DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 31 December 1995 Volume 00 : Number 019 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Vendor List Re: General question User Friendly Programming Interface Re: User Friendly Programming Interface Seeking opinions on an idea... Re: 555 based FI system Re: User Friendly Programming Interface Re: Seeking opinions on an idea... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 00:18:49 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Vendor List >Yesterday I posted this list but failed to convert it to a .txt file from the .doc file. Here it is again, as a txt file, and appologies to all for the mess I sent yesterday.. > > > > >After Market EFI Systems > >1. Electromotive, Inc., 14004-J Willard Road, Chantilly, VA 22021 > (703) 378-2444 - (TEC II) >2. Haltec >3. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI), 37732 Hills Tech Drive, Farmington Hills, MI 48024 > Makes system sold by Mr. Gasket as the Accel system >4. Emtech (Australia) >5. NOS/EFI Tech >6. Edelbrock >7. Holley, 11955 E. Nine Mile Rd., Warren, MI 48089-2003 >8. Mr. Gasket, 8700 Brookpark Rd., Cleveland, OH 44129 > (216) 398-8300 Contact: Mark Hamel x488 (Accel/DFI) >9. Microtech (Australia) > > TEC II Haltec DFI/Accel Holley Edelbrock >Cost w/sensors 1,200 1,500 1,300 600-1000 >Software cost 200-500 inc inc >Prog. offline yes no >Map fuel yes yes yes no >Inj. drivers 4 8 4 >Seq. inj. avail no avail >Idle control IAC no IAC >Data Logging avail yes yes ># fuel maps by RPM 8 16 >Prog. points ea. RPM 8 8 >Total prog. points 64 256 >Warm-up Map yes yes yes >Speed Density yes yes yes >Mass air flow avail no no >EGO - Closed loop yes yes >Ignition control yes yes >Ign. amp (IE MSD) needed no yes >Ign Map points 64 128 >Detonation sensor yes yes Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC >('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster - '95 3000GT, BRG of course!) > A correction to your list. Haltec is actually Haltech. Also Emtech (Australian owned) is the US arm of Haltech. Haltech is an Australian invention. The story goes: In Australia...... Invent Engineering Pty Ltd. (Patent holders). trading as EFI Technology (in Australia). (This has NOTHING to do with EFI Techology in LA except Graham Western thought it was a good name !!) Haltech was always a brand name not a company name although phone may have been answered "Haltech" in the USA for marketing reasons. Recently trading name in Australia changed to Haltech only for marketing reasons however no actual change to the company. EFI (Haltech) are in Sydney Australia. Phone (02)525 2400 Fax (02)525 2991 (International 61 2 525 2991 ) Address: Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia regards to all, Mark Boxsell. ------------------------------ From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 00:19:26 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: General question To all, could someone help me find the fax and phone number for a magazine I used to get years ago. It was called the "Automotive Electronics Journal" and had great information on automotive/engine management electronics. I'm not sure if it is still published. The old address I have is: PO Box 3011, Southeastern,PA 19398-3011 USA. regards, Mark Boxsell. ------------------------------ From: digitech@xxx.nl Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 13:13:56 +0100 Subject: User Friendly Programming Interface Guys, I thought I would let you know what it will and will not do, as designed ... First off, it is Windows GUI and if I want to I can add a custom control to do nice nifty 3D graph editing ... BUT .. having actually TRIED to edit a Graph in 3D, I have currently set it up to edit the data in a "flat" state as a checkerboard of "real world" values ... If there is enough clamor ... I guess I can go buy a nifty 3D control if everyone is that hot on the function .. Secondly .. the system is designed to edit binary images (of EPROMS and/or EEPROMS) and will be interfaced to a brand (or two) of EPROM EMULATOR to allow tuning a car while it is running If someone knows of a resonable priced emulator that has windows DLL's or drivers and can tie into MS Visual Basic (4.0) let me know, and I'll add support for that device!! If there is a serial link to the EFI332, we can probably tie in some support for that too, since VB 4.0 has a nice serial link custom control built in .... Lastly .. while the interface is TABLE DRIVEN, the internal logic for MAP "styles" other than standard BOSCH 2 and 3D maps is not their .. if you have a map type you know of, and you wish to have it supported ... send me some technical data .. Jim dear jim well i,m just new on the project and you wanted to now about some stand alone emulators well here is a device that can do just thatit,s called the dataman s4 and you can test the e-proms,s files before burning them in it,s got an apdapter cable that you can plug in tho the efi box turn the engine off alter them startagain to test it i heard about this device from a friend off mine who works at the delfi corp. (gm france) they use this device for testing the engine,s to the limit... but the sad part is that he wont give me some info on algorithims so i will have less work one finding out to get some more hp out off my engine well here is the addres to get some info about this device... internet addres baier@xxx.com bbs holland (0)10-4008130 the device is dataman s4 personal eprom programmer it,s price is about 1200 us it,s stand alone and you can hookit to the computer whith a rs232 port.. well i,m working only on volkswagen,s type,s gti..vr6..g60.. for the g60 i have allready a tuned chip that will increase about 20% which is much but this is tested.. and proven!! you need to alter some other things to to get some more power out your g-device ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:00:53 -0500 Subject: Re: User Friendly Programming Interface > >dear jim well i,m just new on the project >and you wanted to now about some stand alone emulators well here is a device >that can do just thatit,s called the dataman s4 >and you can test the e-proms, The dataman is an ENGLISH product (yay) They are available in the US from Dataman in Orlando. I have the address at the office if you need it. We use them here and in the UK and they are great. The price is about $600 There are problems with this type of system however. The transfer rate is very slow so the software we use only changes one byte at a time. Initially it takes about 1 minute to download the program into the vehicles computer. Then byte changes are as fast as you can hit the keys. You put the cursor on the byte to change, hit the + or - key and as you change it it sends the new value to the car's ECU. This way you can do programming in real time. We have parts and software which allow the new data to be used by the engine without causing a mammouth cough as the data is changed, and of course checksum correction is automatic. The problem is knowing which bytes are being accessed by the car ECU so we feed back from the dataman the addresses which are being accessed by the ECU and use these to generate a cursor on the screen. Then you know which part of the map is being accessed. It may be better to use a full emulator and a card in the PC so as to be abe to do a full fast data dump. Again, I have details of systems at the office but the problem here is you need an expansion docking bay for the PC and they don't run on 12v. So you need an inverter. etc etc etc I am glad I solved all of these problems years ago. Good luck Jim Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: ShempMoDin@xxx.com Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 18:19:04 -0500 Subject: Seeking opinions on an idea... Hi all, I got an idea that I'd like to get some opinions on before I waste some more of my precious few brain cells on it. I'm considering installing EFI into a 1962 Alfa Romeo Spider, primarily for reliability and a mild boost in performance at higher rpm. Currently, the car has a single tiny downdraft Solex carb (ugh). My idea is to hack a simple EFI using some components of the Alfa Spica mechanical fuel injection. For those unfamiliar with the system, it was adapted for gasoline use from a diesel injection system, with a crank driven pump to feed mechanical injectors at about 300psi. It used a number of mechanical linkages as inputs to determine the stroke length of the pistons in the FI pump, thus determing the amount of fuel delivered via the injectors. It operates in open loop mode (obviously) with inputs for throttle postion, engine rpm, and engine temp. In the 62, though, under hood space is pretty tight. I would just adapt a later Alfa Bosch system, but I seriously doubt my ability to squeeze the MAF and related ductwork under the hood. The Spica injection manifold is a nice piece, four throttle plates for four intake runners, each feeding a separate cylinder. The injection pump, though, is too large and has a reputation for unreliability without meticulous maintenance. Thus, my idea. I'd use the Spica manifold, replace the mechanical injectors with EFI injectors, tack on a throttle position sensor, a temperature sensor, and a lead off the tach into some kind of simple box running in open loop mode. In your opinions, is this feasable. If so, any ideas as to difficulty? Any suggestions for improvements? - Paul Witek ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:55:14 -0700 Subject: Re: 555 based FI system At 13:42 12/29/95 -0500, Peter wrote: >The Karman (how do you spell that?) Vortex system used in the Mitsubishis is >very linear. I tried to find a limit on it by driving around with it stuck >out of the window and I met no limit (broke a few speed limits though) Peter, Next time you plan one of those adventures, let me know ... We could make a cool sum with a videotape sent to one of those "Funny Home Video" shows!! Happy New Year! Jim Conforti ------------------------------ From: sandy ganz Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 02:13:09 -0500 Subject: Re: User Friendly Programming Interface I have a dataman S4 and it is a great tool! The only drawback is that it can't do programming on GAL's, PAL's and those family of devices. Another problem that may make it less usefull is that it can only emulate a single 8 bit ROM. But for the most part it is a great product! I paid $795 USD about 1 year ago with 1meg of ram, today it is the same price, but comes with 4meg. Great Product! Also related back to the 3D Charts and editing, I have just got some info on a cross platform tool kit that has exactly what you need for doing fuel maps. I have not look at the pricing, but hopefully it is not too bad. If you want some info let me know and I'll forward it. At 01:13 PM 12/30/95 +0100, you wrote: >Guys, > >I thought I would let you know what it will and will not do, as designed ... > >First off, it is Windows GUI and if I want to I can add a custom control to >do nice >nifty 3D graph editing ... BUT .. having actually TRIED to edit a Graph in >3D, I have >currently set it up to edit the data in a "flat" state as a checkerboard of >"real world" >values ... If there is enough clamor ... I guess I can go buy a nifty 3D >control if everyone >is that hot on the function .. > >Secondly .. the system is designed to edit binary images (of EPROMS and/or >EEPROMS) and will >be interfaced to a brand (or two) of EPROM EMULATOR to allow tuning a car >while it is running >If someone knows of a resonable priced emulator that has windows DLL's or >drivers and can >tie into MS Visual Basic (4.0) let me know, and I'll add support for that >device!! > >If there is a serial link to the EFI332, we can probably tie in some support >for that too, since >VB 4.0 has a nice serial link custom control built in .... > >Lastly .. while the interface is TABLE DRIVEN, the internal logic for MAP >"styles" other than >standard BOSCH 2 and 3D maps is not their .. if you have a map type you know >of, and you wish >to have it supported ... send me some technical data .. > >Jim > >dear jim well i,m just new on the project >and you wanted to now about some stand alone emulators well here is a device >that can do just thatit,s called the dataman s4 >and you can test the e-proms,s files before burning them in >it,s got an apdapter cable that you can plug in tho the efi box >turn the engine off alter them startagain to test it >i heard about this device from a friend off mine who works at the delfi corp. >(gm france) they use this device for testing the engine,s to the limit... >but the sad part is that he wont give me some info on algorithims >so i will have less work one finding out to get some more hp out off my engine >well here is the addres to get some info about this device... >internet addres baier@xxx.com bbs holland (0)10-4008130 the device is >dataman s4 personal eprom programmer >it,s price is about 1200 us it,s stand alone and you can hookit to the >computer whith a rs232 port.. >well i,m working only on volkswagen,s type,s gti..vr6..g60.. >for the g60 i have allready a tuned chip that will increase about 20% >which is much but this is tested.. and proven!! >you need to alter some other things to to get some more power out your g-device > > ************************************** Name: sandy ganz E-mail: sandyg@xxx.com (sandy ganz) * __ \ / / ( / \/ \/ / __) / /\ * Machine: Bullwinkle ************************************** ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 00:15:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Seeking opinions on an idea... At 18:19 12/30/95 -0500, you wrote: >Thus, my idea. I'd use the Spica manifold, replace the mechanical injectors >with EFI injectors, tack on a throttle position sensor, a temperature sensor, >and a lead off the tach into some kind of simple box running in open loop >mode. In your opinions, is this feasable. If so, any ideas as to >difficulty? Any suggestions for improvements? Called the Bosch Alpha-N system .... :) Used for racing, where Alpha is the throttle Angle, and N is the RPM ... Not really good for street use (emissions, etc) ... but hey, give it a shot ... For a bit of adaptability, add a Baro (pressure) sensor and one for air temp .. if you keep the engine system (from air filter to exhaust) constant, you can develop a system that works like a speed density... Use delta Throttle Angle over time to do accel enrichment .. I've been working on adapting a few BMW Motorsport cars (M3,5,6) to this system for HIGHLY specialized (true wheel-2-wheel racing) apps Jim Conforti ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V0 #19 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".