DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 13 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 009 In this issue: O2 Sensor type? RE: RISC microcontrolers for efi RE: RISC microcontrolers for efi Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system RE: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Re: MAP sensor calibration Honda LAF sensor... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: me Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:00:55 +1100 (EST) Subject: O2 Sensor type? I have aquired an O2 sensor from a manufacturer's test bench and cannot source any data on it . I would appreciate any-one pointing me in the right direction as to the type , manufacturer , or specs. on this unit . I wish to use it as an A/F meter so I need reliable information . The unit is a six wire device with csOoo JAPAN on the body and the numbers 1830 1183 on the hexagon . Thanking You , Philip Barrie ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 14:07:22 EST Subject: RE: RISC microcontrolers for efi I have it from a reliable source that Motorola has already squeezed out Intel as the ucontroller supplier for their next (i.e. real soon now) line of PCM's, and that they do use the PowerPC core. This information is two years old. I'm slightly suprised you don't know that already, Clint (ccorbin@xxx. What group do you work for? Ed Lansinger GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar & Aurora) Software & Calibration Group ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 15:25:20 EST Subject: RE: RISC microcontrolers for efi On Fri, 12 Jan 96 I wrote: >I have it from a reliable source that Motorola has already >squeezed out Intel as the ucontroller supplier for their next >(i.e. real soon now) line of PCM's, and that they do use >the PowerPC core. This information is two years old. I'm slightly >suprised you don't know that already, Clint (ccorbin@xxx. >What group do you work for? > >Ed Lansinger >GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar & Aurora) Software & Calibration Group > Sorry - overzealous editing on my part. I was referring to Ford's next PCM. Neither GM nor Chrysler has used Intel microcontrollers for their PCM's in a while, if ever. Ed Lansinger ------------------------------ From: Anthony Edward Luistro Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:05:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system I am of dire need of help! I am merely a beginner on efi systems. However, I need to design a fuel injection system for a 4-cylinder Yamaha motorcycle engine to power a small formula car. Can anybody give me some advice on WHERE to begin on this project? Purchasing a aftermarket efi system is possible, but there are enough funds to do this (therefore, it is not really an option). Would it be cheaper to make one yourself? If so, where should I look to get more details and ideas. Can someone give me a general direction of how to make a simple 4 injector efi system (nothing too fancy)? All your help will be greatly appreciated! Anthony Luistro ------------------------------ From: Ed Lansinger Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 17:20:05 EST Subject: RE: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Anthony Luistro wrote: >I am of dire need of help! > >I am merely a beginner on efi systems. However, I need to design a fuel >injection system for a 4-cylinder Yamaha motorcycle engine to power a >small formula car. Formula SAE, right? Along with many other sources of info you can find through this list, have you read my articles in Circuit Cellar INK on doing just that? >Purchasing a aftermarket efi system is possible, but there are enough funds >to do this (therefore, it is not really an option). Would it be cheaper to >make one yourself? NO! (Well, OK, probably not.) But it isn't infinitely more expensive, especially if you have help. If this is Formula SAE, your _production_ cost *will* be lower for the purpose of the Cost Analysis. >Can anybody give me some advice on WHERE to begin on this project? I can, but we probably needn't clutter the list with it. email me at lansie@xxx. I'd like to know how much time and money you have, how many people and their capabilities, and your performance goals. Ed Lansinger Rensselaer Formula SAE '92-'94 Rensselaer Formula Lightning '95- GM Powertrain Premium V (Northstar/Aurora) Software & Calibration Group ------------------------------ From: gt9803a@xxx.edu (Ennis Bragg) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:16:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Ed writes: > Anthony Luistro wrote: > >I am of dire need of help! > I can, but we probably needn't clutter the list with it. email > me at lansie@xxx. I'd like to know how much time and money you > have, how many people and their capabilities, and your performance > goals. Ed, I don't think it would be cluttering the list. I think we need to see some discussions like that. Anthony, I am in the middle of doing the same thing here at Georgia Tech. I took a class on the HC11 last quarter and have spent a solid 4 months or so on the project. (not counting the previous 3 years of learning about our Honda 600cc motor and Accel DFI system.) If you haven't gotten started at this point, I wouldn't expect to have anything for the 96 competition. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but the project you are about to begin will take you much much longer than you could ever imagine. I think a good place for you to start would be Ed's articles from Circuit Cellar and another set or articles written by Tim Drury (Ga Tech) for Performance Engineering magazine a couple of years ago. You can find Tim's articles at his home page at: http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe/ddis.html Tim designed an ignition system only but the design process he talks about in his article applies to designing a fuel injection system. Good Luck! Ennis - -- Ennis Bragg Team Leader Georgia Tech Motorsports gt9803a@xxx.edu http://www.cc.gatech.edu/people/home/gt9803a/ ------------------------------ From: Donald Whisnant Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:45:41 -0800 Subject: Re: MAP sensor calibration Instead of having to use charts to calibrate a MAP sensor -- charts that have been derived from some "standard, ideal condition MAP sensor" -- why not create your own chart for your own MAP sensor? That way it will be guaranteed to be accurate with your sensor ... [I derive this from the pressure transducers that we use at work to measure water level in a vat of paper stock -- inches of water level is much much more sensitive than inches of Hg!] ... Procedure: Create a manometer from a couple of clear pieces of acrylic tubing. And 2 clear acrylic 90's for the tubing... For example, to measure to 30" of Hg, one side needs to be about 17" and the other side needs to be about 34". Diameter of the tube doesn't matter except for cost (remember you must fill the tube with Hg!) ... Long Side- : : : : : -Short side : : :__: Make you a ruler scale to go behind the long side (or just buy a yard stick)... If you make your own scale, make the scale be 1/2"=1 measured inch, this will simplify your measurements -- in other words, for each inch displaced downward, you are displacing an inch on the other side upwards. So, 1 inch movement on one side is equivalent to 2 inches of pressure. Next, get a handheld vacuum pump (available at most hobby stores or mail orderable from places like Edmund Scientific). Get several feet of tygon tubing -- with proper diameters and adaptors to fit over the end of the MAP sensor, the end of the vacuum pump, and the end of the acrylic tubing. This tubing is available from most hardware stores. Then get enough mercury from your favorite chemistry/hobby supply store to fill the tube (the amount will depend on the diameter you choose -- but a 3/4" tube usually requires almost 1 quart of fluid) --- BE CAREFUL NOT TO SPILL THE MERCURY AS IT PRODUCES VERY TOXIC FUMES! Fill the manometer so that it is about an inch or so below the top of the SHORT SIDE. Set the inch scale behind the longer side so that the ZERO is at the top of the fluid on that side (with the numbers increasing going up -- indicating inches of vacuum) On the LONG SIDE of the manometer, make a Tee fitting of the three units (i.e. manometer, handheld vacuum pump, and MAP sensor)... BUT, leave the short side OPEN -- stoping up or blocking air flow into/out-of the short side will make your reading inaccruate.. MAP SENSOR----T----: : : Hand Vacuum__: : pump : : : : :__: ^___ scale is behind the long side With a 5 volt power supply (could be just a simple 9V battery and a 7805 regulator), apply power to the MAP sensor and connect a volt meter to the sensor's output. Write down the voltage returned by the sensor for 0 inches of vacuum. Then, pump the hand unit until 1" is indicated (don't forget that 1" of movement on 1 side really is 2 inches of vacuum). Record the reading from the sensor... And repeat in desired increments until the desired amount of vacuum is reached (or you run out of manometer)... Note: If the vacuum leaks down when you stop pumping, either your tygon tubing has a leak, you have a bad stop valve on your pump (or it isn't shut totally), or you have a bad MAP sensor. Also Note: Make sure that the manometer is level... When finished, pour your Hg back into its container (making sure not to spill it) and save it for next time. This technique works on almost any type of pressure transducer -- i.e. MAP sensors, BARO sensors, altimeters, etc. etc... To measure inches of water instead of inches of Hg, just use distilled water instead of Hg.... In fact, you can measure inches of Hg with water, but you will need a very long manometer (or you will have to make a special inclined manometer) to read it. -- I don't remember the conversion factor right off, but it seems like there is about 27.+ inches of water per 1 inch of Hg! You may also prefer to use glass tubing instead of acrylic tubing -- especially if you are good at glass bending... You can also buy ready made manometers from Dwyer and other instrumentation/calibration suppliers -- in fact, they may even sell Hg or an Hg substitute (i.e. some liquid with the same density as Hg)... To measure pressures instead of vacuums, just move everything from the long side to the short side and replace the vacuum pump with a squeeze bulb (like those used on blood pressure instruments -- available from most any medical supply house)... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Timothy Coste Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 00:59:37 -0500 Subject: Honda LAF sensor... Hi all, Before I get to my comment/question, I thought I'd give a little background of myself, as this is the first time I've posted to the list. I'm current;y finishing up my Ph.D. research at Michigan Tehnological University (in the farthest north of the UP of MI). My research is on fuel injection systems...specifically, I've been developing and using a fiber-optic based sensor in the intake of a Ford 1.9l engine to measure port wall wetting and trying to correlate the film readings with engine out emissions, in cylinder pressure data, and the effects of changing fuel preparation (through injector design and phasing). (Long winded sentence...can you tell I'm working on my Ph.D.? :) ) As a mech. eng., some of the electrical playing discussed here is out of my league as far as practical applications, but the topics have been very interesting so far and hopefully I can learn more. Is there any good resources around for learning how to modify software in factory ECU's? On to the reason for this post. In the Dec. '95 Automotive Engineering (SAE monthly mag) there was an article on the Honda VTEC-E Civic. In it, it said that the man. x-mission cars would have a linear air fuel (LAF) sensor to handle the 22:1 ratio that the engine can operate at. It didn't say if it was also linear on the important end (rich), but if so, it should bode well for the price of LAF sensors to come down rapidly. I can't imagine Honda putting an $800-1000 LAF sensor in a Civic. Does anyone know anymore about these? I've seen a lot of articles on Hondas lean burn engines, but I don't remember any technical references to their A/F sensors. Hopefully the end result will be a $100 LAF you can pick up at a parts store! Thanks for listening, and I hope I can learn a lot and contribute at least a little to the list. Tim Coste tlcoste@xxx.edu ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #9 *************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".