DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 23 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 019 In this issue: Re: SHAMELESS EFI332 PROMOTION - was Re: ECUs DDIS Web/FTP site Re: Engine Reversal and EFI cossies, holy wars and non-emission cont Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a RE: Opinions on idea ...... Re: DDIS Web/FTP site Re: DDIS Web/FTP site Re: Engine codes for '84 T/A Re: cossies, holy wars and non-emission cont engine reversal See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul E. Campbell" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 07:50:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: SHAMELESS EFI332 PROMOTION - was Re: ECUs > On 19 Jan 96 at 12:33, Gavin Walker wrote: > > My soldering skills are best not talked about in polite circles so > > an ideal development platform would be one like. > > > > - ECU running a multitasking operating system This is possible..BUT, You'd want a real time and/or event-driven OS. If you happen to be running a huge number cruncher like the mean value engine model as a flat out nonoptimized system strictly for optimizing the lookup tables on the fly, then I can potentially SEE the possibility of running that during the idle times available when the real time requirements don't pre-empt your model right off the system. > > - Services available to access input and manipulate outputs > > (like timing, etc). - Each service would have a local butter to > > store/read data cyclicly so the optimization can be done > > externally. - Persistent code/data storage such as FRAM chips. - > > Laptop interface Laptop is no problem. Know what RS-232 is? Good, know what a MAX232 is? Costs about $2-$10 for the laptop interface (serial port), depending on just how much you want to spend on your DB-25 or DB-9 for gold plating, better connectors, etc. Now, as far as the "FRAM" goes, ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? Do you realize how expensive that stuff is? It will not kill you to maybe use something dirt cheap like SRAMs with a "power shutdown mode" while the engine is off or even using a nice serial EEPROM for ultra-low power. > > So you'd have some, say Java, firmware on the FRAM and more bulky > > code on the PC. Adding new drivers would create new Java objects to > > manipulate them. What is this fascination with Java? Native code runs way faster and speed is the key any day with engine controllers..I can argue the merits of a 32 bit processor running every timing loop vs. using a cheap 8 bitter using PLL's to handle the faster timing requirements and offsetting the processor load, but running Java? I really fail to see the point of Java even for it's intended purpose..there are tons of other better already existing languages for the purpose Java is used for (Postscript Level 2, TCL/TK come to mind) as well as if you are actually going to stick a byte coded interpreter in the box just to make your life harder (Forth has much better support in the microcontroller world). > The EFI332 project is a step towards what your dreaming about - it > uses a 32 bit processor and will use RTEMS - a real time multi > tasking OS. The real time bits are controlled by a fancy timer system > and there is FLASH memory and battery backed RAM, all you'd need to > do is write the java firmware! I'll bite this time. Why use flash memory over a serial EEPROM? I can only think of three reasons: 1. You've got a PCMCIA slot for the world's easiest reprogramming. 2. Faster read/write times (overkill if it already uses battery backed RAM). 3. Denser storage. I used a serial EEPROM in my last project (a 6 month data logger)... I needed power failure protected memory. It has a whopping 8 pins on it, and you don't need 4 of them (address select lines..tied to power or ground). The serial stream format is kind of awkward but trivial to use once you get working subroutines written. They cost about $5 for a 4K chip, which equates to about 3 months for my data logger purposes. That's also about the size of the storage requirements I've seen quoted on the EFI list for their engine lookup tables. ------------------------------ From: tdrury@xxx.edu Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 08:23:52 EST Subject: DDIS Web/FTP site >The web site and ftp address dont seem to work, are they correct? > >Sandy Web: http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe FTP: spbted.gtri.gatech.edu (login: anonymous) I was hoping people would visit my machine and I got my wish! There has been so much volume that the HTTP and FTP daemon have been dying. I'm working on the problem so please be patient. Keep trying! BTW, the equations are now in the second article and all the links are working. Please let me now if you have problems. - -tim ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:22:09 EST Subject: Re: Engine Reversal and EFI ~ (1) The crankshaft rotation (and hence firing order) must be reversed ~ (thought the camshaft and distributor rotation is preserved). Would this ~ preclude using the stock fuel injection system (either TBI or CMFI)? If so, ~ are there workarounds? I would think that all you have to do is follow the new firing order (ignition, etc). If the EFI uses any type of crank sensor wheel which also synchronizes the system, it will have to be flipped. ~ ~ (2) The Corvair speedometer is driven by a cable turned by a front wheel. ~ Can this, through appropriate gearing, be used for a vehicle speed sensor? This should work. If memory recalls, the Chevy setup wants 1000 pulses per mile. ~ ~ (3) 1993 and later computers also interface with the transmission. Since ~ I'm going to use the Corvair transmission, how should I terminate the unused ~ terminals (i.e., leave open, ground, ground through resistance)? ~ If the old transmission was just and overdrive tranny with a lockup converter (e.g. 700R4, etc), the wires only control the converter. So you can leave the wires hanging in this case. Anything else I am not sure of. ~ - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: PRodda@xxx.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:42:24 -0800 Subject: cossies, holy wars and non-emission cont ======================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk ======================== >Jeez, want to sart a wholy war?? just say a few words about who used >what microcontroler and why... :) >6803 is not a bad chip, and I am sure the Cosworth system works well. I >was -just- saying, if I had the resources, which maybe Cosworth did not, I >would choose the 8061 (which is a custom 8096) over the 6803 any day. And >maybe twice on sunday. Doesn't mattter, I would choose a 6811, or even >better, a 68000 (332??) if I had total financial freedom..... and then I >would surround it in Altera FPGA's.... and have a car that was smarter and >faster then the average fax-moedm.. :) (which usually has 2X the power of >PC its hooked up to :) ) > > >---Lou i did not, unfortunately, get any of the 'Holy War' volleys to which Lou refers but here's a quick thought on the 'Holy War' sierra cosworth 6803 ecu - bear in mind the small fact that no car manufacturer is going to spend more than they absolutely have to - the 6803 is pretty damned cheap and not bad at doing a mass-market job. the closest that most drivers (even cossie freaks) get to the gubbins of their ECUs is to maybe do a 'chip change' on the eprom and/or change MAP sensors and injectors. the lunatic fringe (i.e. most of us who are interested in HAVING some control (not simply working with existing control s/w)). ps - is there anyone else out there who comes from (and is going back to) a NON-emission controlled country (yes, they're out there! South Africa for one...)? paul. ======================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk ======================== ------------------------------ From: PRodda@xxx.com Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:50:45 -0800 Subject: Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a =========================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk =========================== I am curious - admittedly I haven't spoken to Superchips but am still curious about just how much the behaviour/response of these nasty 'tamper-proof' ecus can be modified by the Superchips' ICON box. From the bits I've read, it sounds damned simple in concept and clever in execution - but very little info appears to be in circulation otherwise. Anyone know much about this clever device? This is sheer curiosity - sounds to me to be good for 'mildly' modified engines (somehow don't get the feeling that it'd be able to handle too much variation (particularly on the ignition side - injection pulses can still be delayed ever so slightly without killing things too much)). paul. =========================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk =========================== UMM -- I THINK I APPENDED INCORRECT EMAIL ADDRESS TO MY COMMENT ON THE COSSIE ECU. SORRY. ------------------------------ From: "Brandon L. Walters" Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:51:29 -0600 Subject: RE: Opinions on idea ...... - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BAE8F4.5C0B0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andrew Huang[SMTP:ajh@xxx.edu] wrote: ...might I ask whether turbulence is a bad thing in a manifold? It can be OK, especially at part throttle, for the reason you said. = This is why you see experienced tuners intentionally leaving burr marks = in some intake ports. If air was the only fluid in the runner, and the = injected fuel was perfectly mixed before the spark plug saw it, a = smooth, "laminar flow"-ing intake runner would be best. 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There has > been so much volume that the HTTP and FTP daemon have been dying. I'm > working on the problem so please be patient. Keep trying! > > BTW, the equations are now in the second article and all the links are > working. Please let me now if you have problems. > > -tim I was able to access your site back when you only had part I. Now that you have announced Part II, I have had no luck accessing your site. Anyone else have any luck? What is the chance you can email me the article? Thanks! - -Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:02:03 -0500 Subject: Re: DDIS Web/FTP site > > >> Web: http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe >> FTP: spbted.gtri.gatech.edu (login: anonymous) >> >> I was hoping people would visit my machine and I got my wish! There has >> been so much volume that the HTTP and FTP daemon have been dying. I'm >> working on the problem so please be patient. Keep trying! >> >> BTW, the equations are now in the second article and all the links are >> working. Please let me now if you have problems. >> >> -tim > > I was able to access your site back when you only had part I. Now that >you have announced Part II, I have had no luck accessing your site. Anyone >else have any luck? > >What is the chance you can email me the article? > >Thanks! > >-Steven Ciciora > > I accessed it this afternoon and received parts I & II along with drawings, etc...No problems at all.. Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster) ------------------------------ From: Donald Whisnant Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:30:14 -0800 Subject: Re: Engine codes for '84 T/A > >From: FIScot@xxx.com >Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:40:54 -0500 >Subject: Re: Engine codes for '84 T/A > > Subj: Engine codes for '84 T/A > Date: 96-01-21 13:31:47 EST > From: ws6transam@xxx.net (Daniel R Burk) > > > Does anyone have the hexadecimal engine codes for the GM ALDL computers > > as used in '82 through '92? I have an '84 that I want to begin > > communicating with, but I do not know which addresses I need to poll to > > receive the engine diagnostics data. So far I have struck out in > > finding them via the random method. Also, the ALDL interface seems to > > have the pins in the wrong locations than the "official" designation. > Scott and Dan: I have several of the older ECM's that I want to communicate with also (we've talked about this a little before Dan). I am putting a new engine (a '93 4.3L Vortec V6) into my '85 Grand Prix. The new engine came complete with its own ECM. What I want to do is first communicate to the old ECM. And then to the new '93 ECM. Question 1) Where did you guys obtain this data on the ALDL port of the 8192 baud rate spec and 160 baud ALDL diag box?? I have the SAE HS-3000 doc, but it basically only talks about the newer OBD-II, which will come in handy later when I start tinkering on my '95 Firebird... Question 2) I have been trying to read the old ROM in the '85 ECM without success. I've been told that it is just a mask programmed version of the 2732. But one of my eprom programmers just reads all 0's and the other just reads all 1's -- the conclusion I drew was that the chip isn't getting enabled and the 0 and 1 difference is the difference in the pull-ups used on the two units. Has anyone else tried this and/or has a solution?? -- I've contemplated using several cpu output ports and just writing ALL possible binary combinations to ALL lines on the chip via current limiting resistors and then use a set of input ports to read the pins at the chip side of the resistors. This will do 2 things: it will tell me an exact pin out -- after I sort through the data -- and it will tell me how to enable the stupid thing... Any idea guys??? I've got a meeting Thursday with an engineer and a rep from Harris on their OBD-II J1850 communcations chips and I've got a conference scheduled with Motorola with one of their engineers and reps on the same. Eventually, I will be able to communicate with this blasted ECMs and PCMs... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Steve Baldwin Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:46:17 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: Re: cossies, holy wars and non-emission cont > ps - is there anyone else out there who comes from (and is going back to) a > NON-emission controlled country (yes, they're out there! South Africa for > one...)? > > paul. No emission laws here in New Zealand. We are only just banning leaded petrol in favour of something a bit more carcinogenic. And there's still plenty of Morris 1000's in daily use. Folk law has that a Qantas pilot once said, "We are approaching Auckland airport. Please set your watches back 10 years." :-) Steve. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 14:57:47 Subject: engine reversal Hey James I keep getting a bounce back from your mail server, so I'll post the answers here. Hope no one else minds. Well its a 71 model. It uses a 127 (903cc) block with the standard 850 crank (I think). I know the pistons have been swapped around on the rods to allow for the engine running the opposite way. Currently it has a suzuki SOHC head on it (don't know what suzuki, someone else actually spent a day going around with an 850 head gasket, and comparing it to all others). To accomodate for oil a few external oil lines have been put in to feed the top end. The fuel is via an electric fuel pump feeding two 40mm side draft Webbers. Water cooling is via a front mounted radiator. At last dyno test the car was putting out just over 90HP at the rear wheels. We have been thinking of EFI as well, probably a system of a jap import to make it cheap. If you want lots of power try stroking the crank to a 1050 crank, bore out the engine to 80mm (I think) and put in Honda pistons. This should take it to somewhere near 1500cc and close to 200HP at the rear wheels. This is one of our idears, or just put in a rotary. As for other places for information, I am not too sure. I do know there is an internet site somewhere that has a lot of Fiat info, however it may be in italian. If you search for it and happen to find it can you let me know where it is. Anyway hope it helped, I have heard of special built racing engines being available in the US for the 850 for only a few thousand. Mabye you could find some info on this. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #19 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".