-- >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 12:09:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20065; Mon, 1 May 95 12:09:23 GMT Received: from oeonline.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20051; Mon, 1 May 95 08:09:20 -0400 Received: by oeonline.oeonline.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #3) id m0s5u9L-000EgXC; Mon, 1 May 95 08:00 EDT Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 07:59:57 -400 (EDT) From: Mike Wesley - SLIP Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map To: DIY_EFI Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9504270234.AA22319@xxx.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 26 Apr 1995, Garrett McWilliams wrote: > Steve wrote: > >The upstream temp sensor in the hot wire sensor isn't there to measure > >the actual temperature of the incoming air but to determine the change > >in temperature between the heating element and the detection element. > >A simplified mass flow meter would consist of two sensors, one upstream > >and one downstream of the heating element. You would expect the down > >stream element to be warmer than the upstream one because of the (heat > >carrying) mass going in that direction. > >So the difference in heating at the sensor is proportional to the mass > >flow rate. > > > > > I had thought the MAF sensor measured how much current it took to keep > the heated wire at a constant temperature, i.e. more air going through cools > it off more -> more current to maintain temp of the wire. Is this also used > or am I way off base? > > Garrett McWilliams > Absolutely correct! Mike... >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 13:02:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20175; Mon, 1 May 95 13:02:59 GMT Received: from magicnet.magicnet.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20161; Mon, 1 May 95 09:02:55 -0400 Received: from pm1_21.magicnet.net (pm1_21.magicnet.net [204.96.116.71]) by magicnet.magicnet.net (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27810 for ; Mon, 1 May 1995 09:02:53 -0400 Message-Id: <199505011302.JAA27810@xxx.net> X-Sender: pjwales@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 07:41:25 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Subject: Re: Turbos Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi Giles, If I were you I would take a serious look at the Metro Turbo and see what it has that your car doesn't. I think that putting a turbo on an engine with a compression ratio of 10.5:1 and a management system with no knock sensor is asking for meltdown. The only way to get it to work would be to run such a low boost pressure that the effort would not be worth it. If you were to use a Metro head and turbo, most of the the work would be done, or better still, off to the breakers and get a complete engine and fit that. Peter Wales Superchips Inc "Timing is everything" >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 1 14:35:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20510; Mon, 1 May 95 14:35:57 GMT Received: from pmafire.INEL.GOV by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20496; Mon, 1 May 95 10:35:54 -0400 Received: by pmafire.inel.gov (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA219208952; Mon, 1 May 1995 08:35:52 -0600 Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 08:35:51 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Is a MAF based system going to be easier to calibrate than a speed- density system? Also, what sort of aftermarket engine management systems are there for old V8s (I won a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport) ? I would really like to get a system that has knock and oxygen sensor feedback, spark control and throttle body injection. Charles Mott >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 00:50:09 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23916; Tue, 2 May 95 00:50:09 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23902; Mon, 1 May 95 20:50:00 -0400 Received: (from dingli@xxx.edu; Tue, 2 May 1995 10:49:28 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505020049.KAA26559@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Turbos To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 10:49:27 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199505011302.JAA27810@xxx.net> from "Peter Wales" at May 1, 95 07:41:25 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1501 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Giles, I second Peter's comments. 10.5:1 is way to high to do anything with a turbo on such an ancient head design (unless you wanted to run on methane :-) Locally, it's much cheaper to go and guy a second hand factory turbo engine ($650-$1500 Aus for an imported used Japanese engine) than it is to buy a new turbo and wastegate ($1400 + $600). Unless the factory engine won't fit, it's going to be much less work to fit it than retrofit a turbo. Peter writes, > If I were you I would take a serious look at the Metro Turbo and see what it > has that your car doesn't. > > I think that putting a turbo on an engine with a compression ratio of 10.5:1 > and a management system with no knock sensor is asking for meltdown. The > only way to get it to work would be to run such a low boost pressure that > the effort would not be worth it. > > If you were to use a Metro head and turbo, most of the the work would be > done, or better still, off to the breakers and get a complete engine and fit > that. > > Peter Wales Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 03:37:22 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24140; Tue, 2 May 95 03:37:22 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24126; Mon, 1 May 95 23:37:19 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s68lo-000CydC; Mon, 1 May 95 22:37 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: Turbos To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 1 May 1995 22:37:08 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <199505020049.KAA26559@xxx.AU> from "robert dingli" at May 2, 95 10:49:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 987 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI robert dingli writes: > > Giles, > > I second Peter's comments. 10.5:1 is way to high to do anything with a turbo > on such an ancient head design (unless you wanted to run on methane :-) Actually, even methane (or good CNG) isn't a good option... once you get over about 10.5:1 effective compression, methane burns hotter than gasoline... and it already burns significantly slower than gasoline. The result is ridiculous EGT's. I've heard that 14:1-14.4:1 is the limit for a naturally aspirated methane fueled engine because you start melting the plasma off the top compression ring... not sure how that would translate for a boosted engine. You can make more power with 114 octane high-lead race gas, anyway. -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 05:23:31 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24295; Tue, 2 May 95 05:23:31 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24273; Tue, 2 May 95 01:22:09 -0400 Received: (from dingli@xxx.edu; Tue, 2 May 1995 15:21:41 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505020521.PAA08662@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Turbos and CNG To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 2 May 1995 15:21:40 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: > Actually, even methane (or good CNG) isn't a good option... once you > get over about 10.5:1 effective compression, methane burns hotter than > gasoline... and it already burns significantly slower than gasoline. > The result is ridiculous EGT's. I've heard that 14:1-14.4:1 is the > limit for a naturally aspirated methane fueled engine because you start > melting the plasma off the top compression ring... not sure how that > would translate for a boosted engine. You can make more power with 114 > octane high-lead race gas, anyway. This is an interesting subject although I didn't mention methane as a serious alternative to petrol to allow Giles to run 10.5:1 + turbo. I haven't heard of melting plasma of compression rings but our research CNG engines have been running at 16:1 for a couple of years now. The engine I personally worked with was installed in a stationary application driving a heat pump. It ran for over 2500 hours before being dismantled and checked by engineers at Ford's engine labs. It had barely worn and they didn't even bother to change the bearings. The same engine design has run for months in taxi cabs with better performance than the original petrol engine. I suppose it comes down to good optimized engine design. >From memory the octane rating (RON) of methane is 130 although I'm sure somebody's textbook out there will say something different. :-) Robert 'now working with hydrogen assisted petrol engines' Dingli -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 07:52:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24505; Tue, 2 May 95 07:52:45 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24491; Tue, 2 May 95 03:52:38 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA24738; Tue, 2 May 95 09:52:45 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 May 95 09:52:45 +0200 Message-Id: <9505020752.AA24738@xxx.se> X-Sender: angs@xxx.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: RE: Turbos and CNG X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! I am dealing with a EFI project on hobby time. It is about changing the blown L-jetronic injection on a friends Alfa Romeo 75 V6 3.0 to a custom made EFI. I've built a board with a 68HC11 controller that can control the 6 Injectors. The board reads the voltage from the manifold airflow meter and converts it to a duty-cycle controlled signal that is fed to the injectors. The engine starts but runs on fat mixture. That's all for the moment. The question is, does anyone have algorithms on engine control, maybe in Ansi C (I have used an assembler but just bought an IAR HC11 C-compiler), either general ones or especially for the HC11. I would be very glad and thankfull if anyone could help me... Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Analytical Chemistry / Lund University Box 124 S-221 00 LUND SWEDEN Email: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 08:25:44 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24558; Tue, 2 May 95 08:25:44 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24541; Tue, 2 May 95 04:24:55 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP(5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA24806; Tue, 2 May 95 09:53:25 +0200 Date: Tue, 2 May 95 09:53:25 +0200 Message-Id: <9505020753.AA24806@xxx.se> X-Sender: angs@xxx.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: EFI with 68HC11 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! I am dealing with a EFI project on hobby time. It is about changing the blown L-jetronic injection on a friends Alfa Romeo 75 V6 3.0 to a custom made EFI. I've built a board with a 68HC11 controller that can control the 6 Injectors. The board reads the voltage from the manifold airflow meter and converts it to a duty-cycle controlled signal that is fed to the injectors. The engine starts but runs on fat mixture. That's all for the moment. The question is, does anyone have algorithms on engine control, maybe in Ansi C (I have used an assembler but just bought an IAR HC11 C-compiler), either general ones or especially for the HC11. I would be very glad and thankfull if anyone could help me... Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Analytical Chemistry / Lund University Box 124 S-221 00 LUND SWEDEN Email: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 2 23:34:19 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA27635; Tue, 2 May 95 23:34:19 GMT Received: from ccvcom.auckland.ac.nz by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA27621; Tue, 2 May 95 19:34:04 -0400 Received: from elenovgate1.auckland.ac.nz by ccvcom.auckland.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-7 #2864) id <01HQ29AGL33K8X84EF@xxx.nz>; Wed, 3 May 1995 10:01:15 GMT+1200 Received: From ELENOV1/WORKQUEUE by elenovgate1.auckland.ac.nz via Charon-4.0-VROOM with IPX id 100.950503095129.352; 03 May 95 10:02:05 +1200 Date: Wed, 03 May 1995 09:51:01 +0000 From: Uncle Pervy Subject: Car Microcomputers To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: Organization: University of Auckland X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 02 May 1995 20:19:45 +1000 From: choward@xxx.AU (Chris Howard) Subject: Re: Car Microcomputers To: wonggt@xxx.nz Organization: The University of Sydney Can anybody out there with information on car microcomputers? I want to know how to program them and fuel curves,maps etc. Any web sites or FAQ would be most useful. Ive got a mission to modify a Mazda 323 4wd turbo. But if i stuff it up im not to worried because its not mine. Somebody gave your address to me and said you may be able to help. Thanks Ed uNCLE pERVY email : wonggt@xxx.nz >From owner-diy_efi Thu May 4 16:34:53 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA04268; Thu, 4 May 95 16:34:53 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA04254; Thu, 4 May 95 12:34:50 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0s73rT-0009qHC; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0s73rS-000uNkC; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Thu, 4 May 95 11:34:45 CDT Date: Thu, 4 May 95 11:33:42 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@xxx.com Subject: looking for Scott (Dig) Bartholomay To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sorry to take up the groups space, but I couldn't get scott's email address. Scott, email me if you get this, and consider putting your email address on your web page :-) --steve sravet@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 16:03:58 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA10062; Fri, 5 May 95 16:03:58 GMT Received: from wotan.compaq.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA10048; Fri, 5 May 95 12:03:54 -0400 Received: from twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com by wotan.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #12) id m0s7Pr7-0009q7C; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03 CDT Received: from bangate.compaq.com by twisto.eng.hou.compaq.com with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #10) id m0s7Pr5-000uUTC; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03 CDT Message-Id: Received: by bangate.compaq.com with VINES ; Fri, 5 May 95 11:03:48 CDT Date: Fri, 5 May 95 11:03:21 CDT From: Steve=Ravet%Prj=Eng%PCPD=Hou@xxx.com Subject: re: Re: Alternate software appro To: diy_efi Cc: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Jack Mott Wrote: | | Andrew Dennison has made it clear that free DOS-based tools for the BDM | already exist. Where could I find a GNU C compiler available for DOS? (I | don't need gdb.) DJ Delorie has ported GNU tools to DOS, including a 32 bit DOS extender, etc. Look for djgpp on any of the standard ftp sites (oak.oakland.edu, gatekeeper.dec.com, any other simtel archive). --steve >From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 20:25:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11036; Fri, 5 May 95 20:25:25 GMT Received: from slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11022; Fri, 5 May 95 16:25:22 -0400 Received: from sparky.Mines.Colorado.EDU by slate.Mines.Colorado.EDU (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49802; Fri, 5 May 1995 14:25:46 -0600 Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 14:25:46 -0600 Message-Id: <9505052025.AA49802@xxx.EDU> X-Sender: mtaylor@xxx.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: mtaylor@xxx.EDU (Mike Taylor) Subject: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi there, I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! See ya, Mike mtaylor@xxx.edu >From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 21:46:06 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11336; Fri, 5 May 95 21:46:06 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11322; Fri, 5 May 95 17:46:02 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA09482; Fri, 5 May 95 17:45:32 EDT Message-Id: <9505052145.AA09482@xxx.net> X-Sender: cooldave@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 17:48:16 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@xxx.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Hi there, > I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find >information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to Not a clue... Jon Lusky seems to have quite a bit of expertise in this area though.. >implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust >temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. >feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! You would probably be better off with the O2 sensor.. Unless you are monitoring at each cylinder, you will get an average temp... One could be running at 1800 deg, while 7 could be at 1000 degrees... The one will melt something, while the others are too rich. The O2sensor would catch this a little sooner IMHO Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@xxx.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== >From owner-diy_efi Fri May 5 23:02:21 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11456; Fri, 5 May 95 23:02:21 GMT Received: from ariel.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11442; Fri, 5 May 95 19:02:18 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ5EGCS100C6MTM9@xxx.COM>; Fri, 05 May 1995 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAAAE48@xxx.com>; Fri, 05 May 95 16:01:28 PDT Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 16:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: RE: air-fuel ratio to temp To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAAAE48@xxx.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 24 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have tuned Weber carbs using the exhaust temp method. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe that you want the temp to be around 1400 deg F under full throttle conditions. Bryan Zublin ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: DIY_EFI Subject: air-fuel ratio to temp Date: Friday, May 05, 1995 2:25PM Hi there, I was wondering if anyone out there would know where I could find information on exhaust temperature vs. air-fuel ratios. I'm attempting to implement an EFI on a small block Chevy and would like to use exhaust temperature as the feedback control element. I've heard that exhaust temp. feedback is more responsive and accurate than oxygen sensors. Thanks! See ya, Mike mtaylor@xxx.edu >From owner-diy_efi Sat May 6 01:12:40 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11770; Sat, 6 May 95 01:12:40 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11756; Fri, 5 May 95 21:12:37 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ5IVDLPVKC6MPS4@xxx.COM>; Fri, 05 May 1995 18:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAACBF9@xxx.com>; Fri, 05 May 95 18:08:09 PDT Date: Fri, 05 May 1995 18:06:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAACBF9@xxx.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 39 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Charles, I believe that a MAF based system would be easier to calibrate compared to a speed density design (I have never confirmed this). If you have the calibration curve of the MAF meter (volts output vs. kg/hr mass flow) and the flow rate of the injectors (cc/min), then it should be a relatively simply process to determine the injector pulse width based on the air-fuel ratio that you want. I would be willing to bet that this first order approximation will be good enough to get the engine to run fairly well. Of course, second order enrichment factors will have to be applied for startup, idle, acceleration, etc. I have measured the steady state average flow rate of the injectors that I have. This is fairly easy. Does anyone on the list have calibration curves for the MAF meters used on the Ford vehicles (specifically the one used on the 5.0 L Mustang, made by Hitachi)? Bryan Zublin General Instrument, San Diego, CA, USA bzublin@xxx.com ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: MAP map or MAF map Date: Monday, May 01, 1995 8:35AM Is a MAF based system going to be easier to calibrate than a speed- density system? Also, what sort of aftermarket engine management systems are there for old V8s (I won a 1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport) ? I would really like to get a system that has knock and oxygen sensor feedback, spark control and throttle body injection. Charles Mott >From owner-diy_efi Sat May 6 03:06:52 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA11906; Sat, 6 May 95 03:06:52 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA11892; Fri, 5 May 95 23:06:49 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07920; Fri, 5 May 95 21:06:48 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13579; Fri, 5 May 95 21:06:43 MDT Date: Fri, 5 May 1995 21:06:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Throttle Plate Control To: diy_efi Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? Charles Mott >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 07:39:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16522; Mon, 8 May 95 07:39:49 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA16508; Mon, 8 May 95 03:39:45 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA21772; Mon, 8 May 95 09:39:32 +0200 Date: Mon, 8 May 95 09:39:32 +0200 Message-Id: <9505080739.AA21772@xxx.se> X-Sender: angs@xxx.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do >the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate >this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under >computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? > >Charles Mott > > SAAB (Sweden) uses such a method on the 9000. They have a servo motor+microprocessor controling the throttle angle. They use it for the Anti Spin system and for the Cruise control. I have even seen it on a small motorcycle (!), on an Aprilia (Italy), 125cc two-stroke with 33 bhp, some kind of technique to prevent you from "chocking" the engine at low revs, when you use full throttle. Ok, I would n't like to drive a car with this system, knowing that something m i g h t go wrong, it's still safer with a direct mechanical connection, airplane manufacturers (Airbus) use this technique though. George Siotis Analytisk Kemi Lunds Universitet Box 124 221 00 LUND E-mail: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 10:47:30 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA16996; Mon, 8 May 95 10:47:30 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA16982; Mon, 8 May 95 06:47:04 -0400 Received: from bal.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (bal [134.169.34.11]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA18780 for ; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:46:55 +0200 Received: (from knick@xxx.edu; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:46:54 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505081046.MAA19600@xxx.de> Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:46:52 MET DST In-Reply-To: from "Jack Mott" at May 5, 95 09:06:43 pm Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > > Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do > the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate > this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under > computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? > > Charles Mott > > Mercedes Benz and (I think) BMW use such an "acceerate by wire" system. Advantage is that it makes tempomat cruising easier. Due to a book on car tuning, the disadvantage is that tuning such an electronic throttle system is not easy to tune up. Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@xxx.de ------------------------------------ >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 15:18:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17541; Mon, 8 May 95 15:18:33 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17527; Mon, 8 May 95 11:18:29 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQ99CRKH1C001AAE@xxx.EDU>; Mon, 8 May 1995 10:18:14 CDT Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 22:26:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Throttle Plate Control To: diy_efi Message-Id: <123887.7.uupcb@xxx.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected -> do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might -> mandate this.) The first auto "drive by wire" systems were developed for rear-engine buses, actually. -> Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle -> valve under computer control? Various Delco and Bosch "traction control" rigs do this, notably on Corvettes and Cadillacs. -> Would there be any advantages to doing this? Sure, as long as you're sure the guy who wrote the software knows more about your driving than you do. I prefer to control my own throttle, thank you. ==dave.williams@xxx.us=========================DoD# 978======= >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 16:32:43 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17709; Mon, 8 May 95 16:32:43 GMT Received: from anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17695; Mon, 8 May 95 12:32:40 -0400 Received: from borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov by anlsun.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09775; Mon, 8 May 95 10:32:39 MDT Received: by borah.ebr.anlw.anl.gov (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20277; Mon, 8 May 95 10:32:38 MDT Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 10:32:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Jack Mott Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9505052145.AA09482@xxx.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Fri, 5 May 1995, David Cooley wrote: > ... > You would probably be better off with the O2 sensor.. Unless you are > monitoring at each cylinder, you will get an average temp... One could be > running at 1800 deg, while 7 could be at 1000 degrees... The one will melt > something, while the others are too rich. The O2sensor would catch this a > little sooner IMHO In the situation that Mr. Cooley writes about, will the oxygen sensor give a low reading (because the rich running cylinders are eating up all the O2)? What time constants do typical 02 sensors exhibit? What physics / chemistry is involved? And finally, do any sensors (O2 or otherwise) have the time resolution to detect properties of individual exhaust pulses? I would think even a pressure sensor might be useful. Charles Mott >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 16:42:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17878; Mon, 8 May 95 16:42:49 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17864; Mon, 8 May 95 12:42:46 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQ983SBCY8C6M2XM@xxx.COM>; Mon, 08 May 1995 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAE4A09@xxx.com>; Mon, 08 May 95 09:42:49 PDT Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 09:42:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: FW: Throttle Plate Control To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAE4A09@xxx.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 22 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I believe that one of the first vehicles to have this "drive by wire" throttle control was the BMW 750iL, first produced in the late 1980s. I can't recall any other specific vehicles that have this, although there must be some. The cars with traction control using the throttle may have "drive by wire." BZ Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ---------- From: owner-diy_efi To: diy_efi Subject: Throttle Plate Control Date: Friday, May 05, 1995 9:06PM Do all commercial vehicles have the throttle plate directly connected do the accelerator pedal? (I would think reasons of safety might mandate this.) Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle valve under computer control? Would there be any advantages to doing this? Charles Mott >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 17:06:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA17949; Mon, 8 May 95 17:06:28 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA17935; Mon, 8 May 95 13:06:23 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA10653 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Mon, 8 May 1995 13:06:18 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA23427; Mon, 8 May 1995 13:05:19 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA273902311; Mon, 8 May 1995 12:58:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 May 95 12:56:32 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Dave Williams wrote: >-> Are there any "fly-by-wire" systems with the throttle >-> valve under computer control? > > Various Delco and Bosch "traction control" rigs do this, notably on >Corvettes and Cadillacs. No Cadillac ever produced, including current production, has had a fly-by-wire throttle. Traction control is accomplished by engine torque modulation coupled with selective brake application. I am also unaware of any production Corvette with a fly-by-wire throttle. >-> Would there be any advantages to doing this? > > Sure, as long as you're sure the guy who wrote the software knows more >about your driving than you do. Sometimes they don't, sometimes they do :). ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 18:34:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18167; Mon, 8 May 95 18:34:15 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18153; Mon, 8 May 95 14:34:11 -0400 Received: from mailhost.nando.net ([165.226.14.74]) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA20911; Mon, 8 May 95 14:32:25 EDT Message-Id: <9505081832.AA20911@xxx.net> X-Sender: cooldave@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 14:36:10 -0400 To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@xxx.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >In the situation that Mr. Cooley writes about, will the oxygen sensor give >a low reading (because the rich running cylinders are eating up all the >O2)? What time constants do typical 02 sensors exhibit? What physics / >chemistry is involved? And finally, do any sensors (O2 or otherwise) have >the time resolution to detect properties of individual exhaust pulses? I >would think even a pressure sensor might be useful. > >Charles Mott Charles, If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous response once it is up to temp. The sensors "switch" from lean to rich and back again quite a few times a second as the mixture changes. This would give you the ability to tune individual cylinders on the fly. Later, Dave ============================================================================== David Cooley (919) 319-2734 Office cooldave@xxx.net (919) 319-2896 FAX Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM ============================================================================== >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 18:51:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA18203; Mon, 8 May 95 18:51:28 GMT Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA18189; Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:25 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA02137; Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:20 EDT Date: Mon, 8 May 95 14:51:20 EDT Message-Id: <9505081851.AA02137@xxx.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous > response once it is up to temp. Interesting. When I started tuning my supercharged Rx7 I was told (by a guy who builds special test engines for Cartech) that the O2 sensor responds too slow for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. One thing I noticed the other day while blasting up a hill the engine started to detonate, yet the O2 sensor was still reading rich. I immediately backed off and eased the car up in boost. Sure enough, the O2 sensor started reading lean. Later Rob gallant@xxx.mil >From owner-diy_efi Mon May 8 22:48:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19151; Mon, 8 May 95 22:48:12 GMT Received: from asi1.anutech.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19137; Mon, 8 May 95 18:48:05 -0400 Received: (from hugh@xxx.9) id JAA27869; Tue, 9 May 1995 09:09:13 +1000 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:09:13 +60000 From: "H. Blemings" Subject: Re: BMW 750iL To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <2FAE4A09@xxx.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Mon, 8 May 1995, Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS) wrote: > I believe that one of the first vehicles to have this "drive by wire" > throttle control was the BMW 750iL, first produced in the late 1980s. I > can't recall any other specific vehicles that have this, although there must > be some. The cars with traction control using the throttle may have "drive > by wire." BZ I was lucky enough to at least sit in one of these cars, they were a beautiful sounding V12. The thing I though was rather neat was that to start the engine you simply toggled the key to the start position and released it, the EFI automatically cranked the engine till it fired and bought it up to a comfortable idle. I'm not sure if this has been done on other vehicles but it was certainly an impressive bit of engineering. There was also a story around at the time that told of when the mechanics were being trained in Germany, the instructor would start the engine and comment on how smooth the engine sounded. Then he would re-enable the other bank of cylinders :) Nice motor car. Cheers, Hugh ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hugh Blemings | email : hugh@xxx.au | phone : 015 485558 / +61 15 485558 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Proverbs 3:5,6 - Read The Book for further details :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 03:53:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA19887; Tue, 9 May 95 03:53:33 GMT Received: from merlin.nando.net by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA19873; Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:29 -0400 Received: from cooldave.nando.net (grail508.nando.net) by merlin.nando.net (4.1/davel-nando/Jan95) id AA03067; Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:04 EDT Date: Mon, 8 May 95 23:53:04 EDT Message-Id: <9505090353.AA03067@xxx.net> X-Sender: cooldave@xxx.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: cooldave@xxx.net (David Cooley) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > >> If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous >> response once it is up to temp. > >Interesting. When I started tuning my supercharged Rx7 I was told (by a guy who >builds special test engines for Cartech) that the O2 sensor responds too slow >for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Maybe he wants to sell you a motor! >One thing I noticed the other day while blasting up a hill the engine started to >detonate, yet the O2 sensor was still reading rich. I immediately backed off >and eased the car up in boost. Sure enough, the O2 sensor started reading lean. Well... Mixture being rich won't keep a motor with too much advance/compression/hotspots in the combustion chamber from pinging.. The computer did it's job though.. as you back off the gas, it should go lean. All the guys on the syclone and GN list use O2 sensors to tune and monitor their runs by.. The ones that have used a EGT have melted pistons before the thermocouple responded enough to register danger. Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, but there is no way of knowing exactly how much. Later, Dave =================================================================== David Cooley Fax: (919) 319-2896 Powered by WINDOWS 95! VM: (800) 753-6336 cooldave@xxx. 2718 cooley@xxx.com =================================================================== >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 09:09:59 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20357; Tue, 9 May 95 09:09:59 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20343; Tue, 9 May 95 05:09:51 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA28102; Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:02 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:02 +0200 Message-Id: <9505090909.AA28102@xxx.se> X-Sender: angs@xxx.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: EFI with 68HC11 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hello out there! Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of processors that Bosch Motronic uses. I have heard that there a program that can show you the duty-cycle curves for the injectors, the timing etc, when you just read the program from an EPROM. Then you can modify the settings and burn a new EPROM. Can this program be bought somewhere? Are there any other techniques to cope this problem? Thanks in advance Georg Siotis Email: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 11:02:33 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20484; Tue, 9 May 95 11:02:33 GMT Received: from mbox.ualr.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20470; Tue, 9 May 95 07:02:30 -0400 Received: from vn-gateway by UALR.EDU (PMDF V4.2-11 #4503) id <01HQAEPW2KCW001AAE@xxx.EDU>; Tue, 9 May 1995 06:02:23 CDT Date: Mon, 08 May 1995 21:31:00 +0000 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <124153.7.uupcb@xxx.us> Organization: The Courts of Chaos * Jacksonville AR USA * 501-985-0059 X-Envelope-To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI -> No Cadillac ever produced, including current production, has had a -> fly-by-wire Traction control is accomplished by engine torque -> modulation coupled with selec brake application. I am also unaware -> of any production Corvette with a fly-by- throttle. You're entirely correct. I jumped tracks from fly by wire to traction control without looking. Could someone help me get this bucket off my foot? ==dave.williams@xxx.us=========================DoD# 978======= >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 11:09:15 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20516; Tue, 9 May 95 11:09:15 GMT Received: from oasys.dt.navy.mil by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20502; Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:12 -0400 Received: from gallant.dt.navy.mil by oasys.dt.navy.mil (5.61/oasys.dt.navy.mil) id AA11801; Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:08 EDT Date: Tue, 9 May 95 07:09:08 EDT Message-Id: <9505091109.AA11801@xxx.mil> From: "Robert Gallant" To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI In message <9505090353.AA03067@xxx.net> writes: > >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > > > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Not for the rotary. I've seen temps as high as 1900 F (when the engine was normally aspirated). This is normal! > Well... Mixture being rich won't keep a motor with too much > advance/compression/hotspots in the combustion chamber from pinging.. No doubt, but it will stop detonation from running lean. > The computer did it's job though.. as you back off the gas, it should go > lean. Maybe I wasn't clear. I backed off the gas, then slowly got back into it. At 6-8 psi of boost it started to lean out. > Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should > be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, Yep, realized this. But when I see .2..v, I know its lean (and it shouldn't be reading this while under boost, especially at 7000 rpm :-). Later Rob gallant@xxx.mil >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:05:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20583; Tue, 9 May 95 12:05:29 GMT Received: from ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20566; Tue, 9 May 95 08:01:44 -0400 Received: from diana.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (diana [134.169.34.15]) by ra.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA29354 for ; Tue, 9 May 1995 14:01:27 +0200 Received: (from knick@xxx.edu; Tue, 9 May 1995 14:01:24 +0200 From: Jens Knickmeyer Message-Id: <199505091201.OAA23797@xxx.de> Subject: Re: EFI with 68HC11 To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 95 14:01:22 MET DST In-Reply-To: <9505090909.AA28102@xxx.se> from "Georg Siotis" at May 9, 95 11:09:02 am Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI wrote: > > Hello out there! > Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of > processors that Bosch Motronic uses. Can someone confirm that Bosch Motronic uses 8051/8048? I thought they used 68HC11, as the subject of this message tells?! Jens. ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroporzessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig knick@xxx.de ------------------------------------ >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:14:25 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20621; Tue, 9 May 95 12:14:25 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20607; Tue, 9 May 95 08:14:22 -0400 Received: from dialup-2-135.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Tue, 9 May 95 07:14:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 07:12:45 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17761.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >their runs by.. The ones that have used a EGT have melted pistons before the >thermocouple responded enough to register danger. One of the things about knock is that when it happens, the EGT drops. The vibrating gasses speed up the heat transfer to whatever is inside the chamber, i.e., piston, head, headgasket, and so on. This heat loss shows up as lower exhaust temperature. Maybe it's something else, but knock can be nasty. >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 12:53:07 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20713; Tue, 9 May 95 12:53:07 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20699; Tue, 9 May 95 08:52:52 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@xxx.se with SMTP id AA13710 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 14:51:25 +0200 X-Sender: set@xxx.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 14:54:17 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@xxx.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi All. There has been a lot of discussion about the correlation of air/fuel ratis vs. exhaust temp. This has initialized a grad. work for one of my students. The setup for this experiment will be a low-compression Volvo B-19 engine. with a lot of meassuring points. The engine powers a "eddie current break" The idea was to find out spec. fuelcomsumption vs. torque and rpm. To that he will add exhaust temp and air flow. As this doesn't seems to be a trival problem, I'm opend for any comments and suggestions. --- greatings -- *********************************************** * Sven-Erik Tiberg * * Div. of Energy Enginnering * * Dep. of Mechanical Enginnering * * Lulea Univ. of Technology SWEDEN * * email set@xxx.se * * phone +46 920 91218 * * fax +46 920 91047 * * http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/ene/staff/set/ * *********************************************** >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 13:12:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20771; Tue, 9 May 95 13:12:03 GMT Received: from [198.111.80.23] by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20757; Tue, 9 May 95 09:12:00 -0400 Received: from etcv01.eld.ford.com by internet-mail.ford.com with SMTP id AA09199 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 09:11:58 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 9:13:02 -0400 (EDT) From: PATTEEUW@xxx.com To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <950509091302.2103bcc4@xxx.com> Subject: RE: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI A little off the subject but still related ... The Ford/Navistar Turbo Diesel uses electronically actuated unit (individual cylinder) injectors. Because diesels don't use a throttle, this makes these vehicles true "drive-by-wire". There is only one computer in the system. The accelerator pedal assembly has a potentiometer for "pedal position" and closed throttle and WOT switches. Speed (cruise) control is handled by the same processor. For vehicle that require a auxiliary/hand throttle (ie. wreckers w/PTO and vehicles that require high idle for high electric power output) there is a separate controller (microprocessor based) that tells the EEC to go to high idle. Jack Patteeuw >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 14:46:23 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA20979; Tue, 9 May 95 14:46:23 GMT Received: from Nomina.lu.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20965; Tue, 9 May 95 10:46:18 -0400 Received: from georg.analykem.lu.se by nomina.lu.se with SMTP (5.65/IDA-1.2.8) id AA06250; Tue, 9 May 95 16:46:10 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 16:46:10 +0200 Message-Id: <9505091446.AA06250@xxx.se> X-Sender: angs@xxx.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: Georg.Siotis@xxx.se (Georg Siotis) Subject: Motronic: Do they use 8048 / 8051 X-Mailer: Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > wrote: >> >> Hello out there! >> Is there anyone who has disassemble tools for the 8051/8048 family of >> processors that Bosch Motronic uses. > >Can someone confirm that Bosch Motronic uses 8051/8048? I thought >they used 68HC11, as the subject of this message tells?! > >Jens. A wrong subject slipped inside. Sorry about that. I 've heard that early Motronics use the 8048 and the later (after 90) use the 8051. It would of course be very nice if someone can confirm this. Greetings Georg Siotis >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 14:49:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21012; Tue, 9 May 95 14:49:28 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA20998; Tue, 9 May 95 10:49:26 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s8qaj-000CyfC; Tue, 9 May 95 09:48 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 09:48:53 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9505081832.AA20911@xxx.net> from "David Cooley" at May 8, 95 02:36:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1259 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI David Cooley writes: > If you wanted to monitor every cyl, an O2 sensor has almost instantaneous > response once it is up to temp. The sensors "switch" from lean to rich and > back again quite a few times a second as the mixture changes. This would > give you the ability to tune individual cylinders on the fly. Here's my two cents.... I run an O2 sensor in each collector. I run thermocouples in each port. The variance in EGT gives you a good picture of cylinder balance, and then the O2 sensor tells you what the actual A/F is if you are running near stoich. However, O2 sensors are only good for tuning near stoich, so they'll only help you at idle and low-medium load. For WOT, just keep the EGT safe and keep an eye on each individual temp to make sure you don't have one heading to the moon. As far as the idea of doing closed loop at WOT from EGT, it'd be a neat experiment... > Powered by WINDOWS 95! (800) 753-6336 VM Ack, just say no! -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 15:07:13 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21060; Tue, 9 May 95 15:07:13 GMT Received: from knuth.mtsu.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21046; Tue, 9 May 95 11:07:08 -0400 Received: by knuth.mtsu.edu (Smail3.1.28.1 #21) id m0s8qrt-000Cz5C; Tue, 9 May 95 10:06 CDT Message-Id: From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:06:37 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <9505091109.AA11801@xxx.mil> from "Robert Gallant" at May 9, 95 07:09:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24alpha3] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 996 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Robert Gallant writes: > > >boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. > > WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... > Not for the rotary. I've seen temps as high as 1900 F (when the engine was > normally aspirated). This is normal! Gotta love them slow-burnin Wankels :) > > Also understand that the O2 sensor isn't linear.. at 14.7:1 A/F, it should > > be .45-.5 volts... After that it just means it is richer/leaner than stoich, > > Yep, realized this. But when I see .2..v, I know its lean (and it shouldn't be > reading this while under boost, especially at 7000 rpm :-). Well, it's either lean OR you have a poor ground between the sensor and meter. I've been burned by that once or twice... -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.edge.net/~lusky/ (615) 726-8700 ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:26:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21306; Tue, 9 May 95 16:26:12 GMT Received: from yarrow.wt.com.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21292; Tue, 9 May 95 12:26:06 -0400 Received: (prep@xxx.8) id AAA06327; Wed, 10 May 1995 00:25:54 +0800 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 00:25:54 +0800 From: Paul Repacholi Message-Id: <199505091625.AAA06327@yarrow> To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:35:45 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21366; Tue, 9 May 95 16:35:45 GMT Received: from dione.gi.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21352; Tue, 9 May 95 12:35:42 -0400 Received: from gismtpgate.gi.com (po1.gi.com) by ARIEL.GI.COM (PMDF V4.3-10 #7516) id <01HQAM5XLGPSC6L9MD@xxx.COM>; Tue, 09 May 1995 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gismtpgate.gi.com with Microsoft Mail id <2FAF9A00@xxx.com>; Tue, 09 May 95 09:36:16 PDT Date: Tue, 09 May 1995 09:37:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Subject: FW: air-fuel ratio to temp To: "diy_efi (postings)" Message-Id: <2FAF9A00@xxx.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Encoding: 12 TEXT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >>for full throttle high rpm measurements. He said to use EGT for WOT/maximum >>boost tuning and suggested a "safe" setting of 1600-1700 F for the rotary. >> >WOW... 1600-1700 is a lot... Maybe he wants to sell you a motor! The key item here is "rotary engine." I believe that the ideal EGT for these engines is significantly higher than a typical 4 stroke engine. Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 16:38:24 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA21390; Tue, 9 May 95 16:38:24 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA21376; Tue, 9 May 95 12:38:21 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08569; Tue, 9 May 1995 10:40:51 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120321; Tue, 9 May 1995 10:36:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 9 May 1995 10:33:16 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Motronic: Do they use 8048 / 8051 To: Georg Siotis Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <9505091446.AA06250@xxx.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Tue, 9 May 1995, Georg Siotis wrote: > A wrong subject slipped inside. Sorry about that. I 've heard that early > Motronics use the 8048 and the later (after 90) use the 8051. It would of > course be very nice if someone can confirm this. The earliest units used the Cosmac 1802 Then came the 8051, 8052, and 80515 .... Next, they switched to 16bit uP's with variants of the Intel 80x96 Usually in combo with an SMD (44pin) 8051 for spark & knock control The latest OBD-II compliant M5.2 uses the 87C196KN Jim PS: You can obtain a shareware package called DIS8051 from many sources on the net .... PPS: If anyone has any 80x96 tools to share let me know! >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 21:29:56 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22460; Tue, 9 May 95 21:29:56 GMT Received: from gmlink2.gmeds.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22444; Tue, 9 May 95 17:29:50 -0400 Received: from fsrd37z0 (fsrd37z0.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com) by gmlink2.gmeds.com with SMTP id AA01253 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for ); Tue, 9 May 1995 17:29:45 -0400 Received: from ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com by fsrd37z0; (5.65/1.1.8.2/23Sep94-0943AM) id AA04383; Tue, 9 May 1995 17:28:46 -0400 Received: from ctlp0045.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com ([130.172.55.179]) by ctlw3904.mpg.gmpt.gmeds.com (1.37.109.11) id AA070284500; Tue, 9 May 1995 17:21:40 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 May 95 15:48:03 EST From: Ed Lansinger Subject: Re: air-fuel ratio to temp To: DIY_EFI X-Mailer: Chameleon - TCP/IP for Windows by NetManage, Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Sven-Erik Tiberg said: >Hi All. > >There has been a lot of discussion about the correlation of air/fuel ratis >vs. exhaust temp. This has initialized a grad. work for one of my students. >The idea was to find out spec. fuelcomsumption vs. torque and rpm. To that >he will add exhaust temp and air flow. >... >As this doesn't seems to be a trival problem, I'm opend for any comments >and suggestions. OK, I'll take a stab at this thread. Having just spent the day on a chassis dyno watching exhaust gas temperature while measuring torque, I'd like to point out the sensitivity of EGT to spark advance. Retarding spark will increase EGT. Naturally, this has an effect on torque output, too, but that's not to imply that you'll find the same EGT at all operating points that have the same torque and RPM. So, one suggestion I have (of which Sven-Erik is probably already aware) is to account for spark advance, too, at least relative to maximum brake torque timing. Some engines may run retarded from MBT for various reasons, so data both at and below MBT timing could be interesting. Heywood, of course, discusses the relationship between EGT and A/F ratio. He shows predicted and measured results that indicate that EGT reaches a maximum at 14.7:1 and falls off as you go rich or lean (holding RPM and IMEP constant) ("Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals", p. 770; data from "A Fundmental Model for Predicting Fuel Consumption, NOx, and HC Emissions of the Conventional Spark- Ignited Engine" by Lavoie and Blumberg, printed in Combustion Science and Technology, Vol. 21, pp. 225-258, 1980). These results also show how retarding spark increases EGT. Assuming these results can be generalized, it looks to me from the graphs that using EGT to guess at A/F ratio might work as long as you aren't too concerned about exact values. In the example, measured EGT changed only about 3% (absolute scale) from 10.2:1 to 13.2:1. The curve changes only slightly more rapidly as you approach 14.7:1. Using EGT to perform tight closed-loop A/F control seems rather futile, especially when you count in sensor lag. Unless you have a tiny, bare thermocouple (not very rugged), the time constant of the thermocouple is likely to be measured in tenths of a second, if not seconds. I'd be interested to know if there is a ruggedized thermocouple that has a time constant in the <.001 second range. Such a sensor might be useful for misfire detection at high RPM. "Steady-state" EGT is invaluable to see if you are about to melt manifolds (especially turbos) or catalysts, and less accurately pistons and valves. Another contributor to the list suggested that the O2 sensor cannot be used to quantify A/F ratios above and below 14.7:1. The Bosch LM511 is a wide-range oxygen sensor which has enough change in output above and below 14.7:1 to make it useful for doing just this. Unfortunately, as with all O2 sensors, its output characteristics change with temperature (although not the rich/lean transition point), so you need to know EGT. You'll have to calibrate it yourself, because the last time I checked the response curves were unavailable to the public. ------------------------------------------------------- Ed Lansinger General Motors Powertrain Powertrain Control Center Premium V Software & Calibration Group Milford Proving Ground, Milford, MI elansi01@xxx.com 8-341-3049 (810) 684-3049 ------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Tue May 9 22:45:57 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22674; Tue, 9 May 95 22:45:57 GMT Received: from gateway.sequent.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22660; Tue, 9 May 95 18:45:53 -0400 Received: from sequent.sequent.com by gateway.sequent.com (8.6.10/1.34) id PAA29957; Tue, 9 May 1995 15:44:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by sequent.sequent.com (8.6.12/1.34) id PAA18976; Tue, 9 May 1995 15:45:43 -0700 Message-Id: <199505092245.PAA18976@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Mixture and EGT Date: Tue, 09 May 95 15:45:42 PDT From: Harmon Sommer Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I have heard that in larger piston engine aircraft (larger than the J-3 Cub I soloed decades ago) that the pilot has a fuel mixture control. Procedure is for takeoff and climb out to be made with a 'rich' mixture and, after level off, mixture is leaned out until engine roughness is detected (EGT increases as mixture is leaned) and then mixture is made richer for ~75 degree decrease in EGT. My understanding is that combustion temperature is highest at stoich and declines as mixture is made richer or leaner. Question: why is EGT increasing as mixture is leaned. Is it because combustion temp is increasing as rich mixture is brought nearer to stoich? Is it because lean mixture burns slower and is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Or none of the above? Thx, Harmon >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 00:42:28 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA22849; Wed, 10 May 95 00:42:28 GMT Received: from mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA22835; Tue, 9 May 95 20:42:16 -0400 Received: (from dingli@xxx.edu; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:42:08 +1000 From: robert dingli Message-Id: <199505100042.KAA01298@xxx.AU> Subject: Re: Mixture and EGT To: DIY_EFI Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:42:07 +1000 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199505092245.PAA18976@xxx.com> from "Harmon Sommer" at May 9, 95 03:45:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1592 Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Hi all, I've been waiting for some labs results to empirically answer the original query about EGTs vs AFR. Our test rig (Lancia 2lt 16V on motoring dynamometer) is wired with a thermocouple in each exhaust runner and one in the collector. (It also has thermocouples in every other nook and cranny.) We have also individually plumbed each runner to the exhaust gas analyser for CO, CO2, O2, HC and NOx measurements. I will post some EGT characteristics soon. > > My understanding is that combustion temperature is highest at stoich and > declines as mixture is made richer or leaner. Question: why is EGT increasing as > mixture is leaned. Is it because combustion temp is increasing as rich > mixture is brought nearer to stoich? Is it because lean mixture burns > slower and is still burning as the exhaust valve opens. Or none of the > above? > > Thx, Harmon > >From my understanding, you are correct on both accounts. A thrid factor is that as the mixture is leaned out, there is less fuel energy to ignite and eventually the EGTs will drop off (as does peak cylinder pressure and NOx emmissions). Robert -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 344 7966 (+613) 344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 09:01:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA23890; Wed, 10 May 95 09:01:03 GMT Received: from extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA23876; Wed, 10 May 95 05:00:56 -0400 Received: from ts-h08-15-45.ucc.su.OZ.AU (ts-h08-15-45.ucc.su.OZ.AU [129.78.78.193]) by extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id TAA28782 for ; Wed, 10 May 1995 19:00:49 +1000 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 19:00:49 +1000 Message-Id: <199505100900.TAA28782@xxx.AU> X-Sender: choward@xxx.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: DIY_EFI From: choward@xxx.AU (Chris Howard) Subject: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I'm in the process of designing a datalogging system for a club race car. The car is fitted with Haltech F7 Fuel injection. I have an 11 channel A-D converter which plugs into the parallel port of a laptop which will be in the car. The converter can sample at up to 18kHz @xxx. I'm going to interface some transducers to it. I'm currently thinking of: Throttle position (rotary potentiometer) Steering angle ( " " ) RPM (from tacho output) 2 x wheel speed (proximity sensors) 3 axis acceleration I would ideally like to incorporate suspension movement as well, but may be limited by budget as I am a university student. Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. It must be able to measure static acceleration. Any other comments would also be appreciated. Thanks, >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 11:56:10 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24087; Wed, 10 May 95 11:56:10 GMT Received: from gold.tc.umn.edu by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24073; Wed, 10 May 95 07:56:07 -0400 Received: from dialup-4-46.gw.umn.edu by gold.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 10 May 95 06:55:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 May 95 06:54:30 GMT From: "Matthew Lee Franklin" Message-Id: <17114.fran0054@xxx.edu> X-Minuet-Version: Minuet1.0_Beta_11 X-Popmail-Charset: English To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. >It must be able to measure static acceleration. I wonder if a BOSCH type knock sensor would be sensitive enough for your application. I think those are broad band. A GM-type may have trouble as they are resonant. >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:17:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24209; Wed, 10 May 95 13:17:49 GMT Received: from eru.mt.luth.se by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24195; Wed, 10 May 95 09:17:41 -0400 Received: from unauthenticated@xxx.se with SMTP id AA15915 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Wed, 10 May 1995 15:17:28 +0200 X-Sender: set@xxx.se Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 4 (Low) Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 15:20:22 +0100 To: DIY_EFI From: set@xxx.se (Sven-Erik Tiberg) Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI >I'm in the process of designing a datalogging system for a club race car. >The car is fitted with Haltech F7 Fuel injection. I have an 11 channel A-D >converter which plugs into the parallel port of a laptop which will be in >the car. >The converter can sample at up to 18kHz @xxx. >I'm going to interface some transducers to it. I'm currently thinking of: > > Throttle position (rotary potentiometer) > Steering angle ( " " ) > RPM (from tacho output) > 2 x wheel speed (proximity sensors) > 3 axis acceleration > >I would ideally like to incorporate suspension movement as well, but may be >limited by budget as I am a university student. > >Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi >axis. >It must be able to measure static acceleration. > >Any other comments would also be appreciated. > >Thanks, We had a project in full-active suspension on off-road vehicles some y ago. www-page; "http://www.luth.se/depts/mt/ene/articles/rigg/A_cab.html" There where a set of transducers developed for this application as accelerometers 0-100Hz, potentiometers and inclinometers. All units had mil-std, 4-20 mA and fault detection. An est. prize for this single axis accelerometer would be .LE. $400 in low quantity. --- sven-erik tiberg --- set@xxx.se ---- >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:36:12 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24310; Wed, 10 May 95 13:36:12 GMT Received: from steadfast.teradyne.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24296; Wed, 10 May 95 09:36:08 -0400 Received: from donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (donatello.icd.teradyne.com [131.101.7.16]) by steadfast.teradyne.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA27187; Wed, 10 May 1995 09:33:04 -0400 Received: from midnight.icd.teradyne.com by donatello.ICD.Teradyne.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1/TER-1.43/donatello-1.6) id AA27089; Wed, 10 May 95 09:35:15 EDT Date: Wed, 10 May 95 09:35:15 EDT From: benagh@xxx.COM (Jeff Benagh ) Message-Id: <9505101335.AA27089@xxx.COM> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Cc: choward@xxx.AU Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. > It must be able to measure static acceleration. I believe the Analog Devices ADXL05 can do this. They are ~$10 ion large quantities. I'm looking into getting samples. Send email to: Accelerometers@xxx.com Hope this helps Jeff >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 13:51:42 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24475; Wed, 10 May 95 13:51:42 GMT Received: from dialup-7.melbpc.org.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24461; Wed, 10 May 95 09:51:32 -0400 Received: by remote-1.melbpc.org.au (Smail3.1.28.1 #64) id m0s9CP0-0003kbC; Thu, 11 May 95 00:06 EST Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 00:06:13 +0000 From: Roger Edgecombe Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505100900.TAA28782@xxx.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Wireless World magazine, back in about 1987 had a design for a home brewed accelerometer, built from a 2" speaker. (It might be a bit TOO budget for your needs. I have the article if you want exact date.) Roger Edgecombe Signature (which I pinched ..): I hope to die quietly in my sleep, like my grandfather did, rather than screaming in terror - like his passengers did. >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 15:46:03 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24786; Wed, 10 May 95 15:46:03 GMT Received: from cicerone.uunet.ca by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24772; Wed, 10 May 95 11:45:59 -0400 Received: from gateway.prior.com ([142.77.252.4]) by cicerone.uunet.ca with SMTP id <171908-3>; Wed, 10 May 1995 11:47:13 -0400 Received: by gateway.prior.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03675; Wed, 10 May 95 11:40:18 EDT Received: from odin.gallium.com(192.139.238.33) by gateway.gallium.com via smap (V1.3) id sma003673; Wed May 10 11:39:48 1995 Received: from ivan.gallium.com by odin.gallium.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA26543; Wed, 10 May 95 11:41:41 EDT Received: by ivan.gallium.com (931110.SGI/930416.SGI) for @xxx.edu id AA00706; Wed, 10 May 95 11:45:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 11:45:28 -0400 From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Message-Id: <9505101545.AA00706@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. A recent (maybe even the current) issue of Circuit Cellar Ink had an article on data logging acceleration. I think they even used a 'single chip' accelerometer. I'll try to take another look at the article tonight and report back. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 16:06:37 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24996; Wed, 10 May 95 16:06:37 GMT Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24982; Wed, 10 May 95 12:06:30 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA030861988; Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:28 -0400 From: Lfaustini@xxx.com Message-Id: <950510120626_113718979@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I just read in Electronic Design that Analog Devices has come out with some cheap and accurate single chip accelerometers. They cost around $10.00 in very high quantities. So you can expect to pay twice that. They claim to have very good sensitivity, like .005g to 5g with DC preformance in part #ADXL05 They also have a freight-train-slamming-into-you- type detector that can measure from 5g to 50g. They listed the following phone numbers for info: 1-800-ANALOGD for fax info: 1-800-446-6212, faxcode numbers 1846 (low-g device) and 1606 (freight-train device) hope this info helps. -----Lou >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 16:06:29 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA24981; Wed, 10 May 95 16:06:29 GMT Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA24966; Wed, 10 May 95 12:06:26 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (1.37.109.11/16.2) id AA282581985; Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:25 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 12:06:25 -0400 From: Lfaustini@xxx.com Message-Id: <950510120620_113718875@xxx.com> To: DIY_EFI Subject: Re: Throttle Plate Control Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI Didn't the Corvette ZR-1 use a servo-motor to control the _secondary_ set of throttle plates? ---Lou >From owner-diy_efi Wed May 10 18:00:18 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA25619; Wed, 10 May 95 18:00:18 GMT Received: from us.dynix.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA25605; Wed, 10 May 95 14:00:14 -0400 Received: from cpu.us.dynix.com by us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08416; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:30:05 -0600 Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68674; Wed, 10 May 1995 10:25:56 -0600 Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 10:25:04 -700 (MDT) From: Jim Conforti Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: Chris Howard Cc: DIY_EFI In-Reply-To: <199505100900.TAA28782@xxx.AU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI On Wed, 10 May 1995, Chris Howard wrote: > Would anyone know of a 'budget' accelerometer. It could be single or multi axis. > It must be able to measure static acceleration. See this (or was it last) month's Circuit Cellar Ink for info on acceleration sensors and such ... Jim Conforti >From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 00:43:39 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26765; Thu, 11 May 95 00:43:39 GMT Received: from vax2.curtin.edu.au by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via SMTP (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) for /usr/local/mail/majordomo-1.92/wrapper filter id AA26751; Wed, 10 May 95 20:43:35 -0400 Received: from cc.curtin.edu.au by cc.curtin.edu.au (PMDF V4.3-7 #7809) id <01HQDCSWOYOG9JDEQJ@xxx.au>; Thu, 11 May 1995 08:43:19 +0800 Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:43:19 +0800 From: Skala_RD@xxx.au Subject: Re: Data Logging Accelerometers To: DIY_EFI Message-Id: <01HQDCSWR3UA9JDEQJ@xxx.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"DIY_EFI@xxx.edu" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-diy_efi Precedence: bulk Reply-To: DIY_EFI I'm not sure if this idea will work in your application, but you could probably try to use an electronic gyro. They are widely used in model helicopters for stability control. Maybe with a few modifications, they may just be able to do the job. I have some information on these devices, if you are interested let me know and I will see what I can dig up. Regards, Rob Robert D Skala Materials Research Group Curtin University of Technology Perth, Western Australia email: skala_rd@xxx.au >From owner-diy_efi Thu May 11 01:47:49 1995 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (920330.SGI/920502.SGI) id AA26896; Thu, 11 May 95 01:47:49 GMT Received: from uclink.Berkeley.EDU by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu v