DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 26 February 1996 Volume 01 : Number 055 In this issue: Re: other performance automotive maillists Re: <911> Bosch Motronic -Forward -Reply -Reply RE: Turbo Lag Re: ADVICE NEEDED RE: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! Unreadable Posts Re: Turbo Lag Basic FI requirements? RE: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! Re: Turbo Lag Re: Basic FI requirements? Re: Effect of Improved Air-Flow on Speed-Density EFI Re: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! Non-turbo turbo RE: B&S fuel-pump See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Boxsell Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 21:11:27 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: other performance automotive maillists At 04:13 PM 24/02/96 -0500, you wrote: >>In a message dated 96-02-23 23:11:50 EST, you write: >> >>>Can anyone tell me of other performance related mail list servers? >>>Racing related? >>>I enjoy the diy_efi list & would like to see similiar stuff for other >>related >>>topics... >>> >>> >> >>I'd like a forward of any info yu get, please. Thanks! BTW... there is a >>Talon/Eclipse/Laser Digest put out 5 days a week if you are interested. >> >>Yes there is intrest in this digest as well as for Starion/Conquests if >available. >Thanks, Charlie at Function First Motorsports > > Charlie, Did you day there is a Starion/Conquest list ? Please send me info on this as I would be happy to exchange ideas being a Starion owner myself. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. ------------------------------ From: BANESI@xxx.com (Brad Anesi) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 10:27:54 -0800 Subject: Re: <911> Bosch Motronic -Forward -Reply -Reply Hi Mark- Thanks for the reply - at the risk of carrying this conversation futher (without the manual in front of me), can I assume that the Jetronic curve would be the same as the Motronic? Brad > If you have a look in some workshop manuals you should find the >graph for these sensors. Anything from Toyota to Volkswagon >(anything L or LH Jetronic based) all have the same temperature curve. >(Something to do with the Bosch manufacturing licence I would >imagine). The sensors are not really linear but with a basic system you >would probably get away with it (for coolant temp). ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:01:27 -0600 Subject: RE: Turbo Lag Turbo Magazine reported on one of these under development. It required a special motor, special alternator, made low boost, and was quite noisy but it did work - to the tune of about 2-3lbs of boost. It's been a year or so since I've heard anything about it so the project might have been dropped by now.... - ---------- >From: ARTHUR OKUN [SMTP:arthurok@xxx.com] Sent: Friday, February 23, 1996 3:09 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Turbo Lag how about an electrically driven supercharger??? begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(AP``0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP! M````# ```$I64$!14TDN0T]-``,`!A#!EF[_`P`'$*4!```>``@0`0```&4` M``!455)"3TU!1T%:24Y%4D503U)4141/3D].14]&5$A%4T553D1%4D1%5D5, M3U!-14Y4251215%525)%1$%34$5#24%,34]43U(L4U!%0TE!3$%,5$523D%4 M3U(L34%$14Q/5T)/``````(!"1 !````O (``+@"``";! ``3%I&=:U^GG__ M``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8`!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B M?,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F0*1U0=6X$@2 -L'9EC1 `C N($D%0!$7H'%U:1>A(&$@ MK'-P!9 ',2 $8'0%L-XL(0<'0!/0!*!A(;,`P-T-L" 7, ?@!N!O$\ AX',` MH1Z0 M'P`>4P&@xxx. R+3-L8@0@'G$CTS4@$B<$(&()X2#A>66;"L$%L7,

!B)6 E('K-E F`&%Y(>!&,&5B3##,S8R-Q11"_(S-FB_(Z$G ME .1'Y M40408P= -FPE8"Z0:1^ `Z!S==4A('(1 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 17:17:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: ADVICE NEEDED On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, George M. Dailey wrote: [ munch ] > in the final stages of installing my '89 350 TPI into my '58 chevy truck. > I've been planning this since 1985 (go ahead and laugh, in doesn't hurt > anymore :) > > GMD greetings: so, did you start planning in 85 to use an 89 motor, or ... :) later, kc - -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:54:12 -0600 Subject: RE: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! The bypass valve on my car cost $27 and is off of a Turbo Porsche. At full chat powershifts friends on the sidelines tell me it sounds like a soda was just opened up underhood and it sounds weird in the car as well. They're EASY to plumb and on my car with twin small turbos (5.0 Mustang) boost response is awesome. I've never had what I'd call "lag". If this vehicle doesn't already have a bypass valve I'd plumb one in before I'd try sending raw fuel into the pipes! If you're running real high boost you might plumb two in place. Mine exhaust to the atmosphere as I've got no MAF to worry about... - ---------- >From: Bruno![SMTP:u933234@xxx.au] Sent: Saturday, February 24, 1996 8:58 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Turbo Lag On Fri, 23 Feb 1996 ffmd@xxx.net wrote: > >What you are looking for is called an Anti-Lag System (ALS). It is > >used in many rally-race cars that compete in the WRC. There are a > >couple of different systems I have heard about, but the easiest to > >implement requires only a modification to the ECU on the engine. > > > >This system actually causes an intentional mis-fire by not firing one > >of the cylinders. The air/fuel mixture is still injected, and ends up > >getting pumped out the exhaust. When it hits the very hot turbine > >blades in the turbo, it ignites and works like a jet motor. Is there any reason for not using a blow-off valve in this situation? These, if you haven't heard of them before, keep the turbine spinning when the throttle is closed by bypassing the intake gases from the closed throttle when the pressure difference across the trottle increases to a certain point (eg 1 psi) and then closing when the throttle opens again. The turbine keeps spinning, maintaining the boost. I haven't driven a car with one, but from what I've heard, it makes a cool whizzing sound when changing gears, and makes a BIG difference to acceleration. I do admit it would cost a bit more than the timing system mentioned above, but i think it would not have quite the same effect on the exhaust system, and would be kinder to mufflers and cats. Bruno. ( u933234@xxx.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@X``0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F0#NP$>`' ``0```!X```!213H@5'5R8F\@3&%G("T@ M0GEP87-S(%9A;'9E(0````(!<0`!````%@````&[`^3QRE!O@<1OG!'/E?)$ M15-4`````!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% `````'@`?# $````,````2E900%%3 M22Y#3TT``P`&$(_ZK[0#``<0UP8``!X`"! !````90```%1(14)94$%34U9! M3%9%3TY-64-!4D-/4U0D,C=!3D1)4T]&1D]&05154D)/4$]24T-(14%41E5, M3$-(05103U=%4E-(24944T92245.1%-/3E1(15-)1$5,24Y%4U1%3$Q-14D` M`````@$)$ $````O!P``*P<``!$,``!,6D9U*5"E#O\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,` M4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E=#(W!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P)S=&5M`H,SMP+D!Q," M@S02S!3%?0J BPC/"=D[%Y\R-34"@ <*@0VQ"V!N9S$P,R\44 L*%6(,`6,` M0"!48&AE(&)Y"K $$78-!T!V'* "("!M>2 .8PK!!: 3P" D,C?R( !P9" $ M`!V #= ?(<\>L!QP"' &X"!0!; $\(T\ 5 _'6$CD!U@!< 1@![@=R%"+S! 'N = M\"$!(@M@9R(_,"$?4"+P'P$=8"'@8VS)'*!D;P>0;B<%0 = _Q>@,0`=T!& M'6$?H!S+,8+O*P0"("0Q`Z!B#< %L#6DO'1R'= 1L![0"X!G+N"_+[ @T2-@ M*+$JT2+R< 4@M0>0(3)R>0A@*D)R)*#?`P`X$C0P`R AX&1`: (8#QT+D'0"H4*BR-P,3B", +1:2TQ-#0- M\.<,T$/C"UDQ-@J@`V 3T/IC!4 M1@<*AT2[##!%ACI&`V$Z1PY%A@R"($(! M.G%O(5M33510"#IU.1K@,C,T0*T3P'4-L (P+AWP;C;024% 82X)@'4N/E!= M_T:O1[T&8 (P2.])^P80+4'))8!Y+$B096(Z< K "1W0,C12(#$Y.3:@(#@Z M-3@@$$U-CSE'O51O3\])^S?P>5^Y#!O+2XA M$]#'30)3WTZ>=6)J1<%5_]E)^U)E7& ?Q$PR,$(/>4,3,S9$AQ11"_)%AD_[ M`Z!(H&E2($O 4C)3! W0V&UD0"8`3/!N"W!CT%<1P"6@19(Z7QP^99!7GR%" M._(*P!R@xxx.5+:!!3%,I()#_,# % M0 0`93@F`":!*,$#@><=T#A (0!Y+3A /9 =XG0/H)E. =PSV^1!X!P<1>@<74H@ >1_P(@:Z ?D01A!I S M,"%063#C(M$Y!$5#52*V6-$C@?]!]F6A93@<@!\!<*0>L$70_U* :Y$=X6JA M+Y$#H#C13$'G=E$[$3PP8(D4%* [79"/VWS$; L M"H4&D#OC_S2",\)QE'Y4:1 VU%(@)1#^92; B+8]XB\0"X ZHS$PWX6!(O$* MA2+P19%T,U%G8G\7,&JR?*$GHX`B2#E>01<7?"'S@@@U 1D8'DK19"24?_G/IS9P#0 M/9 S4#A =D(P(?LS<1ZP9#PP:<%D05AA,:'_'D(TT:SB-P)L<8B5!W"ND_\3 MLPJ%=')V46?2!N =8')$\FDRHFYKM$A\TC2#=.'[;1$B\V$D(0W!1<(BQ J% M_SXF<*2!Y+2$-M"40'[S*L+\;74-T+,!B?1V(7]!7QW?2H+!ETK#:8'!D2@F MH$N?N4RK("G ?\&)P9,B.=7_0!0!D$ Q4B! 0"PT)4$\,/TS4")?'%\?8"]A M/ J%%L$"`,X```,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ```#T``0````4```!213H@`````!OD ` end ------------------------------ From: FIScot@xxx.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 19:51:43 -0500 Subject: Unreadable Posts I am not sure if this is the list it comes from but JVP@xxx.com sends a post that crashes my program with an integer divide by zero..... It leaves a file on the hard drive that is named winmail.dat. If you could start sending plain ASCII text I would appreciate it! Why are you sending encoded text? Thanks, Scot Sealander FIScot@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 20:27:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Turbo Lag How about just pressing the gas peddal? At 06:47 PM 2/24/96 -0800, you wrote: >how about FULL BOOST AT IDLE > ------------------------------ From: Clint Sharp Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 02:15:58 GMT Subject: Basic FI requirements? Let's see if I have been listening properly, I am going to build my own FI system and I have worked up a list of sensors/inputs I think I need. The system will control four injectors and two coils (a four cylinder CVH lump) with mapped ignition and possibly sequential injection. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything, or am being hopelessly optimistic here. The sensors I think I need are; 1. Crank sensor for RPM and position sensing. 2. Cam sensor for ignition and injector timing. 3. Airflow. 4. Water temp sensor for cold start enrichment. Could I get away with using the cam sensor alone for RPM and timing? What type of airflow sensor is best, i.e. can I use a throttle position pot and get good results or is a 'proper' flow sensor neccessary? Would retarding the ignition until the engine is hot be worthwile? I would like to use a 68hc11 but am open to suggestions if you think this chip isn't up to it (please no 'my controller is better than yours') Thanks for any help/suggestions in advance. - -- We apologise for the lack of coherent humorous comments. Normal service will be resumed shortly. clint@xxx.uk ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 18:36:53 -0800 Subject: RE: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! so you mean you keep the turbo revving high and vent the unneeded compressed air into the atmosphear with that if done properly you wouldnt need a waste gate just a servo controlled bleed valve. i think they use something like that on pressurized turbocharged piston light aircraft cessna p210, piper malibu and etc.? ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Sun, 25 Feb 96 21:02:05 MDT Subject: Re: Turbo Lag > How about just pressing the gas pedal? YES! What, are you guys certifiably insane, or just have nothing better to do? You are going to have a trunk full of batteries (or compressed air cylinders, depending on the approach) just to eliminate a few milliseconds of turbo lag! The weight/complexity/energy conversion penalties would FAR outweigh any possible gains you may get from such a system. Time to go back and review your Physics 101 texts, you ain't gonna get something for nothing, and if you do, that's exactly what it's worth - nothing. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: robert dingli Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:05:57 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Basic FI requirements? Clint Sharp asked about basic efi requirements, > I am going to build my own FI system and I have worked up a list > of sensors/inputs I think I need. The system will control four injectors > and two coils (a four cylinder CVH lump) with mapped ignition and > possibly sequential injection. Can anyone tell me if I missed anything, > or am being hopelessly optimistic here. The sensors I think I need are; > 1. Crank sensor for RPM and position sensing. > 2. Cam sensor for ignition and injector timing. > 3. Airflow. > 4. Water temp sensor for cold start enrichment. > Could I get away with using the cam sensor alone for RPM and timing? > What type of airflow sensor is best, i.e. can I use a throttle position > pot and get good results or is a 'proper' flow sensor neccessary? Would > retarding the ignition until the engine is hot be worthwile? I would > like to use a 68hc11 but am open to suggestions if you think this chip > isn't up to it (please no 'my controller is better than yours') > Thanks for any help/suggestions in advance. You can easily do away with the cam sensor and simply use a crank sensor for rpm and position. You will be firing the plugs once per revolution anyway and can simply fire the injectors once per revolution as well. Alternatively, you could use just a cam sensor and get 720 deg information. You can infer air flow from a throttle position pot, MAP sensor or MAF sensor depending on your application. The use of throttle position assumes a constant upstream pressure and thus isn't useful for turbo applications. The airflow per cycle (and hence fuel flow) as a function of MAP is near linear for any particular rpm and is easy to determine empirically. A calibrated MAF sensor is also easy to integrate. Air temperature would be useful for MAP/throttle position/moving vane air flow based systems. I don't understand why you would want to retard the ignition until the engine was hot. Some systems retard the ignition when the inlet air temp gets too hot while others advance the idle timing to increase torque after a cold start. You can worry about these subtle corrections after you have the system running. For refernce, get hold of a copy of Bosch's little red Automotive Electronics handbook which details the early Bosch efi and ignition systems. The HC11 will have plenty of power for an initial diy-efi and is extremely easy to get going. Robert - -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** ------------------------------ From: robert dingli Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 15:26:47 +1100 (EST) Subject: Re: Effect of Improved Air-Flow on Speed-Density EFI George McLaughlin III asked, > > I have been following the thread regarding speed-density EFI systems > for some time now, but still am somewhat perplexed as to why > improvements in air intake would not positively affect engine > performance. I would assume that greater air flow would lead to > higher MAP values and the ECM would adjust the fuel mixture > accordingly (assuming it does not fall outside of the range of its > tables or the capacity of the fuel injectors). > > Where am I going wrong in this assumption (and does the fact that > this is a turbocharged engine affect things at all)? Your assumption is correct providing the efi system has sufficient reserve to cope with higher MAP values. Simply derestricting the input path should not be a problem. Adding a turbo to a normally aspirated speed density system would be a bit much for your average ayatem to cope with. regards, Robert - -- Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:06:41 -0800 Subject: Re: Turbo Lag - Bypass Valve! ARTHUR OKUN wrote: > > so you mean you keep the turbo revving high and vent the unneeded > compressed air into the atmosphear with that if done properly you > wouldnt need a waste gate just a servo controlled bleed valve. > i think they use something like that on pressurized turbocharged > piston light aircraft cessna p210, piper malibu and etc.? They use both. The bypass valve keeps the manifold pressure within specs when you let off the throttle, like when you start a descent, and the waste gate keeps the turbo speed and boost within specs when you apply full throttle for take off at low altitude. Some have a manual waste gate that you adjust in the run up before take off so that you are getting the desired manifold pressure at full throttle. Some use an automatic servo operated waste gate based on differential pressure to prevent turbo overspeeding at high altitude. - -j- ------------------------------ From: einarp@xxx.no (einarp) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 96 09:55:34 CET Subject: Non-turbo turbo Re: Electriaclly driven supercharger. >This motor would also put quite a load on the electrical system on the >car. The size I'm thinking is a small starter motor, for the torque. >Would have to spin at a low speed, to stop itself from flying to bits. Alfa Romeo used two "turbos" where the turbine side were replaced by hydraulic motors. There was a hydraulic pump driven directly by the engine. They were said to give boost right from low RPM. And with no need for regulation (like a wastegate on a turbo). This was done back in 196. - -- einarp@xxx.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) ------------------------------ From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:23:15 MET Subject: RE: B&S fuel-pump Jim Staff wrote back Feb. 23: > I believe that the fuel pump really doesn't matter. As long as >you have a fuel rail with a pressure regulator. With the regulator set to the >desired pressure. A 10 HP engine should have no problem taking standard >pressures from a car fuel pump. My problem is to DRIVE the pump! A Bosch-car-fuel-pump consumes around 12 V 58W, my alternator brings 6V 60W. Aren't there any belt- or vacuum driven fuel-pumps? Hans hiha@xxx.de ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #55 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".