DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 30 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 018 In this issue: re: User Friendly Interface RE: User Friendly Interface Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? re: DIY_EFI Vendor List 555 based FI system Re: General question Re: 555 based FI system Re: General question [none] RE: Hack thought for MAS system??? RE: Undeliverable Message Re: General question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derrick Early Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 6:48:44 "EST Subject: re: User Friendly Interface > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) > > Jim Hi Jim, Glad to see a GUI is in the works. Please keep us posted on the progress. Yours, - -- Derrick Early early@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:10:23 -0600 Subject: RE: User Friendly Interface If it's feasible I'd also be interested in testing your software on my = DFI box. The software (particularly the datalogging) leaves a bit to be = desired! - ---------- >From: Orin B. Harding[SMTP:orin@xxx.net] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 1995 8:13 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: re: User Friendly Interface > If not, I'll be more than willing to allow the use of the GUI package > I'm developing for the Bosch World ... I designed it to be a = COMPLETELY > OPEN system (work for ANY type of box) which is why it has taken FIVE > times longer to code than I had anticipated ... > > You'd have to develop your own config tables to make it run for YOUR = app, > but the user interface is there (almost ;) Jim...I'll take you up on your offer!!!! I now have an Electromotive = TEC II and I would love to beta test your software with it..Let me know = if you have any interest in this... Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:22:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? The basic principle behind the proposal to leak air past the MAS is ok for fuelling. As Jim rightly says, you are going to have to do a lot of development to get it to work correctly. However, you are going to run into another problem which you haven't considered. The computer uses the MAS signal to generate an ignition timing curve. If you bypass the MAS then the computer will "think" that you are running a very light throttle opening. This will advance the ignition. As you will be running more boost, this will lead to detonation and the knock sensor will heavily retard the ignition. The car will not run nicely and you will go nuts trying to figure out what it could be:) So, you have 3 choices 1) Make a very small modification, so as not to affect the timing greatly, and see if you can tell the difference! 2) Take into consideration the timing, and fit another timing computer 3) Forget it. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 9:18:15 CST Subject: re: DIY_EFI Vendor List orin@xxx. Harding) Wrote: | | Yesterday I posted this list but failed to convert it to a .txt file from the | .doc file. Here it is again, as a txt file, and appologies to all for the mess | I sent yesterday.. | | | | | | ------------------------------------------------------------ | Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC | ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) | | ------------------------------------------------------------ | I was going to add this file to the efi_ref list, but I couldn't read it. If someone else got a good copy, with the columns lined up properly, could you please forward it to me? ps I did look at it in a fixed pitch font... thanks - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:11:59 -0700 Subject: 555 based FI system Sorry I can't include the previous post of this thread; I deleted it. The 555 Based FI system sounds good, but did someone mention that the output of a MAF sensor is not linear? Or is the specific one mentioned in this thread linear? Or is that what the pot on the 555 is for; driver compensation for this non-linear effect (neral network based FI :=) ? If it could work, sounds like a _great_ way to get _something_ to work, while adding in more smarts as you go. I guess I should start looking for a throttle body and MAF to fit my 302 ford... - -Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 11:45:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: General question Tom writes: >On a MGB witha 5 port head, biggest problem with fuel injection >is timing the injection cycle. Since the intake ports a siamesed >the injector needs to be on ONLY during the time when the intake >valve is opened... the sysem would have to be a sequential mode, >preferably timed to the closing of the intake valve. To have the >injector big enough for WOT throttle may result in a poor idle. Actually the injectors could be fires is a batch sceme twice a revolution and still maintain a even fuel distribution. Firing on the open valve is a contriversial subject. Some research says that firing on the open valve does not give a good burn since the droplets from the injector are too large. It is believed that injecting on the closed valve will allow some of the heat of the valve to be used to evaporating the fuel, ( liquid gas does not burn, only the vapor. thus the catoletic converter.) It is also believed that the high velocety air present when opening the valve will create better atomization then the injector. By the way, I am going to turbo and fuel inject my neighbors mg sometime in the future. David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 13:42:03 -0500 Subject: Re: 555 based FI system At 09:11 AM 12/29/95 -0700, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: The 555 Based FI system sounds good, but did someone mention that >the output of a MAF sensor is not linear? The Karman (how do you spell that?) Vortex system used in the Mitsubishis is very linear. I tried to find a limit on it by driving around with it stuck out of the window and I met no limit (broke a few speed limits though) Or is that what the pot on the 555 is for; No, the pot is to tune the base system to the injectors and engine and get everything roughly correct. later on we can use other things rto get it spot on, but for now we need a rough adjustment, eg for starting a cold engine. >If it could work, sounds like a _great_ way to get _something_ to work, while >adding in more smarts as you go. Exactly! > I guess I should start looking for a throttle body and MAF to fit my 302 >ford... Throttle body yes, but use the Mitsubishi MAF because it gives a pulse train and that is what we need for this project. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: walter@xxx.com (thomas walter x5955) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 13:24:22 CST Subject: Re: General question > From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) >Tom writes: >>On a MGB witha 5 port... > Actually the injectors could be fires is a batch sceme twice a revolution > and still maintain a even fuel distribution. Firing on the open valve is a > contriversial subject. Agreed with all the good stuff. Problem with that siamese ported MGB head is if you batch inject the fuel, that 1 and 2 will get different charges of air/fuel. Firing order is 1 3 4 2 (standard 4 cylinder). With cylinders 1 & 2 sharing the SAME intake port, (ditto 3 & 4), Of a given 720 degrees of crank rotation, cylinder 2 has access to 540 degrees intake charge, cylinder 1 has only 180 degrees. So if you batch ONCE per revoltion... you MIGHT get a double dose of fuel into cylinder 2, but ONLY air into cylinder 1! Yikes. Admitted this applies to the 5 port head, something of which most of the members on the list haven't seen. ;-) #1 INTAKE OPEN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx #2 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx INTAKE OPEN ^---------^----------^----------^----------^ 0 180 360 540 720 crank degrees -------------######---------------######---- worse case batch injection ---###-------###-------###---------###------- "twice per rev" Uh oh... [Please forgive the ASCII art, but this is a neat example of odd ball problem]. ###### = injector is on. Sigh, seems like the TBI IS the better solution for this engine (compared to Port Injection). So I will kindly eat my words that "port injection is preferable over TBI". ;-) > By the way, I am going to turbo and fuel inject my neighbors mg sometime in > the future. neat... curious as to the fuel delivery system. ;-) Cheers, Tom Walter Austin, TX. ------------------------------ From: JVP@xxx. Pearl) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 17:00:40 EST Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 16:48:09 -0600 Subject: RE: Hack thought for MAS system??? Since this is a Talon doesn't HKS make some fueling pieces for it? An = F-Con or something? I realize that fooling around on your own is fun and = challenging but if you pop the motor or have to put up with driveability = problems the fun quickly diminishes... - ---------- >From: Peter Wales[SMTP:pjwales@xxx.net] Sent: Friday, December 29, 1995 9:22 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu; = diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Hack thought for MAS system??? The basic principle behind the proposal to leak air past the MAS is ok = for fuelling. As Jim rightly says, you are going to have to do a lot of development to get it to work correctly. However, you are going to run into another problem which you haven't considered. The computer uses the MAS signal to generate an ignition = timing curve. If you bypass the MAS then the computer will "think" that you are running a very light throttle opening. This will advance the ignition. = As you will be running more boost, this will lead to detonation and the = knock sensor will heavily retard the ignition. The car will not run nicely and = you will go nuts trying to figure out what it could be:) So, you have 3 choices 1) Make a very small modification, so as not to affect the timing = greatly, and see if you can tell the difference!=20 2) Take into consideration the timing, and fit another timing computer 3) Forget it. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Date: Fri, 29 Dec 95 20:03:29 PST Subject: RE: Undeliverable Message Sorry this didn't include some of the text from the original post, but they (the IS guys) just changed editors on us, and I am not up to speed!. Anyway... This is about the post on the 3000HP, 214liter, 220BMEP industrial engine. Just one question: How in the bloody hell are you calculating BMEP? 3000HP is a lot of power, but out of 214liters, it is nothing to write home about. I get a little over 15HP/liter. Ain't now way that works out to 220BMEP. Did you mean to say 21.4liters? Just wanting to clear this up. Clint ------------------------------ From: fcmefi@xxx.net (Fred Miranda) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:21:28 GMT Subject: Re: General question >> From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) > >>Tom writes: >>>On a MGB witha 5 port... > >> Actually the injectors could be fires is a batch sceme twice a revolution >> and still maintain a even fuel distribution. Firing on the open valve is a >> contriversial subject. > >Agreed with all the good stuff. > >Problem with that siamese ported MGB head is if you batch inject >the fuel, that 1 and 2 will get different charges of air/fuel. > >Firing order is 1 3 4 2 (standard 4 cylinder). > >With cylinders 1 & 2 sharing the SAME intake port, (ditto 3 & 4), >Of a given 720 degrees of crank rotation, cylinder 2 has access >to 540 degrees intake charge, cylinder 1 has only 180 degrees. > >So if you batch ONCE per revoltion... you MIGHT get a double >dose of fuel into cylinder 2, but ONLY air into cylinder 1! >Yikes. > >Admitted this applies to the 5 port head, something of which most >of the members on the list haven't seen. ;-) > >#1 INTAKE OPEN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >#2 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx INTAKE OPEN > > ^---------^----------^----------^----------^ > 0 180 360 540 720 crank degrees > > -------------######---------------######---- worse case > batch injection > > ---###-------###-------###---------###------- "twice per rev" > Uh oh... > >[Please forgive the ASCII art, but this is a neat example >of odd ball problem]. ###### = injector is on. > > >Sigh, seems like the TBI IS the better solution for this >engine (compared to Port Injection). So I will kindly eat >my words that "port injection is preferable over TBI". ;-) > forget the batch fire and TBI and go with sequential Fred ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #18 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".