DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 14 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 010 In this issue: Re: Honda LAF sensor... Re: O2 Sensor type? Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system MAP sensor calibration EFI system purchase Re: EFI system purchase MAP sensors Re: MAP sensor calibration See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 22:35:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Honda LAF sensor... > >Hi all, > > Before I get to my comment/question, I thought I'd give a little >background of myself, as this is the first time I've posted to the >list. I'm current;y finishing up my Ph.D. research at Michigan >Tehnological University (in the farthest north of the UP of MI). >My research is on fuel injection systems...specifically, I've >been developing and using a fiber-optic based sensor in the intake >of a Ford 1.9l engine to measure port wall wetting and trying to >correlate the film readings with engine out emissions, in cylinder >pressure data, and the effects of changing fuel preparation (through >injector design and phasing). (Long winded sentence...can you tell >I'm working on my Ph.D.? :) ) As a mech. eng., some of the >electrical playing discussed here is out of my league as far as >practical applications, but the topics have been very interesting >so far and hopefully I can learn more. Is there any good resources >around for learning how to modify software in factory ECU's? > > On to the reason for this post. In the Dec. '95 Automotive >Engineering (SAE monthly mag) there was an article on the Honda >VTEC-E Civic. In it, it said that the man. x-mission cars would >have a linear air fuel (LAF) sensor to handle the 22:1 ratio that >the engine can operate at. It didn't say if it was also linear >on the important end (rich), but if so, it should bode well for >the price of LAF sensors to come down rapidly. I can't imagine >Honda putting an $800-1000 LAF sensor in a Civic. Does anyone >know anymore about these? I've seen a lot of articles on Hondas >lean burn engines, but I don't remember any technical references >to their A/F sensors. Hopefully the end result will be a $100 >LAF you can pick up at a parts store! > > Thanks for listening, and I hope I can learn a lot and contribute >at least a little to the list. > > Tim Coste > tlcoste@xxx.edu > Tim, See my answer to Philip Barrie. I hope you are right! In my experience they are refered to as "wide range" sensors rather than "linear" sensors. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design ------------------------------ From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 22:35:30 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: O2 Sensor type? >I have aquired an O2 sensor from a manufacturer's test >bench and cannot source any data on it . I would appreciate >any-one pointing me in the right direction as to the type , >manufacturer , or specs. on this unit . I wish to use it as >an A/F meter so I need reliable information . The unit is >a six wire device with csOoo JAPAN on the body and the >numbers 1830 1183 on the hexagon . > >Thanking You , > >Philip Barrie > Philip, You lucky guy your have "scored" a wide range NTK UEGO sensor (it's worth about $950 Australian dollars (approx $700 US)). The only problem is you need the controller to run it. The device can read from 10 - 20 AFR and a similar unit (NTK say it is not the same but I have my doubts, I priced it as a spare part about 3 years ago it was $250 US) is used on the VTEC-E Honda Civic. The controller is about $350 Aust ($220 US) and is a small box designed for firewall mounting about the size of a cigarette packet and gives a nice 0 - 5 volt output. There is also an intelligent controller (ie. microcomputer controlled) but it is mega dollars. We all wonder how the factory guys map there cars so well don't we, well they do it with this device !!! It's sort of the holy grail in EFI at least it was 9 years ago when I first discovered it. If you have a close look at some Formula 1 engine photo's from the "Turbo era" have a look at the Honda exhaust pipes. How times change, now it's on a production car. "CS" is a joint venture between NGK and NTK in Japan. Who is NTK you ask ? NTK is the ceramic (industrial) division of NGK spark plugs. As I understand it Horiba have taken over the marketing in the USA (there are some cross patents or something?) so if you give them a call they should be able to help. You could give NTK USA a try too as the situation may have changed. Bosch have a similar product called the LSM11 (4 wire but still wide range). hope this helps, Mark Boxsell MRB Design Sydney Australia ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 09:04:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Cellar and another set or articles written by Tim Drury (Ga Tech) for > Performance Engineering magazine a couple of years ago. You can find Tim's > articles at his home page at: > > http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe/ddis.html > > Tim designed an ignition system only but the design process he talks about > in his article applies to designing a fuel injection system. > > Good Luck! > Unfortunantly, just like in the series, part 2 dosn't seem to exhist. I've gotten really excited about this series, but have not seen the input/output conditioning circuitry, nor any software. This is what is really of interest to me. Is Tim on the list? will the software ever be available? All in all, it's a good start; more than I have done! (My 6811 ignition controller failed to work when I hooked it up to the coils :-( - -Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:45:29 -0800 Subject: MAP sensor calibration >Instead of having to use charts to calibrate a MAP sensor -- charts that >have been derived from some "standard, ideal condition MAP sensor" -- why >not create your own chart for your own MAP sensor? That way it will be >guaranteed to be accurate with your sensor ... [I derive this from the >pressure transducers that we use at work to measure water level in a vat >of paper stock -- inches of water level is much more sensitive than >inches of Hg!] ... I think that comparison of data taken from “standard, ideal condition MAP sensor”s purchased in a Georgia salvage yard, will show the sensors are quite linear and consistent, even after traveling all the way to the salva ge yard. Also, the ECU doesn’t get data from calibration of individual sensors, it just lives with the sensors as installed. >Procedure: Create a manometer from a couple of clear pieces of acrylic tubing. >And 2 clear acrylic 90's for the tubing... >For example, to measure to 30" of Hg, one side needs to be about 17" and >the other side needs to be about 34". Diameter of the tube doesn't matter >except for cost (remember you must fill the tube with Hg!) ... Use water NOT Hg, for 13.54:1 better resolution, same accuracy and zero toxicity. A Hiese digital manometer was used to calibrate the five sensors. Can you visually resolve 0.001 inch Hg? The Heise digital pressure gage u sed to calibrate the sensors may have been much more accurate than the technician that used it. As I wrote with the sensor data, the units of measure are suspect. Eric Elliott ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:42:09 -0800 Subject: EFI system purchase Does anyone want to sell a port EFI system for a 350 CI SBC? Eric Elliott AR, USA 800.827.5038 501.251.3659 eric_e@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: toy4x4@xxx.com (Jack Alford) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 01:19:53 -0600 Subject: Re: EFI system purchase >Does anyone want to sell a port EFI system for a 350 CI SBC? Junkyards do ... I bought a TBI there for $50 ... - jack alford ==> toy4x4@xxx.com --> Decatur, AL ------------------------------ From: Corey Stup Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:25:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: MAP sensors I'll be making a run to the local import junk yard this week. Does anyone have any suggestions to which MAP sensors I should look for? This will be for use in my EFI/Ignition project for my 4 cylinder VW and Fiat. Models (car) and descriptions would be helpful, since we all know how things are quite screwy at the 'yard.... Thanks in advance! - -- Corey Stup - -- Louisville, KY ------------------------------ From: masmith Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 23:53 PST Subject: Re: MAP sensor calibration At 07:45 PM 1/12/96 -0800, you wrote: >Instead of having to use charts to calibrate a MAP sensor -- charts that >have been derived from some "standard, ideal condition MAP sensor" -- why >not create your own chart for your own MAP sensor? >... >... Then get enough mercury from your favorite chemistry/hobby supply store > ... >1 quart of fluid) --- BE CAREFUL NOT TO SPILL THE MERCURY AS IT PRODUCES >VERY TOXIC FUMES! > ... >Donald Whisnant >dewhisna@xxx.com > mercury vapor - the actual evaporated mercury, not an oxide or anything - is toxic as hell and the consequences are longterm..... any dense liquid could be used instead - the relevant factor of conversion is density relative to water. - the tubes will have to be longer.... for example motor oil - thick syrup - (anybody else got any ideas?) even if you have to build something 10 feet high with a step ladder, its still safer than slow poisoning. (alternatively - build it DOWN into a swimming pool for example. you might find it hard to buy a quart of mercury without half a dozen EPA forms, at least in the US anyway.. Matt Smith masmith089@xxx.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #10 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".