DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 24 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 012 In this issue: Re: MGB Re: MGB Re: MGB O2 sensors Re: O2 sensors Re: TiO2 and leaded fuel. RE: O2 sensors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:43:42 -0500 Subject: Re: MGB I need to know what level of electronics design and assembly you are at. Don't be modest, give it to me straight and it will help me give you the right ideas. The Starion air mass meter was fitted to every Starion and Conquest ever made anywhere in the world from 83 to whenever they stopped. I believe a lot of other Mitsubish turbo cars were fitted with it as well, all from the same era. In a junk yard you need to remove the whole airbox and disconnect it from the loom. I believe the air box is fixed with 2 bolts through the fender wall. If you must stay with one injector, it needs to be sized pretty accurately. How much power do you expect from the engine - 125HP? I think someone on the list will be able to calculate an injector size for us. Now, the system I am proposing is radically different in operation from the normal EFI. Normal EFI injects once per firing stroke if sequential, and twice if batch fired, and the injection pulse width varies from 2 to 20 mS. This system will inject faster as the air speed increases and the pulse width wil be constant. It will be adjustable, but as your basic mixture control. The air mass meter will give out a train of pulses which increases in speed as more air is drawn though it. In theory each certain amount of air requires a certain amount of fuel, so you count the number of pulses and give a squirt from the injector. Then it doesn't matter what the engine is doing, if it is using air, it is getting the mixture in the correct proportions. This will run the car fine. The fine tuning ie cold starts, battery voltage compensation etc, need to be done to make the vehicle an everyday practical proposition, and exactly how you do this will depend on you electronic skills. However, you should be able to get the whole system working nicely for $50 plus the air meter ($100 or less?) Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:18:55 -0500 Subject: Re: MGB >I need to know what level of electronics design and assembly you are at. >Don't be modest, give it to me straight and it will help me give you the >right ideas. > Well, OK I'll not be modest...I worked as a field service rep, in the industrial/HVAC controls industry for years and am now in sales. Have most of the basic stuff: Logic probe, scope, DVM, etc. and access to storage scope, etc. The "electronics" portion of such a project would present no problem. I also have a lathe, milling machine, drill press, etc. so making mechanical adaptor parts will not be a problem. (I did install the Bosch LU Jetronic, making the wiring harness, adaptors, etc.) > >The Starion air mass meter was fitted to every Starion and Conquest ever >made anywhere in the world from 83 to whenever they stopped. I believe a lot >of other Mitsubish turbo cars were fitted with it as well, all from the same >era. In a junk yard you need to remove the whole airbox and disconnect it >from the loom. I believe the air box is fixed with 2 bolts through the >fender wall. > >If you must stay with one injector, it needs to be sized pretty accurately. >How much power do you expect from the engine - 125HP? I have the software, from MSD, and 52#/hr. is about right. I expect to produce between 110 and 120 HP > >I think someone on the list will be able to calculate an injector size for us. > >Now, the system I am proposing is radically different in operation from the >normal EFI. Normal EFI injects once per firing stroke if sequential, and >twice if batch fired, and the injection pulse width varies from 2 to 20 mS. >This system will inject faster as the air speed increases and the pulse >width wil be constant. It will be adjustable, but as your basic mixture control. At 6,000 RPM this comes to 5 MS if fired once/cycle... > >The air mass meter will give out a train of pulses which increases in speed >as more air is drawn though it. In theory each certain amount of air >requires a certain amount of fuel, so you count the number of pulses and >give a squirt from the injector. Then it doesn't matter what the engine is >doing, if it is using air, it is getting the mixture in the correct >proportions. This will run the car fine. > >The fine tuning ie cold starts, battery voltage compensation etc, need to be >done to make the vehicle an everyday practical proposition, and exactly how >you do this will depend on you electronic skills. Is there enough info. on the system to enable me to figure out what to change to adapt it to my car??? However, you should be >able to get the whole system working nicely for $50 plus the air meter ($100 >or less?) > >Peter Wales >President Superchips Inc >Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" > > >All and all sounds like something to look into.....Recommended reading???...I'll stop by the local PEP Boys and see what the Haynes manual on these cars has to offer. They usually have good wiring diagrams, etc..... Looking forward to your reply, and If I don't talk to you in the next day or so, MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and yours.. Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 16:30:16 -0500 Subject: Re: MGB >Well, OK I'll not be modest... Good, at least this should be fairly simple to start with and get more complex as you choose. The object is to create an analogue injection system, and then develop a computer control system. The system I am proposing will fit any car, with any number of cylinders and any number of injectors. It will give the same amount of HP as any other system, and the driveability will depend upon exactly how much work you want to do on the microprocessor end. I have used this system to generate over 300Hp on a Turbo Starion Race car. However, lets start at the simple part to get the engine running. First, you need to acquire the air mass meter. It has 4 wires coming from it, Gnd, +12v, output and a diode for air temperature compensation. Ignore the diode for now. The output needs a pullup resistor to supply and this can be 4k7. Now we have a square wave which increases in frequency with the air flow. You need to feed the square wave into a Cmos monostable such as a 555 (It must be Cmos). The potentiometer on it needs to be able to adjust the pulse from 2 to 5 mS and this will be the mixture control. The voltage control will come from our CPU later so just decouple it for now. The output needs to go into a Darlington driver and this must be rated high enough in voltage to withstand the back EMF generated by the injector. (TIP 121) The injector may need a resistor in series with it if it is low impedance. If it is, grab the ones from the Starion, they are about 4-5 R. Make it run and see what happens. If it is too rich, you may need to put a divider after the air mass meter and before the monostable. On the race car I ended up with a divide by 12 and 2 1000cc/min injectors (100lb/hr) If any one else is proposing to try this system and they want to use multiple injectors, use one 555 for each injector and let them all run at once. You will need a divider and if you are clever, you could make a sequencer so that each injector fires at a different time from any other. >At 6,000 RPM this comes to 5 MS if fired once/cycle... 6000 RPM is 10mS every other cycle is 20mS >Is there enough info. on the system to enable me to figure out what to change to adapt it to my car??? > You need to change nothing on it because it is simple. The changeable part, you are going to build. With the tools you have you can test everything on the bench before fitting it to the car. >>All and all sounds like something to look into.....Recommended reading???...I'll stop by the local PEP Boys and see what the Haynes manual on these cars has to offer. They usually have good wiring diagrams, etc..... I hope you can find something. I have the workshop manual in England and can get it sent over if I need it. Have a good Christmas Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Sat, 23 Dec 95 16:00:13 MDT Subject: O2 sensors Yo: I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I see from engine operation. The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). I'm wondering if it could be one of two problems: 1. the O2 sensor is not reaching full operating temperature because it is in the header collector which is some distance from the exhaust port... With regards to point 1, what is the advantage of the newer heated oxygen sensors used on some systems? Is the heating circuit strictly to improve response time on startup and allow the EFI to run closed loop sooner, or is it something different altogether? Would using heated O2 sensors correct this condition if this is the problem? 2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean because of the different stoich point for propane... With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. regards dn - -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/\ ------------------------------ From: BradyEng@xxx.com Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 22:40:41 -0500 Subject: Re: O2 sensors In a message dated 95-12-23 18:35:27 EST, you write: >I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors >in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED >bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The >readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I >see from engine operation. > >The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle >openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of >power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was >actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons >long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor >output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point >the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). > >2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 >sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean >because of the different stoich point for propane... > >With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to >correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with >alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a >correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. I would like to second this question on O2 sensors. It appears to me that the garden variety used in production autos are basically go-nogo gauges for rich-lean. However, meters with O2 sensors are sold which are reported to be useful tuning aids and accurate to ~0.5 A/F. Does anyone have comments on prices, sources, and performance of the sensors used in the aftermarket systems? To answer a question in this query directly Bob Behn wrote an article in Turbo Bike Volume IV Number I on air fuel ratio meters that included data for alchohol and propane. Turbo Bike is available from Joe Haile Enterprises, PO Box 8000725, Valencia, CA 91380-0725, Tel 805-255-3426. Bob Behn sells an A/F meter @ RB Racing 1625 W. 134th St., Gardena, CA 90249, Tel 310-515-5720. Meters are also available from K&N @xxx. I've seen the K&N in operation on a street KZ1000 (4 cyl air cooled 2 valve motorcycle) with a header. It took a while to warm up, but sure speeded up the jetting process. The short version is that stoichiometric is stoichiometric on the gage or O2 sensor, although the actual A/F ratio changes with fuel . Rich and Lean Best Torque are between about 86% and 92% of stoichiometric. The problem is that O2 concentration just doesn't change much below stoichiometric. CO becomes a much better indicator, but I havn't heard of real time sensors for this. I'm sure this topic has been covered before in this forum, but I would very much appreciate it if it was discussed again. Thanks SBrady ------------------------------ From: gt0035b@xxx.edu (Henry David Sommer) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 01:35:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: TiO2 and leaded fuel. Derrick Early wrote > > Hello efi'ers, > > I was digging through the archives and discovered a reference to TiO2 sensors > for lambda control. Do these things really work with leaded gas? Does > any one know of a vendor? I don't know about TiO2s but the ZrO2s that Bosche sells are rated for a certaiin life at a certain lead content. The numbers were in the info I put on the web a litle while ago. Unfortunatly that page has gone down and you'll have to get the info from Bosche or someone else that got it off me. Sorry Henry Sommer | gt0035b@xxx.edu | Georgia Institute of Technology Year 88 | 90 | 91 | 92 | 93 | 94 | 95 | 96 | ME and MATE | FSAE since 92 car # 66 | 23 | 23 | 42 | 42 | 99 | 99 | 55 | Maintainer of FSAE mailing list place 11 | 2 | 6 | 23 | 3 | 6 | 11 | ? | FSAE-request@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:53:07 -0800 Subject: RE: O2 sensors - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The subject of calibrating output of sensors to fool the stock computer = got beat to death about a month ago on the list. It is possible to not have enough temp and that would account for the = readings you are getting, but I think that your readings are probably = due to the propane. Remember, the sensor is reporting O2, not anything = else. It is calibrated to output a given voltage based on a range of O2 = content that coincides with combustion properties for gasoline. You may = just be off the scale when measuring O2 from combustion of propane. I = wish I could help more on this, but I never got to the O2 sensor stage = when I was experimenting with propane injection previous. You may want = to try sticking the sensor in one of the primary tubes right up on that = first bend where it gets hotter than hell just to see if you get the = same readings... if you do then can probably assume that we are going to = have to figure out how to compenstate for the false output. As far as = confirming if the engine is indeed running that lean you can rev it up = and hold it there, then just put your hand near the air horn of the carb = and see if it speeds up. You could also try a heated sensor to see what = you get. Meanwhile I will try to find something that gives a comparison = on what the total exhaust contents are between gas and propane... might = just be that propane puts of way less or more O2 when at stoich. - -j- - ---------- From: dn[SMTP:dn@xxx.ca] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 1995 2:00 PM To: Darrell Norquay Subject: O2 sensors Yo: I need some info on oxygen sensors... I have installed two O2 sensors in my header collectors (350 V8). These are attached to two LED bargraph meters for monitoring purposes only at this point. The readings I get from the sensors are not really agreeing with what I see from engine operation. The sensors show basically full lean (<100 mV) at almost all throttle openings, which I cannot see because the engine runs fine, has lots of power, etc. The engine has 30000 mi with no problems, if it was actually running this lean it would have eaten head gaskets or pistons long before now. The only time I really get a change in O2 sensor output is under deceleration (throttle fully closed) at which point the bargraphs show full rich (>950 mV). I'm wondering if it could be one of two problems: 1. the O2 sensor is not reaching full operating temperature because it is in the header collector which is some distance from the exhaust port... With regards to point 1, what is the advantage of the newer heated oxygen sensors used on some systems? Is the heating circuit strictly to improve response time on startup and allow the EFI to run closed loop sooner, or is it something different altogether? Would using heated O2 sensors correct this condition if this is the problem? 2. the engine is running on propane fuel, is it possible that the O2 sensor is not responding with the correct reading for rich/lean because of the different stoich point for propane... With regards to this point, if this is the case, is it possible to correct the O2 sensor output to reflect the correct voltage with alternative fuels such as propane? Any info on how to calculate a correction factor (if necessary) would be appreciated. regards dn - -- \/<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<= <<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>= >>>>/\ - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAD19A.90834240 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjAIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB 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