DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 9 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 071 In this issue: Re: MC3334 question CO sensor for Leaded ? Re: Encoder Re: Encoder Re: Encoder Re: Encoder Re: Encoder (now reliability and qualified parts for diy_efi) Re: Encoder Re: CO sensor for Leaded ? Fuel injector optimum location EFI for MR2 Re: Encoder Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Re: Encoder See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tdrury@xxx.edu Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 08:36:30 EST Subject: Re: MC3334 question > Hmmm - nope, the .075 ohm resistor is missing from Tim's circuit (the Net > version anyway). What resistor do you use here? Obviously this is not > something that you buy off the shelf.... Maybe several pieces of resistance > wire to carry the current? Oops. It got left off the schematic. When I couldn't find a 0.075 ohm resister I found some 12 guage wire and ran about an inch or so. Between the wire and the PCB ground plane I ended up with about 0.075 ohms. (yes, I did subtract off the resistance for the ohmmeter leads). - -tim ------------------------------ From: "bryan (b.p.) rozier" Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:15:00 -0500 Subject: CO sensor for Leaded ? Hi folks, After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters from the web site I was planning to make one for my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) Cheers Bryan<------------------------------------------------------------------^ | B.P. Rozier | Alleged Software Engineer | bprozier@xxx.uk | | voice/vmail | Bell Northern Research | CBR1000F-J VROOOOM:) | | 01279 403746 | Harlow, Essex, England | OGRI. DoD #0xFOAD | v------------------------------------------------------------------> ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:54:46 -0500 Subject: Re: Encoder > rated for 10,000,000 revolutions If traveling at 50 MPH, turning 2,000 RPM, that encoder will expire after 4,150 miles. You'll be changing encoders more often than most people change their oil. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: "Kenneth C. King" Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:17:53 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Encoder On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. greetings: help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! later, kc - -- "ooooh, crumbs!"if the world is nite, shine my life like a lite"live your life with PASSION"hey waiter, there's a transvestite in my soup"hey mister, are you tall?"all alone in the nite"son of a son of a sailor"John DeArmond fanclub #13 "he's dead, jim"he's not dead, he's electroencephalographically challenged" kc ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:37:21 -0500 Subject: Re: Encoder > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume an average speed of 100 KPH, thats 2,350 hours, or 141,000 minutes. If we assume 2,500 RPM then that is 352,500,000 revolutions. In all of that abuse, the only thing that has been changed in the engine is the head gasket. I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Corey Cole Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:24:55 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Encoder On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > greetings: > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > > later, > kc Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math right. Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu '65 Skylark "Knowledge is power...but cubic inches help." Go #24!!!!! I was drunk the day my mom got out of prison and I went to pick her up in the rain. But before I could get to the station in my pick up truck, she got runned over by the darned old train... David Allen Coe Steve Goodman ------------------------------ From: Jerry Wills Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 14:01:29 -0800 Subject: Re: Encoder (now reliability and qualified parts for diy_efi) >>>>> "Michael" == Michael F Sargent writes: Michael> I'm not trying to start a "mines better than yours" thread here. I am trying Michael> to show that a DIY EFI project must be very reliable, or it will be a constant Michael> problem in a daily driver. (And even worse problems in a boat or a plane.) If you believe that did-it-yourself EFI and daily driver go together without needing TLC before your oil changes, I believe your dreaming. The factories go way beyond the reasonable testing to get the bugs out of production cars. We have the advantage that many parts we will use to build 'our' systems, are already factory qualified, but the Auto enviroment/specs are worse than the mil specs ,in many cases. I would be proud if the system I put together, could just meet mil spec. I have tried to turn projects (like mech T.J. FI on a lotus)into daily drivers, and found that I was always looking over my shoulder. I save my projects for my toys, not my basic transport. I want EFI on my bike, that doesn't cost what the bikes worth :^) do the aftermarket chips for EECIV-V disable the learn and recalibrate modes, or just change the basic lookup tables? and can they extend the RPM to 10,500. Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) ------------------------------ From: Andrew Huang Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 15:14:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Encoder > if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! It's truely awesome. I have Toyoto truck with 235,000 Km on it. If we assume And the dumbest thing is when we see advertisements from GM that claim "99% of the GM cars and truck sold in the last 4 years still start everyday" Even Lotus, with Lucas electronics could truthfully make that claim. - -andy ------------------------------ From: Michael Fawke Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 09:33:23 +1000 Subject: Re: CO sensor for Leaded ? At 09:15 AM 8/3/1996 -0500, Bryan wrote: >Hi folks, > >After downloading some of the circuits for CO meters >from the web site I was planning to make one for >my mini. However I saw a note (in the faq?) that >said that all CO sensors are for unleaded fuel only :( > >However you can buy exhaust gas analysers which work >on leaded (for biggish bucks) so there must be some >around. Any ideas ? Are there any UK available cars >with such a thing (adverse to spending money :) ) There are two types of sensors, the 'standard' sensor for production cars which lasts forever :) and the wide-range sensors which have a life of ~500 hours for unleaded and ~50 hours for leaded. I know that Bosch sells the wide 'Motorsport' lambda sensor for ~$350 Australian. I think there may also be a long-life sensor for leaded - try talking to Link Electromotive in New Zealand (link@xxx.nz), the sell their 'Lambda Link' meter ($90 NZ) and also sell the sensors (~90 for unleaded and > $200 for leaded). Michael Fawke fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: "ROCQUE Mike (MSMail)" Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 16:10:58 -0700 Subject: Fuel injector optimum location Hi, DIY'ers I'm looking for some feedback on the optimal location of the injector on the intake system. It's a high pressure (55PSI) system on a Honda VTEC 1.8 L engine. It is used strictly for road racing. I'm also in the final stages of building a mold for a carbon fibre intake and need to know where to put the injector boss. I have read contradicting reports on the location of the injectors. Is it true that an injector mounted above the velocity stack ie outside the intake system at the mouth of throttle body...also assuming it is mouted far away to not reduce flow...that this will produce maximum power. I'm not concerned with emissions or mileage......however I'm concerned about hi pressure fuel on the atmosphere side of the system. What happens when I shut the throttle quickly..and get some fuel run-on. etc..? mike...... email mrocque@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cal@xxx.com (Cal Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:18:02 MST Subject: EFI for MR2 Dear DIY netter's, I am trying to solve a couple of problems and I think I am in the right place--I need to know if my thoughts are correct however, so that I won't bomb the list with inappropriate drivel. It seems to me from the DIY_EFI website that the majority of the effort of this list is steered into creating functional EFI/ECU systems from component digital parts, etc. My needs are functional fuel, ignition, turbocharger, and tire-traction management. I don't care whether I buy or build the control systems. To me the end result is a functional, well-performing automobile; not the building of a custom ECU system. If a manufacturer can deliver what I need at a fair price, I will pay for their product. My specific needs are an EFI system that I can control either through a custom controller-unit (ala SDS) or via PC laptop (If the PC is the solution, is the software included? If not, how much extra is SW?). I need to be able to control boost levels up to 3-bar and ignition with boost & rpm-dependent advance/retard. Most importantly with respect to ignition, I need to be able to have the staggered twin-plug timing which is so critical to the low-rpm operation of a Mazda rotaty (Wankel) engine. FWIW, I would also operate the system closed-loop at part-throttle. The engine is the 3-rotor, 2-litre variant of the wankel, so it will have six spark-plugs and six (staged) fuel-injectors. I merely need the ignition to trigger the proper spark--the amplification, coil, and spark-shaping will be handled separately. As for turbo control, I want to control pneumatic wastegate actuation via a solenoid which diverts actuation air away from the wastegate at low boost levels. Ideally the ECU would control the turbo to provide constant mass-flow through the engine regardless of rpm (yeah-right...anyway that's the goal...). As for traction-control, I want to control the wastegate actuator and the fuel-injectors to lower boost and/or cut out fuel from random cylinders entirely when the ABS signal from the front and rear wheels indicates greater than 15% slip of the rear wheels. Any advice you can give is greatly appreciated. If you know of an off-the-shelf system that meets my needs, please suggest it. Likewise, if you know of mods to existing units which could make these things happen, please drop a line. I just subscribed to the list and I hope my desires are in-line with the charter of this organization. Thanks, Cal Smith cal@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: dn Date: Fri, 8 Mar 96 16:19:26 MDT Subject: Re: Encoder Everybody has an opinion on this one: > On Fri, 8 Mar 1996, Kenneth C. King wrote: > > > On Thu, 7 Mar 1996, dn wrote: > > > better off just buying an encoder. Newark has 100 ppr units that look like > > > a pot for around $35, rated for 10,000,000 revolutions. > > greetings: > > help me with the math... 10M revolutions at highway speed (2500 rpm) will > > be used up in 4000 min. (4000m * 2500r/m = 10Mrev) that's about 66 hour, or > > about 5 days (straight), which at 60 mph is about 4000 miles. did i do this > > correctly? if so, i have a newfound respect for the mtbf of most engines! > Actually, wouldn't it be 8000 miles since the distributor runs at half > engine speed? Still not a good number, but we might as well get the math > right. > > Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu Whoa! I see what they mean about the abundance of sharpness on this list! We were referring to installing this thing on a Briggs + Stratton one lunger!!! Kids, don't try this at home on your V8!!! I realize that this is not a useful device for a car engine, but on a B+S it would work long enough for Jim to run his mileage contest and then some... I figure at 1000 RPM it'll last 160 hours, that's damn near the useful life of a B+S anyway. I didn't think he'd want to spend more on the encoder than the engine was worth! Shit, now I'm gonna get 2756 undeserved messages telling me what a bonehead I am.... Your'e right Jim, life sucks. regards, dn - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mitsu16v@xxx.com Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 23:40:06 -0500 Subject: Info on Code or EPROM for 93 16V Eclipse Anyone know where I can get a chip for a 93 16 valve Eclipse? Or possibly where I can get the source code, and possibly any other mods I can make to the stock EFI: Thanks in advance! ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 1996 20:46:52 -0800 Subject: Re: Encoder that little encoder is a digital pot the sort of thing you would turn with your fingers in that sort of application it'll last for many years ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #71 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".