DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 29 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 017 In this issue: re: Re: cheaper FI computers Hack thought for MAS system??? Re: 2 Questions about GM-TBI Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? re: User Friendly Interface re: User Friendly Interface re: User Friendly Interface re: User Friendly Interface re: User Friendly Interface DIY_EFI Vendor List Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? re: User Friendly Interface User Friendly Programming Interface See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 10:26:37 CST Subject: re: Re: cheaper FI computers orin@xxx. Harding) Wrote: | | | >Hmm.. How about diy_efi mate's rates from the guys on the list who | >make/sell this stuff.. Or you could wait a while for the EFI332 guys to | >get something together ;-) | | | Word has it that the EFI332 guy's are not going to have a simple to use | programming interface for quite some time. This will keep a lot of us from | trying to use that system. Hopefully they'll change their mind and develop a | "user friendly" software pa | ckage.. | Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC | ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) | | Don't count on that... There's a lot of people (like me) who are patiently waiting for the hardware types to finish up so we can get started on the software. Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: jzalesny@xxx.com (JimZ -92' AWD Tsi ) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:10:03 -0800 Subject: Hack thought for MAS system??? I'm new and just getting into thoughts about modifying my current MAS system and injectors and would like information why the this will not work before I give it a try. Car 92 Talon 2.0 turbocharged I would like to enter a secondary air source down stream from the MAS so more air is entered into the system which will be unmetered. As I see it the vaccum from the engine will pull from both air sources at the same rate at any given r.p.m. To compensate for the lean condition(s) that would result I would install larger injectors. I think a larger injector would provide more fuel at a given pulse width thereby compensating for the extra airflow. Now how bad would the pre programed fuel curves handle this setup? I can see the ECU able to compensate for a idle and minor fuel difficientsies by input from the O2 sensor. This hack would also eliminate the fuel cut that is experienced by turbo charged vehicles when the MAS detects too much air entering the system. Matching the injectors to the air flow would be the next problem. Thanks for any advice JimZ ------------------------------ From: "Brandon L. Walters" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:19:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: 2 Questions about GM-TBI On Wed, 27 Dec 1995 FIScot@xxx.com wrote: > That being done, I still have two questions. Will the stock peak-and > -hold injector drivers like having double the load if I parallel the If the stock drivers are set to peak at Ip/ hold Ih, and were already really doing that as O.E., It seems like the parallel setup causes the same current to be divided between the to injectors. My guess is the drivers live, but now you go back and adjust something because you have two solenoids, but lower current in each. I am going to find out what the impedance of my injectors are. If the driver was actually using some "load-line", and you parallel them, you may get toast. > Also, the firing order. The intake is an Offy 360. It is similar to > an open plenum with a divider in the middle. This puts cylinder #7 > just 90 crank degrees after cylinder #5, with another 630 crank degrees > until cylinder #5 fires again. Will this set-up have a big mixture > distribution problem? That is, will cylinder #5 receive most of the > fuel that is injected? I'll buy that - because our firing order is 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2 - maybe with supercharging it's OK. To me it looks like each side of that manifold will see pulses at 0,270,450,and 540 degrees (reverse for the right side). Seems like for a normally aspirated 350, it'd be nice to combine the intake pulses of 1,4,6,7 on one hole - and 8,3,5,2 on the other. (Chevy cyl. numbering). I wonder if I'm not describing the "Crossfire" setup. I am trying to lookup a picture of one to be sure. > TPI has long runners. This makes great mid-range torque. Great for > gas mileage, and I imagine a great tow-motor in a truck. I wanted to see just how accurate you could get with TBI before it quits being any fun. I like the ruggedness of it, and the low fuel rail pressure. Seems like any old car with dual SU's would do as well with dual GM 2.5 liter TBI's, and a dirt-simple ECU. Happy New Year, Brandon Walters ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:52:56 Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? >I would like to enter a secondary air source down stream from the MAS >so more air is entered into the system which will be unmetered. As I >see it the vaccum from the engine will pull from both air sources at >the same rate at any given r.p.m. Most MAF sensors I've seen output 0 to 5 volts as a function of air-flow. You could just tack some electronics in the output line that divided the output signal down so say 5v from the MAF get's transmitted to the ECO as 4.0v for example. i.e stick a divider on the input signal to the ECU. This would increase the amount of air the MAF could flow before the ECU pulled the plug. >To compensate for the lean >condition(s) that would result I would install larger injectors. I >think a larger injector would provide more fuel at a given pulse width >thereby compensating for the extra airflow. You could save on the new injectors and just jack up the fuel rail pressure to create the extra flow for a given p/w. > Now how bad would the pre >programed fuel curves handle this setup? I can see the ECU able to >compensate for a idle and minor fuel difficientsies by input from the >O2 sensor. Closed loop idle and closed loop running is where I'd see it all falling down. The adaptive values learnt may be so large that they could hit the max/min adaptive value clips and so cause the ECU to believe that the HEGO(s) had failed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@xxx.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:52:56 Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? >I would like to enter a secondary air source down stream from the MAS >so more air is entered into the system which will be unmetered. As I >see it the vaccum from the engine will pull from both air sources at >the same rate at any given r.p.m. Most MAF sensors I've seen output 0 to 5 volts as a function of air-flow. You could just tack some electronics in the output line that divided the output signal down so say 5v from the MAF get's transmitted to the ECO as 4.0v for example. i.e stick a divider on the input signal to the ECU. This would increase the amount of air the MAF could flow before the ECU pulled the plug. >To compensate for the lean >condition(s) that would result I would install larger injectors. I >think a larger injector would provide more fuel at a given pulse width >thereby compensating for the extra airflow. You could save on the new injectors and just jack up the fuel rail pressure to create the extra flow for a given p/w. > Now how bad would the pre >programed fuel curves handle this setup? I can see the ECU able to >compensate for a idle and minor fuel difficientsies by input from the >O2 sensor. Closed loop idle and closed loop running is where I'd see it all falling down. The adaptive values learnt may be so large that they could hit the max/min adaptive value clips and so cause the ECU to believe that the HEGO(s) had failed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@xxx.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:59:48 -0700 Subject: re: User Friendly Interface orin@xxx. Harding) Wrote: >Hopefully they'll change their mind and >develop a "user friendly" software package.. If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE times longer to code than I had anticipated ... You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, but the user interface is there (almost ;) Jim ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:29:34 -0700 Subject: re: User Friendly Interface > >Hopefully they'll change their mind and > >develop a "user friendly" software package.. > > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) > > Jim > Let's hear more! I was working on some cheezy code that displays a 3-D map, alows you to rotate it among all axis, and tweek values up and down, but if a _real_ programmer was working on something similar, I'd be better off heating up the soldering iron! ------------------------------ From: Martin Scarr Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: User Friendly Interface On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Land Shark wrote: > orin@xxx. Harding) Wrote: > > >Hopefully they'll change their mind and > >develop a "user friendly" software package.. > > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) > > Jim Jim- When you say it will work for "ANY type of box", does that include GM boxes? Martin Scarr ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:06:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: re: User Friendly Interface Jim wrote: > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) This is an excellent plan. Make the programming software compatible with many types of EFI boxes. That way, when new / cheaper hardware is available, the transition from one setup to the next will be relatively easy. Being a hardware engineer, I find that designing the hardware for the EFI computer (microcontroller, etc) to be straightforward, not too expensive, and relatively quick. It's the *programming* that will take so much time. This includes the actual EFI algorithms, the protocol, and the host software (GUI interface). Not to mention the tuning for each particular engine. Developing a good GUI interface that becomes widely used (bug free) and that is public domain will be an incredible asset to the DIY EFI world. This is key. Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:13:34 -0500 Subject: re: User Friendly Interface > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) Jim...I'll take you up on your offer!!!! I now have an Electromotive TEC II and I would love to beta test your software with it..Let me know if you have any interest in this... Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 21:33:12 -0500 Subject: DIY_EFI Vendor List - --=====================_820229592==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yesterday I posted this list but failed to convert it to a .txt file from the .doc file. Here it is again, as a txt file, and appologies to all for the mess I sent yesterday.. - --=====================_820229592==_ Content-Type: text/plain; name="EFI_SYS.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QWZ0ZXIgTWFya2V0IEVGSSBTeXN0ZW1zDQoNCjEuIEVsZWN0cm9tb3RpdmUsIEluYy4sIDE0MDA0 LUogV2lsbGFyZCBSb2FkLCBDaGFudGlsbHksIFZBICAyMjAyMQ0KICAgICg3MDMpIDM3OC0yNDQ0 IC0gKFRFQyBJSSkNCjIuIEhhbHRlYw0KMy4gRGlnaXRhbCBGdWVsIEluamVjdGlvbiAoREZJKSwg Mzc3MzIgSGlsbHMgVGVjaCBEcml2ZSwgRmFybWluZ3RvbiBIaWxscywgTUkgIDQ4MDI0DQogICAg TWFrZXMgc3lzdGVtIHNvbGQgYnkgTXIuIEdhc2tldCBhcyB0aGUgQWNjZWwgc3lzdGVtDQo0LiBF bXRlY2ggKEF1c3RyYWxpYSkNCjUuIE5PUy9FRkkgVGVjaA0KNi4gRWRlbGJyb2NrDQo3LiBIb2xs ZXksIDExOTU1IEUuIE5pbmUgTWlsZSBSZC4sIFdhcnJlbiwgTUkgIDQ4MDg5LTIwMDMNCjguIE1y LiBHYXNrZXQsIDg3MDAgQnJvb2twYXJrIFJkLiwgQ2xldmVsYW5kLCBPSCAgNDQxMjkNCiAgICAo MjE2KSAzOTgtODMwMCBDb250YWN0OiBNYXJrIEhhbWVsIHg0ODggKEFjY2VsL0RGSSkNCjkuIE1p Y3JvdGVjaCAoQXVzdHJhbGlhKQ0KDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIFRFQyBJSSAgICBIYWx0ZWMgICAgREZJL0FjY2VsICAgSG9sbGV5ICAgICAgICBF ZGVsYnJvY2sNCkNvc3Qgdy9zZW5zb3JzICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgMSwyMDAgICAgICAx LDUwMCAgICAgICAxLDMwMCAgICAgICAgIDYwMC0xMDAwDQpTb2Z0d2FyZSBjb3N0ICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDIwMC01MDAgICAgICAgaW5jICAgICAgICAgIGluYw0KUHJvZy4gb2ZmbGlu ZSAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB5ZXMgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg bm8NCk1hcCBmdWVsICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzICAgICAgICAg eWVzICAgICAgICAgIHllcyAgICAgICAgICAgIG5vDQpJbmouIGRyaXZlcnMgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNCAgICAgICAgICAgICA4ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDQNClNlcS4gaW5q LiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIGF2YWlsICAgICAgICBubyAgICAgICAg ICBhdmFpbA0KSWRsZSBjb250cm9sICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIElBQyAgICAg ICAgIG5vICAgICAgICAgICBJQUMNCkRhdGEgTG9nZ2luZyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IGF2YWlsICAgICAgIHllcyAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzDQojIGZ1ZWwgbWFwcyBieSBSUE0gICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgIDggICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxNg0KUHJvZy4gcG9pbnRzIGVh LiBSUE0gICAgICAgICAgICAgICA4ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA4DQpUb3Rh bCBwcm9nLiBwb2ludHMgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgNjQgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAyNTYNCldhcm0tdXAgTWFwICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzICAgICAgICAg eWVzICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzDQpTcGVlZCBEZW5zaXR5ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg IHllcyAgICAgICAgIHllcyAgICAgICAgICAgIHllcw0KTWFzcyBhaXIgZmxvdyAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICBhdmFpbCAgICAgICAgIG5vICAgICAgICAgICAgbm8NCkVHTyAtIENsb3Nl ZCBsb29wICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB5ZXMgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB5ZXMN Cklnbml0aW9uIGNvbnRyb2wgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzDQpJZ24uIGFtcCAoSUUgTVNEKSBuZWVkZWQgICAgICBubyAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzDQpJZ24gTWFwIHBvaW50cyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIDY0ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAxMjgNCkRldG9uYXRpb24gc2Vuc29yICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHllcyAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgeWVzIA0K - --=====================_820229592==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) - --=====================_820229592==_-- ------------------------------ From: Merlin Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? >Most MAF sensors I've seen output 0 to 5 volts as a function of >air-flow. You could just tack some electronics in the output line >that divided the output signal down so say 5v from the MAF get's >transmitted to the ECO as 4.0v for example. i.e stick a divider on >the input signal to the ECU. This would increase the amount of air >the MAF could flow before the ECU pulled the plug. >From what I have seen even if you lower the voltage on a MAF you still are restricted by its physical diameter, porting can help to a point depending on the style of MAF. If you lower the voltage that the MAF tells the ECU, then the ECU is not going to compensate with enough fuel, and you may run lean or detonate. The ECU has to be told about the reduction of voltage to match the increase of air flow that is possible. >>To compensate for the lean >>condition(s) that would result I would install larger injectors. I >>think a larger injector would provide more fuel at a given pulse width >>thereby compensating for the extra airflow. If you install bigger injectors that dont match the response time of the OE injectors or if you go too big and the injectors are too slow then you can run into mixtures problems. The ECU needs to know the properties of the bigger injectors. >You could save on the new injectors and just jack up the fuel rail >pressure to create the extra flow for a given p/w. That can work too. >Closed loop idle and closed loop running is where I'd see it all >falling down. The adaptive values learnt may be so large that they >could hit the max/min adaptive value clips and so cause the ECU to >believe that the HEGO(s) had failed. HEGO? What does that stand for? ------------------------------ From: Merlin Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 19:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? >I would like to enter a secondary air source down stream from the MAS >so more air is entered into the system which will be unmetered. As I >see it the vaccum from the engine will pull from both air sources at >the same rate at any given r.p.m. To compensate for the lean >condition(s) that would result I would install larger injectors. I >think a larger injector would provide more fuel at a given pulse width >thereby compensating for the extra airflow. Now how bad would the pre >programed fuel curves handle this setup? I can see the ECU able to >compensate for a idle and minor fuel difficientsies by input from the >O2 sensor. This hack would also eliminate the fuel cut that is >experienced by turbo charged vehicles when the MAS detects too much air >entering the system. Matching the injectors to the air flow would be >the next problem. By adding air after the MAS (is that a speed density system or a mass system?) I would assume you would use the same diameter/flow intake as the MAF, thus you might effectively halve the reading the reading the MAS sends....running lean. It might be far easier just to increase the size of the sensor by using a Hitachi type MAF (if your car is mass based) from a Mustang, Mustang Cobra, Thunderbird, etc. That should flow enough air for over 300hp, then just have someone or yourself redo the tables to take in account for a lower voltage reading. Your going to run into problems by "leaking" air into the system after the sensor knows about it, maybe you can cut off the extra air flow by putting some sort of door on it...like a secondary throttle body. Hondas have problems with idle and low speed driveability when they have extra air that the speed density ecu doesnt know about. ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:57:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? >>I would like to enter a secondary air source down stream from the MAS >>so more air is entered into the system which will be unmetered. As I >>see it the vaccum from the engine will pull from both air sources at >>the same rate at any given r.p.m. > >Most MAF sensors I've seen output 0 to 5 volts as a function of >air-flow. You could just tack some electronics in the output line >that divided the output signal down so say 5v from the MAF get's >transmitted to the ECO as 4.0v for example. i.e stick a divider on >the input signal to the ECU. This would increase the amount of air >the MAF could flow before the ECU pulled the plug. Repeat after me .. I will NOT hack the I will NOT add any "unmetered air" I WILL recalibrate the system to an MAF with higher capacity and larger injectors ... Yes, it's a lot of work, and after a few YEARS, I finally figured out how to do it with Bosch Motronic systems .. but once you do it RIGHT, you'll never do it any other way! Jim PS: If anyone is trying to do this on a Motronic System .. let me know as I can probably help you do it ... I'm adapting EVERY darn air-volume (flapper) BMW and Porsche to nice mass-air sensors :) ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 22:57:45 -0700 Subject: re: User Friendly Interface At 15:06 12/28/95 -0800, you wrote: >Developing a good GUI interface that becomes widely used (bug free) and that >is public domain will be an incredible asset to the DIY EFI world. This is >key. Public Domain is the part that I'm not sure of ... I am more than willing to allow the non-profit use (on non Bosch/Siemens ECUs) for anyone who is game to build up the config tables to make it work for "Box X, Y, or Z... I figure it will be more along the "gnu" concept, as the main thrust of my work which is the Bosch/Siemens aftermarket is most certainly a "make me some money" endeavor now ... Jim ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 23:19:21 -0700 Subject: User Friendly Programming Interface Guys, I thought I would let you know what it will and will not do, as designed ... First off, it is Windows GUI and if I want to I can add a custom control to do nice nifty 3D graph editing ... BUT .. having actually TRIED to edit a Graph in 3D, I have currently set it up to edit the data in a "flat" state as a checkerboard of "real world" values ... If there is enough clamor ... I guess I can go buy a nifty 3D control if everyone is that hot on the function .. Secondly .. the system is designed to edit binary images (of EPROMS and/or EEPROMS) and will be interfaced to a brand (or two) of EPROM EMULATOR to allow tuning a car while it is running If someone knows of a resonable priced emulator that has windows DLL's or drivers and can tie into MS Visual Basic (4.0) let me know, and I'll add support for that device!! If there is a serial link to the EFI332, we can probably tie in some support for that too, since VB 4.0 has a nice serial link custom control built in .... Lastly .. while the interface is TABLE DRIVEN, the internal logic for MAP "styles" other than standard BOSCH 2 and 3D maps is not their .. if you have a map type you know of, and you wish to have it supported ... send me some technical data .. Jim ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #17 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".