DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 17 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 045 In this issue: Re: Looking for a low-cost Ignition analysis 'scope Car Craft EFI Special Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope 286 Vindication To the Briggs and Stratton lower (or lawner) boy Re: your mail Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: Briggs & Stratton EFI [none] Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: 286 Vindication Re: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope RE: Lawnmower Man Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope Re: MAP Questions... Re: your mail Re: your mail See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 07:53:37 EST Subject: Re: Looking for a low-cost Ignition analysis 'scope Steve wrote: >Hmmm ... so far we have clothes peg ignition analysers (Peter, should >that have a 'z' ?) , saw blade timing wheels and light bulb flow meters. >Thisis _real_ DIY. :-) Analyze...Analyse...A n a l y z e...A n a l y s e (Reminds me of an old 'Star Trek' episode) Depends on which side of the Atlantic (Pacific?) you're on... :) Cliff Ducharme / 'A wing and a prayer' _______[*]_______ b / d ------------------------------ From: jim_brady@xxx.gov Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 09:03:15 EST Subject: Car Craft EFI Special FYI... Car Craft has dedicated the March issue to EFI. They have information ranging from the basic throtle body to the explanation of every major component for multi-port fuel injection. Check it out! Jim Brady ------------------------------ From: ferguson@xxx.ca (Lloyd Ferguson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 09:05:22 EST Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope This is something I have been wanting to do for a while as I find it fastinating that you can assess an engine's condition just by looking at the spark waveforms. I have tried he approach of using a "Lab" scope with the inductive pickup from my timing ligt for trigger and a piece of metal over the coil in the middle of the GM HEI distributor (this is the way the Heathkit analyser works as well as other prfessional units I have seen). The interfacing is not a problem, where I ran into problems is that the repitition rate of the signals from the engine are so slow at idle that the scope does not have enough persistance to keep the display on the screen. When I did this (about 10 years ago) I used a Tek 465 100Mhz scope maybe a lesser scope would be better but I doubt it because the signal is pretty slow (600 RPM = 10 RPS /2 = 5 triggers per second). As for the calibration, I purchased a manual for the Heathkit unit when I was thinking about this and they clamped the pickup around the high-voltage lead to the CRT for calibaration, not very usable on another unit. I was going to address this if and when I got it working. I have been milling around an idea of trying a cheap sound-blaster type card with an analog input to digitize the signal and then using one of the graphical audio editing packages to display it (perhaps doing the whole thing on an old 286) any comments? Lloyd Ferguson CBC Engineering 7925 Cote St-Luc Rd Montreal, Quebec Canada Tel: (514) 485-5340 Fax: (514) 485-5364 Email: ferguson@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:22:06 -0500 Subject: 286 Vindication Item Subject: Meddelandetext > When I get it all together I'll post it on the web Page... Besides I'm going >to use a MPX2200, A motorola pressure sensor rated for 200KPA, with .2mV per >KPA, it has thermal recalibration, and as a plus It has differential input so >that the values stay pretty good across the spectrum. I op amp it so that It's >span is 2V with an offset of .25V, it's great!!!! Hello! Seemes as you are going to do something that I have already done when reading MAP. Warning; is it a MPX2200DP? It reads differential pressures. You need absolute pressure. I had to use the MPX200AP thats absolute w/o temp compensation. Since Motorola did'nt have any compensated one year ago. I use turbo press up to 1,5 bar but when calibrating the MPX200 it streched it's linear area 1 bar over the specified so it's still useable. The temp comp wont be any big problem i think. When i calculated on it it follows the compensation for airtemp vs density that you anyhow must do in your software (or maby in hardware is possible to of course), so its near to automatic, but maby a bit slow! That is if you apply inucted airtemp to the MAP sensor of course (how that is done???). Tell me how you intend to dampen the MAP signal? Mecanical or electronical, thats one of my problems. Keep up good work, please tell me if its a new AP on the market! Tommy Palm tommy.palm@xxx.se Sweden > > ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:23:19 -0500 Subject: To the Briggs and Stratton lower (or lawner) boy Item Subject: Meddelandetext >Engine : Briggs & stratton 3HP, 4 cycle single cylinder (Wow huh?) >I could use a lot of help here. If there is any specific or general stuff you >know I'd like to hear it. I do believe that on the market somewhere there has t I've folowed your questions and have had same ideas on small engines just for fun to test my EFI controlls. But waited for the question were in h_ll (or possably heaven) did you find an injector small enogh?? Maby I missed that letter. I guess you want an idle also of say 0.1-0.2 hp. As you've maby seen of my previous letters pulstimes under 2 ms should be avioded on most injectors if you don't want extra trouble! Tommy tommy.palm@xxx.se ------------------------------ From: Corey Cole Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:13:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: your mail On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, John G. Napoli wrote: [warning cut out] > > > > COMPUTER VIRUS > > > > There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet. If > > you receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times," DO > > NOT read the message, DELETE it immediately. Please read the messages > > below. > > I hate to rain on anyone's parade, or start a flame war, but I've seen this warning again and again. It looks like someone who decided to create a virus but did not have the technical knowledge cooked this scheme up. This type of thing is really impossible (if it wasn't, you'd already see more than just this one). On another note....Hi, I'm new to the group. I'm looking to put together an EFI system for my Skylark to run either a 455 naturally aspirated or a 340 V-8 with turbocharger. Later, Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman ------------------------------ From: John T Stein Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:00:24 ET Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope ferguson@xxx.ca (Lloyd Ferguson) wrote: > This is something I have been wanting to do for a while as I find it > fastinating that you can assess an engine's condition just by looking at > the spark waveforms. > > I have tried he approach of using a "Lab" scope with the inductive pickup > from my timing ligt for trigger and a piece of metal over the coil in the > middle of the GM HEI distributor (this is the way the Heathkit analyser > works as well as other prfessional units I have seen). The interfacing is > not a problem, where I ran into problems is that the repitition rate of the > signals from the engine are so slow at idle that the scope does not have > enough persistance to keep the display on the screen. When I did this > (about 10 years ago) I used a Tek 465 100Mhz scope maybe a lesser scope > would be better but I doubt it because the signal is pretty slow (600 RPM = > 10 RPS /2 = 5 triggers per second). > > As for the calibration, I purchased a manual for the Heathkit unit when I > was thinking about this and they clamped the pickup around the high-voltage > lead to the CRT for calibaration, not very usable on another unit. I was > going to address this if and when I got it working. > Sometime in the distant past Tektronix published a soft-cover book discussing the use of oscilloscopes (theirs, of course) for the analysis of internal combustion engines. If I remember correctly it had a good treatment of ignition waveform interpretation. You may be able to get a copy from a local Tek rep. It was part of a very good series of 'scope-related texts they had. > I have been milling around an idea of trying a cheap sound-blaster type > card with an analog input to digitize the signal and then using one of the > graphical audio editing packages to display it (perhaps doing the whole > thing on an old 286) any comments? A number of firms; e.g. Keithly, MetraByte, National Instruments make relatively inexpensive analog I/O cards for the PC. They usually come with the necessary "c" and/or BASIC drivers. This would seem to be a very flexible solution to getting the date into the computer in a form ready for analysis John. ------------------------------ From: neville@xxx.COM (Neville Newman) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:16:33 -0800 Subject: Re: i decided when i sent the original message that i wouldn't go into details. The example from last summer involved MS Word documents, but the approach is a very generalizable one. ------------------------------ From: "Patrick C. Mancuso" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:03:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope John T Stein wrote: > ferguson@xxx.ca (Lloyd Ferguson) wrote: > > signals from the engine are so slow at idle that the scope does not have > > enough persistance to keep the display on the screen. When I did this > > (about 10 years ago) I used a Tek 465 100Mhz scope maybe a lesser scope > > would be better but I doubt it because the signal is pretty slow (600 RPM = > > 10 RPS /2 = 5 triggers per second). ... > A number of firms; e.g. Keithly, MetraByte, National Instruments make > relatively inexpensive analog I/O cards for the PC. They usually > come with the necessary "c" and/or BASIC drivers. This would seem to > be a very flexible solution to getting the date into the computer in > a form ready for analysis > > John. Another possibility: I saw in a Radio Shack (awright, laugh) flyer a few weeks ago an ad for a DVM with an RS232 interface. I just glanced at the ad, but for $129 you got the DVM, a 9-pin RS232 cable to connect to it, and some windows software to go with it. Judging by the picture in the ad, it looked to be able to display a 'persistent' trace. Heck, their datastream can't be that tough, write your own display routines if the supplied software won't do it for you. Instant storage scope. Anyone know the specs on these DVMs (what the data rate is, how fast they react to input changes, who really makes them, etc...)?? Pat Mancuso - -- patman@xxx.net -- '64 Nova SS -- Stratham, NH "Space is curved. That or my car pulls to the left." ------------------------------ From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:47:18 EST Subject: Re: Briggs & Stratton EFI Tommy Palm wrote: >I've folowed your questions and have had same ideas on small engines just for >fun to test my EFI controlls. But waited for the question were in h_ll (or >possably heaven) did you find an injector small enogh?? Maby I missed that >letter. I guess you want an idle also of say 0.1-0.2 hp. As you've maby seen of >my previous letters pulstimes under 2 ms should be avioded on most injectors if >you don't want extra trouble! I'm at the point on my B&S system to measure the flow rate of an injector I acquired (don't recall the exact part number, but it's a Ford/Chrysler port injector) and develop the pulse width values for an open loop algorithm. Ballpark fuel flow rates for the B&S are from 2 lb/Hr idle to 5 lb/Hr WOT - If reducing the fuel rail pressure isn't enough to obtain reasonable pulse widths without compromising the injector spray pattern for a 1" intake port, then I have a problem too. Cliff Ducharme 'A wing and a Prayer' / _______[*]_______ b / d ------------------------------ From: Andrew Huang Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:15:25 -0700 Subject: [none] In regards to John Napoli's message, the beginning of which is below, let me note that the virus is the message itself. That is to say, the whole thing is a hoax. Please don't forward it anywhere. I've seen it from three sources already (the first was about a year ago, so it's pretty stale) and there isn't a need to see it again. I can assure you that there is no such thing as an "nth complexity infinite binary loop". In a sense this is a real virus. How it works is that you send the message to somebody or a mailing list and then they send it to everybody they know, and pretty soon it's wandering around the world relentlessly. - -andy >I received this message this morning from a responsible colleauge who >stressed that it is not a joke and is to be taken seriously. > >This is the first I have heard of this problem. However, due to the >potential I am forwarding this information for your review. >>Beware ! >>_______________________ >> >> >> COMPUTER VIRUS ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:03:54 +0000 Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope > This is something I have been wanting to do for a while as I find it > fastinating that you can assess an engine's condition just by looking at > the spark On the secondary side, it'd probably have to be inductive, but I saw an article in Popular Electronics long ago, (This was back in the seventies.) that hooked up to the primary side. It had a voltage divider made of a few resistors, followed by a zener to clip the kickback peak and possibly a capacitor or two. To make it look like what you see on a car scope, you had to invert the image. - --- David Parrish Don't touch - YEOWWWW!!!! - - that wire... ------------------------------ From: walter@xxx.com (thomas walter x5955) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 14:15:03 CST Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope > Anyone know the specs on these DVMs (what the data rate is, how > fast they react to input changes, who really makes them, etc...)?? Used to be almost all the 3 1/2 digit DVMS had the Intersil (now Harris) IC in them. Conversion times were around 100ms. Quick check of my Digikey catalog didn't show the 7116?? (not 100% sure on that number, hence why I went to check). It does, oddly enough show a TelCom Semiconductors Inc device listing a TC7116 3 1/2 digit LD chip for $5.85. Seem to recall Intersil sold them for about $20, so if it is pin compatible not a bad deal at all! Tom Walter Austin, TX. ------------------------------ From: Mark Boxsell Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 07:51:41 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: 286 Vindication At 10:22 AM 16/02/96 -0500, you wrote: >Item Subject: Meddelandetext >> When I get it all together I'll post it on the web Page... Besides I'm going > >>to use a MPX2200, A motorola pressure sensor rated for 200KPA, with .2mV per >>KPA, it has thermal recalibration, and as a plus It has differential input so >>that the values stay pretty good across the spectrum. I op amp it so that It's > >>span is 2V with an offset of .25V, it's great!!!! > >Hello! > >Seemes as you are going to do something that I have already done when reading >MAP. >Warning; is it a MPX2200DP? It reads differential pressures. You need absolute >pressure. I had to use the MPX200AP thats absolute w/o temp compensation. Since >Motorola did'nt have any compensated one year ago. I use turbo press up to 1,5 >bar but when calibrating the MPX200 it streched it's linear area 1 bar over the >specified so it's still useable. The temp comp wont be any big problem i think. >When i calculated on it it follows the compensation for airtemp vs density that >you anyhow must do in your software (or maby in hardware is possible to of >course), so its near to automatic, but maby a bit slow! That is if you apply >inucted airtemp to the MAP sensor of course (how that is done???). Tell me how >you intend to dampen the MAP signal? Mecanical or electronical, thats one of my >problems. > >Keep up good work, please tell me if its a new AP on the market! > >Tommy Palm >tommy.palm@xxx.se >Sweden >> >> > If you are not going up and down mountains all day a differential sensor will work fine. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. ------------------------------ From: sandy ganz Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:27:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Enough of the virus crap, this isn't www.virus.com, or www.norelated.com or is it. An no I am not using a spellling checker. Baack to the EFI related subjects at hand... ************************************** Name: sandy ganz E-mail: sandyg@xxx.com (sandy ganz) * __ \ / / ( / \/ \/ / __) / /\ * Machine: Bullwinkle ************************************** ------------------------------ From: Mark Boxsell Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 07:52:12 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope > >I have been milling around an idea of trying a cheap sound-blaster type >card with an analog input to digitize the signal and then using one of the >graphical audio editing packages to display it (perhaps doing the whole >thing on an old 286) any comments? > >Lloyd Ferguson >CBC Engineering >7925 Cote St-Luc Rd >Montreal, Quebec Canada >Tel: (514) 485-5340 >Fax: (514) 485-5364 >Email: ferguson@xxx.ca > > > Lloyd, Yes! ,This is exactly what I was wondering maybe we all have a digital storage cro in our PC's after all! Has anyone out there seen any articles on this, I think the 'line in' accepts 0 - 250mV so you would have to put a front end of some kind on the thing. Whoever works out a kit for this will make a fortune. I don't have time at the moment so someone else will have to do it! regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. ------------------------------ From: wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 17:34:13 EST Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope >A number of firms; e.g. Keithly, MetraByte, National Instruments make >relatively inexpensive analog I/O cards for the PC. They usually >come with the necessary "c" and/or BASIC drivers. I think the price of Keithly and National Instruments cards are a bit high for the DIYer. Another company that we have dealt with quite a bit that offers less expensive multi-function I/O cards is: MCSI (Micro computer specialist, inc.) 2598-g Fortune way Vista CA 92083 (619) 598-2177 They offer several plug in data acquisition cards for PCs. There model ACL-711B has 8 single ended 12-bit analog inputs, several software programmable input ranges, one 12-bit analog output, 16 digital inputs, 16 digital outputs, and some timers for $172US (single quantity). There is a slightly better model ACL-812PG that we have used at our facility for a number of data acquisition projects that costs $249US (single quantity). It will operate up to 90kHz, has 16 12-bit analog inputs and two 12-bit analog outputs. One application I have used an 812 on was to capture engine data (combustion pressures) and display the data in a "scope" format. They also have several other cards, some that are only digital input or output, isolated digital IO, analog output, timer cards (using the AMD am9513 chip; much better than an 8253 or 8254), etc. They also have daughter boards which can amplify low level signals, such as thermocouples for temperature measurement or strain gages for force measurement. They also include with their cards software that can be used by any C or Pascal programmer. Will McGonegal Electrical Engineer Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Kent Sullivan Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:15:07 -0800 Subject: RE: Amen! - --Kent >---------- >From: Andrew Huang[SMTP:ajh@xxx.edu] >Sent: Friday, February 16, 1996 11:15 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > >In regards to John Napoli's message, the beginning of which is below, >let me note that the virus is the message itself. That is to say, the >whole thing is a hoax. Please don't forward it anywhere. I've seen >it from three sources already (the first was about a year ago, so it's >pretty stale) and there isn't a need to see it again. I can assure >you that there is no such thing as an "nth complexity infinite binary >loop". > >In a sense this is a real virus. How it works is that you send the >message to somebody or a mailing list and then they send it to >everybody they know, and pretty soon it's wandering around the world >relentlessly. > >-andy > >>I received this message this morning from a responsible colleauge who >>stressed that it is not a joke and is to be taken seriously. >> >>This is the first I have heard of this problem. However, due to the >>potential I am forwarding this information for your review. > >>>Beware ! >>>_______________________ >>> >>> >>> COMPUTER VIRUS > ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 15:34:15 MDT Subject: Lawnmower Man > When I get it all together I'll post it on the web Page... Besides I'm going > to use a MPX2200, A motorola pressure sensor rated for 200KPA, with .2mV per > KPA, it has thermal recalibration, and as a plus It has differential input so > that the values stay pretty good across the spectrum. I op amp it so that It's > span is 2V with an offset of .25V, it's great!!!! I've used this sensor, (although not as a MAP sensor) it works great. If you have the differential version, you can use it just like an absolute sensor by reversing the inputs and applying vacuum to the pressure port, and leaving the vacuum port open to the atmosphere. This may also require reversing the inputs to your opamp to get the right direction of signal. (increasing vacuum, decreasing voltage). The differential version is much easier to get than the absolute. The MPX2200 has been available for some time now, and the temp comp is nice... Forget about trying to compensate an MPX200 yourself, it is very difficult and not very accurate at best... On the subject of opamps, try the AMP04 from Analog Devices. It's a true instrumentation amp, single supply, and almost made for the MPX series transducers. This chip, and one resistor, is all you need for gains of up to 1000. Add another resistor to offset the bridge a little and you've got a .5V - 4.5V output. Add a cap and you've got a first order lopass filter as well. Full signal conditioner with 4 parts! As far as the MAP filtering goes, I'd combine 3 methods to get a nice, clean signal: 1. Put an orifice and a small reservoir between the sensor and the manifold. You'll have to experiment with orifice size to get a good compromise between response time and filtering. For the reservoir, just use a small disposable filter, such as an inline gasoline filter. This will give you a small volume to dampen pressure pulses. Place the orifice between the filter and the manifold, and the pressure sensor after the filter. This gives you the pneumatic equivalent of an RC network, the orifice is the R, and the volume is the C... 2. Put some filtering in the electronics. Set a corner frequency just below where you have the most noise, ie at idle speed. Just use an RC network, or if you want to get fancy, a 2nd order lopass active filter. This will also take out most of the electrical interference from ignition, etc. 3. Oversample the hell out of the analog signal, and do some digital filtering of the data from the A/D converter. Add up a bunch of samples and divide the result by the number of samples. This will give you a nice, low frequency averaging to the signal. You can easily adjust the number of samples to get whatever averaging you want. Cascade two averaging routines to get a second order system... I recently did a similar project with nearly the same type of problems you would find in your MAP application, and the combination of the 3 types of filtering gave me the best results... regards dn - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:45:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Looking for low-cost ignition analysis 'scope At 09:05 AM 2/16/96 EST, Lloyd Ferguson wrote: >I have been milling around an idea of trying a cheap sound-blaster type >card with an analog input to digitize the signal and then using one of the >graphical audio editing packages to display it (perhaps doing the whole >thing on an old 286) any comments? Sounds interesting. Has any one tried the $99.00 Radio Shack probe scope with the LCD display and RS232 interface? Sounds too good to be true. I tried to order one a while ago and was told "It's not available." Sound off gentlemen! thanks, GMD ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 02:48:46 GMT Subject: Re: MAP Questions... These are the different system that I could employ for my single cylinder 3.5 HP Briggs & Stratton engine Could you please tell me what system you prefer and what you think would be best. 1. Easy and fast II I use a throttle position sensor and a temp sensor I would generate the fuel array. I would keep the O2 sensor for correction with some kind of corrrection formula--unknown. Pros : Very simple and cheap. Could build really fast and get to the testing phase. Cons : Not very acurate, would need to run the engine at various temps to get all the kinks worked out. I don't know how to make a Throttle Position Sensor, But I'm sure somebody here know or I could find it out god knows I've found out impossible stuff already. 2. Faster and even easier... Just use throttle position to make an array, with an O2 sensor to make up for the massive problems I'm going to have with temp and pressure. 3. Die hard [Current Position] Use a Pressure sensor, temp sensor, throttle position sensor, and O2 sensor. So I can make killer calculations on the effects of the ouside world. I have problems calculating the air flow because I have no Volumetric efficiency numbers, so I have 2 unknowns in the PV=mRTe equation. The hardware is a major pain in the ass!!!!!! Pros : My lasting honor as a high school electrical enineer would be monstorous, and I would live forever! It would work damn well. And most likely win me money through the Duracell project scholarship! Cons : I have no clue how to do some things. Like the Air Mass calculation, and make a TPS. I pray to god my op amp thing works or i'll kill myself, along with a relatively expensive MPX2200 sensor. 4. Rap my lips around the barrel and my toe around the trigger.... Opps not really an option but it would save me from this hard work!!! Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: Mitsu16v@xxx.com Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:36:55 -0500 Subject: Re: your mail In a message dated 96-02-16 12:24:50 EST, you write: >On another note....Hi, I'm new to the group. I'm looking to put together >an EFI system for my Skylark to run either a 455 naturally aspirated or a 340 >V-8 with turbocharger. > > YOW!!! That's a LOT of engine for that car!!!... errr. what are your thoughts about shoehorning a 302 into an Eclipse??? ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:39:51 -0800 Subject: Re: your mail what year skylark? ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #45 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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