DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 19 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 007 In this issue: BKM's box? Re: All the EST Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Re: 67f687 chip ... Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Re: Re: All the EST Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... RE: Playing with the ECM Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Re: Motorcycle speed density systems Re: All the EST Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) Re: CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) Re[2]: Hi ! Just joined the list...... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derrick Early Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 7:22:48 "EST Subject: BKM's box? I just read an article about a "Configurable Electronic Engine Control Computer" in the September issue of Automotive Engineer. The author was Dave Steinmeyer of BKM. I assume it is BKM's box that he was writing about. Has anyone had any experience with this controller? Yours, - -- Derrick Early early@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: Bob Valentine Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:13:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: All the EST > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. I agree with what you're saying. For a drag car you probably don't need EST. But in the real world we don't drive with the gas pedal in a binary state. ;^> Part throttle advance and varying engine loads are not a part of a drag car, whereas they are on a street driven vehicle. I'm looking into EST since I find the old tune-flog-tune-repeat cycle of setting an advance curve to be rather annoying. It would be much easier to adjust it from inside the car. You can also add modifiers for engine temp or other outside factors, something you cannot do with mechanical advance. As you pointed out, you can also have detonation control - here's one thing that would be good for a drag car, since detonation under boost or N20 is _*NOT*_ a good thing! This can also compensate for varying qualities of gas - I know that if I fill up with Mobil, I've got to back off the advance so I don't ping, whereas the same grade of other gasolines DOES detonate. > PS Let the comments begin. Thank god this is a list and not a newsgroup... otherwise I would be advising you to get some abestos undershorts! --> Bob Valentine <-- --> ravalent@xxx.com <-- "Hard Acceleration Saves Costly Aggravation" ------------------------------ From: Brad_Miller@xxx.com (Miller,Brad) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:20:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Thanks to SBrady on this one. I'm still kicking around the idea of the "real" system - with a fully programmable setup. That would fix my delimma - -- of course . . . just dropping in the V6 version into this car would fix my power problems . . . hmm . . . My other question is still sitting in the back of my mind - - I'm building a 2.5L motor - - but alas - - it doesn't have a turbo or fuel injection . . . . yet . . . but I've seen some systems based upon what I already have (dual Webers). It'd be a straight forward blow-thru system . . . hmm . . . that might be worth experimenting with . . . I'll have to see how energetic I feel this summer/year. Catch ya' all later! Bradley Miller Xerox Business Services, Kansas City Midwest Shelby Dodge Automobile Club Inc. Email: Brad_Miller@xxx.com Alternate: Brad2dbone@xxx.com - ---------- <*>From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu <*>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu <*>Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu <*>Subject: Re: <*>Date: Saturday, December 16, 1995 10:25AM <*> <*>Brad, <*> <*>You probably won't like what happens to the throttle response when you move <*>the TBI unit to the end of a longer tuned manifold. A dyno may or may not <*>tell you that you're making more torque, but the seat of your pants will <*>probably be disappointed. You also may wind up with mixture distribution <*>problems and horrible emissions because you're using a manifold that was not <*>designed for wet flow. - ---- SNIP ---- <*> <*>The best advice I can give you though is to sell the car you have and buy the <*>turbo version. Why try to make something almost as good as a factory turbo, <*>when you can focus on improving the turbo version? In general, turbo cars <*>come with premium suspensions, brakes, upgraded cooling systems, upgraded <*>engine components, transmissions etc. The cost savings of starting with the <*>cheaper car are an illusion, even if you don't value your time. I'm not sure <*>what the emissions laws are in your end of the country, but if they have an <*>inspection program the modifications you're considering will smoke the resale <*>value of the car. Well -- actually this car already has all the upgraded stuff - - - the only thing it's lacking is the V6 motor that it's brothers have. (The early predecessors had turbo-4's.) This car has the suspension mods, brakes, and even upgraded electrical system - - just not the other motor. <*> <*>If you don't have much money to spend, and want to really fly, buy a <*>motorcycle. Got one - -- 1971 Honda . . . . it's a blast. Plus - - my other car (besides the daily driver) is the one I like to have fun and fly in . . . just changing carb bought me ~1 second off quarter mile. Not bad for $450. <*> <*>Good Luck, and have fun with it whichever way you go. <*> <*>SBrady <*> Thanks again! ------------------------------ From: jgiles@xxx.ca (John Giles) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 15:22:00 CST Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... >I put the postscript file in the diy_efi www pages. Try: >http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~fridman/diy_efi/component_info/ > RF. Robert, Thanks for putting the files on the www page. I was able to download and print the .ps file. The datasheet is quite extensive (55 pages) - did you get the Postscript file direct from SSI? By the way, I originally tried reading the .pdf file with Adobe's Acrobat Reader, but it said that the file was password protected. Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: ws6transam@xxx.net (Daniel R Burk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:05 -0500 Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Steve: I wish you could have been there too. I think you are onto something when you say that emissions changes could be made with simple black-box techniques. More than likely it would come in the form of modifications to the Tech-1 diagnostic scan tool that GM sells to the dealership. You are right too. It is uncompetitive. I have to admit, I went round and round with our nameless VCM engineer about how it was a rather unpopular and unwise path that GM was taking. His argument was that if comeone wraps their supercharged, intercooled, computer-modified Chevy Z28 around a tree at 168MPH, it will be GM that gets sued, not the aftermarket manufacturers or the mechanic who installed all of this equipment. I said that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in that case. The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Anything that would change the net output of the powertrain (such as headers, modified intake tracts, non-stock gear ratios, cylinder porting, etc.) could place the powertrain outside it's programmed fuel map, causing an engine fault condition to be stored. Gee, if this was the old west, I'd feel kind of like I was buying a horse that could only follow the wagon trail where everyone else has already gone. Is trailblazing going to die? I doubt it. A few years of this cynical thinking will prevail, then some automotive company ( Nissan? Chrysler? Hyundai? ) will come out with this little ripper that is supported by a million aftermarket suppliers. Company supported modifications will make it the fastest(and cheapest) darn thing on two wheels and thousands of performance buffs will flock to a new badge. - -- Dan. ------------------------------ From: ws6transam@xxx.net (Daniel R Burk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:45:51 -0500 Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Steve: I wish you could have been there too. I think you are onto something when you say that emissions changes could be made with simple black-box techniques. More than likely it would come in the form of modifications to the Tech-1 diagnostic scan tool that GM sells to the dealership. You are right too. It is uncompetitive. I have to admit, I went round and round with our nameless VCM engineer about how it was a rather unpopular and unwise path that GM was taking. His argument was that if comeone wraps their supercharged, intercooled, computer-modified Chevy Z28 around a tree at 168MPH, it will be GM that gets sued, not the aftermarket manufacturers or the mechanic who installed all of this equipment. I said that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in that case. The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Anything that would change the net output of the powertrain (such as headers, modified intake tracts, non-stock gear ratios, cylinder porting, etc.) could place the powertrain outside it's programmed fuel map, causing an engine fault condition to be stored. Gee, if this was the old west, I'd feel kind of like I was buying a horse that could only follow the wagon trail where everyone else has already gone. Is trailblazing going to die? I doubt it. A few years of this cynical thinking will prevail, then some automotive company ( Nissan? Chrysler? Hyundai? ) will come out with this little ripper that is supported by a million aftermarket suppliers. Company supported modifications will make it the fastest(and cheapest) darn thing on two wheels and thousands of performance buffs will flock to a new badge. - -- Dan. ------------------------------ From: jwharris@xxx. Harris) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:21 EST Subject: Re: Re: All the EST >MTaylorfi@xxx.com writes: >> >> Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an >> EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of >> rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock >> electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My >> point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't >> do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to >> be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or >> dyno tests. > >uhm, this ain't the dragrace list, dude. For most of us the throttle >has many more positions than ON and OFF. Top fuelers run at WOT, near >constant load and speed i believe. They can't benefit from spark >advance of any form. My 68 Camaro's 350 on the other hand sees full throttle >at any speed between 1800 RPM and 5500RPM... and theres a significant >difference in MBT timing for 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT on my motor. >If I was just worried about WOT, tho, good ole mechanical advance would >do everything I need. But I spend a lot more time at part throttle on >the street than I do at WOT. And the difference between MBT timing >at 1800RPM idling and 1800RPM WOT is MUCH larger than the difference >between MBT timing at 1800RPM WOT and 5500RPM WOT. SO it probably won't >help your quarter mile... but it'll sure help your idle, fuel economy, >streetability, etc. > Well said, Johathan. And here's a quote from my list of famous ones. I'll post the rest if there is interest: "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. Unfortunately this is more of the same disease infecting NASCAR. I guess there are good arguments against adding electronic controls, but when INDY Cars can get ~750 H.P. from ~3.5 liters well. . . - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@xxx.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:35:48 Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... I'm currently building a Chev 350 for a HQ Monaro. After a long search I came up with the standard TPI system for the 85-89 Camaro's, not only does this look good, but a 2nd hand system it's a lot cheaper than any aftermarket system, and its also better than a throttle body system. All you need is a computer to run it, and there are lots of those around ranging from AU$800 - AU$2500 depending on what you want. I chose a AU$1400 system that allows for fuel and ignition mapping (then I can always change ignition system) from a remote hand piece, this way its easy to program the system. All up you can do this for about AU$3000, but if you are in the US you are laughing since you don't have to pay import duty and freight on everything. hope I have been of help. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 18/12/95 3:22 PM Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles ------------------------------ From: jwharris@xxx. Harris) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 21:33 EST Subject: RE: Playing with the ECM >If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! > Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to comment? On a lighter note at an SAE confrence on OBDII they were talking like manufacturers will be required to supply the hex scan codes for a particular parameters (TPS, etc.) right in the service manual. It seems there is supposed to be a low cost "minimum function" scan tool that doesn't have them programmed in already. The technician will have to enter the hex bytes by hand and the manual will tell how to interpret the response message. Tedious, but if it's true, a gold mine for you guys who want to make your own scan tools. Anybody seen this in a '96 manual? In the long run this stuff (Class II messages) will all probably become standard and public domain. Except for the securtiy algorithms to unlock the box and reprogram, do device control, etc. We can only hope. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@xxx.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: Steve Baldwin Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:46:05 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... > Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer ..... Somehow, you can tell. :-) Steve. ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 18:09:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Motorcycle speed density systems > in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally > found a source? Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what I've seen. Can you order a photocopy of the articles from Curcuit cellar, or do you have to get the whole set of 3 issues? (Or, who owns the copyright of the article... hint hint ;-) Cheers, Craig. ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 09:16:59 EST Subject: Re: All the EST > Now please don't get me wrong, but what is the point of going so ape over an > EST. Top fuelers are using Magnetos and runnin' fours. I see all kind of > rails at Bandimere speedway (1/4 mile track) that have either stock > electronic or minimumly modified ignition and the're runnin' sevens. My > point is why spend the time, effort and money to design something that won't > do better that what is out there (cost and performance). I'm not tryin' to > be a pessimist, but can someone show me actual quicker quarter mile times or > dyno tests. Part of this argument is predicated on the assumption that the absence of EST in Top Fuel drag racing is because it's not the best thing. As I understand it, EST is specifically disallowed there, so we really don't know if EST is worse or no better for this application than the systems mentioned. My guess is that this is yet another attempt by the sanctioning bodies to "control costs" or "keep things competitive" as we have seen in many (too many?) other series. (I suspect that this viewpoint results from marketing being influenced by technical ignorance or prejudice.) I read an article once (don't remember the source) about the ignition systems used in Top Fuel. One team spent $50,000 just to get reliable spark delivery and timing. The engineer they hired used special materials for the points and rigged a system to flood the system with CO2 during the run, presumably to reduce pitting or perhaps to allow higher voltages. Reliable high speed ignition is tough enough in a normal engine and must be many times tougher in Top Fuel. You probably need enourmous spark energies at those boost levels and insane air/fuel ratios. It's really tough to get such energies out of traditional mechanical systems due to inherent limitations. It seems much easier to get these energies out of modern electronic systems. Maybe you don't need varying spark advance, but it seems to me you need consistent advance. With bouncing points and torsional vibrations in a distributor, this becomes a problem; not insoluble, just tough. EST would solve that problem easily. Plus, I don't think one should so casually ignore the initial 0.5 second when engine speed is changing; maybe you could pick up another 0.05 there by having a flexible and more accurate advance system. That could win a championship. Just another guess, but I'm wondering if the reason RPM (and thus horsepower) isn't higher in Top Fuel engines is in part due to an RPM limitation of the ignition system. Again, something easily solved with EST. Ideal spark advance as well as spark energy in normal engines varies with manifold pressure and fuel/air ratio. Although the combustion process with nitromethane is quite different, I'll bet there are parallels. In a Top Fuel dragster, you have manifold pressure variations as the engine spins up and as you get more ram-air at higher speeds. You also get air/fuel variations due to the acceleration throwing the fuel and air toward the rear cylinders, which also changes over the course of the run. I think the situation is a lot less steady-state than it initially appears. EST would be a nice way to take care of these things. Having some intelligence on board could really help things, I would think. You've only got something like 2,000-2,500 cylinder firings during the run, so every one better count. Just thinking off the top of my head, you could do some nice misfire detection, at least for diagnostic purposes. Maybe you could have an advanced misfire recovery algorithm, like do a flood clear on the next revolution so you can recover sooner. There's no reason a properly controlled system should be spraying streams of nitrous out the pipes, as you see quite frequently. Weather conditions change over the course of a day, and if you could account for some of this automatically and accurately you'd have an advantage. The Holy Grail is, of course, traction control, which was tried (sorry I'm forgetting which team) and was so successful it was banned. So now I understand they achieve largely the same thing by a pneumatically operated progressive clutch that limits delivered torque by a pre-programmed series of clutch plate engagements. Pneumatic or electronic, it's still a computer executing an algorithm, so I don't know why it is allowed and a microcontroller you would find on any new car isn't. If you haven't guessed by now, I have *no* experience with Top Fuel, so please feel free to correct me as necessary. Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:20:13 EST Subject: Re: ECM/PCM/VCM modifications Dan Burk wrote: >I said >that was a rather cynical outlook, and that if GM suceeded in their attempt >to stop aftermarket tampering, that I would just go buy a Ford. He said >Ford was doing the same thing. I said I would then go buy a Mitsubishi, in >that case. > >The intent (according to this engineer) it not just to prevent VCM >modifications, but to establish operating parameters for stock engines that >make it prohibitively expensive to modify. Part of the reason is that new government regulations *require* the automakers (all of them) to implement strategies that prevent anyone from changing the code in the ECM/PCM/VCM. Souping up cars is one way that people enjoy these products. It's especially nice because it tends to make the product more visible. These facts are not lost on the automakers (especially since they are populated by a bunch of car nuts frequently working on their own side projects). The problem is that nobody has yet figured out a way to make a car that the customer can modify *and* comply with all the new regulations. If that wasn't an issue, it would probably come down to warranty and liability concerns, which have never before incited the industry to attempt such extreme measures. As it is, nobody really has the resources to put the time into figuring out this problem, especially to address such a small segment of the market. That's where the aftermarket can step in. It's going to be a real challenge for them, both technically and legally. The thought of not being able to toy with my car breaks my heart. Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group * The writing above comprises my personal opinions only and does not reflect an official or unoffical position of my employer. * ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:48:50 EST Subject: CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) Craig Pugsley wrote: >> in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > >> I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally >> found a source? >Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what >I've seen. > >Can you order a photocopy of the articles from Curcuit cellar, or do you >have to get the whole set of 3 issues? (Or, who owns the copyright of >the article... hint hint ;-) You can order back issues from Circuit Cellar. I don't think you can order article reprints, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. Just out of curiousity, is the price of these things really an issue, or is it more the availability? CCI now owns the copyright to the article (sorry...). I'd like to recommend to anyone having difficulty, especially those overseas, that you may want to voice your concerns directly to the Editor-in-Chief, Ken Davidson (Ken.Davidson@xxx. Ed Lansinger ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:23:37 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: CCI article (was Motorcycle Speed Density Systems) > You can order back issues from Circuit Cellar. I don't think you can > order article reprints, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask. > > Just out of curiousity, is the price of these things really an issue, > or is it more the availability? Availability mainly.. Also I'm a cheapskate ;-) I just came back from a US trip and had a warm glow when I saw the (last part of the) article seeing the diy_efi and 332 lists printed at the end.. Sure made the world seem a lot smaller. Cheers, Craig. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 16:01:01 Subject: Re[2]: Hi ! Just joined the list...... This is great, common replies to the main system is much easier than answering everyone seperately. First of all, for those who don't know, a HQ Monaro (4 door) is probably the equivalent of a 73' Camaro, in fact I think GMH may have got a lot of design help from GM. Anyway, I haven't fitted it yet, but hope to have it all done by mid Jan 96 (have to wait for my holidays). I chose the Wolf 3D system, basically because it was cheaper than the others like Motec, Haltec, Injec, EMC, etc. etc. etc. They basically all have the same features, fuel mapping, ignition mapping (usually only on the more expensive versions), throttle injector cut off when cranking, accelerator enrichment, barometric pressure compensation, injector current control, air temp compensation, MAP or TPS sensing, cranking fuel rate, rev limiter, cold enrichment, staged injection, turbo facility, post start enrichment, EFI pump shut down. Basically, unlike most others where a lap top is required to program the computer, this system has a remote hand piece with 4 line 16 char LCD and a number of buttons that lets you do all the programming. Multiple programs can be set up so that you can instantly change to them while you drive by selecting a new program from the hand piece. The hand piece can be removed if not required, but it does display a number of useful things while you drive, RPM, injector pulse width, air temp, water temp, mixture indicator, throttle position, manifold vacuum, voltage, etc. I don't think it is any better than the other brands, apart from the analogue systems, except that is is cheaper. All the features are basically the same. I hope this has explained everything. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 19/12/95 10:35 AM I'm currently building a Chev 350 for a HQ Monaro. After a long search I came up with the standard TPI system for the 85-89 Camaro's, not only does this look good, but a 2nd hand system it's a lot cheaper than any aftermarket system, and its also better than a throttle body system. All you need is a computer to run it, and there are lots of those around ranging from AU$800 - AU$2500 depending on what you want. I chose a AU$1400 system that allows for fuel and ignition mapping (then I can always change ignition system) from a remote hand piece, this way its easy to program the system. All up you can do this for about AU$3000, but if you are in the US you are laughing since you don't have to pay import duty and freight on everything. hope I have been of help. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 18/12/95 3:22 PM Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple of grand. What are some options? Thanks in advance for any help..... jgiles ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #7 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".