DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 20 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 016 In this issue: Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses Injector Data Needed Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses Digital Distributorless Ignition System Re: Opinions on idea ...... Re: Injectors and fuses Re: Opinions on idea ..... Re: Injectors and fuses PROM programmer info needed Re: Opinions on idea ...... Re: Opinions on idea ...... stochiometric mixture WOT workaround Available wiring and hardware Electric parts sources Re: Opinions on idea ..... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 21:37:29 +1100 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... >> >> If you do not have access to a dyno, use an oxygen sensor, there is a thread >> running on them right now. Just drive around and tune it that way > > >Peter, > >I was intending to use an O2 sensor in my own system but only as a first >approximation, primarily to give me an idea of volumetric efficiency at >various rpm and perhaps to calibrate the airflow sensor. >Your response above, infers (to me anyway) that you can tell a bit more >than this. I would have thought that 'seat of the pants' would fall in >between an O2 sensor and a dyno as scientific apparatus. >What have I missed ? > >Steve. > Steve, this stuff is like anything if you can measure what you are doing you can sort it out. The better you can measure the better your result. (It also helps if you know what your are doing.) But 'seat of the pants' can be a lot of fun depending on what your driving ! regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design ------------------------------ From: mrb@xxx.au (Mark Boxsell) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 21:31:03 +1100 Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses > >>I've never seen a fuse blow in a car for any legitimate reason, only >>when I was fubling around with the battery connected. And a fuse adds a >>few more connections to go bad. Ever have any experiences with those >>crappy fuses the German auto makers loved. >> >>/Bill >> >> >I have actually seen a fuse blow with age. Especially a fast blow type that >is subject to high turn on transients like a fuse protecting a motor. As >the transient hits, the fuse is heated up for a brief moment but not enough >to blow. This crystilizes the fuse link partially actually degrading it's >performance. > >Also don't forget the really shitty fuses that lucas used. > >David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com >Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 >Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 >89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 >74 Pantera w/Electromitive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | >Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | > > Are yes! Lucas prince of darkness. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 09:22:42 EST Subject: Injector Data Needed Does anyone have information on the injectors that were used by GM on the 1.9L, 2.0L, and the 2.3L or 2.5L "Iron Duke" 4's in the mid to late '80's. This was a throttle body injection system..Thanks in advance for any info you have rega rding #/hr, markings, etc.... After I sent this message I made a mistake and removed myself from the mailing list....If anyone has sent a reply to this question, please send it again....Th anks... Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster) ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 09:31:34 EST Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... >I was intending to use an O2 sensor in my own system but only as a first >approximation, primarily to give me an idea of volumetric efficiency at >various rpm and perhaps to calibrate the airflow sensor. >Your response above, infers (to me anyway) that you can tell a bit more >than this. I would have thought that 'seat of the pants' would fall in >between an O2 sensor and a dyno as scientific apparatus. >What have I missed ? The problem will be in the steady state conditions. It will be very difficult to tell that the fuelling is correct when travelling on a road at 50 MPH. You could adjust it quite a long way to go from too rich to too lean andthe engine would just run the same. The situation when you are accelerating is different as the fuelling will have to be closer to correct to run nicely. So, if you get the fuelling correct at steady speed, when you accelerate you will only have to supply a small amount of enrichment to get smooth acceleration without hesitation or bogging. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 09:49:55 EST Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses > > No auto manufacturer is going to bury a fusible link in the wiring > > anywhere which will totally disable the car and cannot be replaced! > GM puts 2 fuses in the system for the ECM system. One 20 Amp one permantly on for the computer and the other 20 Amp one switched by the ignition. The second one also feeds the injectors and the fuel pump and anything else which is controlled by the ECM. No fusible links! Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 11:00:44 EST Subject: Digital Distributorless Ignition System Item Subject: Meddelandetext > >The Programmable, Digital Distributorless Ignition System is finished! Thank >God. Anyhow, all of you had expressed interest in the system sometime in the >past so I wanted to update you. > >The best way to get the articles is via my Web page at >http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe. I tried to find this website but it did not exist. Whats wrong? Tommy > ------------------------------ From: neville@xxx.COM (Neville Newman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 12:26:25 PST Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ...... > From: marchil@xxx.net > Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 17:46:40 > > Hi Rod > > You have the right idea but the flap-type air meter will restrict the air flo w, I think > you would be better off with a MAF sensor and use a frequency to voltage conv erter and > then obtain Vout. > U will have much better air flow and less air turbulance in the manifold. > i had wondered about this myself, so when i had my car (1.3L Fiat w/ L-Jet) on a dyno a while back, i gave it a test. At full-power, with stady readinds on the dyno screen, i pinned air vane in place and pulled the hose off the backside. There was no change in any of the readings from the dyno or the Sun 4-gas analyzer that was hooked up. The obvious conclusion is that the mixture didn't change, and thus there was no difference in restriction between having the air vane sensor in the way or not. Not the most scientific test in the world, but it convinced me. -neville ------------------------------ From: lusky@xxx. Lusky) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 13:52:16 CST Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses Peter Wales writes: > > > No auto manufacturer is going to bury a fusible link in the wiring > > > anywhere which will totally disable the car and cannot be replaced! > > > GM puts 2 fuses in the system for the ECM system. One 20 Amp one permantly > on for the computer and the other 20 Amp one switched by the ignition. > > The second one also feeds the injectors and the fuel pump and anything else > which is controlled by the ECM. > > No fusible links! My 91 GMC 2500 (TBI 350) had about half a dozen fusible links. - -- Jonathan R. Lusky lusky@xxx.edu http://www.hotrod.com (615) 726-8700 - ------------------------------------- ------------------------------ 68 Camaro Convertible - 350 / TH350 \_/ 80 Toyota Celica - 20R / 5spd ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:01:25 +0500 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... "Steve, this stuff is like anything if you can measure what you are doing you can so rt it out." Don't count on it! For example, no one but your exhaust valves and piston crown s can tell you what running stoich at WOT feels like. Without certain feedback from the track timer, O2 sensor or even exhaust temps, you are only likely to f eel stoich to lean mixtures when you burn your pistons. THEN the car slows down . Even the track timer can be dangerous, so it more than helps if you know what you are doing. ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:16:42 EST Subject: Re: Injectors and fuses >Jonathan R. Lusky writes > >My 91 GMC 2500 (TBI 350) had about half a dozen fusible links. > In the injector supply? Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Florida Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham "Timing is everything" ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:20:24 -0800 Subject: PROM programmer info needed I need information and software for a GTEK prom programmer. Model 7228, serial # 2CX0606. Without the software, it is just a small box with two jacks and a power cable. Eric Elliott ------------------------------ From: Andrew Huang Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:15:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ...... Hi, > U will have much better air flow and less air turbulance in the manifold. I'm a new name on the list and, throwing caution to the wind, might I ask whether turbulence is a bad thing in a manifold? At one point, I believe, turbulence was sought as a feature to promote mixing of the mixture, as it were. Or, has the technology of the injectors obviated the need for it? - -andy huang (Seeking, slowly, to port fuel injection from a VW CIS K-jet to a Lotus Europa.) ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 16:28:28 GMT Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ...... >i had wondered about this myself, so when i had my car (1.3L Fiat w/ L-Jet) >on a dyno a while back, i gave it a test. At full-power, with stady readinds >on the dyno screen, i pinned air vane in place and pulled the hose off >the backside. There was no change in any of the readings from the dyno or >the Sun 4-gas analyzer that was hooked up. The obvious conclusion is that >the mixture didn't change, and thus there was no difference in restriction >between having the air vane sensor in the way or not. Not the most scientific >test in the world, but it convinced me. > > -neville I did a test some years ago when I had the stock EFI on the turbo rotary. put a vac gauge just downstream of the air flow meter. If I remember right I saw 5-7" vac under boost at 6-7kRPM. That is one of the reasons I switched to a TEC. Fred ------------------------------ From: PRodda@xxx.com Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:03:34 -0800 Subject: stochiometric mixture WOT workaround >"Steve, > this stuff is like anything if you can measure what you are doing you can >sort it out." > >Don't count on it! For example, no one but your exhaust valves and piston >crowns can tell you what running stoich at WOT feels like. Without certain >feedback from the track timer, O2 sensor or even exhaust temps, you are only >likely to feel stoich to lean mixtures when you burn your pistons. THEN the >car >slows down. Even the track timer can be dangerous, so it more than helps if >you >know what you are doing. comment on the above - i have used EGT to flag a cockpit warning light when EGT runs too high for too long (running open loop ECU with turbo + injection) as a counter to accidentally running high WOT EGT. crude, but it works well enough when you're DIY at this game. originally intended having it trigger water/methanol injection to lower temps - abandoned idea as we are talking fast road use here not track (i don't want to have to fill a container with MW50 every now and again). mebbe use EGT as additional feedback into ECU to avoid ye meltdown syndrome? comments? paul. ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:21:36 -0800 Subject: Available wiring and hardware Hi, I have a source in the custom engine and wiring harness industry thru which I can get the services and items listed below. Custom wiring harnesses under $300. All new parts, correct wire, simplified harness with all connections for proper closed loop operation. No used OEM plugs on butt splices! Kits of terminals and plug bodies for GM engines. Other engines added per demand. Accessory mounting brackets machined from aluminum stock. Tunnel ram manifolds converted for EFI use on US V8 engines, 260 to 600 CI. Modification of existing harnesses for simple connection to your vehicle. Modification of existing harnesses for added sensors and actuators. For $150, a wiring harness kit of plugs, terminals, heatshrink tubing and wire, partially assembled. The partial assembly avoids the need for all but one special terminal crimper. To install: Plug wires onto your sensors, actuators and injectors. Route the wires as needed. Slide heatshrink tubing on wires as needed. Terminate wires to computer plugs. Splice some wires in the harness. Shrink the heatshrink tubing. The special crimper would be a Packard tool for GM ECU or other tool to match your computer plugs. Or the computer plugs could be sold wired with a bags of butt splices included. I hope to be able to offer complete kits to connect (install) your computer to your engine. If all goes well, all sensors, actuators, connectors will be available as a low cost package. Eric Elliott ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:22:57 -0800 Subject: Electric parts sources Hi, I need a source for Ford electrical connectors. From Ford, the connectors cost over twice the price of GMC connectors. I need a source for electric terminal crimping tools for Packard (GMC) terminals. Packard crimpers are available at $25 to $150. Are cheaper tools available for the connectors used on GMC engines? Are crankshaft timing wheels still to be laser cut? Could the crimp tools also be laser cut? The tools would not need hardened steel to do enough terminals for 1 or 2 engines. I need sources for Bosch and Chrysler electrical parts including all sensors, actuators, connectors used in engine systems. Car Dealer prices are high enough to justify carburetors! Eric Elliott ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:36:28 -0800 Subject: Re: Opinions on idea ..... You wrote: > > From >>there it should be simple to compute the amount of fuel required for any >>flow into the engine. Any drawback to this sort of approach, or is there >>a simpler way to do this. > >Rob, > >This is a theoretical approach, and IMHO it won't work!!! > >There will be more variables to consider. Battery voltage, water >temperature, humidity, etc etc. The problem is that although you may get >within striking distance, you would be better off building something, >generating the mapping system and then mapping it on a dyno, either chassis >or engine. That way you actually generate the numbers the engine wants and >not the theoretical ones which are only ballpark, and will need mapping in >anyway. > >If you do not have access to a dyno, use an oxygen sensor, there is a thread >running on them right now. Just drive around and tune it that way > > >Peter Wales >President Superchips Inc Florida >Chairman Superchips Ltd Buckingham >"Timing is everything" > >the BIG problem is trying to meet emission standards using a mathamatical model other than that keep everything on the rich side and i believe no problem. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #16 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".