DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 15 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 004 In this issue: Prices... Injector flow rate (long post) RE: re: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Re: MAP sensors Re: MAP sensors All the EST Re: All the EST RE: Playing with the ECM RE: All the EST RE: Playing with the ECM See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nietzsche is dead. -God" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:24 EDT Subject: Prices... I'm wondering how much should one pay for and efi unit unprogrammed. I have gotten a few quotes and was rather shocked. (Of course I was asking for an 8096 so that may have something to do with it.) --Mark Hofmann "Hofmann@xxx.edu" Sig? Whazzat? ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Injector flow rate (long post) Some people on the list were asking about flow rates of various injectors from Toyota engines. Here is some data from the 22RTE engine. I have measured the flow rate of four injectors from a Toyota 22RTE engine, from a 1986 truck (estimated year). This is a turbo charged version of the 22RE, with the CT20 turbo. DATA Tested by: Bryan Zublin Date of test: January 1992. Location: Poway, California, USA Injector part number: Toyota 23250-35020. Gasoline: Mobil Super+ unleaded, 92 octane (min), color yellow-green. Gasoline density: 0.75 grams/mL. Fuel pressure: 38 psi. Air temp: 16 to 18 deg C. Injector current: 1.45 amps. Duration of test: 60 +/- 0.5 seconds. Number of trials: 4 or 5 per injector. Here is the data for each injector (following cleaning): #1: 298, 296, 299, 297, 297; avg = 297.4 mL/min. #2: 307, 307, 307, 307; avg = 307.0 mL/min. #3: 296, 297, 297, 298, 298; avg = 297.2 mL/min. #4: 299, 301, 301, 301; avg = 300.5 mL/min. Note: mL/minute is the same as cc/minute. NOTES The Bentley Service Manual for the Toyota Pickup and 4Runner (published 1988) lists the injector flow rates as shown below. I believe that this information is NOT correct. Engine Year Flow Max delta between injectors 22RE 1984-1986 160-200 cc/min 6 cc 22RTE 1985-1987 160-200 cc/min 6 cc 22RTE 1988 260-320 cc/min 8 cc This information conflicts with the 1987 and 1988 Toyota Factory Service Manual, which lists the flow rate for the 22RTE as 260 to 320 cc/min. Also, there are only two injector part numbers listed for the production run of this engine, with the most common on model years 1986 through 1988. Manufacture Date Injector Assembly Number 8501-8508 (model year 1985) 23209-35010 8508-8808 (model years 1986-1988) 23209-35020 The assembly contains the grommet and O ring, so the part number is different that the number on the injector itself. It appears that I have the later injectors. It is interesting to note that the specs on each injector are quite wide (around +/- 10% of the center), while the spec on the variation between injectors is quite tight (around +/- 3%). This would imply that the injectors are matched in the factory as a set before being installed on the engine. TEST PROCEDURE The injector was turned on for 60 seconds and the fuel was collected in a beaker. The fuel and beaker were then weighed on a triple beam Ohaus balance and the volume was calculated based on the density of the fuel. The density of the fuel was previously measured using three different containers (a 300 mL beaker, 10 mL graduated cylinder, and a 100 mL volumetric flask). The three measurements were 0.747, 0.75, and 0.753 grams/mL. The average is 0.75 grams/mL. Each injector was tested 5 times, and then cleaned with Red Line SI-1 Injector & Valve Detergent. The injectors were then tested 4 or 5 more times each. Cleaning the injectors improved the flow rates of all injectors, with the most significant change occurring to injector #1 (16% increase). TEST SETUP Fuel Reservoir | Fuel Pump (1) | Pulsation Damper (2) | Fuel Filter (3) | Fuel Filter (4) | Pulsation Damper (5) | Fuel Rail (6) | |---- Fuel Injectors (7) --- Hose --- Beaker | |---- Pressure Gauge (8) | Pressure Regulator (9) ---- Reference port (10) (vent to atmosphere) | Return to Fuel Reservoir (1) Fuel Pump: from a 1978 Datsun 280Z, the type that mounts external to the gas tank. (2) Pulsation Damper: came with the fuel pump. (3) Fuel Filter: for Nissan / Datsun cars, Puraltor PF-3128. (4) Fuel Filter: the stock Toyota fuel filter for the 22RTE engine. (5) Pulsation Damper: the stock Toyota part, mounted to the start of the fuel rail. (6) Fuel Rail: from the same engine. (7) Fuel Injectors: from the same engine, part number marking 23250-35020. (8) Pressure Gauge: from Napa Auto Parts, PN 700-1487. (9) Pressure Regulator: from the same engine, mounted to the end of the fuel rail. (10) Reference Port: this is normally connected to the intake manifold of the engine. It was left unconnected and vented to the atmosphere for this test. ------------------------------ From: m_mcdonald@xxx.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:52:44 EST Subject: RE: re: RE: re: Reading the crank and OBDII (Camaro) Steve Ravet writes: > I skimmed this document [the EPA document about OBD-II}, all I really > got out of it was that the EPA is requiring manufacturers to make > available to the general public all emmissions related repair > information that they make available to their dealers. (available > not implying free). It also seems to require that reprogramming of > the ECM be allowed, and the information to accomplish that must be > made available. But the information can be made available indirectly, > in the form of a device that can reprogram the ECM, without actually > revealing how to reprogram it. Did I miss anything? The EPA document forces manufacturers to make available all their emissions-related repair information that, in turn, contains *much* performance-related information. It's not free, but it's not the dozens/hundreds of dollars per manual that the manufacturers would probably like to charge and it is easily available. Many related companies, such as Helms in Detroit, have toll-free numbers and accept plastic. These companies must ship the technical information within a day or two of receiving an order. Apparently limited reprogramming of a vehicle's ECM is allowed so that technicians can look for problems and verify that they've been solved. I don't know much about reprogramming. My goal is to be able to *read* the messages moving among sensors, the ECM, and actuators. I have no desire to *write* or *alter* these messages. About "available service manuals, TSBs, training kits, etc." -- these are what manufacturers make available to technicians at dealerships, so I assume they contain information that's valuable to skilled do-it-yourselfers such as members of this mailing list. Marll McDonald KB1AGM m_mcdonald@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 12:47:16 MDT Subject: Re: MAP sensors > Was wondering if anyone tried to use MAP sensors and Bernollies equation to > determine Mass Airflow. I'm thinking if one had three MAP sensors (one for Mike: Dodge used to use a system similar to this in their earlier fuel injection systems. Don't know if they still use it or not. As I recall, though, they used vanes in the inlet to create a vortex in the airflow sensor, and a couple of pitot tubes to measure the pressure at the center of the vortex. Was a little more complicated than that, somehow they relied on the vortex "whipping" around in the tube and measured the frequency of the resulting pressure pulses. I got this from a book called: Domestic Electronic Fuel Injection and Computer Systems by Frederick D. Allen Prentice Hall ISBN 0-13-218256-4 This book is worthwhile reading, although it doesn't go into much detail on the electronics side, it describes fuel injection systems in general from the Big 3 and is a good overall reference. As far as using a venturi or the like, the pressure differentials involved are very small and difficult to measure. I think you'd need an accurate (read "Expensive") differential pressure sensor to do it, along with temp comp, etc. I don't think the stock MAP sensor would be sensitive enough for the pressures involved. May be do-able but not easy or cheap. If the Big 3 don't do it, it ain't cost effective! Regards dn - -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 15:45:50 -0500 Subject: Re: MAP sensors > somehow they relied on the vortex "whipping" around in the tube and > measured the frequency of the resulting pressure pulses. Vague recollections: Toyota may use this vortex/frequency method in recent or current models. You might check them out. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: MTaylorfi@xxx.com Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:01:03 -0500 Subject: All the EST Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or dyno tests. If someone has a unique engine, I can see the custom setup. And also delay spark for detonation control. But there is a certain point of advancing an engine's timing to get maximum performance. Any more advance and you loose power!!! Just pointin' out the forest, since some people are stairin' at trees. See ya, Mike PS Let the comments begin. ------------------------------ From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:39:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: All the EST MTaylorfi@xxx.com writes: > > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. uhm, this ain't the dragrace list, dude. For most of us the throttle has many more positions than ON and OFF. Top fuelers run at WOT, near constant load and speed i believe. They can't benefit from spark advance of any form. My 68 Camaro's 350 on the other hand sees full throttle at any speed between 1800 RPM and 5500RPM... and theres a significant difference in MBT timing for 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT on my motor. If I was just worried about WOT, tho, good ole mechanical advance would do everything I need. But I spend a lot more time at part throttle on the street than I do at WOT. And the difference between MBT timing at 1800RPM idling and 1800RPM WOT is MUCH larger than the difference between MBT timing at 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT. SO it probably won't help your quarter mile... but it'll sure help your idle, fuel economy, streetability, etc. - -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.hotrod.com (615) 726-8700 - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd ------------------------------ From: ws6transam@xxx.net (Daniel R Burk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:25:01 -0500 Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM > >Markus Strobl has written: > > > >> Second subject: I own a '96 Camaro with the LT1. The service manual I >> read was for a friends '95. GM did alot of changes for '96 to >> comply with OBDII. My owners manual says that the ECM now detects >> misfires, and will flash the service engine light if it detects a >> misfire. The '96 also has 4 (!) O2 sensors (dual cat), to detect >> catcon degradation. > >> Does anyone have any info on OBDII? Ie how much can the engine be >> modified before the ECM tilts? Can the ECM be modified, or can >> it be fooled be changing the sensor readings? Any info appreciated. > > Marcus: Before you modify your ECM let me tell you about a little conversation I have had with a GM engineer who actually worked in ECM design. GM will be designing their new vcm (vehicle control module) with anti-tampering software. There are three levels of information available on the new vcm: 1) general engine diagnostics (freely available to scan tools) 2) dealership functions (like clearing the trouble codes) 3) emissions functions ( fuel maps, shift maps, ignition timing) As you can guess, level two will be only available to authorized service personnel. Level three will be protected from modifications from everyone except GM. If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! Yup, it sucks don't it? I asked the engineer "Why!?" and he replied it is because of liability concerns that GM is implementing this type of security. - --- Thought you would like to know that I am going to buy me a used '95 or '96 in a few years. I don't want the '97 anymore. - ---Dan ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 21:09:58 PST Subject: RE: All the EST I just had to put my two cents in about this one. You mentioned that top fuel dragsters are running magnetos and running in the 4 second 1/4 mile times. This is very much true. What you didn't mention was that electronic engine controls (CONTROLS, not MONITORs) of any kind are illigal in NHRA top fuel and funny car drag racing. The reason they don't (and they would love to go with fuel injection and electroic ignition. Do you know how hard it is to light nitromethane?) is they can't. NHRA feals that it would take a large part of the driver skill away if they allowed electronic engine controls. Think how easy it would be to control the ignition so that the wheel slippage was maintained at a constant percent? No more "Up is smoke" for the big boys! Clint ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:25:15 -0700 Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM At 22:25 12/14/95 -0500, you wrote: >GM will be designing their new vcm (vehicle control module) with anti-tampering >software. There are three levels of information available on the new vcm: > 1) general engine diagnostics (freely available to scan tools) > 2) dealership functions (like clearing the trouble codes) > 3) emissions functions ( fuel maps, shift maps, ignition timing) This is already in effect in any brain that is OBD-II compliant to some degree (flash eeprom, security codes to reprogram, etc) Even the OBD-I (or is it just OBD) had SOME anti-tamper functions, like multiple checksums, and max revs stored elsewhere in the vehicle (instrument cluster!) >As you can guess, level two will be only available to authorized service >personnel. Level three will be protected from modifications from everyone >except GM. Yeah, and then someone with a little savvy will pull the EEPROMS from a fully functional brain, dump the code, disassemble it and figure out all the little minefields ... as they have with every OEM trick so far .. Currently, I'm working on doing this for the Bosch M5.2 and Siemens MS41.1 controllers in the new BMWs (my bag is Bosch Motronic) All of their new stuff is EEPROM/Anti-Tamper per OBD-II (yuk!!) Jim Conforti ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #4 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".