DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 24 January 1996 Volume 01 : Number 020 In this issue: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module Re: Map's chart Re: DDIS Web/FTP site Re: Map's chart Re: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module Re: Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a Re: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module Re: SHAMELESS EFI332 PROMOTION - was Re: ECUs Fiat WWW page ICON do it! Re: Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a (Fwd) Developing an Engine Control System See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: imonkare@xxx.fi Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:29:42 +0200 (WET) Subject: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module Hi! Could someone help me with a Ford EEC-IV TFI ignition module of a=20 Ford Sierra (with HALL sensor and european ECU). I=B4ve built a control=20 unit of a Siemens SAB80C517 microcontroller and now I have some=20 difficulties in controlling the IM. I=B4ve come this far: output ------- ------ of | | HALL |_________| / \ / Start advance (say 12 deg BTDC) "Max" advancd (about 90 deg BTDC) "Start advance" is the point where EEC-IV fires when starting the engine.= =20 Even if the ECU is disconnected the IM fires at "start advance" (limp=20 home). The ECU tells to the IM when to fire with a rising edge. I tried=20 that too. I switched the ignition signal OFF at "max advance" an ON when=20 I wanted to fire, I could fire only AFTER "start advance". When I had an=20 advance of about 30 deg the IM fired at "start advance". So, a few questions: Am I so far right? Does ECU take care of dwell? With the falling edge? How to calculate that? Here is something about me. I=B4m studing telecommunications in Institute= =20 of Techology in Turku, Finland. I=B4ve built a control unit of a Siemens=20 SAB80C517. So far I have software only for ingition (almost ready),=20 injection is coming in summer. My car is a Ford Taunus =B482 with Motronic= =20 (from Sierra) and turbo. imonkare@xxx.fi ------------------------------ From: jzalesny@xxx.com (JimZ -92' AWD Tsi ) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:43:18 -0800 Subject: Re: Map's chart You wrote: > This chart is for normal aspirated engines >How I can put a graphic chart on the DIY_EFI? >Forgive my delay. >Oscar Alcantara. Oscar, I'm looking for the MAS information for the DSM line of products. This includes the Plymouth Laser/Eagle Talon/Mitsubishi Eclipse line of cars. The MAS is a FM frequency signal producer. My car came with a tubocharger and I'm trying to defeat the problem of fuel cut by limiting the FM signal supplied by the MAS. If you have any data for this I would like to receive a copy of it. ThanX Jim Zalesny (I'm glad your system is up and working) ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:35:45 -0500 Subject: Re: DDIS Web/FTP site Try the following addresses for the Digital Distributorless Ignition System papers...I just tried it and received both. The addresses in the last message don't work... >>> Web: http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/ddis1.html (Part 1) http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu:80/hpe/ddis2.html (Part 2) Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster) ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:18:49 +0500 Subject: Re: Map's chart JIm Zalesny wrote: "My car(Talon/Eclipse/Laser) came with a tubocharger and I'm trying to defeat the problem of fuel cut by limiting the FM signal supplied by the MAS." You realize this is Mitsu's way of protecting the engine from running lean when it demands more fuel than the stock system can deliver. Please upgrade your fuel system before bypassing the fuel cut. You should also install an EGT monitor and/or A/F meter(even though the meter reads voltage from the stock non-linear O2 sensor, it'll tell you if you've gone leaner than stoich, which you should never do at WOT). Of course, you may already know all this, but a little redundant advice never burnt any pistons... While I'm on the topic, the T/E/L info is below: Submissions: talon@xxx.org Subscriptions: majordomo@xxx.org (send the word "help" in a message body) Home Page: http://www.dsm.org FTP Archives: ftp://talon:eclipse@xxx.org Ed Hernandez ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:59:09 Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module >Hi! Could someone help me with a Ford EEC-IV TFI ignition module of a=20 >Ford Sierra (with HALL sensor and european ECU). I=B4ve built a control=20 >unit of a Siemens SAB80C517 microcontroller and now I have some=20 >difficulties in controlling the IM. > >I=B4ve come this far: > >output ------- ------ >of | | >HALL |_________| > / \ > / Start advance (say 12 deg BTDC) > "Max" advancd > (about 90 deg BTDC) > >"Start advance" is the point where EEC-IV fires when starting the engine.= >=20 >Even if the ECU is disconnected the IM fires at "start advance" (limp=20 >home). The ECU tells to the IM when to fire with a rising edge. I tried=20 >that too. I switched the ignition signal OFF at "max advance" an ON when=20 >I wanted to fire, I could fire only AFTER "start advance". When I had an=20 >advance of about 30 deg the IM fired at "start advance". > >So, a few questions: Am I so far right? >From the way you've described your TFI unit functionality, my guess is that it's not a Ford TFI unit but a Ford EDIS unit. This takes in the 36-1 signal from the VRS sensor (not HALL) and converts it to a signal with 50% dutycycle and rising edges at 10 deg BTDC for each cylinder which it feeds through to the EEC-iv. In return the EEC-iv sends out a required spark advance signal every firing event where the width of the pulse sent relates to the spark advance required. The pulse timing from the ECU does NOT affect the ignition timing. After a certain number of firing events without receiving a valid advance pulse from the ECU, the EDIS switches to it's default spark advance which is 10 deg BTDC. The EDIS unit of course drives the standard Ford twin-coil pack (wasted spark). >Does ECU take care of dwell? With the falling edge? How to calculate that? > Dwell is handled automatically by the EDIS unit, but rate of change of spark advance must be limited by the ECU to a few degrees per firing event to avoid screwing it up. > >imonkare@xxx.fi > ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:31:12 Subject: Re: Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a >=========================== >EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk >=========================== >I am curious - admittedly I haven't spoken to Superchips but am still >curious about just how much the behaviour/response of these nasty >'tamper-proof' ecus can be modified by the Superchips' ICON box. From the >bits I've read, it sounds damned simple in concept and clever in execution - >but very little info appears to be in circulation otherwise. Anyone know >much about this clever device? > >This is sheer curiosity - sounds to me to be good for 'mildly' modified >engines (somehow don't get the feeling that it'd be able to handle too much >variation (particularly on the ignition side - injection pulses can still be >delayed ever so slightly without killing things too much)). > Having looked at a similar idea a couple of years ago coupled with seeing an advert for the ICON, my guess on how it works is that it connects between the coil drivers coming out of the standard ECU and the coil pack. It intercepts the coil on/off signals from the ECU, modifies them dependent on an RPM-in Spark-Modifier-out 2-D Map (RPM being calculated by looking at the time between spark events) and then sends them on their way again. Plus points are that it allows you to vary spark on previously unmodified ECU's, minus points are that you apparently can't modify the maps yourself, you have to request new maps from Superchips, Second concern is that any ECU requested spark advance will always happen one event late as you can't tell the ECU's advanced the spark until you've got the coil-off from the ECU whereupon it should already have happened so you can't adjust it until the next firing event. For what it's worth, I'd guess it has a PIC inside and probably not a lot else apart from some coil drivers and circuit protection logic. Of course, Peter from Superchips is a member here so he may correct my asumptions .... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@xxx.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:59:09 Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV Ignition Module >Hi! Could someone help me with a Ford EEC-IV TFI ignition module of a=20 >Ford Sierra (with HALL sensor and european ECU). I=B4ve built a control=20 >unit of a Siemens SAB80C517 microcontroller and now I have some=20 >difficulties in controlling the IM. > >I=B4ve come this far: > >output ------- ------ >of | | >HALL |_________| > / \ > / Start advance (say 12 deg BTDC) > "Max" advancd > (about 90 deg BTDC) > >"Start advance" is the point where EEC-IV fires when starting the engine.= >=20 >Even if the ECU is disconnected the IM fires at "start advance" (limp=20 >home). The ECU tells to the IM when to fire with a rising edge. I tried=20 >that too. I switched the ignition signal OFF at "max advance" an ON when=20 >I wanted to fire, I could fire only AFTER "start advance". When I had an=20 >advance of about 30 deg the IM fired at "start advance". > >So, a few questions: Am I so far right? >From the way you've described your TFI unit functionality, my guess is that it's not a Ford TFI unit but a Ford EDIS unit. This takes in the 36-1 signal from the VRS sensor (not HALL) and converts it to a signal with 50% dutycycle and rising edges at 10 deg BTDC for each cylinder which it feeds through to the EEC-iv. In return the EEC-iv sends out a required spark advance signal every firing event where the width of the pulse sent relates to the spark advance required. The pulse timing from the ECU does NOT affect the ignition timing. After a certain number of firing events without receiving a valid advance pulse from the ECU, the EDIS switches to it's default spark advance which is 10 deg BTDC. The EDIS unit of course drives the standard Ford twin-coil pack (wasted spark). >Does ECU take care of dwell? With the falling edge? How to calculate that? > Dwell is handled automatically by the EDIS unit, but rate of change of spark advance must be limited by the ECU to a few degrees per firing event to avoid screwing it up. > >imonkare@xxx.fi > ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Dennison" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:50:28 EST+10 Subject: Re: SHAMELESS EFI332 PROMOTION - was Re: ECUs On 22 Jan 96 at 7:50, Paul E. Campbell wrote: > > I'll bite this time. Why use flash memory over a serial EEPROM? I > can only think of three reasons: > > 1. You've got a PCMCIA slot for the world's easiest reprogramming. The CPU can reprogram its own flash, it's also a hell of a lot faster to program FLASH than EEPROM. > 2. Faster read/write times (overkill if it already uses battery > backed RAM). > 3. Denser storage. 4. Flexability - use SRAM for development and flash for final code storage, whatever. We intend to use serial EEPROM for some data storage on the I/O board. The processor board (which I was discussing) was developed to be general enough that it could be used for any generic 68332 application. I know you could build a basic EFI system with an 8 bit micro of any flavor and 2K of memory (yea - lets also write in machine code :), but for not much more money you can have a 32bit system with heaps of memory and not have to worry about running out of memory, cpu time, etc. > > The serial stream format is kind of awkward but trivial to use once > you get working subroutines written. These serial devices are great for extra I/O, EEPROM, etc > They cost about $5 for a 4K chip, which equates to about 3 months > for my data logger purposes. That's also about the size of the > storage requirements I've seen quoted on the EFI list for their > engine lookup tables. FLASH $9 for 128K. Sometimes it's worth remembering that your way isn't the only way:) Andrew - ------------------------------------ Andrew Dennison - Research Associate IRIS - Industrial Research Institute - Swinburne University 545 Burwood Rd. Hawthorn Victoria 3122 Australia Phone: +61 3 9214 5033 Fax: +61 3 9214 5050 ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 08:05:57 Subject: Fiat WWW page For those that are interested in the Fiat home page, I now have an address. Official but not technical home page: www.fiat.it Not official but technical home page: www.autocar.com/faqs/fiat/fiat_faq.html For 903 Fiat engine exists a Weber Single Point Injection system developed for Fiat Cinquecento 903. Have a good work! Flavio +--------------------------------------------------------------------- -+ | Magneti Marelli - Weber Flavio Corradini | | Engine Control Division EMail: corradini@xxx.it | | Via Timavo, 33 Tel.: +39 51 6157.835/6157.838 | | I-40134 Bologna (ITALY) Fax.: +39 51 6157.782/6157.735 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------- -+ I haven't looked at the pages myself yet, but they should be interesting. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: PRodda@xxx.com Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:47:34 -0800 Subject: ICON do it! =========================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk =========================== Thanks for the thoughts, Brian. Sounds about right - I must admit that I do have my reservations about the idea for anything other than mildly modified engines or for a little 'tweaking' of factory settings on a std unit. Be interesting to hear from Superchips! Paul. =========================== EMAIL: paul.rodda@xxx.uk =========================== ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:03:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Superchips ICON - anyone know anything a my guess on how it works is that it >connects between the coil drivers coming out of the standard ECU and >the coil pack. It intercepts the coil on/off signals from the ECU, >modifies them dependent on an RPM-in Spark-Modifier-out 2-D Map snip > >For what it's worth, I'd guess it has a PIC inside and probably not >a lot else apart from some coil drivers and circuit protection >logic. You are both (Brian and Paul) absolutely correct. The ICON has an EPROM with a modified timing curve, pic and a few bits of glue circuitry and protection stuff, and a very pretty box :) The ICON is suitable for mildly modified engines and stock engines, but you have to remember that the load is reverse calculated from the RPM and the timing and if it is wildly different from stock, the new timing will be wrong. Of course we can make a custom one, but we need to get the car on our dyno to do it. Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com ------------------------------ From: "Edward J. Lansinger" Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:03:02 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Developing an Engine Control System I can't remember who was talking about engine simulators. If you are out there could you reply to this person? (directly - I don't think he's on this list) Thanks. - - Ed Lansinger - --- Forwarded mail from Gabe Phan Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:57:14 -0800 (PST) From: Gabe Phan To: lansie@xxx.edu Subject: Developing an Engine Control System I'm an EE at the University of California, Riverside doing a senior project. I am doing a simulation of an internal combustion engine given the spark firing and injector signal. I am also developing an engine control for a hydrogen vehicle in a later stage. I was inquiring any information or sources to that may be useful. I read your article in Circuit Cellar INK on developing an engine control. Sources on a model for an IC engine would be helpful. Thank you. + ------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+ | / / / / \ \ Gabe Phan | blakey@xxx.edu | | / /___ / /___ \ \ ------------- | | | /_____/ /_____/ \ \____ ____ | | | O O O O O O O O \_____\ <____> | | +-------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+ - ---End of forwarded mail from Gabe Phan ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #20 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".