DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 7 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 068 In this issue: Re: MC3334 question Re: MC3334 question Re: Volumetric eff. Re: VE Re: inductive vs optical Re: L-jetronic Re: Fuel Maps Re: MC3334 question Re: Turbo Lag Re: Volumetric eff. Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Re: inductive vs optical Re: Volumetric eff. Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Re: inductive vs optical Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Re: MC3334 question Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Re: inductive vs optical free data books Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX Encoder Equations.. Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX fpga compilers See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Fawke Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 21:17:44 +1000 Subject: Re: MC3334 question At 01:42 AM 6/3/1996 -0500, Sandy wrote: >At 09:55 AM 3/6/96 +1000, you wrote: >>Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >>analogue is _very_ limited.... >> >>On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >>circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >>MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >>on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >>not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >>current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >>can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? >> >I don't have the circuit handy (i'm on the road), but I thought that it had >the sense resistor. The value on the moto data sheet is .075Ohms I think. >Their is also a variable resistor from that to form a simple divider network >that is used to adjust the current that the limiting starts at. The thing >that I remeber from Tim's stuff is that it was the exact same circuit as the >moto data sheet. > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance wire to carry the current? Michael Fawke fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: Mark Boxsell Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 21:39:22 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: MC3334 question At 09:55 AM 6/03/96 +1000, you wrote: >Pardon my ignorance, but I am a computer programmer and my knowlege of >analogue is _very_ limited.... > >On the MC3334, when used to drive an MJ10012 (?) with current sense, the >circuit diagram I have shows a .027 Ohm resistor bewteen ground and the >MJ10012, with the sense taken from the MJ10012 side. In Tim Drury's article >on Distributorless ignition, he gives a circuit for the ignitor which does >not have this resistor. I am assuming the resistance is necessary for the >current sense to work, - so what can be used to create this resistance, or >can it really be discarded (as per Tim Drury's design)? > >Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >for another coil :) > >Thanks in advance. > >PS. Angle sensing using optical light/dark coding on a wheel is _really_ >dark ages stuff. Missed pulse/Long pulse detection is much better. >At least if the sensor fails the whole system stops - what do you think >would happen with a binary encoded wheel? Ugh! - makes me shudder! > >Michael Fawke >fawkacs@xxx.au > > Mike, Most Nissan and Mitsubishi vehicles with engine management systems use optical timing disks. (Have a look in a VL Commodore distributor). As far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. regards, Mark Boxsell. ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:07:54 +0500 Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. "Unless Engine Analyzer is a true airflow solver (with user-defined mesh points, etc) and the user enters info like intake runner cross-section, inertial supercharge index, etc, it is dealing with approximations" I use a true airflow solver on the job. It's called MANDY, which stands for MANifold DYnamics, and is mentioned in papers submitted to various engineering societies and journals(most recently in SAE automotive Engineering last month).It's proprietary, but very accurate. Our mesh isn't user-defined, it's automatically generated. We do input runner lengths and cross-sectional areas(among other things), but there is no 'interial supercharge index', a term we've never heard of. If you mean 'inertial charging', true solvers will calculate it; it's an output, not an input. In spite of it's accuracy, we'll be the first to admit that it's still an approximation. ------------------------------ From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar@xxx.com Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:43:26 -0600 Subject: Re: >Bohdan Bodnar wrote: > >> GM and Chrysler MAP sensors have an output which is roughly between 0.1 and >> 4.9 volts. > >This is to allow for mfg. tolerances to gurantee that any given unit will >be within the 0-5V input range of the a/d converter. The zero offset also >provides a little headroom for noise immunity. Actually, the voltage ranges are to allow the computer to test to see whether (1) the output's shorted to ground or (2) whether the output's open (i.e., voltage higher than about 4.9 volts). Noise immunity is achieved by low-pass filtering the signal. >> Ford's MAP sensors (and BMAP sensors) output a variable frequency. At >> atmospheric pressure, the frequency will be between 155 and 159 Hz. >> About a year ago I posted a table which gave output frequency vs. pressure >> for a Ford MAP sensor. > >Would you kindly email this to me, if you still have it kicking around? >Actually, post it to DIY_EFI, there are probably more people who would like >to see it. > >regards >dn I don't have it readily available. Time permitting, I'll dig it up (it's from some Ford training material) and post it early next week. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar ------------------------------ From: Byron Clemens Date: Wed, 06 Mar 96 08:38:30 EST Subject: VE According to the designer of Engine Analyzer the VE that is output from their program is calculated from many of the various inputs to the program and some estimates. If someone has what they feel is accurate real world data(VE) for a particular engine and they wish to send me the engine data required by EA I will run it through EAv2.5 and post the comparative VE numbers. BYRON CLEMENS BITNET: BCLEMEN@xxx.BITNET HUMAN RESOURCES APP SPEC I INTERNET: BCLEMEN@xxx.EDU 100 ANTOINETTE, ASB #1, RM 156.1 PHONE: (313) 577-2059 Detroit, MI 48202 FAX: (313) 577-8767 ------------------------------ From: "Paul E. Campbell" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: inductive vs optical > Missing/short/long pulse detection needs either time or frequency based > detection. (Any other's I've missed?) Phase. But really all three are from the same general concepts. > Car engines run over a relatively wide rpm range, so time-based detection > is out. Incorrect. You need an adaptive system is all (measures changes in the AVERAGE rate or average pulse length, not absolute sensing). The amount of extra stuff to implement this is minimal (564 or a '4040 would probably be overkill). > Frequency based detection is usually done by a phase or frequency locked > loop, either analog or digital. > > Either way, you still have a fairly complex filter to design to ensure > under/over-shoot doesn't cause false (extra or missing) triggering. Excuse me? You run a single active filter loop giving you a second order response (practically infinite shaping possibilities for this case). Takes an op amp and a pair of resistors and capacitors. And it's not even text book..the PLL documentation I have is literally a case of "plug in the numbers" design. For those who want all digital, one uses a lag/lead type phase detector with a down/up input onto the register which stores the modulus on a count to N (or divide by N) register. > Multiple sensors (inductive or optical) remove the need for any loop > filter > design. You do have to allow for sensor failure, and yes, you now have > more sensors which could fail. Sensor sets cost about $3. PLL's cost about $2-$5 (depends on whether or not it's all digital). Pretty much a flip of the coin. > If you use two sensors for angle (eg quadrature encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine > rocks back :-) Another advantage of quadrature sensors is you are not entirely SOL if one goes out because it just cuts your resolution in half and negates the possibility of reverse direction sensing. > Generally, I'd say an inductive sensor is more reliable than an optical > sensor. > The sensor itself isn't affect by voltage spikes as much as a LED, > although the > supporting analogue circuitry may be. Inductive sensors require more signal conditioning and they should be fed by alternating current to prevent problems in residual fields. > Development time is the single most expensive part of any design. > Hence three optical sensors (1 for index plus 2 for quadrature angle), a > printed > wheel, an EPLD, about 2 hours of programming, and I'm done. Not in the case of DIY because more development time is GOOD. Remember that DIY's do not account for time so much as the thrill of designing and getting it working. It's not a "get it out the door" problem. I may get flamed with disagreement but "DIY" pretty much implies hobbyist. BTW..how in the world do you get hold of cheap FPGA/EPLD type programmers and the associated compilers? Unless it's a PAL or older GAL's, it seems that the manufacturers want on the order of $0.5-10K for the tools. ------------------------------ From: WERNER_HAUSSMANN@xxx.com Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 08:25:11 -0700 Subject: Re: L-jetronic Hi James There are several books that give details about the Bosch systems. I suggest you get the one by Charles 0. Probst, Bosch Fuel Injection & Engine Management. Also find someone who has a copy of the British Car magazine, June & August '95.It talks a little about the minimum equipment needed. I suggest as minimum a fuel pressure gauge to about 60psi for port injection with electric injectors, a voltmeter, and a CO meter. I still don't seem to be on the DIY_EFI distribution, can you tell me if there have been any responses to my original request for information on a Bosch vacuum switch? Werner ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: L-jetronic Author: Non-HP-james (james@xxx.ca) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw2 Date: 3/5/96 6:19 PM Thanks Werner and welcome to the list !! I usually reply direct instead of to the list (saves time sifting throught the list looking for people who have replied to you). Wow, I'm impressed with your conversion, how did you know it would work??? Similar engine size? I've got the Jeff Hartman book, I agree it's fantastic. I'd be really interested in hearing the story behind this job, your troubles and triumphs etc. I'd like to do something like this some day so I'm trying to learn from other peoples experiences. What equipment do you have for EFI that you can't live without?? I'm looking at fuel pressure guages and am having trouble deciding which one to get. Any advice??? One more thing, can you get me the ISBN number for the Bosch FI book?? Is this the one by Adler ?? Sounds like a good read. thanks again james ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:52 GMT Subject: Re: Fuel Maps >> My main question here is: >> How does everyone out there tune the fuel (and ignition) maps on their >> system? get the best O2 or other air fuel meter you can afford or borrow (an EGT-exhaust gas temp meter is also handy) then, after you get some baseline programming done in the driveway, go drive around. Data logging will make things much easier, esp when speeds climb and or traffic is a problem. the faster the car the harder it is to top end due to road and traffic conditions. as for the ign, I try to start with a curve similar to factory(if I have it) and then tweek it with the aid of the EGT and knock sensor Fred ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 07:42:50 GMT Subject: Re: MC3334 question could it be, Tim used circuit resistances instead of an actual resistor? I did some coil testing 2 weeks ago in which I scoped the voltage drop across a clip lead leading to the driver ground. > You could consider paralleling several smaller resistors to get the >required value. Let's see, this resistor would dissipate about 2.5 W @ >6 A (I^2*R). You could parallel 4 X .1 ohm, 1W resistors (or 10 X .27 ohm >.5W) to give .025 ohm @xxx. If you have good dwell control, the only time you'll approach these dissipation figures is at very high rpm when the duty cycle is highest. one last thing. does anyone know where to get the MC3334 (I could use 10-12) Fred ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:49:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Turbo Lag > Here's my thoughts on how to reduce turbo lag. Put the butterfly > valve on the suction side of the compressor. If's there is little to I had a turbo Capri 2.3 with a carb upstream from the turbo. Lag was still a problem. Of course with that car, everything was a problem. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:42:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. > A true airflow simulation would take many, many minutes to execute on a > generic '386 PC (or hours). From this fact alone I conclude that Engine > Analyzer is empirical in operation. On my old 486-66 it took perhaps 10 seconds to calculate, and that's only 10 points. You specify the start RPM, and the RPM step, and it calculates for those points until it has done 10 points. It's not my favourite way to specify this sort of thing, but in the end it solves the problems. As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home tonight. :-) I'll make a run and post the output here so people can see what EA outputs. It won't be until Friday, because I'm out of town tommorow. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 11:11:21 -0700 Subject: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. The 28pin pkg has the following pinout ... 1 Vpp 2 n/c 3 *OE 4 *CE 5 n/c 6 AD0 7 AD8 8 AD1 9 AD9 10 AD2 11 AD10 12 AD3 13 AD11 14 GND 15 AD4 16 AD12 17 AD5 18 AD13 19 AD6 20 AD14 21 AD7 22 AD15 23 A16 24 n/c 25 *ALE 26 *BHE 27 *PGM 28 Vcc BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( Jim Conforti ------------------------------ From: Jeff Hansen Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 10:04:07 Subject: Re: inductive vs optical I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, this could be useful. I use encoders on just about every servo motor in every product that I have designed at work. I would not expect the 1000 line and 2500 line encoders that I use, to live very long under my hood. A 360 line encoder with an index pulse would be nice, but the only real improvement you will probably see would be simpler software. Don't you guys like software? [snip] > This brings up an interesting point... Hewlett Packard makes a chip > specifically for reading optical encoders, which may work great with this > type of system. Assuming you can get the 50% duty cycle waveforms as > mentioned above, (you could have some sort of sensitivity adjustment on > the sensors so it picks up the tooth halfway up and down each ramp) the > chip takes care of the *** QUADRATURE *** decoding and has a built in 16 bit counter [snip] > All you really need is the 2 *** QUADRATURE *** tracks, plus a single "index" marker > which generates a pulse once per revolution. In this manner, you have a sync > pulse which tells you when you have gone one full turn, and simply reference > everything to the sync pulse... [snip] > If you use two sensors for angle (eg *** QUADRATURE *** encoding), you can test for > either of these failing as well. Ok, so if the engine rocks backwards when > you switch it off will confuse this, but you don't care at this point. > I'd prefer to have the sensor checking than to know how far my engine rocks > back :-) Andrew , I know you understand. [snip] > Why? As long as your timing resolution is high enough, and you don't rely > on the micro for doing the *** QUADRATURE *** or handling a zillion interrupts, > a micro should be able to handle up to 7 or 8000 RPM easily. 8000 RPM is > only about 1Khz. Later - ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jeff Hansen Anaheim, California, USA JHansen777@xxx.com http://members.gnn.com/JHansen777/car/index.htm Seven pounds of boost is a 'Good-Thing' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 13:42:13 EST Subject: Re: Volumetric eff. ~ As for Engine Analyzers accuracy, say hello to Courtney when you get home ~ tonight. :-) ~ Darn - I was hoping that EA's results was garbage, so I would NOT have to go back home to Courtney. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 15:25:49 +0000 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX > From: Land Shark > It's a 1M (64k x 16bit) EPROM with MULTIPLEXED A/D lines .. > BTW, these EPROMS are NO LONGER PRODUCED :( But thanks for the information, but - Now you REALLY made my day... Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra EPROMs for testing. - --- David Parrish Bummed out. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:36:02 GMT Subject: Re: inductive vs optical > Check out HP (Hewlett Packard). They make an optical sensor setup that you > can buy different resolution disks for, or make your own. They are the HEDS > 5000, 6000, and 9000 series. They even make one with 360 cpr, and are very > small in size. Coupled with an HCTL2000/2016 quadrature decoder chip, > (X4 resolution, built in 12/16 bit counter w/direction, 8 bit parallel > interface) you have an instant position sensing system with no programming > or fabricating at all. Do you have information on the HED 1000? or know were I can get it. I recently aquired one for free and If I can use it that would save me $3.00.. Thanks.. Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:21:48 -0700 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX At 03:25 PM 3/6/96 +0000, you wrote: >Not only is it not standard, which means a custom reader/programmer >and databooks that may not even be available anymore, but even if I >were masochistic enough to reprogram the box, I can't get extra >EPROMs for testing. How about you find your local FUJITSU seller .. I'll bet ya he has a burner to program these .. and MAYBE even a few blanks ... NEXT .. get the code read ... and disassembled .. Now, even if you CANT get any more .. you can always just make a little daughterboard on a header and use it to translate a regular 27C1024 into a multiplexed arrangement ... No biggie ... (this is where you EE types step in to help ;) Jim ------------------------------ From: Michael Fawke Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 10:19:13 +1000 Subject: Re: MC3334 question >>Also, how do you pick a coil to work with this design? Most coils I have >>seen (single output) are sold with no info on resistance. Can the M3334 (when >>used with current sense) use _any_ coil? I am currently using a coil with >>a ballast resistor and would prefer not to fork out another $50 Australian >>for another coil :) >> >As >far as the coils go why not take your multimeter with you and measure the >damn things if you are not sure. This is DIY EFI after all. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell. > Because I have never had much luck in getting a sales person to allow me to open a sealed pack...... Michael Fawke fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 20:19:52 -0500 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX I just might be able to help out here. I have a gadget which can read 87256 devices which are latched 256 eproms, I'll check and see if it can read 1024 devices. I also have a source of 87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. It'll be Friday before I can get to it though so be patient Peter Wales pjwales@xxx.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Wed, 6 Mar 96 19:19:10 MDT Subject: Re: inductive vs optical Jeff Hansen writes > I have been following the "Re: inductive vs optical" thread and quadrature > keeps coming up. The _primary_ purpose for quadrature is to determine the > direction of rotation. I'm pretty sure :-) that this is not important in > this application. The _secondary_ purpose is to allow for a 4x > multiplication of encoder resolution by using both edges of both sensors, > this could be useful. You're right, direction is not an issue. But it does make sense to use quadrature for the error checking and x4 aspects, plus quadrature encoders are readily available. > Don't you guys like software? Solder is my favorite programming language :) regards dn PS - please set your editor to a more manageable line length - it's hard to read your messages. tnx - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: CHAN WEN YEN Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 21:59:50 -0500 Subject: free data books AMD will courier free data books to anyone who calls their APPLICATIONS HOTLINE. AMD's EPROM products data book (#17061B) may be of general interest. AMD also publishes , among other things, a cross reference guide. The number to call is (800) 222-9323 CANADA/USA, 0590-8621 FRANCE, 0130-813875 GERMANY. Wenyen Chan chanwe@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: MTaylorfi@xxx.com Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them upo as a development module. > > ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:07:11 GMT Subject: Encoder > Looks like a metal case TO-5 transistor with 8 leads and a lens on the end? > > If so, it's basically a reflective sensor with LED and photodetector on the > same die. I'ts focussed to a spot size of .190mm, 4.27mm in front of the > case. It has a photodiode with a single transistor preamp built in. > Shouldn't be too hard to interface to, but making the wheel is going to be > a bear. Why is the wheel going to be a bear. Spot size will allow me to use .2mm marks, the focal points a bit out there but I'll recess the sensor. But what is the output voltage? And the transition time? It's not a big deal because I'm using it on a digital counter circuit so all it has to do is generate a positive or negative going edge >2ns in diration. Opps by the way (I've never used these before) the reflection is the positive voltage right? Thanks... Cool beans! Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 05:09:07 GMT Subject: Equations.. I need help with equations for a MAP system. I have this general equation.. PV=nRTe P = pressure [assuming intake from MAP sensor] in KPA V = Displacement of Cylinder in Liters N = moles of atmosphere in Moles R = Universal gas constant : 8.31L/Kpa W/ KPA & Liters T = Absolute temp ¡K of intake air [temp sensors job] Could you help me nail down the real units on these things? I'm a second year chemistry student, and I know this simple Gas law but I don't know the units in this Application!!! e = Volumetric Efficiency Unitless Could someone provide a formula to just get a cheap estimate of this term. I can't solve for it since I have no empirical data, also no staight substitutions work either: as the e terms will cancel. I have a briggs and stratton engine, and those bastards won't give me volumetric efficiency information at all. They said that it wasn't even availible. I said bullshit if the didn't know Ve they wouldn't know other general things like fuel consumption and torque. I even said I didn't care if the values weren't worth shit. Please help me, I'm a High school hobbiest. I have no access to high tech equipment like dyno's and bench equipment. My life sucks, Thanks for your concern, Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: MTaylorfi@xxx.com Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:10:19 -0500 Subject: Re: Info on MBM27C1028 EPROM for Subaru SVX In a message dated 96-03-06 21:18:01 EST, you write: >87256's and at the worst we can hook 4 of them **upo** as a development module. > > ^^^ Peter, Don't you have a spell checker down there!!!! See ya, Mike ------------------------------ From: Mike Klopfer Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1996 23:18:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: fpga compilers I've seen free versions of MACH and Lattice isp series FPGA compilers, there's also some other free compilers I saw on a FPGA www site but none seemed to be for the big FPGAs. I don't know how the size of these FPGAs compares with big stuff from Altera or Xilinx. Also I saw an ad for Cypress VHDL compiler for $99. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #68 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".