DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 20 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 008 In this issue: Re: 67f687 chip ... Carb vs. FI Re: Playing with the ECM RE: BKM's box? RCPT: EFI332 Project RE: BKM's box? Reference information about Knock Sensors Re: Reference information about Knock Sensors Re: 67f687 chip ... Re: Playing with the ECM Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... Knock sensing Re: Playing with the ECM Knock sensing See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: adennison@xxx.au Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:36:28 Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... In article "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" writes: >>67f687.pdf (binary) >>67f687.ps (ascii) >>67f687.zip (binary) >Andrew, >Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe >you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. I'm away for 3 weeks (with remote mail access) remind me in January. There are email servers for ftp access. Andrew ------------------------------ From: Derrick Early Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 6:43:56 "EST Subject: Carb vs. FI Has anyone read the Hot Rod article about Carb vs FI? What were the conclusions to the article? The title said something like the "dyno knows." Yours, - -- Derrick Early early@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: c1ilep@xxx. Piekarski) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:22:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM > >>If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >>three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >>access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >>non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! >> >Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big >curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder >still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES >lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything >about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think >this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to >comment? I have heard that also. I don't think a bad Class II message would cause it to lock up, but there were two different modes that would cause the device to set a code that would disable fuel and could not be cleared by the dealer. On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that requirement was one of the more advanced OBDII requirements. I haven't worked with the stuff in over a year, so maybe it's changed. It seemed there was a lot of waffling on the issue a year ago, so there probably still is. I guess CARB was upset that people just drove around with a bad sensor and the check engine light on. They want to disable fuel under certain conditions to FORCE your to take your car in. In 1984, Big Brother was watching, in 1997 he drives your car. - -- (* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) (* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) (* lepiekar@xxx.com *) (* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) ------------------------------ From: "Nietzsche is dead. -God" Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:30:18 EDT Subject: RE: BKM's box? Hmm... Funny you should ask. I have been corresponding with Dave Steinmeyer for a while now on thier 8096 box. I am working on the Formula SAE racing team here at the University of Hartfoed and this is the first year that we're trying to do an efi. The controller itself is an Intel 8096... a beast of a microcontroller.If you have any questions, e-mail me. I have his # and address, but I don't know if he wants me to put it in cyberspace. It was hard enogh to get the info, though and I would rather save you the time. --Mark ------------------------------ From: "Viv Vendeirinho @xxx.com> Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:44:03 +0200 Subject: RCPT: EFI332 Project Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 28 Nov 95 8:46 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: EFI332 Project Was read at 15:04, 19 Dec 95. ======================================================== Vivian Rato-Vendeirinho Motorola Line Manager Advanced Semiconductor Devices Johannesburg, SOUTH AFRICA Voice: +27-11-444-2333 Fax: +27-11-444-1706 Email: asdviv@xxx.com ======================================================== ------------------------------ From: Derrick Early Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 12:22:49 "EST Subject: RE: BKM's box? > Hmm... Funny you should ask. I have been corresponding with Dave Steinmeyer > for a while now on thier 8096 box. I am working on the Formula SAE racing team > here at the University of Hartfoed and this is the first year that we're trying > to do an efi. > > The controller itself is an Intel 8096... a beast of a microcontroller.If you have any questions, e-mail me. I have his # and address, but I don't > know if he wants me to put it in cyberspace. It was hard enogh to get the > info, though and I would rather save you the time. Mark, I had a hard time finding Nietzsche's email address. :) Yes, I would like to contact Dave S. I may have an interesting application for his box. Please email to me directly when you have a chance. - -- Derrick Early early@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: steveb@xxx.com Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:36:41 -0800 Subject: Reference information about Knock Sensors I would appreciate it if one of you in the know can point me to a good reference work that covers the function of the knock sensor. I am interested in knowing if they are tuned for particular freq- uencies, and such. They appear to be very much like ceramic ele- ment microphones ... is there any signal processing circuitry on the sensor, or is the processing done in the ECU? TIA! Steve Buchholz s_buchho@xxx.com San Jose, CA (USA) ------------------------------ From: robert dingli Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:05:06 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Reference information about Knock Sensors Steve Buchholz asks, > > I would appreciate it if one of you in the know can point me to a > good reference work that covers the function of the knock sensor. > I am interested in knowing if they are tuned for particular freq- > uencies, and such. They appear to be very much like ceramic ele- > ment microphones ... is there any signal processing circuitry on > the sensor, or is the processing done in the ECU? > There are several SAE references on the topic although you may have to go back a few years to find references to articles about products which have been available for many years now. A relatively recent article (SAE 940146) describes various signal processing methods within the ECU and comes to the conclusion that a band pass filter coupled with a time window for sampling is the best choice. Determining a suitable reference or threshold to distinguish between background noise and dangerous knock is the difficult part. You could try contacting Bosch and/or Nippondenso to get technical information on their products. I know that Bosch, at least, make sensors which inherently band pass filter the signal mechanically as well as broad band sensors. In either case, further filtering would be required within the ECU. regards, Robert - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems Thermodynamics Research Lab Electrical Engineering Mechanical Engineering (+613) 9344 7966 (+613) 9344 6728 University of Melbourne, Parkville, 3052, Victoria, AUSTRALIA - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:23:06 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: 67f687 chip ... > > In article "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" writes: > >>67f687.pdf (binary) > >>67f687.ps (ascii) > >>67f687.zip (binary) > > >Andrew, > >Are these files also on the WWW page? I don't have access to ftp. Maybe > >you could just email me the 67f687.pdf file. > > I'm away for 3 weeks (with remote mail access) remind me in January. There are > email servers for ftp access. Those files are on the web page (and the .pdf worked for me too BTW- how do they cram 55 pages of data book into 250k??) Unfortunately I can't find the web page ref just now but a postscript version is at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/component_info/component_info.html Cheers, Craig. ------------------------------ From: jwharris@xxx. Harris) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:20 EST Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM >On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that Yeah, I forgot about this one if it fails the first checksum on startup, the injectors will be inhibited. Changing one bit will cause it to fail. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.W. Harris Delco Electronics Corp. Project Engineer One Corporate Center Powertrain Electronics M.S. CT40C Kokomo, IN 46904-9005 jwharris@xxx.com Of course, all responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:47:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Hi ! Just joined the list...... > > >Hello everyone. I'm an electriacl engineer and my main hobby is my corvette. >I want to drop fuel injection on it. I haven't looked too much at after market >stuff for this area so what kind of efi kits are out there that are good. > >I'm looking for something that is adjustable and that I could re-program >once I get into it a little more. I'd also like to keep it under a couple >of grand. > >What are some options? > >Thanks in advance for any help..... > >jgiles > > > > > MR. Giles I will be selling a low cost system soon that is easy to use. The first system will be fuel only, but later I will add an ignition control. And later next year I will have a full sequential injection and ignition system. For info, Email me. David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us (john carroll) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 19:00:22 PST Subject: Knock sensing Harris Semiconductor makes a wonderful knock sensor processor, HIP9010. I use it in an aircraft engine ignition controller that I build. It is the only way that I have been able to hear throught all the banging and slapping that goes on in one of those lightly built engines under normal conditions. It will allow you to watch a narrow frequency band and compare it to the realtive power in another band. You can switch back and forth between different physical sensors between ignition pulses and even switch bands before and after each spark event to watch different frequencies. The device puts out an analog signal to indicate relative power. You set the gain for each of the comparison channels After using it in the analog mode for a while I figured out that it is better and faster to set the gain and use it as a binary input instead of doing an analog conversion each time. I use it with aftermarker GM style sensors. About any thing would work. A clever person could build a device that would make good use of this part. I have considered a system that would monitor and record transmission and gear noises on heavy equipment. If things begin to change rapidly it could signal for a shut down. You can get a data sheet from their fax back system at 407/742-3937. some one needs to buy a bunch of these so that they do not go the way of the Silicons Systems device. I would like to communicate with any one that has experience with this device. John Carroll 307 674-8469 ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:33:48 -0800 Subject: Re: Playing with the ECM You wrote: > >> >>>If someone like me, or you, or Hypertech, tries to gain access and change level >>>three type of information in the new '97 VCM, and does not have the correct >>>access code the FIRST TIME, the VCM will lock itself down into a >>>non-functional unit that cannot be restarted except by engineers at Delco!! >>> >>Yes, I personally think OBDII is going to throw the aftermarket a really big >>curve. Hacking into the box and reprogramming it is going to be harder >>still. Removing the EEPROM and recalibrating it in such a way that no SES >>lights will be set will be even harder still. I haven't heard anything >>about VCM's rendering themselvs useless with bad ClassII messages. I think >>this one is wild speculation. Any of you other Delco guys (or gals) care to >>comment? > >I have heard that also. I don't think a bad Class II message would cause it to >lock up, but there were two different modes that would cause the device to >set a code that would disable fuel and could not be cleared by the dealer. >On was if it failed ROM checksum. I can't remember the other. I thought that >requirement was one of the more advanced OBDII requirements. I haven't worked >with the stuff in over a year, so maybe it's changed. It seemed there was >a lot of waffling on the issue a year ago, so there probably still is. > >I guess CARB was upset that people just drove around with a bad sensor and the >check engine light on. They want to disable fuel under certain conditions to >FORCE your to take your car in. In 1984, Big Brother was watching, in 1997 >he drives your car. >-- >(* Larry Piekarski, Lead Software Engineer *) >(* Luxury Car HVAC Display Heads *) >(* lepiekar@xxx.com *) >(* Delco Electronics, Kokomo, IN *) > remember seatbelt starter interlocks ; the gov. finally allowed them to be dissconnected. ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us (john carroll) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 21:56:56 PST Subject: Knock sensing I really got an immediate flood of communication about knock sensing. I have a project that MUST be done in the next few days. Between Christmas and the new year I will put together a description of my use the 9010. Get the data sheet and study it. It is necessary to buy a bunch of the things at a time. I have a few but do not want to be without. I will fine out a minimum purchase and cost. Could put together a group buy. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #8 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".