DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 22 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 050 In this issue: Re: Intake runner sizing.. Re: MPX2200 Re: Looking for DAC and w2w (for data acq project) Re: Real world TPI hp gains Re: Real world TPI hp gains Re: Intake runner sizing.. Re: Intake runner sizing.. Re: Intake runner sizing.. Re: Intake runner sizing.. Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) RE: Real world TPI hp gains RE: Real world TPI hp gains Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) Re: Intake runner sizing.. Bill Sarkozy Re: Ford 2.3 litre motor Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? Re[2]: Real world TPI hp gains Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication)] Turbo Lag See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Graydon D. Stuckey" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:56:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Craig Pugsley wrote: > > Personally, I think those 6-port valves are more restrictive than > > they are worth. I would take them out, and fab up variable length intake > > runners. Then you can tune all the runners for all rpm ranges. > > Not a 6 port, it's a 4 port (R5?? housings) - Japanese spec engine. > > Variable intake length would be fun - could you have the butterflys in a > fixed position and use variable length trumpets, or do you mean variable > length by changing it with several butterflys to turn on/off extra > tubing. Hmm.. so if I had 4 feet of tube would the torque peak be at > idle?? :-) (It's an automatic). Craig, I would get rid of the butterflies entirely, and vay the tuning by changing the length of the runners. Later, Graydon D. Stuckey graydon@xxx.edu Flint, Michigan USA '86 Audi 5000 CS Turbo Quattro, GDS Racing Stage II '85 Mazda RX7 GS 12A-leaning-towards-a-13B-soon ------------------------------ From: Jari Porhio Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:29:27 +0200 (EET) Subject: Re: MPX2200 > Cliff Ducharme wrote: > > > Any more info on the Motorola pressure sensor (price, sources, etc) > > would be appreciated. I paid ~$50 for an MPX4250D here in Finland (see http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/~eppu/dev/specs/MPX4250D.html). It's a good device, do yourself a favour and get a signal conditioned and compensated sensor (4xxx and 5xxx -series I think). What comes to sources, I used my friendly local component supplier, don't you all do like this? ;) dn wrote: > inputs with no further ado... This one is available either absolute (MPX5100A) > or differential (MPX5100D), 0-15 PSI only, and would be a bit more expensive I think there are several sensors, which are not mentioned anywhere yet. My 2.5 bar differential one wasn't, I got it by accident. ____________________________________________________________________________ Jari Porhio eppu@xxx.fi : No offence :) ------------------------------ From: Andrew H Voss/DELCO Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:25:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Looking for DAC and w2w (for data acq project) unsuscribe DIY_EFI end ------------------------------ From: jzalesny@xxx.com (JimZ -92' AWD Tsi ) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 07:39:47 -0800 Subject: Re: Real world TPI hp gains You wrote: > >Decreasing inlet air temp(and intake manifold temp) will increase horsepower >with no other changes, assuming the ECM is allowed to adjust accordingly. >Has any one dyno tested a '89 350 TPI engine and then changed only the >thermostat (195 to 150) and removed the hot coolant going to the throttle >body to see the net 'real world' torque increase? >GMD On a a large number of EFI vehicles (if equipped)the ECU will never switch over to closed loop mode due to the low coolant temp. The bypassing of the throttle body will work and give more power. JimZ ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:43:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Real world TPI hp gains > An electronic controlled thermostat > could allow street roders to have the cake and eat it too... if the gain is > substantial enough. How about removing the thermostat entirely, and replacing the water pump with an electric pump. This it would be a simple matter of controlling the power to the pump to change the engine coolant temperature. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Corey Cole Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:41:41 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Craig Pugsley wrote: > Hi, > > A semi-efi qn on a forthcoming carb-efi conversion.. > > I have a Mazda 13B street port that I am planning to EFI, and am > wondering about intake runner length/diameter characteristics for max > torque/max power. > > Is it true that the longer a runner the lower in RPM the torque peak > will be? If that's the case should the primarys be long and the > secondarys short? > I have a QuattroPro spreadsheet that calculates at what RPM the peak will occur, but I think we may have a problem applying it to a rotary...It requires things like Bore, Stroke, CR, etc. I think in general, the longer pipe will resonate at lower frequencies and a smaller pipe at high frequencies (at least it's that way on a recip). I'll see if I can't find a source that maybe (big maybe) converts the equations into something useable by rotaries. Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman ------------------------------ From: "Kenneth C. King" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:20:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Corey Cole wrote: [ munch ] > I have a QuattroPro spreadsheet that calculates at what RPM the peak will greetings: could you post the equations (or make the file available on ftp)? later, kc ------------------------------ From: jsturs@xxx.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:49:24 -0100 Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. > > Variable intake length would be fun - could you have the butterflys in a > fixed position and use variable length trumpets, or do you mean variable > length by changing it with several butterflys to turn on/off extra > tubing. Hmm.. so if I had 4 feet of tube would the torque peak be at > idle?? :-) (It's an automatic). this sounds like a great subject for a project. Let's see, sliding tubes driven by a servo motor linked to rpm sensing... hmmm might work, if only I could work out how to fit all that plumbing under the hood. Later, Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@xxx.nl ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:12:22 EST Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. ~ ~ > ~ > Variable intake length would be fun - could you have the butterflys in a ~ > fixed position and use variable length trumpets, or do you mean variable ~ > length by changing it with several butterflys to turn on/off extra ~ > tubing. Hmm.. so if I had 4 feet of tube would the torque peak be at ~ > idle?? :-) (It's an automatic). ~ ~ ~ I have the following equations for computing harmonic frequencies, which I obtained from a SuperFlow flow bench manual: In the following, L = runner length in inches.... 2nd harmonic ranges from 117480/L to 142560/L, with a pulse strength of 10 percent. 3rd harmonic ranges from 88270/L to 100880/L, with a pulse strength of 7 percent. 4th harmonic ranges from 68820/L to 76960/L, with a pulse strength of 4 percent. I am sure these are empirically-derived, so be warned.................. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:14:46 -0500 Subject: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) >Isn't it true that for a speed density efi system with an _absolute_ MAP >sensor, then altitude compensation is not needed? For example, if you >changed altitude, the barometric pressure changes, which changes the >pressure in the manifold, which the MAP sensor directly measures. > Temperature (air density) compensation is still needed. > >Now for a efi system using the "trap door" air flow meter, I believe >altitude compensation is needed. In addition to temperature compensation. > >Bryan Zublin >bzublin@xxx.com > I certannly agree to this, I got very confused about the double absolute statement earlier. Tommy ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:42:31 -0600 Subject: RE: Real world TPI hp gains - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007B.99015780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure that removing the coolant line from the intake would buy = you anything. On the Fords (of which I'm more familiar) this was a = popular thing to do awhile back. However it was quickly realized that = the "hot" water was being used to cool a hotter area of the intake - the = EGR. I don't know about the Chevies as much as the Fords but it seems to = me that the factory wouldn't heat the intake - that they'd be using = something like that to cool the intake. Do you have EGR - now there's a = potential source of heat! As for running too cold - tolerances change with temp. A cold engine = doesn't atomize the fuel as well (I'm told) and who knows what other = reasons. Since what you really want is cool intake temps why not make = sure the air doesn't stay in the intake long enough to heat up? At WOT = on a decent day and with my intercooler my air temp going into the motor = has been darn close to ambient, I can't get any better than that and = this was with 8-10lbs of boost! I do need to get a really accurate gauge = though - I'm not sure I believe the DFI datalog... - ---------- >From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@xxx.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 1996 7:19 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Cc: IMD1@xxx.com Subject: Real world TPI hp gains Decreasing inlet air temp(and intake manifold temp) will increase = horsepower with no other changes, assuming the ECM is allowed to adjust = accordingly. Has any one dyno tested a '89 350 TPI engine and then changed only the thermostat (195 to 150) and removed the hot coolant going to the = throttle body to see the net 'real world' torque increase? What do you guys = think about an electronic controlled thermostat on FI cars? Dial it low for = fun in the sun power. Dial it high when Jack frost is biting your head off. = =20 It's my understanding that, too low of an engine temp is bad for the = engine (long term). Higher engine temps give better fuel economy and other desirable characteristics for every day driving. An electronic controlled = thermostat could allow street roders to have the cake and eat it too... if the gain = is substantial enough.=20 GMD - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007B.99015780 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiEWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABABwAAABSRTogUmVhbCB3b3JsZCBUUEkgaHAgZ2FpbnMA9AgBBYADAA4AAADMBwIAFQAQACoA HwADAEYBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcCABUAEAAkABAAAwAxAQEJgAEAIQAAAEFEQkZFNjA0NkQ2Q0NGMTE5 NUYyNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwABIHAQOQBgBACAAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMA NgAAAAAAQAA5ACD+2eKtALsBHgBwAAEAAAAcAAAAUkU6IFJlYWwgd29ybGQgVFBJIGhwIGdhaW5z AAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7AK3i2QTmv65sbRHPlfJERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAA HgAfDAEAAAAMAAAASlZQQFFTSS5DT00AAwAGEDYtKoIDAAcQhwYAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAElNTk9U U1VSRVRIQVRSRU1PVklOR1RIRUNPT0xBTlRMSU5FRlJPTVRIRUlOVEFLRVdPVUxEQlVZWU9VQU5Z VEhJTkdPTlRIRUZPUkRTKE9GV0hJQ0hJTU1PUkVGQU1JTElBUikAAAAAAgEJEAEAAADMBgAAyAYA AHQLAABMWkZ1lh1U6v8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQSzBTFfQqAiwjPCdk7F58yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwMy8UUAsKFWIM AWMAQCBJoCdtIG5vBUBzCHB4ZSB0EYAFQBegBGB2/QuAZx1BHTAFoAbwAHAFQH5sC4AdMANSHiML gAGQawUdMHcIYGxkIGJ1qHkgeQhgIABweR1QsR3xLiBPA6AeMkYFsOJkBCAob2YgMCFgEXDHHHME YB0hZmFtAxAHMFxyKR1BBAAgMGEEIGHwIHBvcCBgCsEhUx1AqG8gZCYAYSLRbB0wCmIA0GshoEhv d2WedgSQH8AFQCSycXUi8JxrbCDAF6AHQGl6CYDTHUQeMiJoHNAiJKET0NMFwCSyYmUd8nURsCkB fyYAHnIk4SnBKjIKwCigIIsioR+ZLR4jRUdSIaDSSSYRbicFQGscwAfg9wGgCGApVEMeQB3gB5Ek wfxtdSMBJMEh+CCgBUAnoX8RsBPgMNEmAAeAKRgjwGP9JfByIMAgQy6SHkApRS05eSlEeScggR0w KxAd8nP/A3ARwCWjHvAgESkkK3UfmP0hoEQmACDiEYAnYC3yLZH3LuIeMRegJyTUE9ACMAcxuzbB CHBjHTAioTRiIQqFHQqFQQQgAhAFwHJ1bv8DACXDK3IgcS2hBvAEkABw/zwwBCARcRqgICEnoCMQ E9HacCGgQT7kCfBnHwImIP8HkC6SHXADcCjRMwQKUCvBtySRQ3ADICgcgj9hZCRA/wBwIIAi0CYA LtIkkR1iHNDfOsEogjbQAIAhoFMLgDwx/0WzIOIokihhJLAewSSBK5P/H9VA0kWSIMAcwgDAIBEd Bd8dMAtwBcBCFhPAYSDAC4DfH4oXMB4BCfAIYGdAsSYAMTRjdXA/FLAFQFdP/lQssAOgJPAFgTuB JhBMMftE00CSbUxCKjEecidxUMHjS1JA0iBnbx3yH9EmAP8eMgRgM4E5sSqSCfBP4QSh3mMXMBGw JeIj0GIIkAIw+iwuQWMAcC6hQFBCcSEw/yqhLCMdUSHSHXFE0iRnQIPkOC0awGxiBCAioQbg/1TA PMAuQxywCeArQ1ZDR9bdANBjCHAqIVJgYU3AHTL/TbMtoByLLlAqsB7wJ1EeI9xERi5RHXAHQG8h kF+QRzzsCvQe8DE4MALRaXlZADQ0DfAM0GGjC1kx/jYKoANgE9AzcC2QY8cKh9diewwwY0ZGA2E6 ZM5jRrEMgiBHZQWwQFFNOTEDC3AmkHlbU01UUOA6Z21kQGNxC4ACEPIuBaBtXWRvZX0GYAIwa2av Z7tUClBzT/FVoEZ8ZWI+MArAIMAB0FWgMUA5OTYgNzpwYCDMUE1q72V9VG9tL2e7kGRpeV8NwGlA BaCTIGADcGIuQaEubyFgnG8tTBET0HYQZHVxLxllfUNjc09nu0lNRHQxQDIwbmqSd09r/nXcYmpj gXlvZ7tSKKEgMW5yIHFpsC5QaFJRC3Fz81/PYNMzNmJHFFEL8mNGfkQFkEZiUpQmkEJxUfUo/0TS H9UDgQaQPwJA0iRAA/D/Q/FHAUZiHTApwBGhJRAnQL5yCoVAgxzARfVAFHNVoI8kwB0AI+AeBUVD TUiSx0gBJzErQ2FkaisQQnHfW8AiQR3xKGBftkgkwlaR+wIgQfF5ikET0BPBIIAk8MQnOHDgMzUw gPNBpf9X1FQhQBQggAIgKGEeMQqFXzqyBGB2siKAcGA1JeIx/5DgRLQdoyjziMIFQB52UnT3UvUd UGNRdCaQCoUG4I+w3yXiMgEeIx8QBUAnKJKAlP4nJeETYApQiEdOoE7gHWK7JiEg4mcgsDDSC4Br CoW/LyQDkUNwY4EDYAMAYx5h/wIwA2BD8JXUk/ZPMV7xVeD7EaCbwUQ7siehjME940NQ/m4KhUxl HQADoIkzIaChJ+8hYE3RItBUIUom0R8yjZH/JIFVUDugHgEg4VOhKKCSsecN0KPRPOxJdDsBUME+ QP8EgUwRROAd9B1wVaA+sqGy/yKhniJBtFIjpdKm4T3yHjKbQaQKhShNQyoxbSmOd/+kkSdxqvkE IEHAOeFWxUNT/wWRHMBRskThRgQNsACQP6D/AmCTRhFyM2EGcRPAIvA91HcnUiDAT/JkBRAd4qPR Qf+eP59PsqYgU4yjTAEJ0R2B/wRyMkM5wx4zIAJE0jRyJ6H/PrFfkR/ALNSBckiRCoUdAL9ZQKkx O6NNlCGgPOxHe1C/POyBz4Lfg+wKhRbBAMQwAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzBgCP0CrQC7AUAA CDBgCP0CrQC7AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAEsE= - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007B.99015780-- ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:58:11 -0600 Subject: RE: Real world TPI hp gains - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007D.C90E7320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wouldn't doing this result in hotspots in the engine? I was under the = impression that it was important that water always flowed in the engine = and that you had to make sure that the water didn't flow too quickly or = too slowly. Remember - the temp sensor only measures the water temp at = the point where the sensor is placed... - ---------- >From: Michael F. Sargent[SMTP:MSargent@xxx.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 1996 9:43 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Real world TPI hp gains > An electronic controlled thermostat > could allow street roders to have the cake and eat it too... if the = gain is > substantial enough.=20 How about removing the thermostat entirely, and replacing the water pump = with an electric pump. This it would be a simple matter of controlling the = power to the pump to change the engine coolant temperature. Mike +------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: = 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: = 1(613)721-1278 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------= - --+ - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007D.C90E7320 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgwWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AFNNVFAAZGl5X2VmaUBj b3Vsb21iLmVuZy5vaGlvLXN0YXRlLmVkdQAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACMA AABkaXlfZWZpQGNvdWxvbWIuZW5nLm9oaW8tc3RhdGUuZWR1AAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAlAAAAJ2RpeV9lZmlAY291bG9tYi5lbmcub2hpby1zdGF0ZS5lZHUnAAAAAAIBCzABAAAA KAAAAFNNVFA6RElZX0VGSUBDT1VMT01CLkVORy5PSElPLVNUQVRFLkVEVQADAAA5AAAAAAsAQDoB AAAAAgH2DwEAAAAEAAAAAAAAA9xNAQiABwAYAAAASVBNLk1pY3Jvc29mdCBNYWlsLk5vdGUAMQgB BIABABwAAABSRTogUmVhbCB3b3JsZCBUUEkgaHAgZ2FpbnMA9AgBBYADAA4AAADMBwIAFQAQADoA CwADAEIBASCAAwAOAAAAzAcCABUAEAA4ACQAAwBZAQEJgAEAIQAAAEI1QkZFNjA0NkQ2Q0NGMTE5 NUYyNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAAQHAQOQBgB4BQAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMA NgAAAAAAQAA5AKB43xKwALsBHgBwAAEAAAAcAAAAUkU6IFJlYWwgd29ybGQgVFBJIGhwIGdhaW5z AAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG7ALAS3wTmv7ZsbRHPlfJERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAA HgAfDAEAAAAMAAAASlZQQFFTSS5DT00AAwAGEOCPJU8DAAcQqwMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFdPVUxE TlRET0lOR1RISVNSRVNVTFRJTkhPVFNQT1RTSU5USEVFTkdJTkU/SVdBU1VOREVSVEhFSU1QUkVT U0lPTlRIQVRJVFdBU0lNUE9SVEFOVFRIQVRXQVRFUkFMV0FZU0YAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAACBAAA/gMA AHUHAABMWkZ1nN6x4/8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMztwLkBxMCgzQSzBTFfQqAiwjPCdk7F58yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwMy8UUAsKFWIM AWMAQCBXIQhgbGRuJwVAZG+hC4BnIHRoBAAgF6AOcxygBUALgCBob3Scc3AecR4iHXBlIAnwAmcL gGU/IEkgd/JhBCB1bgSBHxMHcBNQ7weQAJACIB1hYR4RBUAgAv8g4RdBAHAFQCGTIAAT0AXAlwdA IAATsCAacG93CYBvHuwjkCBQIYR5CGAeUGHpJYFvIADAax9AHeAXoOchhB8iI0RkaRzDJBImYQEm gHF1aWNrbHm2IAWxKPJzJCEpgC4H8GsT4BPgYiBxLR8TE9Fw+ybgCfBzBbECICmBB4AgEP8nAQQg J5grkydlHqALgCHxvx8wJxMm0Sv0HZELUWMJgA4uMJAKhQqLbGkxOIIwAtFpLTE0NA3w5wzQMqML WTE2CqADYBPQ+mMFQC00xwqHM3sMMDRG+kYDYTo1zjRGDIIF0ClQNRGAZQMgRiqABhByZwEJ8HRb U01UUDozBeA6REBnB0AyAHVt8i4FoG1dNW82fQZgAjCbN684u1cJgB+gc2Qj0MIsN1BlYnJ1CsAp kAQyMUEAMTk5NiDQOTo0MxSwTTxfNn2cVG8+nzi7KDB5Xw3AnGlABaAcoANwYi4fYeQubx2Aby0T wCNRR6CMZHVCvz1udWJqNIH/RN84uyqgS0AqkQdAH/AFsOscsESgUB/gaCvAO5ALgOZzMM8x0zM2 M0cUUQvy/TRGPhSwA6A50DSBA2ADAPxjIAWgAjADYDuwJFEfIf5yBGBIQgqFUeBHMiRgO6H/KMET wAnRBUADYASBLREmgPURgHYvNGMmsiViLLAhw/co8TCRHiBmHxNOki/xVDd9HeBiSEECMAcxH1EI YGf2aCqATuxIKMEBoAhgVdH5E+Bvdh00LzNTxR9RWnD/F6ApgEEAJWIXoDAyXRYjRP5wO+ArwAPw HXAKhQORUjT3UrFgYiqAVB2CIeJU0yrwfyOQJuAg4VJAJpECQCBxb99YoFLmXRYeoCRAcgqFJnH/ LlNgciZxEXEaoC80JPUFoP8G8CKzK6EEkCGwJwEwvTmA+ybACoUrNMhsD20fbi9vC/orCoV8OX8i wU1QcJAHwKlLMW1zOy9tcIFQHmADH6BLQDEoNjEzKUEBwDEtMDkwEeB83XAnRzukBgBkkHQgACcR 8EluYy5wkHdPd+dwkBhGQVhNQXRJMTI3/jh1N2tve/99D34fb61/v19Pj1CfNIIKhRbBAIRAAAAD ABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMGAfmNqvALsBQAAIMGAfmNqvALsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAA AADZpQ== - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB007D.C90E7320-- ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:46:52 EST Subject: Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) ~ ~ >Isn't it true that for a speed density efi system with an _absolute_ MAP ~ >sensor, then altitude compensation is not needed? For example, if you ~ >changed altitude, the barometric pressure changes, which changes the ~ >pressure in the manifold, which the MAP sensor directly measures. ~ > Temperature (air density) compensation is still needed. ~ > Yes, this is true iff one cares only about pressure differential across the throttle plates. This is the method employed in air flow benches. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Corey Cole Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:14:08 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Intake runner sizing.. On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, Corey Cole wrote: > [ munch ] > > I have a QuattroPro spreadsheet that calculates at what RPM the peak will > greetings: > could you post the equations (or make the file available on ftp)? > > later, > kc > Looked up the basic equation, and it should work for Rotary engines. One question, however. I've heard mentioned that the airflow through a rotary is essentially twice its "displacement". I've pretty much ignored rotaries, so I'm not sure how technically sound this is... Anyways, here is the equation: _c_ {_(ab+a+1)+-(((ab+a+1)^2 - 4ab))^.5_} f= 2pi { 2ab(L/A)sub 1 * V sub 1 } where: a=(L sub 2 A sub 1)/(L sub 1 A sub 2) b=(V sub 2)/(V sub 1) V sub 1= Vswept/2*((CR + 1)/(CR - 1)) c=speed of sound CR: Volumetric Compression Ratio L sub 1: Inlet pipe length A sub 1: Inlet pipe area (cross sectional) L sub 2: Air duct length A sub 2: Air duct area (cross sectional) Some notes about the above equation: The brackets ({) indicate a square root. The underline characters indicate that the upper set is the numerator, and the lower set is the denominator. The +- is ascii for plus or minus (I didn't want to throw another slash in there and possibly throw everyone off). Check out this crude ascii picture for clarification (hey, I'm trying): v Throttle =============|[[[[[[[[[[[[[ < Intake Chamber (a.k.a. Plenum) ^Air Duct || || || || || || || ||< Inlet pipe || || || || 1 2 3 4 1,2,3, and 4 are the cylinders. For rotaries, V sub 1 corresponds to mean cylinder volume, so I would assume that you would put "displacement" in there, but I'm not sure. If none of this helps, the equation and figure come from Richard Stone's "Introduction to Internal Combustion 2nd Ed." Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman ------------------------------ From: James Weiler Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 14:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bill Sarkozy I saw a message posted fron Bill a couple of days ago. If anyone has his E-mail address could you send it to me please? Thanks. ------------------------------ From: jengel@xxx.NET Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:42:49 +600 Subject: Re: Ford 2.3 litre motor > Some time ago, I salvaged a 2.3 litre turbocharged motor from an '87 T-Bird. > Although I have everything (ECU, EGO, MAF, etc.), most of the wiring was cut > to facilitate removal of the equipment from the body. Does anyone have, or > know where to find a pin-for-pin wiring diagram for this equipment? Any > help would be greatly appreciated. > > > Thanks, > > > Bill Sarkozy > > Kalamazoo, MI > > Allow me to recommend _Mitchell's_Electronic_Fuel_Injection_Troubleshooting_Guide_. It was very helpful while transplanting an '88 T'bird motor into my Mustang. BTW, it's ISBN 1-55561-032-3. Good luck! je ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:48:44 EST Subject: Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication) ~ ~ MIME-version: 1.0 ~ Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >Isn't it true that for a speed density efi system with an _absolute_ MAP ~ ~ >sensor, then altitude compensation is not needed? For example, if you ~ ~ >changed altitude, the barometric pressure changes, which changes the ~ ~ >pressure in the manifold, which the MAP sensor directly measures. ~ ~ > Temperature (air density) compensation is still needed. ~ ~ > ~ Yes, this is true iff one cares only about pressure differential across ~ the throttle plates. This is the method employed in air flow benches. ~ ~ - Bruce ~ ~ Forget my statement directly above - the original statement (at the top) is in error. If you are using an absolute pressure sensor, and you wish to perform differential pressure measurements, you need a reading reflecting the barometric pressure (taken when the engine is off or a hardwired value) in order to determine the differential. My statement above applies if you are using a differential sensor, with one side looking above the throttle plates, and the other below. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "George J. Murdoch" <100517.2176@xxx.com> Date: 21 Feb 96 19:46:02 EST Subject: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? From: George J. Murdoch, 100517,2176 TO: DIY_EFI, INTERNET:coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu DATE: 22/02/96 12:45 RE: Copy of: CD Ignition SMPS? I am interested in building CD ignition for driving 1 H.T. coil per cylinder using small coils similar to that used on the SAAB 9000 DI 16V engine I would be interested to know if anyone has any info on building a switch mode P.S. for the above and any comments on CD ignition in general . Thanks George. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 22 Feb 96 09:16:00 Subject: Re[2]: Real world TPI hp gains As far as I'm aware the EGR sits in the manifold, while it is only the bottom of the throttle body that circulates water (miles from the EGR). I think it may be used to keep the throttle body at a constant temperature to avoid minor power fluctuations caused by inlet temperature changes. I may be wrong, but I think it sounds like a reasonable explanation ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RE: Real world TPI hp gains Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 2/22/96 8:28 AM Original bits deleted ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 19:21:03 -0800 Subject: Re: Altitude compensation (Re: 286 Vindication)] Bruce Bowling wrote: > > X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: Message/rfc822 > X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 > X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] > Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > ~ > ~ MIME-version: 1.0 > ~ Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > ~ > ~ ~ > ~ ~ >Isn't it true that for a speed density efi system with an _absolute_ MAP > ~ ~ >sensor, then altitude compensation is not needed? For example, if you > ~ ~ >changed altitude, the barometric pressure changes, which changes the > ~ ~ >pressure in the manifold, which the MAP sensor directly measures. > ~ ~ > Temperature (air density) compensation is still needed. > ~ ~ > > ~ Yes, this is true iff one cares only about pressure differential across > ~ the throttle plates. This is the method employed in air flow benches. > ~ > ~ - Bruce > ~ > ~ > Forget my statement directly above - the original statement (at the top) is in error. > If you are using an absolute pressure sensor, and you wish to perform differential > pressure measurements, you need a reading reflecting the barometric pressure > (taken when the engine is off or a hardwired value) in order to determine > the differential. > > My statement above applies if you are using a differential sensor, with one side > looking above the throttle plates, and the other below. > > - Bruce Some boxes, the Haltech comes to mind, have a sensor in the box itself for barometric pressure. The Haltech uses a MAP vs. TP vs. RPM array and includes a modifier table for barometric pressure along with all of the other modifiers like intake temp, engine temp, etc. It would seem that when comparing MAP to TP and RPM you would have to have a provision for changes in barometric pressure. Your WOT MAP changes with the changes in barometric pressure, but I don't think that the engines needs are going to be the same as what is reflected in an unmodified table. Example: Sea-level, not WOT, 4000 rpm stablized, 22" MAP compared to 8000', WOT, 4000 rpm stablized, 22"MAP If all other things were equal like intake air temp etc, would this two conditions be identical in the "eyes" of the engine? Text book physics would tell you that the difference in air density is reflected in the fact that at the higher altitude you are at WOT at the same stablized rpm yet you are only getting 22" MAP and this is how your program would know the density is less, but I think that in the "real world", applied physics is going to bring other factors to prevail. Like the air flow difference in the plenum and runners between WOT and partial throttle for example. This difference in volumetric efficiency is difficult to calculate. You need to run the engine and program the table accordingly. The problem is that you are going to have a tough time programming the engine on the dyno at Sea-level and simulating a WOT w/stabilized mid rpm and 22" MAP senario. The only way to really do it is with a altitude test cell. Only then can you really measure whats going on and program the box accordingly. At that point you could tell what the engine sees as the operating difference between MAP as a function of engine load and MAP as a function of barometric pressure, especially at extreme altitudes or at altitudes with the extended table programming brought on by turbo charging for altitude compensation. I will be flight testing my V8 test bed before the end of this year to explore this very scenario. When I get the results I will let you all know what they are. hmm, flying laptop, I can hardly wait. - -j- ------------------------------ From: Chris Howard Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 20:43:17 +1100 Subject: Turbo Lag Hello all, A friend of mine navigates for an off-road stadium racing team here in Australia. The vehicle is a Mitsubishi Triton with a space frame chassis. The engine is a 2.6 litre turbocharged Mitsubishi engine. The engine has a Motec injection system fitted. An idea which we have been discussing is injecting fuel into the exhaust manifold during periods of closed throttle in order to keep the turbine speed up and reduce turbo lag. Has anyone tried something like this? Would the burning fuel damage the turbine blades? What type of injector would be suitable? (maybe a Diesel injector.) All ideas appreciated! Chris Howard Mechanical Engineering University of Sydney email: choward@xxx.AU Web: http://www.usyd.edu.au/~choward ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #50 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".