DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 19 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 015 In this issue: Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom Re: O2 Sensor type? RE: EFI with SPIF? Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Injectors and fuses Hi Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Re: Injectors and fuses Injector Data Needed Re: Injectors and fuses Digital Distributorless Ignition System RE: EFI with SPIF? Re: Injectors and fuses Opinions on idea ...... Re: EFI with SPIF? Cyberdyne A/F meter Re: Injectors and fuses ECUs circuit cellar magazine Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom C cellar mag - reply - in Oz See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 23:16:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom >Cosworth used a 6803???? > > > Why?? The 8061 in every for car is far, far supirior to the 6803. If >they intended to do any real-time interpolation, or run a multi-tasking >executive, they chose the wrong chip. I'm not saying you cant write a >multi-tasking executive on a small 8-bit micro (I have) but why wouldnt they >use the already-known-good ford eec-iv ?? > > -----Lou Faustini > > > Bloody hell Lou we are only trying to run the engine! We have no operating system, keyboard, graphics card, network(not usually), printer, hard disk, floppy disk, tape drive, SCSI card, modem, sound card, etc, etc. I can't believe you guy's argue about this stuff. Have you ever thought it might be CHEAPER. regards, Mark Boxsell. MRB Design ------------------------------ From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 23:16:10 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: O2 Sensor type? Robert Dingli, > >I think we may be talking about a different NGK controller here. Firstly, >the one I am using cost AUD$750 ex tax rather than the $350 that you quoted. >Secondly, the span for the controllers (of which there are three types) are >10:1 - 30:1 AFR for the normal unit (TC-6000), 14.5:1 - 52:1 AFR for the >TC-6000C and 10:1 - 14.5:1 for the TC-6000D. All controllers use the same >sensor. They used to be that price !!!! > >The TC-6000 which should give 3V at 14.57:1, 1.85 V at 10:1 and 3.45V at 22:1. >Given that our engine can run smoothly over lambda 4 (but ideally up to lambda >2) 22:1 is a bit rich for a lean limit. I used the UEGO it on racing engines mainly. This engine of yours sounds interesting. Whats your BMEP and hows your NOX? regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design Fax (02)629 4796 (International 61 2 6294796) ------------------------------ From: Derrick Early Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 7:19:59 "EST Subject: RE: EFI with SPIF? > Check out the new DFI Sequential box, I'm pretty sure it does this. = > There old boxes were some sort of batch fire but did do knock sensing - = > I have one of these on my Mustang.. Thank you for the reply Jim. I talked to the guys at Electromotive. They said that they can make their TEC-II do SPFI, but they asked why would you want to do that. They normally do a phased squirt of two injectors at a time for a 4 cyl engine. In other words the injectors are fired when its piston is at the top of its stroke. I asked if their knock control scheme retards all four cylinders, and they said yes. They haven't allowed for the control of the timing for each of the cylinders like Bosche does. He suggested that I shouldn't be tuning so close to knock anyways. Yours, - -- Derrick Early early@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 08:25:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses > If there was any real need for a fuse in the injector line, the > manufacturers would have put one there on production cars. Bold assumption. :) Tony - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: Bill Lewis Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:04:42 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses Remember one of Murphy's Laws is "A transistor protected by a fast acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first." If you expect the fuse to be of value, you'll have to design your output drivers carefully. In the case of bipolar, even if the maximum collector current isn't exceeded, maximum power dissipation could be. I've never seen a fuse blow in a car for any legitimate reason, only when I was fubling around with the battery connected. And a fuse adds a few more connections to go bad. Ever have any experiences with those crappy fuses the German auto makers loved. /Bill ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:16:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses At 08:43 PM 1/17/96 MDT, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: I would think that most auto >makers use some fuse in the circuit, whether it is replaceable >(read visible) or not is another issue. May be just a fusible >link in the wiring somewhere. Darrell, No auto manufacturer is going to bury a fusible link in the wiring anywhere which will totally disable the car and cannot be replaced! No fuses in the injector feeds. CPU maybe, but not injectors. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:34:58 -0500 Subject: Hi >Hello Everyone, > I'm new to the list and I've been lurking around for a few days >seeing what goes down here. I'm interested in cars and efi systems >seem to be the current trend. > > Manufacturers put a lot of effort into EFI systems, as do a number >of third part suppliers (Haltech, Motec, Injec, Wolf, etc). So I have >to ask why do people build them from scratch? > > - they work better = > - they're cheaper > or > - are they just a heck of a lot of fun > >-- = > _--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker > / \ | = > \_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin.walker@xxx.au > v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111 > Hi yourself! For mee (that is new on this list but old in the game) its your 2 last p= oints that suits, fun and cost. I have a losts of turbo-friends that also don'= t want too pay for their extra power and just surfs on my know-how and near kos= tfree inventions. Since my hobby car is a -64 i can laborate with every factor= =2E Its a way to keep up my know-how in termodynamics, elektrionics and programmin= g too. Maby a little crazy, Tommy Palm tommy.palm@xxx.se SWEDEN = ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:36:54 -0500 Subject: Opinions on idea ..... > >Hi All, > >I've been on this list a while and have learned a great deal of = >information about EFI systems. Thanks for all the knowledge. Any way I = = >have an idea that I want to bounce of you all. > >I want to build an EFI system for my project car. The car is a Mazda RX= =2D7 = >with the 12A turbo rotary engine. The original EFI system has gone the = = >great "tinkerer" in the sky, but I still have all the other components.= = >The original system used a flap-type air metering device. Anyway this i= s = >my idea. I was going to have the air-flow meter calibrated using a = >flow-bench or something similar to obtain Vout as a function of airflow= =2E = >Then using the air temp sensor I can convert this into mass flow. From = = >there it should be simple to compute the amount of fuel required for an= y = >flow into the engine. Any drawback to this sort of approach, or is ther= e = >a simpler way to do this. > >Any comments or criticisms will be appreciated.....I'm only new to this= = >sort of thing !!!!! > >Thankyou all for your help. > >Regards, > >Rob > > >Robert D Skala >Materials Research Group >Curtin University of Technology >GPO Box U1987 >Perth 6001 >WESTERN AUSTRALIA >Telephone: +61 9 351 2331 >Fax: +61 9 351 2377 >email: skala_rd@xxx.au > > >Hello! I'm also a small engine turbo-nutter and have so been for 14 years when = i soon foud out that all stock FI system did not have the fuel amount that i ne= eded. I needed aroud 100hp per cyl. I started to look for a flowmeter and calibrated 2 different flap-meters= =2E The biggest i found in Sweden was for Alfa 164 3,0. After some more years i = found that every flowmeter i looked at had a too big flow restriction and it d= oes not play well with turbos and response. Most standard turbos don' t like more than 0,07 bars underpress w/o leaking oil (=3Dlower maxpower= ). I did some very interesting resarch concerning a home made mass meter using th= e carman-vortex princip and used ultrasonic pickups and senders to detetec= t mass ( i skip the long tale here). After 2 more years i saw that everyone now= days took the speed/density way with a simple MAP-sensing and now i work with= that in my last home made EFI. The disadvantidge is extensive programming and= mapping everytime you build a new turbo engine (about every year for mee= ) otherwise its only advantages as i see. = So skip some years and trow away your flap-meter if you are interested t= o get some more power and respons out of your nice car, thats my advice (but i= have endless patiens and inventive glow!!)! Hope i did not hurt any feelings! Cheers, Tommy tommy.palm@xxx.se ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:36:15 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses Item Subject: Meddelandetext > > >> In the 2.5 ohm systems i have checked they don't take more than 1- >> 1.5amp/injector. Around 2 amp should bee a good choise since the most > > >A little judicious application of Ohm's Law will reveal that at >12V, a 2.5 ohm load will draw almost 5 Amps!. With 2,5 ohm systems i meant that the injectors have a resistance of 2,5 ohm. they are then connected to a resistor, a transistor and diod ( and some more electronics for overvolt protection). The peak current is checked with a 100 MHz oscilloscope and i have testrunned it with 1 amps transistors for days and days in bench w/o any problems. The injector gets rather hot in testbenchdriving. My own system uses a high peak open current and then a lower hold current than standard systems and don't need more than 0,6 amp fusing (slow fuses, fast peak currents goes mutch higher on my home made system). Actually since the serieresistor on stock systems i have looked at had around 6-8 ohms so the max current when shortcurcuiting shold not blow either the transistor or board on low ohm MPI systems (14.4-06/6=2.3 amps per injector). Short curcuiting all injectors seemes unlikely. I don't have any comments concerning high ohm systems. Considering that >the standard battery voltage is closer to 14V, the current draw >becomes even larger. Mind, you, the inductance of the injector >will self limit the current until the inductor "charges" up, the >above calculation would be worst case if the injector was on 100% >of the time. Most injector drivers are also current limited, but >this only protects the injector, not the driver circuit. > >The 1-1.5 A figure you quote is most likely the average current, >not the peak. Fuses would have to be rated to handle peak >currents, with a safety factor of about 25% added on for good >measure. I would use an 8-10 A, standard automotive fuse, I meant 2 amp per injector minimum so a 8-10 ohm for the whole system (if you have >=4 inj) might give ocillating voltagedrops over the fuse and holders soo check that its not between batterysupply and controllcircuits. As i wrote before a low ohm system should not need fusing inside. Any low amp fusing (>15 amp) should always preferably bee done inside the curcuitry. Thats a good answer wy its not done on the factory made systems. this >will protect the driver from catastrophic failure, but should >never blow under normal conditions. I would think that most auto >makers use some fuse in the circuit, whether it is replaceable >(read visible) or not is another issue. May be just a fusible >link in the wiring somewhere. > >regards >dn > > > Tommy > >-- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 > Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 > @ + > < > __/ "Ain't no substitute for clock speed or compression ratio" > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:50:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom At 03:49 AM 1/18/96 -0500, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: >Cosworth used a 6803???? > > > Why?? The 8061 in every for car is far, far supirior to the 6803. Lou, remember that Cosworth is an independant company, owned by Vickers I think. They went to Weber Marelli because they could make a system which worked and was available in small numbers. I would be surprised if there was anyone at Ford at that time who could design and program the EEC4 system. Don't forget this was done in England, not the US. The Weber Marelli system was new, and they wanted customers so they probably developed the system for peanuts. It went on the Aston Martin and the Maserati Bi Turbo and Lancia Integrale so it did work quite well. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:52:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses At 08:25 AM 1/18/96 -0500, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > >> If there was any real need for a fuse in the injector line, the >> manufacturers would have put one there on production cars. > >Bold assumption. :) I'm Boldly going again ;) Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:01:28 -0500 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... From >there it should be simple to compute the amount of fuel required for any >flow into the engine. Any drawback to this sort of approach, or is there >a simpler way to do this. Rob, This is a theoretical approach, and IMHO it won't work!!! There will be more variables to consider. Battery voltage, water temperature, humidity, etc etc. The problem is that although you may get within striking distance, you would be better off building something, generating the mapping system and then mapping it on a dyno, either chassis or engine. That way you actually generate the numbers the engine wants and not the theoretical ones which are only ballpark, and will need mapping in anyway. If you do not have access to a dyno, use an oxygen sensor, there is a thread running on them right now. Just drive around and tune it that way Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:10:08 +0500 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... "i soon foud out that all stock FI system did not have the fuel amount that i needed. I needed aroud 100hp per cyl" The Eagle Talon(and it's triplet brethren from Mitsubishi and Plymouth) which is sold in the US performs at 97.5-107.5 bhp/L(depending on which model year). They have been modified to produce in excess of 150 bhp/L on a surprisingly regular basis using the factory vortex-based flow meter. There is another internet digest devoted to these cars that is probably known to this group. If not, I'll write back with their address. Ed Hernandez ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:13:50 +0500 Subject: Re: Need LOTS OF HELP making efi system Tim Coste wrote: "I can't imagine Honda putting an $800-1000 LAF sensor in a Civic." On the other hand, no one could imagine VTEC technology in a Civic, either. I'v e benchmarked the competition to some degree and continue to be impressed with the amount of money that Honda put into the engines which go into their most ba sic cars. I wish I had budgets like that! I think that $800 is excessive even for Honda, but if that's a 'retail' pric e, OEMs can get them at perhaps a third of the cost. Now it becomes remotely po ssible for Honda. Tack on the fact that they must improve their CAFE as a perce ntage of their existing capability, and you start to understand that it takes m ore money to find 5% improvement on a 35mpg vehicle than it does a 20mpg barge. Selling at a smaller margin is better than not selling at all, and Honda's rep utation allows them the luxury of increasing the margin if needed. Ed Hernandez ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:51:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses > At 08:25 AM 1/18/96 -0500, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > > >> If there was any real need for a fuse in the injector line, the > >> manufacturers would have put one there on production cars. > > > >Bold assumption. :) > > I'm Boldly going again ;) > > Peter Wales > President Superchips Inc Florida > Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham > "Timing is everything" > I.M.H.O. (In My Humble Opinion), manufacturers are trying to save every cent they can, and don't expect to have many people 'mess' with their wiring. If someone does mess with the wiring (like a service tech), and if they short something out, it's their fault, and not the manufacturer's, :-) But for _MY_ F.I. system, I know I will be messinging w/ the wiring a lot, and if I short something out, it's my fault and it will cost me. So, I will put in lots of fuses (cheap insurance), cary spares, and be careful not to short anything out. I don't think there is much of a need for manufacturers to fuse the injectors, but I _do_ think there is a need for me to fuse my injectors. If there is a need for you to do it, well, that's up to you. Have Fun! - -Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:55:51 -0500 Subject: Injector Data Needed Does anyone have information on the injectors that were used by GM on the 1.9L, 2.0L, and the 2.3L or 2.5L "Iron Duke" 4's in the mid to late '80's. This was a throttle body injection system..Thanks in advance for any info you have rega rding #/hr, markings, etc.... Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster) ------------------------------ From: Markus Strobl Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:19:16 -0600 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses > At 08:25 AM 1/18/96 -0500, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: > > > >> If there was any real need for a fuse in the injector line, the > >> manufacturers would have put one there on production cars. > > > >Bold assumption. :) > > I'm Boldly going again ;) > > Peter Wales > President Superchips Inc Florida > Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham > "Timing is everything" > According to the service manual on my 96 Camaro, the PCM monitors the resistance of each fuel injector, and if the resistance drops too low, the driver is disabled, and a trouble code is set. Markus Strobl ------------------------------ From: tdrury@xxx.edu Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 15:43:10 EST Subject: Digital Distributorless Ignition System The Programmable, Digital Distributorless Ignition System is finished! Thank God. Anyhow, all of you had expressed interest in the system sometime in the past so I wanted to update you. The best way to get the articles is via my Web page at http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe. In the second article, I'm missing the two equations and the table, but I hope to have them in by the time you get this message. Also, more legible versions of the schematics will be made available on my FTP site (same address, userid: anonymous). The DOS version of the PC software will be place on the FTP site also. Please send me any comments and questions. I'm working on the 3-axis accelerometer toy now. Let me know if you're interested. It will have a 128x128 graphic LCD in a handheld device. The accelerometers are attached to an unsprung (hopefully close to the roll center) point on the car and a cable will plug into the unit. Should record about a half-hour of data - great for autocrossing. - -tim drury ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:00:14 -0600 Subject: RE: EFI with SPIF? - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAE5C6.703644C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is one company that makes an aftermarket Knock Sensor that claims = to retard the cylinders individually. It includes a meter showing the = amount of retard and an optional A/F meter as well. The Electromotive = computers look pretty good with VERY powerful software, however the = software is pretty ridiculously priced for the average car nut like = myself. A shop maybe, but not a tinkerer - too bad, if it weren't for = that I'd have one on my car now. They're local to me too and I'm told = they're good people. I can tell you a bit more about them if you're = interested.. While we're on the subject, anyone have any idea as to the best way to = make a "knock meter" similar to the MSD unit for a GM knock sensor ala = Buick GN? The GM GN sensor appears to be the same as my DFI sensor = including the little add-on processor that sits in the engine = compartment. Even something as simple as a tri-color LED to indicate = low, medium, and high knock would be fine. I'd like something other than = my laptop or the stutter my car makes to indicate when the sensor is = indicating knock. Perhaps even a way to disconnect it from the DFI and = just drive the LED(s) would be good...=20 Would the MSD unit possibly work in conjunction with mine maybe? it = doesn't appear to use the second processor.. Thanks! - ---------- >From: Derrick Early[SMTP:early@xxx.mil] Sent: Thursday, January 18, 1996 1:19 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE: EFI with SPIF? > Check out the new DFI Sequential box, I'm pretty sure it does this. = =3D > There old boxes were some sort of batch fire but did do knock sensing = - - =3D > I have one of these on my Mustang.. Thank you for the reply Jim. I talked to the guys at Electromotive. =20 They said that they can make their TEC-II do SPFI, but they asked why would you want to do that. They normally do a phased squirt of two injectors at a time for a 4 cyl engine. In other words the injectors are fired when its piston is at the top of its stroke. I asked if their knock control scheme retards all four cylinders, and they said yes. They haven't allowed for the control of the timing for each of the cylinders like Bosche does. He suggested that I shouldn't be tuning so close to knock anyways. 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Ah! but these injectors aren't connected directly accross 12V. Manufacturers either use a current limiting resistor or peak and hold drivers. Some new vehicles now use high impedence injectors (16 ohm??) so the injector can be hit directly with 12V and thus save a few cents per vehicle. Andrew - ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate CIM Centre - Swinburne University PO Box 218 Hawthorn Victoria 3122 Australia Phone: +61 3 9214 8296 Fax: +61 3 9819 4949 ------------------------------ From: marchil@xxx.net Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 17:46:40 Subject: Opinions on idea ...... Hi Rod You have the right idea but the flap-type air meter will restrict the air flow, I think you would be better off with a MAF sensor and use a frequency to voltage conver ter and then obtain Vout. U will have much better air flow and less air turbulance in the manifold. If you could Email me information on the 12A turbo you have in Australia it wou ld be welcomed since we did not have this option on the RX-7's in north america, I to am a rotary lover, and could get this engine from a local mazda dealer but he does n ot have any specs, only that it would cost me 1200$CA for a complete used engine. Thank's Alain //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@xxx.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 ------------------------------ From: KMJMS@xxx.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 19:30:19 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI with SPIF? Hi guys I am having trouble viewing the files you send can anybody help out? Kirk ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 19:04:37 CST Subject: Cyberdyne A/F meter This was posted to the monte carlo list. Can anyone comment on the accuracy of the Cyberdyne A/F meter? This thing apparently costs about $30... - ------------------- Steve- I too am amazes at my next statement, but the Cyberdyne *can* tell the aproximate a/f ratio with their 10 segment meter!! With the meter came a sheet that has the meaning of eack segment of the gauge. It gives the a/f mixture for gas, propane & alcohol! The most rich is 12:1 and the most lean was (is) 17:1. I could even see the O2 sensor heating up when I did a cold start. The lites would lite up one by one till I had about 12:1 a/f mixture and in a few more minutes, the engine would go into closed loop and the gauge would start bouncing up and down to achieve the stoich mixture. I'm telling you, this little baby worked real good. At wot, w/o the larger fuel pump, I would drop the lites (lean out) at about 16 lbs of boost and 6500 rpm, with the larger pump, I could hold 20 psi till 7500 rpm. This gauge saved my ass a few times. Frank - ------------------- Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Dennison" Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:09:40 EST+10 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses On 18 Jan 96 at 14:19, Markus Strobl wrote: > According to the service manual on my 96 Camaro, the PCM monitors > the resistance of each fuel injector, and if the resistance drops > too low, the driver is disabled, and a trouble code is set. > The new motorola (and Harris?) 'high impedence" drivers do this. The most important reason for fuses is to stop those those clouds of smoke when something goes horribly wrong - You will find that EVERY 12V rail in a vehicle (except maybe the starter motor) will (or should) have some protection. Andrew - ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate CIM Centre - Swinburne University PO Box 218 Hawthorn Victoria 3122 Australia Phone: +61 3 9214 8296 Fax: +61 3 9819 4949 ------------------------------ From: gavin@xxx.au (Gavin Walker) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:33:48 +1100 (EST) Subject: ECUs Hello, Here's a newbie thinking about the obvious. In control systems you there are three main categories: stochastic, derived and hybrids. Stochastic systems analyse input and out and and try and set up discrete mappings according to optmisation criteria. Derived attempt to solve the physical systems and so specify them as equations rather than tables. A hydbrid uses both where appropriate. Using empirical data to calibrate derived equations and pure stochastic solutions where the equations are too difficult. It seems, from the discussion here, most ECUs seem to be stochastic. I assume this is due to the "try it and see" empirical background of automotive engineers. My soldering skills are best not talked about in polite circles so an ideal development platform would be one like. - ECU running a multitasking operating system - Services available to access input and manipulate outputs (like timing, etc). - Each service would have a local butter to store/read data cyclicly so the optimization can be done externally. - Persistent code/data storage such as FRAM chips. - Laptop interface So you'd have some, say Java, firmware on the FRAM and more bulky code on the PC. Adding new drivers would create new Java objects to manipulate them. Does anything close to this exist or is it all pipe dreams? - -- _--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker / \ | \_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin.walker@xxx.au v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111 ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:41:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: circuit cellar magazine Many people have ask about Circuit Cellar INK magizine. I am including here the subscription info. It is really a good mag and worth the price. Send: $21.95 US $31.95 Canada $49.95 Other (in US funds) to: Circuit Cellar Ink Subscriptions PO BOX 698 Holmes, PA. 19043-9613 Or call 1-800-269-6301 David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:41:04 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... > >If you do not have access to a dyno, use an oxygen sensor, there is a thread >running on them right now. Just drive around and tune it that way > > >Peter Wales I have actually tuned my car this way, using an o2 sensor to find various points of the map. The other points can be extrapolated from a curve generated from the points that were tested. It really works good for a street car. David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:40:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses >I've never seen a fuse blow in a car for any legitimate reason, only >when I was fubling around with the battery connected. And a fuse adds a >few more connections to go bad. Ever have any experiences with those >crappy fuses the German auto makers loved. > >/Bill > > I have actually seen a fuse blow with age. Especially a fast blow type that is subject to high turn on transients like a fuse protecting a motor. As the transient hits, the fuse is heated up for a brief moment but not enough to blow. This crystilizes the fuse link partially actually degrading it's performance. Also don't forget the really shitty fuses that lucas used. David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: Steve Baldwin Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:45:20 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... > > If you do not have access to a dyno, use an oxygen sensor, there is a thread > running on them right now. Just drive around and tune it that way Peter, I was intending to use an O2 sensor in my own system but only as a first approximation, primarily to give me an idea of volumetric efficiency at various rpm and perhaps to calibrate the airflow sensor. Your response above, infers (to me anyway) that you can tell a bit more than this. I would have thought that 'seat of the pants' would fall in between an O2 sensor and a dyno as scientific apparatus. What have I missed ? Steve. ------------------------------ From: FIScot@xxx.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:28:08 -0500 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses Subj: Re: Injectors and fuses Date: 96-01-18 11:01:46 EST From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) >> I would think that most auto >> vmakers use some fuse in the circuit, whether it is replaceable >> (read visible) or not is another issue. May be just a fusible >> link in the wiring somewhere. > Darrell, > No auto manufacturer is going to bury a fusible link in the wiring > anywhere which will totally disable the car and cannot be replaced! > No fuses in the injector feeds. CPU maybe, but not injectors. > Peter Wales Peter, GM uses fuses in all injector circuits that I have seen. Remember that the fuse is not there to protect drivers in the ECM, it is to prevent a fire in the wiring if something goes wrong! Your house is wired with CBs or fuses, right? These are not to protect the device you plugged in. They are there to protect the wiring and prevent a fire! Scot Sealander FIScot@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Lfaustini@xxx.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:40:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Ford Sierra Cosworth ECU Prom Jeez, want to sart a wholy war?? just say a few words about who used what microcontroler and why... :) 6803 is not a bad chip, and I am sure the Cosworth system works well. I was -just- saying, if I had the resources, which maybe Cosworth did not, I would choose the 8061 (which is a custom 8096) over the 6803 any day. And maybe twice on sunday. Doesn't mattter, I would choose a 6811, or even better, a 68000 (332??) if I had total financial freedom..... and then I would surround it in Altera FPGA's.... and have a car that was smarter and faster then the average fax-moedm.. :) (which usually has 2X the power of PC its hooked up to :) ) ---Lou ------------------------------ From: Danny Wallace Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:01:48 +0800 Subject: C cellar mag - reply - in Oz For those in Australia a couple of other options: 1) If you WWW access, CC Ink have a site at http://www.circellar.com/ with subscription and back issue info if you care to send your credit card details via the net. 2) International Subscription Agencies Pty Ltd will liase with the mag. The rate is about $20 extra ($91 for the yearly 12 issues). Ph: 1800 777 134 (freecall) P.O. Box 709 Toowong Qld 4066 Danny Wallace wallad@xxx.au ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #15 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".