DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 13 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 041 In this issue: Re: Multiprocessor system Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... Re: Ducati w/TEC Re: Injector Phasing... Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #39 Cutler Fuel Injection MAF sensor types Re: MAF sensor types Re: Multiprocessor system Vendor List - Add Emerald Cams MAP Questions... Re: MAP Questions... Re: MAP Questions... Re: MAP Questions... Re: Aus curcuit cellar availability.. Re:EGA and pronnunciation - nothing useful....:-) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: btm@xxx.net (Brad Martin) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:16:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system >> Ignition! We are talking injection. > >Ignition, injection, whazza diff? Both gotta happen once per cylinder >per combustion cycle... Big diff..... My VW Rabbit GTI has a CIS system (continuous injection system) - injectors are on all the time (& fuel pressure to them varies), my spark plugs, however, are not 'on all the time'. anyhow, thats my 2 bits.. Peace- The Hacker '92 Subaru SVX '84 VW Rabbit GTI ex-PRO Rally car, now all 'round racer/beater '83 VW Rabbit GTI PRO Rally Car wannabe - hillclimbs too '79 VW Scirocco ice racer - ------- Also, you may want to check out: http://www.win.net/bmicad/welcome.html http://www.win.net/bmicad/strahome.html http://www.win.net/bmicad/nehahome.html ------------------------------ From: "Robert Gallant" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 07:49:18 EST Subject: Re: Fuel Injector Valve Phasing... > I got a surprise when a friend hooked a strobe to his injector tester > and fired it up. The first thing of interest was, all the different > injectors look pretty much the same, whether pintle valve, disc valve, > etc. The second was, they all sort of dribble fuel as they open, then a > small stream, which gradually opens to a narrow angle stalactite(mite?) > looking shape, when then contracts back down to a point before turning > into mist and droplets. The typical spray pattern was about six to > eight inches long. I have some photo's, taken by John De Armond, of two Rx7 injectors, 280 Z injector, and a GM injector. All are port injectors (not throttle body), and they have drastically different patterns. The GM injector (don't know what it is from) flows like water from a garden hose. The Z and Rx7 injectors have a wider spray pattern which is "misty". When I get a chance, I'll scan them into my web page. Later Rob gallant@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:10:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Ducati w/TEC > >On another topic - at one point in this project I took a Seimens injector > >(new) and mounted it on a throttle body mounted to a clear tube. I then > >attached the tube to a vacuum cleaner and attached a 40PSI clean water > >source to the injector. Using this apparatus I could then watch the way the > >injector atomized. I tried this with several different sized injectors, > >different pressures, and a couple of used Bosch injectors. In every case the > >injector emitted an incredibly squirt-gun like stream much to my suprise. It's the water. Water has a much greater surface tension and it takes a MUCH greater force before it shears (i.e. as in cavitation with a boat prop.) than gasoline. I'm not sure which (or both) effect you consider with spray patterns from a nozzle. - --- David Parrish Say it, don't spray it... ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:03:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Injector Phasing... This thread is really amazing. I started off saying there was no increase in power, from injector timing, only economy, and all my tests were done at WOT. Now Steve is complaining he can't park his top fuel dragster at WOT. >Isn't the whole point of EFI to have performance and retain some >driveability ? Otherwise we might as well use something like Hilborn >(open 'em up and pour it in) injection. The thought of trying to park a >top-fueler doesn't appeal to me. > >Steve. > > Peter Wales President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:22:23 GMT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #39 > Has anybody played withTec's superblend software? I haven't (mostly becouse I haven't had a case extreem enough to warrant it) but I have seen it used with success(ie Porsche 911 w/TWM T-Bodys) In cases like yours, the easiest way to go seems to be to vent the MAP sensor to atmosphere and set the percentages to something like 90% TPS 10% MAP. This just turns it into a throttle position based system with a little baro correction. You'll be starting from scratch on your calibration. Also, becouse it is now TPS based it is even more important that you try to accurately fill each cell in the VE(volumetric effeciency) table. Hope this helps, if you have any more specific questions on programming you might want to email me directly. Fred ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:58:01 -0500 Subject: Cutler Fuel Injection Here is the address as promised: Cutler Fuel Injection 19595 NE 10th Ave. N. Miami Beach FL 33179 Tel (305)653-9098 FAX (305)653-9952 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: "Ronald R Hoyt" Date: 12 Feb 1996 12:26:57 -0600 Subject: MAF sensor types Regarding the following mesage posted by Bryan Zublin: -------------------------------------------------------- From: "Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS)" Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) [cut] Bryan Zublin bzublin@xxx.com -------------------------------------------------------- I found this a usefull summary of MAF sensor types to be maintained and disseminated. Will you place it in the DIY-EFI web page at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/ ? It would be desirable to have it readily accessible months from now in its most current form. ------------------------------ From: fridman@xxx.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:19:04 -0700 Subject: Re: MAF sensor types > > I found this a usefull summary of MAF sensor types to be maintained and > disseminated. Will you place it in the DIY-EFI web page at > http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca:80/~fridman/diy_efi/ ? > It would be desirable to have it readily accessible months from now in > its most current form. > All the info should be available in the mailing list archives. If anyone kept all the letters regarding MAF/MAP and want to make it available as part of the diy_efi www pages, I'll be happy to include it. Since there are many topics discussed here, and I can't keep up with all of them, what would be ideal is for certain people to maintain FAQs or archives of the topics and I'll just link to them or copy it. Any volunteers??? RF. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:54:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Multiprocessor system > >Now the injectors are open continuously, the fuel flowing throgh them >will keep them cool. ************************************************** Well by golly Peter...Don't YOU have a spell checker down there???? >************************************************* >If they were to run red hot, that would help vapourisation wouldn't it? :) > > >Peter Wales > > Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx. Harding) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 15:14:33 -0500 Subject: Vendor List - Add Emerald Cams Revised #10 systems info. After Market DIY_EFI Systems: (BASE system prices shown. Usually doesn't include sensors) 1. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA. 22021 (703) 378-2444 All prices ECU only a. HPV-1 Direct fire, Distributorless Ignition US$439 (4 Cyl) UD$459 (6 Cyl) US$499 (8 Cyl) b. HPV-3B " " " " US$664 (4 Cyl) US$689 (6 Cyl) US$724 (8 Cyl) c. TEC-I Engine Management (Fuel&Ign Mgt.) US$1,500 (6 Cyl) US$1,550 (12 Cyl) d. TEC-II " " " " " US$999 (4 Cyl) US$1,029 (6 Cyl) US$1,069 (8 Cyl) e. Software for the above US$150 - US$550 2. Haltech (Australia) US Distributor Performance Automotive Electronics 2158 W. Northwest Highway, Suite 400 Dallas, TX 75220 (214) 831-9800 All prices ECU only a. IG4 Ignition Control US$480 b. F7B EFI system US$640 c. F7C EFI system US$680 d. F9 EFI system US$680 e. E6 EFI system US$960 2a. EFI (Haltech) Unit 7 130 Taren Point Road Taren Point 2229 Sydney Australia 3. Mr. Gasket 8700 Brookpark Rd. Cleveland, OH 44129 (216) 398-8300 Contact Mark Hamel (X488) 3a. ACCEL - Same address and phone 3b. Digital Fuel Injection (DFI)- Owned by Mr. Gasket 37732 Hills Tech Dr. Farmington Hills, MI 48024 a. 74040A Universal US$740 b. 74022L (Chev 350) US$900 c. Calmap software US$185 4. Emtech (Australia) 5. NOS/EFI Tech. 6. Holley 11955 E. Nine Mile Road Warren, MI 48089-2003 a. Pro-Jection US$600 - 1,000 7. Racetech Engineering Bay G 1007 55th Ave.,NE Calgary, Canada T2E 6W1 a. SDS (Simple Digital Systems) EM-1 8. Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd. Van Nuys House Scotlands Dr. Farnham Common Slough SL2-3ES England Phone: 01753-642019 Contact Brian Warburton email: bwarb@xxx.net a. Ignition Management System UK#395 b. Clubmans EFI system UK#495 c. Engine Management System (Ign & EFI) UK#755 d. Programming software - free with purchase 9. Plus 1 Micro, Inc. PO Box 1781 Lawrenceville, GA 30246-1781 a. InterACQ 10. Advanced Engine Management (Australia) 22 Melrich Rd. Bayswater, Victoria Australia Phone: (+613) 9761 3161 fax: (+613) 9761 3162 email steve@xxx.au Prices include basic wiring loom & sensors with no PC required. Supports rotary, 4, 6, & 8 cylinder engines. a. Wolf2D EFI with built in user I/O US$660 b. Wold3D EFI+IGN with detachable user I/O US$1030 11. Emerald Cams Phone 0171 737 7114 UK Prices include software & wiring loom a. M3D Ign. control UK#365 inc. VAT b. Fuel injection & ignition system UK#435 inc. VAT Manufacturer #1 #2 #3 Model TEC II E6 74040A PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline yes yes no Inj. drivers 2 8 4 Additional drivers yes($) Seq. Inj. yes($) no yes($) Fuel Map yes yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 16 Prog. points/RPM 8 8 Total prog. points 64 256 Warm-up Map yes yes yes Idle control yes(GM ICM) no yes(GM ICM) Data logging yes($) yes yes Speed density yes yes yes Mass Air Flow yes($) no no EGO - Closed loop yes yes yes Gen. purpose output yes yes Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no yes yes Ign. map points 64 yes Detonation sensor yes no yes Manufacturer #6 #7 #11 Model Projection SDS M3D PC I/O no no yes Prog. offline no Inj. drivers n/a Additional drivers n/a Seq. Inj. n/a Fuel Map n/a # fuel maps by RPM n/a Prog. points/RPM n/a Total prog. points n/a Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a Data logging Speed density n/a Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes Ign. amp. needed no Ign. map points 192 Detonation sensor Manufacturer #8 #8 #8 Model Ign. Mgt. Clubmans Eng. Mgt. Sys. PC I/O yes yes yes Prog. offline Inj. drivers n/a 1 4 Additional drivers n/a yes (+#) yes (+#) Seq. Inj. n/a no yes Fuel Map n/a yes yes # fuel maps by RPM n/a 16 16 Prog. points/RPM n/a 24 24 Total prog. points n/a 384 384 Warm-up Map n/a Idle control n/a yes (?) Data logging yes yes yes Speed density n/a yes yes Mass Air Flow n/a EGO - Closed loop n/a no yes Gen. purpose output Ignition control yes yes yes Ign. amp. needed no no no Ign. map points 384 384 384 Detonation sensor no no yes Manufacturer #10 #10 Model Wolf2D Wold3D PC I/O no no Both have an LCD/keypad I/O Prog. offline yes yes Inj. drivers 5 5 Current limited Additional drivers 3 3 Seq. Inj. no no 2 bank Fuel Map yes yes # fuel maps by RPM 8 8 Prog. points/RPM 16 16 Total prog. points 128 128 Warm-up Map yes yes Idle control no no Data logging no no Speed density yes yes Mass Air Flow yes yes EGO - Closed loop no no can display EGO bargraph Gen. purpose output no no Ignition control no yes Ign. amp. needed n/a yes Ign. map points n/a ? Detonation sensor no no Orin Harding - Greensboro, NC ('74 MGB-GT - '79 MGB Roadster with Electromotive TEC II) ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:30:21 GMT Subject: MAP Questions... Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at full power!!!!! So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? What are the dimesions of you average MAP? What is the output type, and range? Analog Prefered of course. Lastly how exactly can it tell me how much air is flowing in the engine? Thanks.... Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: robert dingli Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:50:01 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: MAP Questions... Jim Staff asks, > Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I > checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at > full power!!!!! > So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next > bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? > What are the dimesions of you average MAP? hieght, width, etc> > What is the output type, and range? > Analog Prefered of course. Jim, have you considered a simple speed throttle system using throttle position and rpm to index a map? Throttle density systems are common on individual throttle body intakes especially for ported rotaries and agressive cam piston engines. I have seen many successful (usually racing) applications where MAP of MAF sensors are useless. You could adjust for ambient air pressure if you prefer. regards, Robert - -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** ------------------------------ From: Mark Boxsell Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 11:49:17 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: MAP Questions... At 10:30 PM 12/02/96 GMT, you wrote: > Well, now that I know a ton about MAF. I came to a great revolation. I >checked the minimum air flow specs and I'm not even close to the turn on flow at >full power!!!!! > So much for the power of a briggs and stratton. But a MAP sensor is the next >bet, or any Barametric Pressure Sensor. Does anyone know of any good ones? > What are the dimesions of you average MAP? hieght, width, etc> > What is the output type, and range? >Analog Prefered of course. > Lastly how exactly can it tell me how much air is flowing in the engine? > > Thanks.... > Jim Staff > > Jim, Sorry to disappoint you but a MAP sensor will not tell how much air is flowing into the engine. That's what you have to do!! regards, Mark Boxsell. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:51:54 GMT Subject: Re: MAP Questions... > Jim, have you considered a simple speed throttle system using throttle > position > and rpm to index a map? > > Throttle density systems are common on individual throttle body intakes > especially for ported rotaries and agressive cam piston engines. > > I have seen many successful (usually racing) applications where MAP of MAF > sensors are useless. You could adjust for ambient air pressure if you > prefer. Robert, The problem I have requires that it operate over very wide range of temperatures and altitudes. A TPS system would be very simple and I could do it with the scrap parts on my desk but it wouldn't be the best I could make it. Also I would have to have a butload of calibration curves for it based on the temp and altitude. I can check the temp no problem, I've got a small integrated 0¡C to 100¡C National Semiconductor temp sensor. But I need some type of correction for the pressure. This is what I know. The MAP sensor will give me a reading on the manifold vacume. I can correct this with a temp sensor to give the amount of air that the engine desires. I was wondering how I would go about using this sensor to determine how much air I need. Is a MAP system just mapped out? Like an array. Where temp is one demension, Vac is the second dimesnion and the array value is the fuel. Take this data for several points on the RPM curve then when the engine is running have it integrate the curve data and find the appropriate value for fuel? With an O2 sensor taking up the rear with corrections with are stored in some sort of temp table? Just a thought----- After all I'm using a PC (286 w/ 287) So I have all the horse power I need. ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:54:45 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Aus curcuit cellar availability.. Hi a few weeks ago I posted: > > in refernce to Eds CCi article(s), > > > I haven't been able to get hold of a copy in Australia. Has anyone locally > > found a source? > Yeah, even the tech bookshop/Mc Gills (melb) don't carry this from what > I've seen. The newsagent at Brentford Square, Forest Hill/Vermont in Melbourne sells curcuit cellar (@xxx.20 ea) Craig. ------------------------------ From: masmith Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:37:53 -0800 Subject: Re:EGA and pronnunciation - nothing useful....:-) At 05:21 PM 2/9/96 +1100, you wrote: >Something slightly off the topic to waste some bandwidth.... > >I am in the market ( depending on price :-)) for Exhaust gas analyser >that is capable of giving readings for CO, O2, HC and NOx. > >I am after people's opinions in regard to brands, quality and >pricing. Names of distributors or manufacturers would also be >appreciated. > > >Thanks, > >Angus > >angus@xxx.au > >P.S. As I'm from Australia, English is my second language. >Please excuse any grammatical errors. :-). > dont worry angus - you aussies may have crucified the pronounciation, ( and personally i like your pronounciation) but at least you get the bloody words right! you should hear some of these yanks try to speak english and how they complain about the non-native talkers who cannot.... ! :-) expatriate pommy bastard *that's englishman to you yanks. sorry about wasted bandwidth but couldn't resist Matt Smith masmith089@xxx.com Mailer Eudora 1.5.2 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #41 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".