DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 8 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 036 In this issue: Re: Re: Spellcheckers ..... Re: Spellcheckers Re: GM TPI system MAF Sensors and Re:Spell Check Re: Spellcheckers Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors Putting SAE papers on the EFI WWW page Re: MAF Sensors Re: GM TPI system Re: Spellcheckers CUT THE SILLYNESS FI with Leaded Fuel.. Re: FI with Leaded Fuel.. RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? Re: Re[2]: Spellcheckers Re: GM TPI system Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: marchil@xxx.net Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 08:16:12 Subject: Re: Re: Spellcheckers ..... OK The bickering has went on long enough. I will reply be my self. And terminate it my self. >Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to the >list. My reaction when I read it is that if the poster can't be bothered to >pose the question properly, why should I waste my time answering it >properly. It all depends upon whether you are a giver or a taker in this >world I suppose. I did not want to post any garbage. And by just re reading my post would have help in getting read of most of the typos. >>Your business side >>is showing. Be careful you don't let Superchips go to your head >>cyberspace will trash you if you do. >Too late, it has already gone to my head, and tried to trash me as well, but >fortunately it failed. No need to point fingers at any one. >> If the guy didn't speak English then the grammar and text content would be >> very different and then everything would be excusable. > >I don't get it. Are you implying that if he had been *completely* >incoherent, that it would be OK; but that since he *almost* had it >right, that its not ? -"are you for real ?" A quote from one of my English teachers will tell it all. "You speak like a native American but you write like an African pigmy" I think this sums it up. I had remouved my spellchecker to re-partition my hard drive to install Linux //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@xxx.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Mark Hillier" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:43:11 +0000 Subject: Re: Spellcheckers > >Funny, most people figured it out quite well. > > It never ceases to amaze me how you guys all know what everyone else is > doing. Must be telepathy or something. Careful, hypocracy can creep-up on you; you have *no* idea how much mail I have received directly about this. I'm sorry Peter, I didn't mean to 'start' something here but you just won't give up. People have sent a ridiculous amount of ;support' mail to me here at work - -so much in fact, that I had better get back to work or else.... >Please feel free to disagree with me and continue to type garbage to >the list. Foul! I put my personal email address in my sig. so the list didn't have to support this....did you ? So don't cry to me about cluttering the list. > Look at the address and the place of employment. If the questioner had been > from a non English speaking country and had made an effort to write the Thank-you for making my point. You have no idea what it is like up here do you ? Why should you...you have probably never been here. Fine, I've never been to Sri Lanka, but if someone comes on to the list with rotten 'habits', and signs from a country that I know *nothing* about, I sure as hell don't flame him. You write freely to the list because you *know* your stuff inside-out. You can argue and correct because you know your EFI intimately. I don't know *that* much about the topic yet. So what ? well, if you say something I think is wrong, I don't jump onto the list and call you a liar, I *quietly* look it up and see who is right. Maybe its me, maybe its you. you're only human and are allowed to make mistakes. My point you ask ? Quebec is mainly French speaking. From your perspective, if you visit here, it could easily be a different country all together...the culture is *that* different. If you don't *know*, the polite thing to do is to keep it to yourself. Now, I consider this to be a closed topic. If you *really* want to debate it more, my home email is Mark@xxx.com My apologies to the list for this interminable diatribe. Mark ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 10:20:43 EST Subject: Re: GM TPI system ~ ~ ~ ~ For anyone out there ~ ~ How do you clean the injectors on the GM TPI systems (85 system). I ~ presume you have to pull them out of the fuel rail ? ~ ~ If so, do you have to pull the whole top apart to get the fuel rail ~ off the manifold bosses ? ~ ~ I know the injectors are held in by a sort of 1/3 turn locking clip, ~ when this is undone do you just pull out the injectors (they seem to ~ be in very tightly) ? ~ ~ Any help appreciated ~ ~ Dan dzorde@xxx.au ~ You can go to shops who will clean the injectors on the car, but what I have heard this has limited success. It is best to remove them, and on a 85 GM removing the fuel rail is real easy (just be sure to replace the o-rings afterwards). If you are electronically-inclined, you can make a fuel injector energizer with a 555 timer and a driver transistor (I made one from a basic Stamp). If not, you can get the energizer device from J.C.Whitneys. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 10:46:41 EST Subject: MAF Sensors and Re:Spell Check Alain Marchildon wrote: >OK >The bickering has went on long enough. >I will reply be my self. >And terminate it my self. Time to throw my 2 cents in - As a third generation American of French Canadian decent, give the guy a break! Alain, c'est ne pas votre probleme, ca va? :-{)> Sometimes *I* write worse in English. Maybe it's in our genes. Getting back to DIY_EFI, does anyone have more information, including the governing equations on hot-wire mass air flow sensors - I may have to work one up for my Briggs & Stratton project. Single cylinder engines (especially leaky flatheads like the B&S) have a horrible (to non-existent) vacuum signal to work with, and I'm not likely to find a MAF sensor with a 1" throat at my Ford dealer. Since the system I'm designing needs to be altitude sensitive, a MAF may be a better approach. The original plan was to use MAP and gather data on the test stand, but time is getting short and a MAF interfaced to a lookup table may be a far better choice than a MAP that may be reading noise. I'm assuming that the MAF hot wire is fed with a constant current and the voltage variation due to temperature-dependent change of resistance is the output that is conditioned further. If anyone has any more info it would be much appreciated. MAP - Manifold Absolute Pressure MAF - Mass Air Flow B&S - Briggs & Stratton, maker of most of the world's lawn mower engines. Cliff Ducharme / "A wing and a prayer" _______[*]_______ b / d My remarks do not reflect the opinions of my employer. ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:43:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Spellcheckers unsubscribe language_debate Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: marchil@xxx.net Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 10:53:06 Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEC-IV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEC-IV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. >Nick Hagen Hi Nick I would find a late model EEC-IV from a 5.0L Mustang. Your present HEGO will be used as the right one. You will have to run a wire from pin 43 from the 60 pin connector to what will be the left HEGO, connect in parallel the other two wires from the right HEGO, one wire is the ground and the other is 12V. Now you have to find a friend or maybe talk to Peter Wales "President of Superchips" and burn a new EPROM with all the information of the mustang EEC-IV except the fuel tables that will come from your pickups EEC-IV or an optimized fuel table would be preferred. Good Luck. //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- // Marchil@xxx.NET // Alain Marchildon // 1271 Bernard West // Outremont, Quebec Canada // H2V 1V8 //---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 09:21:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Putting SAE papers on the EFI WWW page Has anyone ever asked the SAE permission to put some of their papers on the Internet? I have a few that would be good for reference. Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 12:23:43 -0500 Subject: Re: MAF Sensors > I'm assuming that the MAF hot wire is fed with a constant current and the > voltage variation due to temperature-dependent change of resistance is the > output that is conditioned further. If anyone has any more info it would be > much appreciated. where MAF = Mass Air Flow On at least some MAF sensors, the hot wire is fed enough current to maintain a constant wire temperature. The current required is an indication of the mass air flow rate of air past the wire. The electrical power applied to the wire is assumed to be equal to the power lost via convective heat transfer. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:25:03 -0700 Subject: Re: GM TPI system > If you are electronically-inclined, you can make a fuel injector > energizer with a 555 timer and a driver transistor (I made one > from a basic Stamp). If not, you can get the energizer device > from J.C.Whitneys. > > - Bruce > So, once you have the injector removed, and you are pulsing it, then what? Do you have to pressurize it with a fuel pump, and what do you pump through it? I'm assuming you did the above to clean your injectors. Can you just submerge the bottom half of the injector in some sort of cleaner, and pulse away? Thanks for the info! - -Steven Ciciora P.S. I've heard the stamp described as 'The first device easier to use than a 555'. I agree, if you think you might need changes in the future. It's easier to download new basic code than to make major timing changes (in hardware), or if you need to add a delay between two events, etc. ------------------------------ From: tom sparks Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:02:58 -0600 Subject: Re: Spellcheckers CUT THE SILLYNESS Dear Folks: It's time for my standard flame lecture. I have watched many flame wars and have noticed that NONE of them serve ANYONE but the combatants. Flame wars rarely enlighten and always annoy others. What do you kids hope to accomplish? Here's what you are accomplishing: You are showing the world how insecure and petty you can be while wasting everybody's time and disk space. What ever happened to respectful disagreement and the polite dropping of a meaningless subject that no one will agree upon? Or better yet, what happened to discretion? IF YOU MUST FLAME OR REPLY TO A FLAME, DO IT PRIVATELY. ANNOY EACH OTHER, NOT THE ENTIRE GROUP. Now, you may redeem yourselves thusly: Publicly apologize to the group and to one another (I don't EVEN care how right you think you are) for the crimes of incivility and bandwidth waste. I fully realize that flames are an internet tradition, but as far as traditions go, they are as welcome and as useful as a Christmas fruitcake. The holding of one's tongue is as useful in person as it is in a faceless setting like an e-mail list. Flames burn everybody. I apoligize in advance for anyone who thinks this post is a waste of your time. Best Regards, Thomas Sparks P.S. No flames please, anything that even SMELLS like a flame won't even be given the dignity of a reading let alone an acknowledgement. ------------------------------ From: prasad@xxx.com (Krishna Prasad) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:00:44 -0800 Subject: FI with Leaded Fuel.. Hi, Does anyone see a problem in using FI systems with Leaded Fuel. In India, we get only leaded fuel (atleast as of today) and I wanted to experiment FI on some 2-st motorcycles.. Thanks Krishna. ------------------------------ From: robert dingli Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:16:46 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: FI with Leaded Fuel.. Hi Krishna, > Does anyone see a problem in using FI systems with > Leaded Fuel. In India, we get only leaded fuel (atleast > as of today) and I wanted to experiment FI on some 2-st > motorcycles.. Half the cars on our roads here in Australia use leaded fuel, many of which are fuel injected. I've never seen any problems with using leaded fuel as far as the fuel delivery system goes although it is likely that you may experience problems with reduced EGO (exhaust gas oxygen) sensor life. Leaded fuel hasn't appeared to have hurt the EGO sensor that I have used for over 3 years now and it had had six years of use before I installed it. The fact that your project is a two stroke will give you a few more headaches than your choice of fuel. Robert 'hoping that I haven't made a spelling mistake' Dingli - -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin" Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 19:42:59 PST Subject: RE: re: Re: Sensor Questions? >At 10:42 AM 2/5/96 -0800, you wrote: >> >>Clint writes: >> >>>Quick question: what exactly is going to cause this "sudden increase in the >>>amount of required air" that is going to draw a vacuum? >> >>I don't know all of the physics behind it, but it is related to the velocity >>and inertia of the air, length of intake track, etc. The previous post >>about "acceleration enrichment strategies that are a function of throttle >>transients" was correct and is how the computer compensates for this >>condition. >> >>>Just remember that a MAF system also has to be calibrated to the engine it >>is >>>on. The MAF give out a voltage (or frequency) depending on how much air is >>>going through it. It does not tell you "currently, there is x Kg/sec >>flowing >>>through me". >> >>Excuse me? That's exactly what the MAF *does* tell you: mass air flow >>(kg/hr) flowing through the meter and into the engine. That's the beauty of >>the MAF. Pressure, temperature, and density variations do not have a >>(large) effect on the accuracy. >> >>Bryan Zublin >>bzublin@xxx.com >> >> > >I think what Clint is saying is that the MAF produces a frequency or voltage >PROPORTIONAL to the mass of air currently passing through it, rather than a >binary or BCD number showing exactly what the current flow is.....its all a >matter of the way he phrased the statement. With any 2-wire device, it's >usually the user's responsibility to decode the data into some meaningful >result. Thanks, that was what I was TRYING (unsucessfully I might add!) to say. When I reread that sentence, it took me a few minutes to figure it out again. Sorry for the confusing English. Clint ccorbin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 20:43:02 MDT Subject: Re: Re[2]: Spellcheckers > C'mon guys, quit filling up the net with useless crap. Even the best > spellers get it wrong because their dyslexic fingers can't hit the > right keys. Speaking of useless crap, do you really find it necessary to include the ENTIRE TEXT of every message you reply to? A couple of lines would get the point across... Talk about burning up bandwidth... By the way, I agree with Peter on the spellchecker issue...but it's no skin off my a** if the guy wants to come across like Schleprock... I formed my opinion and went on to the next message a long time ago. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: cshaw@xxx.edu (Christine Shaw) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:38:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: GM TPI system Re: Cleaning Fuel Injectors. There is a product available from BG called 44k that is a fuel tank additive that *really* works. I have fixed many a hesitation and emmissions fluctuations on customer's cars. The only drawback is it is not available over the counter. You will have to find a garage or service center to sell it to you. It runs about US$15-20 a can. cshaw@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: masmith Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 00:43:02 -0800 Subject: Re: True dual exhaust and O2 Sensors At 11:14 AM 2/6/96 -0500, you wrote: >Hello > >I'm exploring the possibility of changing from single to true dual exhaust on >my late model Ford truck which appears to have the EEIV and MAF sensor >(California). Do I need to install a second O2 sensor? Would this sensor be >connected parallel to the original or does the EEIV have an input for a >second sensor? I think many (most?) late model mustangs had true dual exhaust >and the controllers are similar I would guess. > >Nick Hagen > my ford ltd (1985 3.8ltr v6) has 2 ego sensors, eec IV, and (eventually) single exhaust.- assuming you use the /a similar controller, must be a second input my error codes routinely distunguish between my lefft sensor not switching and my right sensor not switching. (i thing sensors got silicon fouled but anyway) check out "how to tune and modify Ford injection systems" or similar title from walden/b Daltons. i applolgize for typoes. have wiggling six month old on other arm. (and at risk of massive flaming, how many mail programs like eudora have spell checkers anyway) Matt Smith masmith089@xxx.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #36 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".