, 9 Mar 95 20:45:59 GMT Received: from pine.cse.nau.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02087; Thu, 9 Mar 95 15:45:55 -0500 Received: (from met@xxx.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:45:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199503092045.NAA02512@xxx.edu> From: met@xxx.edu (MTN-KAT) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:45:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: "Matthew Lee Franklin" "Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps)" (Mar 8, 8:48pm) X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI This ion gap sensing sounds pretty good. My question is whether the current change due to gap erosion is corrected for. Seems that after a few thousand miles the sensor would start reading less ionization due to the rounding off of the center electrode. Millam E. Tackitt >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 03:30:11 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05560; Fri, 10 Mar 95 03:30:11 GMT Received: from mv.MV.COM by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05553; Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:30:08 -0500 Received: by mv.mv.com (8.6.10/mv(b)/mem-940616) id WAA16909 for diy_efi@xxx.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:30:05 -0500 From: station.MV.COM!mvarc!an!adh Message-Id: <199503100330.WAA16909@xxx.com> Received: by station.mv.com (1.64/waf) via UUCP; Thu, 09 Mar 95 22:22:29 EST for mv!coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi Received: by mvarc.station.mv.com (1.64/waf) via UUCP; Wed, 08 Mar 95 22:43:37 EST for coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu!diy_efi To: diy_efi Subject: Re: Intro - and question Date: Thu Mar 9 23:42 EST 1995 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI It would take a good deal of testing to find out what the waveform would look like under different conditions. Seems technically feasable, though. and i agree that your average joe with a soldering iron wouldn't learn much, but your average joe with a soldering iron -and- a scope... a pc-controlled dyno and an engine with moderately high compression and pc-programmed dfi would complete my setup. this would let you easily and reproducibly vary speed/load, fuel/air, ign timing, and with 2 fuel tanks, octane. if there's anything to be seen in the post-ignition ionization, this would give a pretty good chance of seeing it. i think i'd also want a spectrum analyzer. well, these days, they come on pc cards too... _______________________________________________________________________________ Andrew Hay LIFE, n: A phenomenon that resists the second law of thermodynamics adh@xxx.us ---Schroedinger >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 04:45:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05864; Fri, 10 Mar 95 04:45:16 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05859; Thu, 9 Mar 95 23:45:14 -0500 Received: from dialup-1-3.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:43:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 22:43:37 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17270.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Knock sensor control (and other uses for ionization gaps) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >This ion gap sensing sounds pretty good. My question is whether the current >change due to gap erosion is corrected for. Seems that after a few thousand >miles the sensor would start reading less ionization due to the rounding off of >the center electrode. > >Millam E. Tackitt Good thought, but maybe the thing to look for is a signature or shape of a type of event such as a misfire or knock rather than the absolute current level. Granted, the absolute level really does matter, but within wear limits maybe you'd find an OK compromise. I suppose other things might affect the absolute level also, such as fuel composition (ethanol, MTBE, or more minute additives). Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 19:43:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA07859; Fri, 10 Mar 95 19:43:02 GMT Received: from [137.227.80.2] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA07854; Fri, 10 Mar 95 14:42:52 -0500 Received: by src.src.usbm.gov (1.37.109.4/16.2) id AA16181; Fri, 10 Mar 95 11:47:03 -0800 Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 11:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Joel A. Robinson" Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Peter Wales wrote: > > A considerable amount of work allowed me to read the firmware and create a > pcb with an expansion port on it. This had the CPU, an EPROM and a port > expander chip connected to the CPU's multiplexed addrss/data lines. The > whole pcb plugged into a socket on the motherboard where the CPU used to be, > and the same pcb fitted the later Starion and the Colt cars available in > England in 1985 and on. You would know better than I, will the PCB of which you speak work with the 1984 Colt? I know that the engines are very similar but I think there are differences between the computers. As I understand it, the '84 is unique, 85 & 86 had the same ECU and '87 & '88 had a newer computer without a boost driven fuel cut. I think that the '87-on computer performs some other type of calculation like MAF > set maximum to protect the engine. I really can't remember what I read, it was printed in a copy of Turbo and High Tech Performance that featured an '87 Colt Turbo with quite a few mods. This article has been lost, God Damnit! > The fuelling on these cars is computed, not looked up from a table. This > made it very difficult to change because without knowing the full algorithm > changing one things altered others. My main concern was the removal of the > boost limit and this was less difficult. We ran the Colt cars at 15 PSI > boost without any problems (except massive torque steer) and as I remember > we got about 175 HP from the engine. My father has an '84 Colt Turbo with the '87 engine and ECU and I would estimate (no rolling road) he has 160+ horsepower. His main performance gain came from having no trace of a Catalytic (parasitic) converter. If I remember correctly, his car rarely exceeds 11 psi probably due to the microscopic turbo unit fitted to these cars. > The way I would do it today would probably be with an FCD as it was too > expensive in engineering time to do it that way for the few sales we got. To > remove the boost limit, connect a 330ohm resistor in series with the boost > pressure sensor line, and a 4.3v zener to ground to clamp the input to a > maximum of about 4.5v. This will stop it cutting out, but when you get over > 12 PSI boost the engine will start to lean out, so use your air fuel > moinitor. Ignition is controlled from a seperate unit. I am not familiar with the term 'zener'. Would you mind drawing this unit up and emailing it to me? I would certainly like to build the circuit you are talking about. Why does the engine lean out? Are the injectors maxxed out? How could I keep the AF ratio correct at higher boost levels? I have a little device that I ordered from JC Whitney (not exactly a world class performance outfit) that increases the injector pulse width and will allow up to 25% more fuel (if available of course) at an RPM starting point that you can set. The problem is, it only works with single primary injector TBI units and mine has 2. I guess this brings up another question: How the hell do my injectors operate? Are they like anti-aircraft guns that fire back and forth or is one really a primary injector? No repair manual that I have come across specifies, they only tell you that they're injectors A & B. > I probably still have one or two of the pcbs lying around in England and you > may have one if you want one. If I don't have any and have to get them made, > I will sell them to you at my cost. Alternatively, I may even have the > original artwork and you can make your own. You can also have the software > as well. I would certainly be interested in a PCB!!!! I would like to see the software too! I can't believe that you exist! No one ever has anything for these little cars. > > Hooking a laptop upto this computer will be very difficult as you would have > to make an interface to convert all of the input signals to a digital format > and write the sofware to display them. Okay then, forget it. My father has a Subaru Legacy 2.2L Turbo and I think I remember seeing a chip advertised for his car. What does this chip do and what is required to get the horsepower rating that was listed? I think it was around 250, a big jump from the extremely tame 160 HP it comes with. Thank you very, very much for your help! Joel Robinson robinj@xxx.gov >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 10 22:20:14 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08700; Fri, 10 Mar 95 22:20:14 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08695; Fri, 10 Mar 95 17:20:08 -0500 Received: from pm2_25.magicnet.net (pm2_25.magicnet.net [204.96.116.115]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA14866; Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:37:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199503102237.RAA14866@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:05:35 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, diy_efi From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mitsubishi ECU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I do have some PCBs in England, some are being sent over next week. Anyone who wants one send me a snail mail address. The zener clamp looks like this: <-to boost sensor cut here to boost input on ECU -------------------------------X---------------------------- ! ! ! ! ! ! Z ! Z330 ohm resistor ! Z ! ! ! !----------------------- ` ! _ ! ! ! !4.3 v zener. White end to resistor ! ! _ ! ! !ground --------------------------------------------------------- The idea is that you feed the existing boost pressure sensor voltage in through a low value resistor to preserve its integrity. Then you clamp the voltage to about 4.5 volts with a 4.3 v zener. Both parts come from Radio Shack. The voltage at the computer now receives the same voltage from the boost sensor as before, until it rises to the zener voltage and then the zener starts to draw current and restricts the voltage from rising any further. Hence the boost can rise but the computer will not cut the fuel off. You should be aware that the fuelling is not going to increase past the zener voltage and the purists in this group are going to advise you that it is a dangerous thing to do, and they are right. If you do this, use an exhaust gas monitor and ensure the CO does not drop below 4% (Lambda number anyone?) This is the principle of the FCD devices sold by HKS and others and it will work on just about any turbo car with a voltage output pressure sensor, including the Subaru turbo. In general, do not turn up the boost pressure more than 25% from the stock reading. Use it wisely and you wont have problems. Go for too much boost and expect meltdown! The Colt has two large injectors in a manifold/pressure regulator system and they each fire alternately one at TDC and the other at BDC. Thus at low power, each cylinder gets a squirt. At full boost they are both open continuously. The system is curious because it uses an ultrasonic air flow meter (mass air meter) to measure air mass until the onset of boost then it switches to map sensing while on boost. Peter Wales Superchips Inc >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 19:52:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA08388; Mon, 13 Mar 95 19:52:26 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA08383; Mon, 13 Mar 95 14:52:22 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA13338; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:39:41 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA28483; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:39:38 -0600 Message-Id: <9503131939.AA28483@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: HC11 disassembler? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 13:39:31 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Does anyone know of a good disassembler for the 68HC11? I'm in the process of reversing the PROM from a '91 GMC Syclone, and I'd like to take a look at the code. Thanks, Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 22:50:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09621; Mon, 13 Mar 95 22:50:00 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09616; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 -0500 Message-Id: <9503132249.AA09616@xxx.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- This is an announcement of work in-progress toward creating an engine controller based on the 68332. A few weeks ago Rod Barman posted of his intent of designing such a controller, and (after much persuasion :) ) has my support in that I am now willing to help design, build, test, and write software towards its completion. We are looking for others who are willing to do the same. To facilitate this goal and avoid overcrowding diy_efi with detailed design issues, a second mailing list has been created. The new mailing list "efi332" is dedicated to discussion of project specific requirements. (Topics not specifically related to efi332 should still be directed to diy_efi. Cross-posting is an option when appropriate.) I invite all of you who wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to the mailing list "efi332@xxx.edu" (send "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the status and goals of efi332. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 23:21:47 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09861; Mon, 13 Mar 95 23:21:47 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09856; Mon, 13 Mar 95 18:21:42 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0roJQf-000vJWC; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0roJQd-000uTRC; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:21:19 CST Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:13:29 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@xxx.com Subject: re: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI John S Gwynne Wrote: | This is an announcement of work in-progress toward creating | an engine controller based on the 68332. | | A few weeks ago Rod Barman posted of his intent of designing | such a controller, and (after much persuasion :) ) has my | support in that I am now willing to help design, build, test, | and write software towards its completion. We are looking for | others who are willing to do the same. To facilitate this | goal and avoid overcrowding diy_efi with detailed design | issues, a second mailing list has been created. The new | mailing list "efi332" is dedicated to discussion of project | specific requirements. (Topics not specifically related | to efi332 should still be directed to diy_efi. Cross-posting | is an option when appropriate.) I invite all of you who | wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to | the mailing list "efi332@xxx.edu" (send | "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). I think the idea of a group project is great, but I question whether a separate list is really needed. I would guess the average traffic on this list is about 4 messages a day, that isn't really overwhelming. Anyway, I'll join the new list, but I'd say the traffic is better left in diy_efi. This group has about the highest signal to noise ratio of any group I've joined. As long as the additional traffic is still signal and not noise I wouldn't mind seeing it even if I didn't plan on using the '332. just my pov. | | With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the | status and goals of efi332. yes, please! --steve >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 13 23:45:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09918; Mon, 13 Mar 95 23:45:40 GMT Received: from grolsch-2.cs.ubc.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09913; Mon, 13 Mar 95 18:45:35 -0500 Received: (from ean@xxx.edu; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:25 -0800 X400-Received: by /PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/; Relayed; Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:23 UTC-0800 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:45:23 UTC-0800 X400-Originator: rodb@xxx.ca X400-Recipients: non-disclosure:; X400-Content-Type: P2-1984 (2) X400-Mts-Identifier: [/PRMD=ca/ADMD=telecom.canada/C=ca/;950313154523] Content-Identifier: 2529 From: Rod Barman To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9503132249.AA09616@xxx.edu> Message-Id: <"2529*rodb@xxx.ca"@MHS> Subject: Re: [announce] 68332 based ECM (efi332) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Ean X.400 to MIME gateway) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > With that said, I would like to invite Rod to summarize the > status and goals of efi332. Thanks for the invite. For those of you who may not know, the MC68332 is a 68K variant designed by Motorola and General Motors for engine control. There are supposedly three in the new Chevy Blazer. I've also discovered that Zytec engine management systems (used on some Ford products in Europe) are also based on the '332. My own experience with the '332 has been for robotic control. I've used a Motorola Business Card Computer module as the basis to control a couple of different robots. More recently I've designed and built our own '332 controllers using relatively cheap two-layer PCBs. We use the GNU tools to do all of our software development. What I've proposed to John and started to work on is that we standardize on a "core" board based on a '332. This will provide a common environment at a relatively low cost upon which FI systems can be built. The board will have a bunch of connectors that will allow lots of flexibility. The PCBs will be available for personal non-commercial use directly from the manufacturer (AP Circuits) and should be really cheap. As for time frame, I have almost all of the parts entered into the cad system, schematics entered, etc. so after we get the remaining issues resolved boards will be available within a couple of weeks. Once everybody gets on efi332 we can sort out issues like which connectors to use, memory size, development environment details, board shape etc. Thanks --rod. -- Rod Barman, IRIS ISDE-6 @ Laboratory for Computational Intelligence University of British Columbia rodb@xxx.ca >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 14 02:15:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10442; Tue, 14 Mar 95 02:15:26 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA10437; Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:15:23 -0500 Message-Id: <9503140215.AA10437@xxx.edu> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: [CORRECTION!!!!!] 68332 based ECM (efi332) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 13 Mar 95 17:49:57 EST." <9503132249.AA09616@xxx.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 95 21:15:23 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -------- In message <9503132249.AA09616@xxx.edu> , you write: | I invite all of you who | wish to *contribute* or build this project to subscribe to | the mailing list "efi332@xxx.edu" (send | "subscribe efi332" in the body of the email). Send "subscribe efi332" to "majordomo@xxx. Postings should be sent to "efi332@xxx. My mistake... and now my head-ache... :). John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 15 06:16:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA05750; Wed, 15 Mar 95 06:16:54 GMT Received: from kaiwan.kaiwan.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA05745; Wed, 15 Mar 95 01:16:51 -0500 Received: from kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (389@xxx.5) with ESMTP id WAA28731 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:46 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Received: (from douglas@xxx.9) id WAA03180; Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:45 -0800 *** KAIWAN Internet Access *** Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: Black Feather Electronics To: diy_efi Subject: New 68HC11 Development / Proto Board Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI There's a new 68HC11 development / Proto Board available, for more info you can E-Mail to: (just say "send info", it's a human) Black Feather Electronics Or browse around the www site: "http://www.kaiwan.com/~douglas" >From owner-diy_efi Wed Mar 15 21:59:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA09628; Wed, 15 Mar 95 21:59:13 GMT Received: from cebaf4.cebaf.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA09623; Wed, 15 Mar 95 16:59:10 -0500 Received: by cebaf4.cebaf.gov (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA16444; Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:59:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 16:59:07 -0500 From: bowling@xxx.gov (Bruce Bowling) Message-Id: <9503152159.AA16444@xxx.gov> To: DIY_EFI Subject: auto programs Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI FYI, I have been playing with cgi/html on the WWW, and I have made two interactive automotive programs. One computes the fuel injector pulse width at WOT, peak torque and finds the best injector, and the other corrects 1/4 mile ET and MPH run times to standard correction, to aid in comparison. The link is: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html Someone try them and let me know if they work! - Bruce ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 16 18:37:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14250; Thu, 16 Mar 95 18:37:19 GMT Received: from interlock.lexmark.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14245; Thu, 16 Mar 95 13:37:15 -0500 Received: by interlock.lexmark.com id AA08655 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for DIY_EFI@xxx.edu); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199503161836.AA08655@xxx.com> Received: by interlock.lexmark.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 Received: by interlock.lexmark.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:36:27 -0500 To: "DIY_EFI%coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu" From: Craig McCormick Date: 16 Mar 95 13:37:56 EST Subject: -No Subject- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just discovered your list today. I have read through the archives and could not find an answer to my question: A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to capture the data coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. We have the Diacom software from Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found out how to trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with different amounts of resistance. Now we need to know how capture that data on a PC. Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. . . Craig craig@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Thu Mar 16 19:54:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA14472; Thu, 16 Mar 95 19:54:37 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA14466; Thu, 16 Mar 95 14:54:32 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA22744; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:54:28 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA05164; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:54:26 -0600 Message-Id: <9503161954.AA05164@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL In-Reply-To: Your message of "16 Mar 95 13:37:56 EST." <199503161836.AA08655@xxx.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 13:54:20 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to capture the data > coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. What kind of GM car? Depending on the year, make, and model, the data rate is quite different. > We have the Diacom software from > Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found out how to > trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with different amounts of > resistance. Is this what the Diacom does? I thought they sent out the proper ALDL mode request commands to get the ECM to send back the data it wanted. 3.9 k (factory test) mode is really pretty useless, but I haven't played with 10k mode enough to know what kind of data this mode generates. I suspect that the diagnostic pin is also a serial data input. I'm working on a similar project for the '91-'93 Syclone/Typhoon, but I haven't got it all working yet. Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 01:27:05 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15535; Fri, 17 Mar 95 01:27:05 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15530; Thu, 16 Mar 95 20:26:48 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@xxx.5) id KAA08600; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:06:09 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199503162206.KAA08600@xxx.nz> Subject: Lambda & Lead To: diy_efi Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:06:08 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 758 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I would like to find some information on leaded fuels and exhaust oxygen sensors. The subject of leaded fuel and its effects seems to be one with much emotion and urban legend, so I am looking for verifiable references or production examples. Leaded fuel is still alive and well in New Zealand and a lambda sensor seems to me to be a fairly high priority in an EFI system that is to be developed and tuned mostly without a dyno. This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. Does anybody have any experiences with cars with EFI and no cat from the factory ? One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no appreciable degradation. Any pointers appreciated. Steve. >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 02:59:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15641; Fri, 17 Mar 95 02:59:24 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15636; Thu, 16 Mar 95 21:59:11 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA18759; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:58:23 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950317134322.736; 17 Mar 95 13:58:26 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:43:08 EST-11 Subject: Injector Dynamic Range Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.20-pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) then all we should need is an 8 bit map, however if the dynamic range is higher then there may be some real advantages in 16 bit (96dB) maps. Also, what sort of repeatability (error) do injectors have? Can someone quote a +/- 0.x ms for a common injector? I visited MOTEC last night and it has got me thinking..... Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 03:34:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA15709; Fri, 17 Mar 95 03:34:16 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15704; Thu, 16 Mar 95 22:34:12 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA02656 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:34:02 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA06754; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:33:07 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA119701488; Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:38:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Mar 95 22:11:38 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Degradation of the Lambda sensor is a function of just how much lead it sees over time, but there's no question that it does happen. Some sensors are more resistant than others. Bosch, et al, have ratings of the form "40,000 km life @xxx.5g/l" for their sensors. You might be able to get exact numbers if you talk to them. A friend who runs Turbo Blue racing his Buick Regal GN has observed that the signal degradation is principally a slowing of response time. There are other effects which are probably well documented in the SAE literature. What you can do is go to Radio Shack, get a cheap digital multimeter, splice it into the Lambda sensor line, Velcro it to your dash, and simply watch it. A good sensor will transition from lean (about .02-.03 volts) to rich (about .70-.80+ volts) faster than the update rate of the DMM. As the sensor gets contaminated (over hundreds or thousands of miles, not dozens) the transition time will slow noticeably. The dynamics of your system will determine how slow is too slow. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 04:59:01 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16004; Fri, 17 Mar 95 04:59:01 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA15999; Thu, 16 Mar 95 23:58:54 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA16395 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:58:44 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:56:36 +1100 Message-Id: <199503170456.PAA25297@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 15:56:35 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503162206.KAA08600@xxx.nz> from "Steve Baldwin" at Mar 17, 95 10:06:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1678 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Steve et al. > This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run > leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. > Does anybody have any experiences with cars with EFI and no cat from the > factory ? I haven't done any conclusive tests, but I have been using a non-heated single wire lambda sensor on my 4.2 Jaguar for over a year. It has had absolutely no problems with the leaded fuel available here in Australia (which I believe is relativley high in Pb concentration). The signal is read by my ECU and used for display purposes only. There is no point in running stoiciometric for my application and thus I only uses it as a rich/lean guide while tuning. > One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no > appreciable degradation. I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly possible given the chemistry of the sensors. My theory is to choose a second hand sensor which is cheap and easy to get and then to replace it if there are any problems. So far, there haven't been any. :-) The sensor I use started off life on a Toyota 3SG. regards Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 07:10:41 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16180; Fri, 17 Mar 95 07:10:41 GMT Received: from aztec.co.za by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16175; Fri, 17 Mar 95 02:10:26 -0500 Received: by aztec.co.za (Smail3.1.28.1 #17) id m0rpW8p-000KdiC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 09:08 EET Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:08:08 +0200 (SAT) From: Wouter de Waal Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503162206.KAA08600@xxx.nz> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Steve Baldwin wrote: > Leaded fuel is still alive and well in New Zealand and a lambda sensor > seems to me to be a fairly high priority in an EFI system that is to be > developed and tuned mostly without a dyno. > This may be an arguable point, so lets just say that I 'want' to run > leaded fuel and I would 'like' a lambda sensor. Here in South Africa we have leaded fuel also. Planning to move to unleaded soon. Anyway, my wife's Fiat Uno has Bosch Mono-jetronic, where a single injector is located in the throttle body. The system also contains a lamdba sensor. Every 20000 km they (the guys servicing the car) take out the sensor and clean it with a wire brush. Or so they say. I have been having cold start problems with the car lately (88000 km) but I doubt whether that would be related to a faulty lambda sensor. Anyway, it seems that either the sensor works fine with leaded, or that the FI system works fine with a gummed up sensor :-) Wouter >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:24:02 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16621; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:24:02 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16616; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:23:58 -0500 Received: from pm1_01.magicnet.net (pm1_01.magicnet.net [204.96.116.51]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA16895; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:45:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171345.IAA16895@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:08:34 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 01:43 PM 3/17/95 EST-11, DIY_EFI@xxx.edu wrote: >I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I >was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of >fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) Thats an unusual approach! The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. The dynamic range depends upon the PRF or engine speed. An 8 bit counter would work satisfactorily and most early computers used 8 bits but as 16 bits is almost as easy to get and use, more is better Peter >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:27:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16692; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:27:53 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16687; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:27:49 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA21791; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:27:46 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA06330; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:27:45 -0600 Message-Id: <9503171327.AA06330@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Mar 95 15:56:35 +1100." <199503170456.PAA25297@xxx.AU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 07:27:39 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought > a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly > possible given the chemistry of the sensors. There are a few aftermarket companies who have the gall to claim that they have "lead tolerant" oxygen sensors. Caveat Emptor. I've heard good things about the o2 sensor found in GM cars. The after- market sensors (Wells, Tomco) are rumored to be crap. Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 13:55:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16735; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:55:52 GMT Received: from arl-img-2.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA16730; Fri, 17 Mar 95 08:55:50 -0500 Received: by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.941228sam) id IAA19406; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:55:49 -0500 Date: 17 Mar 95 08:50:42 EST From: Eric Elliott <75771.3640@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Control selection Message-Id: <950317135041_75771.3640_BHQ87-1@xxx.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello, Still reading DIY_EFI archives, number of EFI & ignition questions growing, required reading list growing fast, need to study more C, not enough hours/day. An introduction might be a better way to start, but perhaps my questions will adequately describe me. How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart Sportsman heads? Given these problems: High MAP due to a cam of 208/221degrees @xxx.51" valve lift. Less ignition advance due to high MAP. Idle rough when MAP sensor connected. Old stock engine & ECU had needed more small throttle ignition advance. An amplifier was inserted between the MAP sensor and the ECU, referenced to 4.73 VDC (the MAP output @xxx. The result was worse idle, increasing oscillation till engine stopped. No load operation was smooth at 1200 RPM, but operation in gear was not tried. Tentative conclusions: ECU samples vary wildly @ idle due to long cam, ECU compensates, idle is worse. the added amplifier multiplied MAP variations by 1.3, increased idle instability. Would a high pass filter at the MAP sensor output, maybe 60 Hz cutoff, followed by a variable gain amplifier help? Am I on the right track? I have the often mentioned soldering iron, a Fluke 97 2 channel digital storage Oscilloscope, Fluke 87 DMM and a laptop computer. Any help will be appreciated, this is my daily driver while working in NY till June. Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if knock is sensed? Eric Elliott 800.827.5038 315.343.5657 75771.3640@xxx.com Permanent address: 68 Carol Lane, Batesville AR 72501.8023 Ph.501.251.3659 Temporary Address: #2, 67 Albany, Oswego NY 13126-3244 Ph. 315.343.5657 >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 18:09:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17740; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:09:06 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17735; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:09:02 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10315 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:56 -0500 Received: from koppa1.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA21693 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171808.AA21693@xxx.com> Received: from KOPPA1/P_MAIL by koppa1.delcoelect.com (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:09:19 EST From: "The Chou duo" Organization: Delco Electronics To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:08:41 EST Subject: Re: Lambda & Lead Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows v1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > One (self appointed) 'expert' has told me that heated sensors show no > appreciable degradation. I once met a SEO (self appointed expert) who told me that he had bought a special lead tolerant lambda sensor. I didn't think this was truly possible given the chemistry of the sensors. My theory is to choose a second hand sensor which is cheap and easy to get and then to replace it if there are any problems. So far, there haven't been any. :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Does anyone have any real evidence that heated sensors tolerate lead better? I've heard this claim from various sources, which usually sold heated O2 sensors, so they were far from impartial. In speaking with a O2 sensor guy here, he failed to see how a heated sensor could have any affect on their lead tolerance, as they'll have to be heated a heck of a lot to "burn off" any lead. The reason heated sensors are used in production is simply to allow closed loop op quicker, and the O2 sensor can now be put further away from the heat source. If anyone has performed any legit studies, I'd be very interested. *********************************************************************** Tom (or Nellie) Chou, nachou@xxx.com (317)451-7970 (Tom), 7619 (Nel), 317-868-9672 (evenings) Unless indicated otherwise, the opinions expressed here are personal & NOT an official statement of General Motors / Delco Electronics. *********************************************************************** >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 18:28:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17784; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:28:53 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17779; Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:28:50 -0500 Received: from kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (sv01_03.delcoelect.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA11968 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:45 -0500 Received: from koppa1.delcoelect.com by kocrsv01.delcoelect.com with SMTP id AA23303 (5.65c/IDA-1.5/CORE for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199503171828.AA23303@xxx.com> Received: from KOPPA1/P_MAIL by koppa1.delcoelect.com (Mercury 1.1); Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:29:07 EST From: "The Chou duo" Organization: Delco Electronics To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 13:28:42 EST Subject: Re: Control selection Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows v1.11 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? >How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart >Sportsman heads? >Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? >Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? >Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if >knock is sensed? First, what C3 TBI ECU are you using? This is an old GM ECM you're refering to isn't it? Dart Sportsman heads, you must be using this on a small block Chevy. You should talk to Ken Mosher about a ALDL laptop program. Mike Pitts has a prom burner program. All these guys are on the Buick Grand National mailing list. Email me if you want/need more info about it. Your last question, the ignition advance does not keep going up. There's a timing table that is used, and timing is retarded when knock occurs. *********************************************************************** Tom (or Nellie) Chou, nachou@xxx.com (317)451-7970 (Tom), 7619 (Nel), 317-868-9672 (evenings) Unless indicated otherwise, the opinions expressed here are personal & NOT an official statement of General Motors / Delco Electronics. *********************************************************************** >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 19:37:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17973; Fri, 17 Mar 95 19:37:39 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA17968; Fri, 17 Mar 95 14:37:35 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA16875 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:37:31 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA11956; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:36:47 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA229449299; Fri, 17 Mar 1995 14:41:39 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Mar 95 13:00:16 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter wrote: >At 01:43 PM 3/17/95 EST-11, DIY_EFI@xxx.edu wrote: >>I have been thinking about some of the issues regarding EFI, and I >>was wondering if anyone has some ideas about the dynamic range of >>fuel injectors: If it is around 48dB (ie. 256:1) > > >Thats an unusual approach! > >The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable >and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is >undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close >pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. The dynamic range depends >upon the PRF or engine speed. An 8 bit counter would work satisfactorily and >most early computers used 8 bits but as 16 bits is almost as easy to get and >use, more is better > >Peter I recommend reading the paper "Non-Linearity at Low Flow Rates from Electro-magnetic Fuel Injector" by Nomura and Irino, JSAE Review, Vol. 8, No. 4. This paper clears up many issues. It references an SAE paper I've never read but could be easier to find, namely "A General Model for Solenoid Fuel Injector Dynamics", by Smith and Spinweber, SAE Paper 800508, 1980. First, Peter is either talking about an injector type with which I am umfamiliar or his understanding of how injectors work is mistaken. Both saturated-circuit and peak-and-hold injectors open when current flows through them and then close when the current flow is stopped. They do not "toggle", i.e. they do not go open at an open pulse and then require a "close pulse" to close. In regards to the statements about 1.5 msec opening/closing times, this is an oversimplified view. The "open time" ("To") (and here I quote from Nomura and Irino) is the "Time elapsed in milliseconds to completely open after receiving the 'fuel ON' command". For some injectors To may be 1.5msec, but I have heard of others being in the sub-0.7msec range. Fuel is certainly flowing while the pintle is moving to its open postion, although there may be a delay between when the current begins to flow and when the pintle retracts appreciably. The "close time" ("Tc") is the "Time required in milliseconds to close the valve and shut off fuel flow after receiving the 'fuel OFF' command" (i.e. after the current flow is turned off). Again, fuel still flows during this time. The injector is assumed to be fully open before closing in measuring Tc. If the injector was not fully open, it takes less time for it to close. It is true that with sufficiently short pulses no pintle movement occurs; Nomura and Irino calculate (for a hypothetical peak-and-hold injector) that this happens with pulse widths below 0.5msec. The biggest factor here seems to be the simple fact that it takes time for current to build up in the solenoid due to inductance. The reason the "oversimplified" view is useful is that, if you never operate the injector below a certain minimum pulse width, you can consider the fuel flow during the To and Tc periods to be constant regardless of total pulse width. This lets you compute your flow with the simple equation f=mt+c, where c is the amount of fuel that flows during To and Tc, m is the flow rate, and t is the time the injector is commanded open beyond To. You can still operate the injector at smaller pulse widths, but you get into a non-linear region where f=mt+c just doesn't apply. Nomura and Irino's paper characterizes this non-linear region. They start off with an interesting graph of a "typical" injector. For this injector, the linear region covers pulse widths from about 1.5 msec to about 9.2 msec. As the pulse width grows larger than 9.2 msec, the flow rate in volume/unit time actually increases. As the pulse width shrinks smaller than 1.5 msec, the flow rate first decreases, then increases substantially, finally decreasing once more. In this graph, the amount of fuel injected with a 1msec pulse is perhaps only 25% of the amount injected with a 1.5msec pulse, but the amount injected with a 0.7msec pulse is actually almost 50% more than with a 1.5msec pulse. I wouldn't take the exact values too seriously, because I'm eyeballing them from a graph and this injector may have been chosen because it exaggerates the features. The point of the paper is that the shape of the pulse width vs. flow curve, including the non-linear regions, is a characteristic of all injectors (peak-and-hold and saturated-circuit). You'll need to read the paper to get all the info, but here's the summary: "Non-linearity at low flow rates can be divided into two ranges, each with its own cause. Non-linearity at the lowest flow range is caused by the bounce of the needle when it collides with the maximum lift stopper. At the next lowest flow range, non-linearity is a result of the effect of residual magnetic force after receiving the "fuel OFF" command." Getting back to the original question about dynamic range, Nomura and Irino reference the term "dynamic flow range" which is essentially defined as the linear range (actually, the range in which flow is no more than 5% off from the linearized flow curve; in the example above, this range appears to be 1.5-9.2msec). This isn't dynamic range in the sense of the original question. The original question basically asks "how many distinguishable pulse widths are there between 1.5 and 9.2 msec (or, for that matter, between 0 and a lot)?" You can imagine that pulse widths of 2.000000msec and 2.000001msec might not produce measurably different quantities of fuel due to mechanical noise or whatever. You can also imagine that even if the fuel injector did deliver measurably different quantities of fuel the difference would be utterly washed out in the "noise" of fuel condensing on the walls, evaportating out the ports, etc. Nomura and Irino don't address this issue. It is a function of the signal/noise ratio of the injector as the original questioner anticipated. I personally don't know the answer, either. I do know that other factors besides signal/noise ratio of the injector fuel flow rate (i.e. fuel pressure fluctuations, ineffective atomization/vaporization, manifold wetting, mass transport delays, mixing, charge dilution, etc.) will have an effect. My unsubstantiated guess is that those things will be the limiting factors in just how many bits you could meaningfully use to time pulse width, not noise due to the injector itself. Eight bits does work. Sixteen bits sounds fine to me. Thirty-two? Just how big are the molecules to begin with? ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Fri Mar 17 23:46:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18909; Fri, 17 Mar 95 23:46:03 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18904; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:46:01 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rpliP-000CwTC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 17:45 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:45:57 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199503171345.IAA16895@xxx.net> from "Peter Wales" at Mar 17, 95 08:08:34 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 984 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales writes: > The answer is that under 1.5 mS opening time the fuel flow is undefinable > and conversely it takes 1.5 mS to shut and during that time the fuel fuel is > undefinable. At 1 mS the injector does not open at all and if the close > pulse is 1 mS or less the injector won't close. Maybe for your injectors, not for the ones I used. My understanding is that those numbers will vary condiserably by injector model and how the injectors are driven. I believe our idle pulsewidth was right around 1.0mS on our 93 F-SAE car (600cc ZX-6D, Camden vane blower, EFI Technologies Performance-Series ECU, 31lb/hr Rochestor injectors (from a flex-fuel Corsica), running M85, rev-limiter set at 15,000rpm). -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 00:28:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19004; Sat, 18 Mar 95 00:28:51 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA18999; Fri, 17 Mar 95 19:28:48 -0500 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0rpmNo-000CuQC; Fri, 17 Mar 95 18:28 CST Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: Control selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Fri, 17 Mar 1995 18:28:44 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <950317135041_75771.3640_BHQ87-1@xxx.COM> from "Eric Elliott" at Mar 17, 95 08:50:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2539 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Eric Elliott writes: > > Still reading DIY_EFI archives, number of EFI & ignition questions growing, > required reading list growing fast, need to study more C, not enough hours/day. > An introduction might be a better way to start, but perhaps my questions will > adequately describe me. > How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? > How can the C3 TBI ECU do the increased timing advance needed with Dart > Sportsman heads? You keep mentioning spark, but don't mention fuel or idle air control... what are you doing with those? For spark, you are going to need to completely remap the spark table. The stock curve is going to be majorly wrong for your cam. Ignition advance needs to be a function of Load vs RPM, the table is MAP vs RPM, and your mods have totally changed the relation between MAP and Load. > Given these problems: > High MAP due to a cam of 208/221degrees @xxx.51" > valve lift. > Less ignition advance due to high MAP. > Idle rough when MAP sensor connected. > Old stock engine & ECU had needed more small throttle ignition advance. I'm not sure what table the spark runs off when the MAP is disconnected or what that looks like. Sounds like your advance is getting slammed backed when you hook it up. I'd bump the static timing at the distributor up 10 degrees and play some more. > Am I on the right track? I have the often mentioned soldering iron, a Fluke 97 2 > channel digital storage Oscilloscope, Fluke 87 DMM and a laptop computer. Any > help will be appreciated, this is my daily driver while working in NY till June. I think your waaaaaay off base, but someone like Dale would have a much more educated opinion. > Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Yes, it's called Diacom, put out by Rinda Technologies. $300 and well worth it. Don't have the contact info handy... > Is a program for analysis and modification of C3 PROM data available for PC? No. > Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if > knock is sensed? My understanding is that when knock passes the threshold level, the ECM slams the timing way back and slowly creeps it back up. You don't ever want to be hitting the knock sensor. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 15:50:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20136; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:50:54 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20131; Sat, 18 Mar 95 10:50:51 -0500 Received: from pm1_04.magicnet.net (pm1_04.magicnet.net [204.96.116.54]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18061; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:12:59 -0500 Message-Id: <199503181612.LAA18061@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:35:18 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Ed Lansinger wrote...[snip] I replied to the question in the manner I did because I thought the questioner was asking a wrongly phrased question. I do not believe the questioner considered the non linear region, but was simply asking whether an 8 bit counter would cover the entire fuelling requirements of the car given that the injector was correctly sized for maximum power. Please forgive me, Mr questioner, for not calling you by name, but a computer crash wiped out all of my archives and I can't recall the original posting. Please join in! Injectors are digital devices. They are either on or off! I agree that there are areas in the off /on transition and the on/off transition where they are non linear due to the fact that they are mechanical devices. I have always believed that manufacturers stay out of this area for fuel control because it is undefineable in its characteristics. You may be able to correct me on that matter. I am sure that there are injectors which can deliver full flow in under 1 mS and I am equally sure that there are injectors which will not be fully open in 2 mS. I was simply trying to explain that working in this area was IMHO undesireable and should be avoided. The 1.5 mS was a safe average for most injectors. Consider the sitaution when the engine is cranking. It requires a pulse of 1.5 mS or longer to inject some fuel (bear with me). Hence, we have an on pulse requirement of 1.5 mS. Now, when the injector is fully open at 6000 RPM the inejctor is powered continuously. Thus any reduction in fuel flow rate can be considered as switching the injector off, or pulsing it off, because as soon as the next injection comes it is going to be switched on again. Now it requires an off pulse of 1.5 mS. I was simplistically stating that it takes as long to close the injector as it does to open it and 1.5 mS is a good average time. Therefore switching it off for less than 1.5 mS will not reduce the fuel flow rate. OK? Now, I have ignored the non linear areas for simplicity and the fact that you should not be working it that area, so please leave that out of the argument. Finally, as to dynamic range, again ignoring the non linear area. In order to settle arguments, I like to take things to extremes as it tends to bring things into focus. So lets take the range of a)not starting the engine - (flow rate = 0) to b)running at 100% duty cycle at full power - (flow rate = full). Now thats a dynamic range of ... erm ... err .... quite a lot of dB :) If you look at it from the other aspect, if the full flow rate is say 500cc/min then what is the minimum flow rate, it depends on the duty cycle, again assuming the minimum pluse is in the non linear region. ie a 2mS pulse at 500 RPM injecting every second revolution gives a pulse of ..... not very many cc and a dynamic range of ....erm .... err .... lots of dB Now, the posting of Ed Lansinger sparks some interest from a commercial point of view. Why were the Japanese investigating the non linear region? Could it be that Japanese manufacturing skills allow them to make injectors which will accurately reproduce flow in the non linear region. If so is this a method of manufacturing in the Japanese tradition of just big enough/strong enough to do the job and no more. Can they save a yen by making an injector smaller? Will this bring down the price of Japanese cars? Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 15:54:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20150; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:54:17 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20145; Sat, 18 Mar 95 10:54:14 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA18105; Sat, 18 Mar 1995 11:16:24 -0500 Message-Id: <199503181616.LAA18105@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 10:38:43 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI At 05:45 PM 3/17/95 -0600, DIY_EFI@xxx.edu wrote: >Jonathan R. Lusky wrote: >Maybe for your injectors, not for the ones I used. My understanding is >that those numbers will vary condiserably by injector model and how the >injectors are driven. I believe our idle pulsewidth was right around >1.0mS on our 93 F-SAE car (600cc ZX-6D, Camden vane blower, EFI >Technologies Performance-Series ECU, 31lb/hr Rochestor injectors (from >a flex-fuel Corsica), running M85, rev-limiter set at 15,000rpm). > Well your injectors were wrongly set up for that car. They should have been set at 0.995 mS at idle :) Give me a break. The question didn't ask about any specific injectors, just injectors in general. Peter Wales >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:42:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20721; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:42:44 GMT Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20716; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:42:41 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:42:41 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <9503182042.AA20716@xxx.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Approved jeep.pass Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Subject: HELP! on C compiler PC for 68HC11 Am I going nuts or what? I downloaded the latest sc11 and the latest as11 from the motorola site for the PC (in ZIP format). Got it all un packed, and started trying some simple programs such as a "main" that just did a "and" of a value. Anyway, the problem is that NOWHERE is there provided a "run" package for the C complier! So when I ASM it, it wants "ccand" and such. Now I tried the one for the mac, called "xxc11run" or something like that, but it doesn't handle the stack properly and the "sc11" seems to generate for a different set of "run" code. Could someone PLEASE, PLEASE mail or post their "run" package for the sc11 compiler for the PC, and tell me what version you have and where you got it?? Does Motorola know this is a problem, or am I just too stupid (I spent nearly 5 hours trying to see if I could do ANYTHING with this, looking on the www site and all, and trying to modify the code myself to see what is wrong). HELP! Please! I want to get this thing going, and I'm stuck! (this is for the 68HC11) >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:47:50 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20880; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:47:50 GMT Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20875; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:47:48 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:47:48 -0500 From: jsg (John S Gwynne) Message-Id: <9503182047.AA20875@xxx.edu> Apparently-To: diy_efi Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >From owner-diy_efi Sat Mar 18 20:51:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20988; Sat, 18 Mar 95 20:51:57 GMT Received: from localhost.eng.ohio-state.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA20983; Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:51:54 -0500 Message-Id: <9503182051.AA20983@xxx.edu> To: diy_efi Aproved: jeep.pass Date: Sat, 18 Mar 95 15:51:53 -0500 From: John S Gwynne Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Date: Sat, 18 Mar 1995 01:24:44 -0800 (PST) From: Nate Subject: HELP! on C compiler PC for 68HC11 Am I going nuts or what? I downloaded the latest sc11 and the latest as11 from the motorola site for the PC (in ZIP format). Got it all un packed, and started trying some simple programs such as a "main" that just did a "and" of a value. Anyway, the problem is that NOWHERE is there provided a "run" package for the C complier! So when I ASM it, it wants "ccand" and such. Now I tried the one for the mac, called "xxc11run" or something like that, but it doesn't handle the stack properly and the "sc11" seems to generate for a different set of "run" code. Could someone PLEASE, PLEASE mail or post their "run" package for the sc11 compiler for the PC, and tell me what version you have and where you got it?? Does Motorola know this is a problem, or am I just too stupid (I spent nearly 5 hours trying to see if I could do ANYTHING with this, looking on the www site and all, and trying to modify the code myself to see what is wrong). HELP! Please! I want to get this thing going, and I'm stuck! (this is for the 68HC11) >From owner-diy_efi Sun Mar 19 23:28:35 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24065; Sun, 19 Mar 95 23:28:35 GMT Received: from shiva.trl.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24060; Sun, 19 Mar 95 18:28:00 -0500 Received: by shiva.trl.OZ.AU id AA13786 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for DIY_EFI@xxx.edu); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:27:51 +1100 From: Craig Pugsley Message-Id: <199503192327.AA13786@xxx.AU> Subject: My Booklist.. To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:27:49 +1100 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL20] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2182 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, Here is my good deed for the day: After several years of collecting info on EFI (for the purpose of DIYing my EFI :-), And after coming against the typical 'The sensors take the readings and the computer does the calculations and the injectors put in the fuel' explaination time after time, I've finally found some books that are semi-usefull: The BOSCH books (previously mentioned on this group), of which there are TWO and another book on fuel injection: 1/ BOSCH Automotive handbook, 3rd edition (Blue cover), 852 pages Robert Bentley ISBN number 0-8376-0330-7 SAE ISBN number 1-56091-372-X I beleive the two pubilshers publish exactly the same book. This book is an 'Overall' Automotive reference. Worth buying, but the EFI content is fairly small. (I have the Robert Bentley version) 2/ BOSCH Automotive electronics handbook, ?? edition (Dark red cover), 350 pages. ISBN 0-89883-509-7 Not 100% sure who the publisher of this is, I think the SAE and VDI (germany) publish this. Lots more about Bosch EFI systems. 3/ Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications, By Jeff Hartman. Publisher Motorbooks international, PO Box 1, Osceola, WI 54020 ph 1-800-826-6600 (in the US), Reccomended Price $19.95 US. ISBN 0-87938-743-2 (I paid $AUS 34.95 from McGills in Melbourne for those in AUS) Probably the best value for money book on EFI. The book has snippets of everything - If it had detail on all the subjects it mentioned it would be the definitive reference. The Audience is intended as street rodders mainly, but there are good bits and peices for the DIY_EFI'er - Reccomended reading. There are several bosch books on each type of bosch injection, but they do not cover much more detail than the automotive electronics book, and are expensive ($Aus 20 each ~= $US 15 each). I have also found FORD training manuals to be usefull, as I have been able to borrow a freind's copy, but I'm not sure if they are readily available to the public. Apart from these references, virtually all EFI books that I've seen are 'how to fix brand X EFI systems' books. Cheers, Craig. >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 05:48:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24523; Mon, 20 Mar 95 05:48:45 GMT Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24518; Mon, 20 Mar 95 00:48:42 -0500 Received: by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.941228sam) id AAA26962; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 00:48:41 -0500 Date: 20 Mar 95 00:45:19 EST From: Eric Elliott <75771.3640@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter Message-Id: <950320054518_75771.3640_BHQ50-1@xxx.COM> Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello, Fluke is advertising soft & hardware to connect the 97 scopemeter to a PC. More details unknown. Is this just an interface to the FO printer output, or a way to control the scopemeter? Could be a great way to log at least 2 D or A inputs or outputs while driving. Anyone familiar with this package? Eric Elliott >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 06:10:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24580; Mon, 20 Mar 95 06:10:45 GMT Received: from curly.cc.swin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA24575; Mon, 20 Mar 95 01:09:30 -0500 Received: from romulus.mm.swin.edu.au by curly.cc.swin.edu.au (5.65c/1.34) id AA24409; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:06:48 +1100 Received: From MECHMAN/WORKQUEUE by romulus.mm.swin.edu.au via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950320170629.384; 20 Mar 95 17:06:55 -1100 Message-Id: From: "Andrew Dennison" Organization: Swinburne University To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:06:17 EST-11 Subject: Re: Injector Dynamic Range Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.2 (pr2) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: > I replied to the question in the manner I did because I thought the > questioner was asking a wrongly phrased question. [chomp] > Please > forgive me, Mr questioner, for not calling you by name, but a computer crash > wiped out all of my archives and I can't recall the original posting. Please > join in! Ok, I will! What my question was effectively asking was: If you have a pulse of, say, 1.5ms what is the noise (repeatability) associated with this pulse? Is it 1.5ms +/- 0.1ms, 0.01ms or 0.001ms?? If it is 0.1ms and we have a (design) maximum pulse width of 10ms then the timer only needs a resolution of 100 steps (approx. 7 bit resolution or 42dB). OR: 100ms pulse with 0.01 resolution: 10000 steps (14bits or 84dB). This argument comes from normal Signal to Noise calculations, you could also use this to decide if you need a 10bit A/D on your MAP sensor or if 8 bits is enough. Anyway, thanks Ed for your reference to the SAE paper and interesting discussion of injector dynamics, and thanks to all the others who took the time to answer. Andrew ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate The CIM Centre Melbourne, AUSTRALIA Phone: +61 3 214 8296 Fax: +61 3 214 4949 WWW: http://cim.mm.swin.edu.au/welcome.html >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 14:01:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25128; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:01:45 GMT Received: from gw1.att.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25123; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:01:42 -0500 Received: from uscbu.ih.att.com by ig1.att.att.com id AA10526; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:01:54 EST Received: by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA23065; Mon, 20 Mar 95 07:58:48 CST Received: from usgp1.ih.att.com by uscbu.ih.att.com (4.1/EMS-1.1.1 SunOS) id AA23033; Mon, 20 Mar 95 07:58:39 CST Received: by usgp1.ih.att.com (5.0/EMS-1.1 Sol2) id AA07128; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 08:01:53 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 08:01:53 -0600 Message-Id: <9503201401.AA07128@xxx.com> From: bohdan@xxx.com (Bohdan L Bodnar) To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter Content-Type: text Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI There are several packages, many made by other vendors, which allow interfacing a Fluke Scopemeter to a PC. Although I do not own this equipment, I've seen it used when analyzing weird injector problems. Some features of the stuff I've seen: - crosshairs allowing you measure delta time and voltage - magnification - waveform printing - scaling If there's sufficient interest, I can dig up vendors' names, approximate prices, etc. E-mail only, please. Bohdan Bodnar bohdan.l.bodnar@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 14:30:54 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25229; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:30:54 GMT Received: from access4.digex.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25224; Mon, 20 Mar 95 09:30:21 -0500 Received: by access4.digex.net id AA16127 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@xxx.edu); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:28:13 -0500 From: Bill Lewis Message-Id: <199503201428.AA16127@xxx.net> Subject: Questions (mostly ignition) To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:28:13 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1818 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been wondering about a few things... 1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? 2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or would it be better in terms of time? 3) Many modern micro controlled engines have discarded the distributor entirely in favor of multiple dual-output coils. In a dual-coil system, aren't the extra sparks in the exhaust-intake overlap period dangerous on a engine with radical cam timing? Why does the current Porsche 911 use still use a distributor? 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically back off the timing? 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? 7) After you decide you need a particular size injector, say 21 lbs., how do you go about finding a part number or source for it? 7) What size injectors are used in the Chevy 305 and 350 Tuned Port systems? Thanks for any consideration.../Bill -- Bill Lewis - wrl@xxx.net >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 16:16:08 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25675; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:16:08 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25670; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:16:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201616.AA25670@xxx.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA20426; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:16:02 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Control selection To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 9:16:02 MST In-Reply-To: <199503171828.AA23303@xxx.com>; from "The Chou duo" at Mar 17, 95 1:28 pm Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >How can the C3 TBI ECU do a smooth idle with large roller cam? You'll need to change the fast/slow MAP filter coefficients and mode coefficients. That's a start. You may need to play with the IAC coefficients, but the code was not designed to compensate for a big cam, so you may have to live with a slightly rough idle. Maybe raise the idle speeds. > >Is an interface and program available to use the ALDL with a laptop PC? Yes, but you can't see that much on a C3. Mostly just sensor readings. > >Does the C3 optimize ignition advance for power/# of fuel or only retard if > >knock is sensed? Retard only, in general. However, there is a premium fuel flag which is set during half of the ESC diagnostic. It may or may not be enabled, depending on the code version. I believe most applications have this flag disabled. There are many code versions that run in a C3 ECM, and each PROM map is majorly different. I could point you to the right locations if you were driving a 1989 through 1992 GMC pickup truck with a hydraulic transmssion and a 350 or 305 engine. In any case, the C3 ECM is very limited in memory, and often has only enough RAM (like every byte is used) and enough ROM (30 to 40 bytes free). The serial port is slow and uni-directional. The best way I've found to figure it out is to read out the EPROM and masked ROM, and start disassembling. That's how most of us on this mailing list do it. If you have the same code version, code will start at $d617, where the EPROM is mapped from $d000 to $dfff. Generally, there are few PROM editors around on a PC because of the large numbers of different code versions around. I haven't seen any, although there may be some for certain versions of the code. -Dale >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 16:52:00 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25870; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:52:00 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA25865; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:51:57 -0500 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07978; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:54:44 -0700 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61054; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:50:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:37:36 -700 (MST) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) To: Bill Lewis Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199503201428.AA16127@xxx.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, Bill Lewis wrote: > While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been > wondering about a few things... > > 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? AHHH .. Finally a question I can answer ;) ... Motronic systems first compute the required ign. adv. thru a set of maps which are basically functions of conditions like rpm, load, engine temp, and battery voltage .. once the ECU has figured out what it wants to do, it sets a single variable, and lets the interrupt routines of the uProc. determine "how many teeth" should pass before firing the coil, injectors etc etc etc ... It really just counts teeth ... well, HALF teeth actually, both on the rising and falling edges ... so if your car has 130 teeth (you're SURE it's not 116 ?!?) ... then the resolution of the spark is ... 360/(130*2) or 1.38 degrees ... Some cars use a 60 tooth sensor wheel, that is missing 2 teeth .... On these cars, the ECU first counts teeth, and then counts TIME until the spark is needed to attain a resolution of 0.75 degrees or so .. > 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? Depends ... some 3, some 6 degrees, some more than that ..... But the basic premise is to retard a BUNCH and then slowly crank the knock adaption to timing back up .... eventually, the system should find a happy medium ... in performance work it is BAD to hit the knock sensor ... you can FEEL the power loss ... > 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? Cranking speed is anything over about 10rpms and below idle In fact, many ECU's detect "start" mode by hanging in a loop until the "teeth" fly by within a certain time and then set a start bit ... This bit is then cleared when the rpms reach a certain temp dependent preset rpm which is usualy a bit below the idle ... Jim Conforti >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 17:29:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26212; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:29:51 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26207; Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:29:47 -0500 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0rqlGs-000vIsC; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29 CST Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0rqlGo-000uN3C; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29 CST Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:29:29 CST Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:22:23 CST From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@xxx.com Subject: re: Re: ALDL To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI sdbartho@xxx.com Wrote: | | | | > A friend and I have been trying to come up with a way to | capture the data | > coming from the ALDL connector on GM cars. | | What kind of GM car? Depending on the year, make, and model, the | data rate | is quite different. | | > We have the Diacom software from | > Rinda Technologies but we want something simpler. We have found | out how to | > trigger the data flow by bridging the A-B terminals with | different amounts of | > resistance. | | Is this what the Diacom does? I thought they sent out the proper | ALDL mode | request commands to get the ECM to send back the data it wanted. I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the line, the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. I have some info on the slow (150 baud?) stream used in older S-10s, Suburbans, etc. from Dan Furgason who is also on this list. I can send it if anyone is interested. As far as the 8192 stream goes, that is a topic that comes up here, on the hotrod list, and on the corvette list regularly, as far as I know no-one has decoded it themselves or pried the info out of GM. Oh yeah, Ken Mosher on the GN/Ttype list has written a program that reads the ALDL info for that car. It is the slow data stream, and so might work for other slow stream cars. | | I'm working on a similar project for the '91-'93 Syclone/Typhoon, but I | haven't got it all working yet. Is that an 8192 stream? --steve | | | Dig | sdbartho@xxx.com | | >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 17:37:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26338; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:37:58 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA26333; Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:37:54 -0500 Received: from pm1_03.magicnet.net (pm1_03.magicnet.net [204.96.116.53]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18525; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:37:26 -0500 Message-Id: <199503201737.MAA18525@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:22:08 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI The more I read questions from people in this group, the more impressed I get with the different way of looking at things people seem to have. At 09:28 AM 3/20/95 -0500, Bill wrote: >While trying to decide what approach is best for my project, I've been >wondering about a few things... > >1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference > between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? When reprogramming vehicles for power, the biggest effect comes at peak BMEP usually around 4000RPM. At that point, changes of about 1 degree affect the performance. Above and below that point, changes of 1-2 degrees are needed to do anything. This is on full throttle only of course. > >2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture > time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC > was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. > > Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? Could the anser be that you need to have the ignition advance increase upto peak BMEP and then holding it is good enough? > Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or > would it be better in terms of time? Good question! >4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? I can only answer the last part. No. Consider the 4 tooth unit fitted to Weber Marelli systems. The tooth at 90 deg BTDC is the one that the CPU waits for, then it triggers the counter with the exact timing delay in it. Which one triggers the timer in the Bosch system I do not know. >5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? 8 Deg The other questions, other people will be able to answer better than I Peter >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:04:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27106; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:04:03 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27101; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:04:00 -0500 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06898; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:06:48 -0700 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76753; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:02:49 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:02:13 -700 (MST) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've got a question, maybe you can answer for me .. Generically .. (as in overall) Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns slower, but produces more power ... Reason being .. I working on an EPROM (Stage 2) for the 1995 BMW M3 and I'm finding that adding fuel increases power ... I'm getting ready to add some more spark advance... but want to make sure that, at least theoretically, this is the right tact to be taking ... (Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) Jim Conforti >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:19:17 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27231; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:19:17 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27226; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:19:13 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201919.AA27226@xxx.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA03745; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:19:11 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: re: Re: ALDL To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:19:11 MST In-Reply-To: sdbartho@xxx.com Wrote: > | > I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, > since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the line, > the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different > resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the > 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. That sets the ECM diags mode, the serial data mode can be set independantly of the ECM diags mode. Normally they are linked. The 8192 ALDL setup indeed uses bidirectional data on the one line.... it's a master- slave protocol, with the ECM being the slave, and the diag tool the master. They do this by Hi-Z buffers on the line (or by using an open- collector output stage, depending on who you talk to). I believe some test modes change the data stream with the ALDL resistance, but far more than that is accessable. Via this bidirectional data line, you can also enable and disable various test/diag modes... far more than the resistance of the A-B line. Via the ALDL connector, development versions of the ECM can re-program the EEPROM while driving, as well as putting in a fast watch on one or two variables instead of the whole list. This allows you to look at things like the O2 PID controller at the speed it actually runs at (many Hz). I've seen enough of the code for a late-model vette to see what you can do, but not how to do it. It would take me longer to figure it out than I feel like putting into that project. > As far as the 8192 stream goes, that is a topic that comes up here, on the > hotrod list, and on the corvette list regularly, as far as I know no-one has > decoded it themselves or pried the info out of GM. It's a lot of work, and for the same amount of work that goes into reverse-engineering an ECM to read out the data in a meaningful manner, you can do your own entire ECM project. It took me two years to get the C3 ECM (old data stream) figured out enough to be able to read the data and change all of the tables and constants. -Dale >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:22:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27328; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:22:53 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27315; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:22:47 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA15486 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:22:40 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA00699; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:21:40 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA140367569; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:26:09 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 11:55:39 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Injector Dynamic Range To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Peter Wales wrote: >Injectors are digital devices. They are either on or off! I agree that there >are areas in the off /on transition and the on/off transition where they are >non linear due to the fact that they are mechanical devices. I have always >believed that manufacturers stay out of this area for fuel control because >it is undefineable in its characteristics. You may be able to correct me on >that matter. Even "digital" electronic devices aren't "on" or "off", as my Computer Hardware Design professor once eloquently explained. Everything is analog. Hopefully, you can find operating areas (supply voltages within certain limits, switching times in a certain range, etc., all applicable to digital switches as well as injectors) over which you can make the simplifying assumption that the device exists in only one of two states called "on" and "off". It's important to understand the limitations of these simplifying assumptions in order to be able to stay out of trouble. It's also important if you want to explore and exploit what lies beyond the boundaries of these limitations. If the non-linear region of an injector were indeed "undefinable in its characteristics", then there's little more to be said. Herein lies the significance of the work done by Nomura and Irino in their paper ("Non-Linearity at Low Flow Rates from Electro-magnetic Fuel Injector", JSAE Review Vol. 8, No. 4, 1987 for those just tuning in). They have characterized the performance of injectors in this region, surmized a physical explanation for it, and supported their ideas with a mathematical model based on the assumed physical model that produces results which correlate well with the observed phenomena. Now that this knowledge is out, there's no need to limit our understanding of injector dynamics to the traditional "on/off" view, even though we may still choose to use this simplified model. I don't know (and if I did I probably couldn't comment) if the OEM's are exploiting this non-linear region. I can say for myself that when I was developing PCM's at school I stayed out of the non-linear region because it's much simpler to deal with. >I am sure that there are injectors which can deliver full flow in under 1 mS >and I am equally sure that there are injectors which will not be fully open >in 2 mS. I was simply trying to explain that working in this area was IMHO >undesireable and should be avoided. The 1.5 mS was a safe average for most >injectors. Certainly, I think Peter would agree with me that knowledge of the actual injector "on" time is extremely useful. I used the traditional 1.5ms "safe average" and later found it was way off for the two different injectors I used. The 1.5ms assumption, although it got the vehicle running, required a more complicated fueling algorithm for satisfactory operation than when I used the correct "on" time. In my case, the 1.5ms "safe assumption" caused me to be almost 100% off in my low-load fueling. I would encourage people to take the extra step and either get the correct information from the supplier or measure it themselves, because it's worth the effort. >Consider the sitaution when the engine is cranking. It requires a pulse of >1.5 mS or longer to inject some fuel (bear with me). Hence, we have an on >pulse requirement of 1.5 mS. Now, when the injector is fully open at 6000 >RPM the inejctor is powered continuously. Thus any reduction in fuel flow >rate can be considered as switching the injector off, or pulsing it off, >because as soon as the next injection comes it is going to be switched on >again. Now it requires an off pulse of 1.5 mS. I was simplistically stating >that it takes as long to close the injector as it does to open it and 1.5 mS >is a good average time. Therefore switching it off for less than 1.5 mS will >not reduce the fuel flow rate. OK? Now, I have ignored the non linear areas >for simplicity and the fact that you should not be working it that area, so >please leave that out of the argument. I thank Peter for clarifying that when he wrote about "off pulses" he was simply describing the time when current flow to the injector is shut off, a different yet equivalent way of looking at things. Definitely, a small enough "off pulse" would not affect fuel flow. I do not disagree with 1.5ms as a ballpark figure. I know that the open and close times are likely to be different from each other, because the physical situations are not symmetrical, but the total open time + close time should be practically the same regardless of pulse width if the pulse width is above a minimum. Incidentally, Nomura and Irino show that the time it takes for the injector to close after the current to it is shut off varies a lot depending on how much current was flowing through the injector at the time. A graph in the above paper shows a closing time reduction on the order of 30-50% from maximum near a particular current level. This phenomenon is present with both saturated circuit and peak-and-hold drivers. As another aside, an engineer at Bosch warned me against running injectors at 100% duty cycle for any appreciable period of time. Not that it can't be done, it's just that they overheat and begin to operate erratically. 75%-80% is more like it and is supposedly the proper figure to use when sizing the injector. >Finally, as to dynamic range, [snip] Peter's discussion describes the minimum and maximum pulse widths to which the injector is required to respond. This is the first half of the dynamic range issue. Andrew Dennison additionally addressed the second half with his discussion of the precision of measurement: >What my question was effectively asking was: >If you have a pulse of, say, 1.5ms what is the noise (repeatability) >associated with this pulse? Is it 1.5ms +/- 0.1ms, 0.01ms or >0.001ms?? >If it is 0.1ms and we have a (design) maximum pulse width of 10ms >then the timer only needs a resolution of 100 steps (approx. 7 bit >resolution or 42dB). >OR: >100ms pulse with 0.01 resolution: 10000 steps (14bits or 84dB). > >This argument comes from normal Signal to Noise calculations, you >could also use this to decide if you need a 10bit A/D on your MAP >sensor or if 8 bits is enough. At some point the noise in the system will make indistinguishable the actual flow resulting from pulse widths of nearly identical lengths. You can use statistical methods to determine whether one pulse width truly delivers a different flow volume than another pulse width. Pursuing this analysis across the entire range of minimum and maximum pulse widths looking for pulse widths that generate statistically different flow volumes will lead you to a finite list of pulse widths that are distinguishable. Counting them up will tell you how many bits you need to enumerate them. As Andrew points out, if there are 10000 distinguishable pulse widths, you can assign a unique binary number to each using numbers of no less than 14 bits. You can simplify the process if you know, say, the maximum standard deviation (a measure of repeatability) of flow volumes at the worst case pulse width. The larger this standard deviation, the fewer bits you can use (or will benefit from using). Now I remember! While at school I got some information about standard deviation of fuel flows as a function of pulse width for a particular injector. I'm not sure I can find it anymore. What I remember is that the standard deviation of fuel delivered at a particular pulse width was "very small" for pulses in the normal operating region and increased significantly at the low end. If I dig up the exact figures I'll post them, but no promises because I really have no idea where they are anymore. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 19:26:48 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27392; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:26:48 GMT Received: from eigen.ee.ualberta.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27387; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:26:45 -0500 Message-Id: <9503201926.AA27387@xxx.edu> Received: by eigen.ee.ualberta.ca (1.38.193.4/15.6) id AA04252; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:26:39 -0700 From: Dale Ulan Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:26:39 MST In-Reply-To: ; from "Jim Conforti" at Mar 20, 95 12:02 (noon) Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85] Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns > slower, but produces more power ... Yes... Since engine power is air-limited (not fuel-limited), for maximum power, you want to use up all of the air that gets ingested by the engine. So you richen up the mixture until the best tradeoff of over-rich power 'loss' and air utilization give you maximum power. -Dale >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 20:27:51 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27945; Mon, 20 Mar 95 20:27:51 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA27936; Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:27:38 -0500 Received: by gold.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 20 Mar 95 14:26:00 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:25:59 -0600 (CST) From: Matthew L Franklin Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 20 Mar 1995, Jim Conforti wrote: > I've got a question, maybe you can answer for me .. > > Generically .. (as in overall) > > Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... > > I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns > slower, but produces more power ... There is a fuel/air ratio for optimum flame speed. Too lean, it slows; too rich it slows. I was guessing it was around 10 to 20% rich. That is pretty close to max power for liquid fueled spark ignition engines. > (Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) You certainly don't have to read the whole book. :-) Even in an I.C. engine class we cover 20% of what's in there if we're lucky. See pages 402 to 403, particularly Figure 9-25 at the bottom of page 403. Keep in mind that the figure is for a laminar flame, and which is not exact for the turbulent flame typical in an engine, but it is a clue and a start and not a bad guess for guessing the effect of changing parameters. A combustion chemist will probably want to correct what I'm saying here. I only know enough to be dangerous. Later, Matt >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 21:17:20 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28509; Mon, 20 Mar 95 21:17:20 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28504; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:17:08 -0500 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA22188 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:17:01 -0500 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA03643; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:16:18 -0500 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA161974446; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 16:20:46 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:41:12 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Mixture and Ignition ... To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jim Conforti wrote: >Does a richer mixture burn faster or slower than a leaner mixture ... > >I *think* that (up to a certain point) that a richer mixture burns >slower, but produces more power ... Quoting from Heywood: "Both flame development and burning angles show a minimum for slightly rich mixtures ([phi is approximately] 1.2) and increase significantly as the mixture becomes substantially leaner than stoichiometric. .. Faster burning engines (which have higher turbulence) are less sensitive to changes in mixture composition, pressure, and temperature than are slower burning engines (which have lower turbulence)." -Heywood, John B., _Internal_Combustion_Engine_Fundamentals_, McGraw-Hill, 1988, p. 395 In other words, richer (up to a point) apparently burns faster (smaller burn angle), not slower. The minimum burn time appears to be right around the max power air/fuel ratio (phi about 1.2). That doesn't necessarily tell you not to bother advancing the spark after adding fuel. Spark advance may have been chosen based on factors other than power, such as expected gasoline quality or anticipated combustion chamber deposit build-up, all of which would require the engine to run retarded from MBT in the first place. >(Yes, I need to read Heywood ... I know!) Run, do not walk, to buy his book. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 The opinions expressed above are my own, not my employer's. ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 21:35:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA28579; Mon, 20 Mar 95 21:35:57 GMT Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA28574; Mon, 20 Mar 95 16:35:39 -0500 Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA20851; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 15:35:35 -0600 Received: by star.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA11141; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 15:35:35 -0600 Message-Id: <9503202135.AA11141@xxx.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.5.3 12/28/94 To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: ALDL In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 20 Mar 95 12:19:11 MST." <9503201919.AA27226@xxx.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 95 15:35:28 -0600 From: sdbartho@xxx.com X-Mts: smtp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > > sdbartho@xxx.com Wrote: > > | > > I don't think there is a way to send commands to the ECM on the ALDL system, > > since there is only one data line. The ECM transmits it's info over the li > > the dash listens in for some info it needs. As far as I know the different > > resistances on the A-B line set the different modes. This applies to the > > 8192 baud stream in late model corvettes, others I don't know. This was Steve's reply to my message, just to clear up some threading con- fusion. > That sets the ECM diags mode, the serial data mode can be set independantly > of the ECM diags mode. Normally they are linked. The 8192 ALDL > setup indeed uses bidirectional data on the one line.... it's a master- > slave protocol, with the ECM being the slave, and the diag tool the > master. They do this by Hi-Z buffers on the line (or by using an open- > collector output stage, depending on who you talk to). Ahh, so the ALDL _output_ line is bidirectional? The info I have said that there was an input/output protocol, but wasn't really clear about which line was the input. The impression I got was that the Diag input was also the ALDL serial input. Dig sdbartho@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Mon Mar 20 22:47:32 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29113; Mon, 20 Mar 95 22:47:32 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29104; Mon, 20 Mar 95 17:47:29 -0500 Received: from pm1_07.magicnet.net (pm1_07.magicnet.net [204.96.116.57]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA28062; Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:47:13 -0500 Message-Id: <199503202247.RAA28062@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 17:31:39 -0500 To: DIY_EFI, DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Mixture and Ignition ... Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Let me answer this question from a different point of view. I don't know if a lean flame burns quicker than a a rich one, but, we find that generally peak power output comes at 4% CO. With Bosch systems you need to add 12% to the fuelling numbers to get close to this ( wonderfully consistant the Germans) Then you need to add 10 to 15% to the timing numbers to get the timing close. That one has to be done on a dyno to optimise it because the numbers are less around peak PMEP Peter >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 00:24:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29629; Tue, 21 Mar 95 00:24:37 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29624; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:24:16 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA09884 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:24:12 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:21:54 +1100 Message-Id: <199503210021.LAA28279@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Questions (mostly ignition) To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:21:53 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503201428.AA16127@xxx.net> from "Bill Lewis" at Mar 20, 95 09:28:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4959 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Guys, Bill writes, > > 1) Just how sensitive is the ignition timing? Can you tell a difference > between 1 or 2 degrees? What about 1/2 a degree? > Bosch (in ther M1.7 Motronic, as used on our current Lancia research engine) have a 1 deg timing resolution which is clearly visible when using a timing light on a calibrated flywheel scale. Ford (EECIV and EECV, as used on the Falcon 4.0) have a 0.125 (that's right one eighth of a degree) timing resolution. Obviously this is significantly less than the +/- 5 deg combustion variability that conventional engines have. The important point is to optimise the average timing. Personally, I've resorted to 45/128 deg (~0.35 deg) resolution as a suitable comprimise between accuraccy and eight bit implementation. As Peter explained, there is little noticeable difference on the dyno for changes less than one or two degrees and even less on the road. > 2) I've always thought the whole idea of spark advance was to give the mixture > time to get really burning. And that the idea of advance in degrees BTDC > was an artifact of the distributor - what you really wanted was time BTDC. > > Why do centrifugal advance curves typically max out well below the redline? > Do we really want the ignition point in terms of crankshaft degrees, or > would it be better in terms of time? > There are two primary factors which govern the ignition advance. Firstly, the a constant time to burn results in a linear increase in advance as a function of rpm. Secondly, higher rpms and loads lead to higher turbulence and faster burn times. Thus the ignition advance should initially increase with rpm and then taper off and even decrease as the engine speed increases further. As a function of load (manifold pressure for example) the timing should decrease, ultimately being limited by engine knock and exhaust temperature. > 3) Many modern micro controlled engines have discarded the distributor entirely > in favor of multiple dual-output coils. In a dual-coil system, aren't > the extra sparks in the exhaust-intake overlap period dangerous on a engine > with radical cam timing? Why does the current Porsche 911 use still use > a distributor? > Radical cams have been known to cause problems with dual fire ignition systems. One thing to note is that the mixture (combustible or not) at the point of ignition during the exhaust stroke is not under compression and will have an extremely high concentration of exhaust in the mixture diluting it. It's hard enough to get a stable ignition at the best of times. > 4) Do Bosch Motronic systems that take pulses off the flywheel ring gear count > these pulses and trigger events at a particular tooth number? Are these > pulses used to get a better idea of the engines acceleration? A 911 has a > 130 tooth ring gear. That's a little less than 3 degrees per tooth. > Do they use a software PLL to synthesize 'extra' teeth? > Our test engine uses a 60-2 tooth wheel at the front of the crank. The Bosch system would have to interpolate between them to achieve 1 deg timing resolution. I personally use a three tooth crank wheel to minimise the processing overhead on my six cylinder. (2 for a four cyl and 4 for an eight) This is similar to the six vane hall effect distributor system used on pre 94 Ford Falcons (EECIV) and works very well. > 5) When the knock sensor kicks in, how much do factory systems typically > back off the timing? > Bosch systems - 3 deg backoff and then 0.5 degree advance per cycle until the map value is reached or knock is detected again. > 6) What is a good minimum RPM for a system? i.e. what is cranking speed? > I use a 60 rpm minimum on my system. 60 - 300 rpm is cranking and the first map point is 500 rpm. With EFI and electronic ignition, my Jaguar (as unreliable as some people think it may be) will happily idle below 400 rpm and pull from 500 in fifth gear. > 7) After you decide you need a particular size injector, say 21 lbs., how do > you go about finding a part number or source for it? > > 7) What size injectors are used in the Chevy 305 and 350 Tuned Port systems? > I generally tend to use which ever injectors I can find that come off a similarily sized OEM engine. Luckily, in a lab that does a lot of alternative fuel research, brand new petrol injectors are easy to find. :-) Robert 'if only the rest of the car was as reliable as the EFI' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 00:33:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA29670; Tue, 21 Mar 95 00:33:33 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA29665; Mon, 20 Mar 95 19:33:27 -0500 Received: from biscuit-tin.ee.mu.OZ.AU by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU with SMTP id AA10362 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:33:23 +1000 unauthenticated (rfc931-sender: unauthenticated@xxx.AU) From: robert dingli Received: (dingli@xxx.edu; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:31:07 +1100 Message-Id: <199503210031.LAA28308@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: I-O capture W/Fluke Scopemeter To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 11:31:07 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <950320054518_75771.3640_BHQ50-1@xxx.COM> from "Eric Elliott" at Mar 20, 95 00:45:19 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1660 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Eric, > > Hello, > Fluke is advertising soft & hardware to connect the 97 scopemeter to a PC. More > details unknown. Is this just an interface to the FO printer output, or a way > to control the scopemeter? Could be a great way to log at least 2 D or A inputs > or outputs while driving. Anyone familiar with this package? > > Eric Elliott I was lucky enough to realize how usefull the PM97 would be a couple of years ago. Looking back, I wouldn't bother doing any EFI work without one. I bought the RS232 optical interface and have used it to print out waveforms and to log data. I didn't spend the then many hundreds of dollars for the Phillips PC software. The RS232 adaptor comes with a hefty instruction manual (which is incidently bigger than the PM97 manual) which explains how to send and recieve commands. It's all quite basic. Phillips also advertise an 'automotive kit' which basically includes lots of nice sensors such as inductive pickups. I don't think that there is any software changes but if there was I would be happy to find out about them. I'd like to duplicate the multiple high tension signals that you average workshop oscilliscope can display. Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 06:28:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01623; Tue, 21 Mar 95 06:28:52 GMT Received: from kcbbs.gen.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01618; Tue, 21 Mar 95 01:28:42 -0500 Received: from localhost (steveb@xxx.5) id SAA14115; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:19:08 +1200 From: Steve Baldwin Message-Id: <199503210619.SAA14115@xxx.nz> Subject: Who's Heywood ? To: diy_efi Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:19:07 +1200 (NZST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 466 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I've seen a few references to 'Heywood' in recent posts. Can somebody give me some more information (ISBN, $$$$, etc). I recently got the Bosch Handbook mentioned here and it is excellent. Even the wife was impressed. I have the red book on order as well. Bosch also have a series of booklets on a variety of subjects, some of which look interesting. Does anybody have any experience of these ? Are they up to the same standard as the handbook ? Thanks, Steve. >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 07:08:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01691; Tue, 21 Mar 95 07:08:24 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01686; Tue, 21 Mar 95 02:08:19 -0500 Received: by mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU id AA01934 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for DIY_EFI@xxx.edu); Tue, 21 Mar 1995 17:08:15 +1000 (rfc931-sender: @) From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199503210708.AA01934@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Who's Heywood ? To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 18:08:15 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199503210619.SAA14115@xxx.nz> from "Steve Baldwin" at Mar 21, 95 06:19:07 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 708 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Steve, > > I've seen a few references to 'Heywood' in recent posts. > Can somebody give me some more information (ISBN, $$$$, etc). > Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals John, B. Heywood McGraw-Hill 1988 ISBN 0-07-100499-8 Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 07:36:16 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA01725; Tue, 21 Mar 95 07:36:16 GMT Received: from naitgate.nait.ab.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA01720; Tue, 21 Mar 95 02:36:12 -0500 Received: by naitgate.nait.ab.ca (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38937; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 00:29:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 00:28:56 -0700 (MST) From: Wayne Wolinski Subject: ALDL-PC To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Can anyone tell me how to contact Rinda Technologies to get info/pricing on the Diacom product? Are there any other products on the market for interfacing PC's to factory engine controllers (including late-model units) for extracting diagnostic information? Thanks - any info muchly appreciated! Wayne Wolinski Northern Alberta Institute of Technology Edmonton, Alberta, Canada >From owner-diy_efi Tue Mar 21 13:46:26 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA02353; Tue, 21 Mar 95 13:46:26 GMT Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper resend -p bulk -M 10000 -l Diy_Efi -f Diy_Efi-Owner -h coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu -s -r DIY_EFI diy_efi-outgoing id AA02348; Tue, 21 Mar 95 08:46:23 -0500 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA182463577; Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:46:17 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:46:17 -0500 From: FIScot@xxx.com Message-Id: <950321084616_56113078@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re:Booklist Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Subject: My Booklist.. > Date: 95-03-19 19:05:54 EST > From: c.pugsley@xxx.au (Craig Pugsley) > Hi there, > Here is my good deed for the day: > After several years of collecting info on EFI (for the purpose of > DIYing my EFI :-), And after coming against the typical 'The sensors > take the readings and the computer does the calculations and the > injectors put in the fuel' explaination time after time, I've finally > found some books that are semi-usefull: [snip] > 3/ Fuel injection - Installation, Performance tuning, Modifications, By > Jeff Hartman. Publisher Motorbooks international, PO Box 1, Osceola, > WI 54020 ph 1-800-826-6600 (in the US), Reccomended Price $19.95 US. > ISBN 0-87938-743-2 > (I paid $AUS 34.95 from McGills in Melbourne for those in AUS) Probably > the best value for money book on EFI. The book has snippets of > everything - If it had detail on all the subjects it mentioned it would > be the definitive reference. The Audience is intended as street > rodders mainly, but there are good bits and peices for the DIY_EFI'er - > Reccomended reading. [snip] I just subscribed to the mailing list. I have also bought a number of books related to EFI. The Hartman book has a curious statement on page 146 related to setting up the fuel map on the DFI controller: "The thing to understand its (sic) that to tune the DFI, you must set base pulse width for speed and loading breakpoints in the base fuel matrix of 272 numbers. You change breakpoints by running in edit mode and literally typing in new numbers. For some reason, possibly to do with avoiding floating point math in the 68HC11 microprocessor, the numbers in the matrix are not pulse width, but rather pulse width divided by 0.0627" Does he know he has a clock driving the pulse width timer? I enjoyed the book, and the author has ALOT more hands on experience than I, but that statement I found interesting.... Scot Sealander FIScot@xxx.net ÿ