DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 13 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 075 In this issue: [none] Simple carb-based systems, who? Re: EGT for mixture setting Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Re: EGT for mixture setting Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting RE: Re[2]: EGT mixture/Tcouples Re: Suzuki Swift GTi Twincam 1.3 (87) Re: Long returns!!! RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Re: EGT for mixture setting? M68000 family processors RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Re: EGT for mixture setting Re: EGT for mixture setting Postscript viewer ? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 08:24:46 EST Subject: [none] Darrell Norquay wrote: > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? The function beteen A/F mixture and EGT is non-linear (somewhat parabolic) with a peak that is NOT coincident with stoich. As you richen the mixture, the EGT goes down (which is why air cooled engines, particularly aircraft engines) are run very rich, As you lean past the peak, the EGT drops slightly (along with power) Obviously, there are other factors in play, and since the EGT also varies with power level using it as a substitute for a lambda sensor is a challenge in non-linear systems design. Check out _Combustion Engine Processes_ by L. Licty, published by McGraw-Hill. It's an older academic text on the subject, but has a plot on this function. Cliff Ducharme / A wing an a prayer... _______[*]_______ b / d ------------------------------ From: "Rolf Ask Clausen" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:29:18 +100 Subject: Simple carb-based systems, who? Hi, I've been lurking some time, and have a few really low-tech questions: I'm toying with my old Volvo Amazon (121, B20 engine) and has fitted an oxygen sensor in order to look a bit on the mixture and possibly use this data to adjust or change the carburettor setup. This works well with a simple bar graph display. Now to get on a bit, it seems a simple idea to use the lambda signal to control a valve in a small extra air pipe, bypassing the carb, and I know this has been done. The aim being to move the resulting mixture closer to stoich, ie. a low tech system improving on what I have without changing the whole thing. My question is: Who has done this? Are there any suppliers of some of this in kit form? What kind of electronics (computers?) are used? Venlig hilsen (Yours) Rolf Ask Clausen (BSc) Redaktionschef, Ingenicren (Managing editor, Ingenicren) - ----------------------------------------------------------- Not agreeing is my job Phone: (+45) 31216810/3218 or (+45) 31216802 tone 3218 Fax: (+45) 31216701. Snail mail: Ingenicren, Skelbeekgade 4, PO.box 373, 1503 Kbh. V., Denmark Ingenioeren - Engineering Weekly - is Denmarks #1 technical journal. Our website is at http://www.ingenioeren.dk My homepage is at http://ing.dk/homepages/rolfclausen/ rac@xxx. - ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: orlin steven jared Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 08:54:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting > Does the EGT sensor have to be close to the head? The reason I ask is > that I have headers, and the only practical place to mount EGT's would be > in the collectors. I assume that the temperatures would be somewhat > reduced, but still proportional(?) It would be almost useless to put the EGT sensor in the collector. First, you wouldn't be able to tell squat about mixture distribution between cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. You have to use the EGT sensors about an inch or two away from the exhaust port, for best results. Incidentally, I don't know much about T/C's, but I know that certain ones are rated at certain temps, so where you put the thing would depend on what temperature range your T/C's can handle. > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? >From what I've seen, at mid RPM ranges, rich mixtures (below stoich) produce lower temps, while leaner mixtures produce higher temps. But this is not set in stone. It will depend on the operation of the particular engine being tested. And each relationship between mixture/EGT temp will most likely be different. Which brings me back to my original point (maybe someone elses too?). EGT's are best used for checking distribution, not mixture. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? No. > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? It is probably complex, but as I said, could vary for each engine tested. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? > > What other factors affect EGT? The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone to construct. I'm not an EE guru, but maybe there are some people reading who could build this circuitry themselves for MUCH less. If so, I would think that it would be very cost effective in checking distribution. For fine tuning mixture, you simply need the UEGO sensor, Or some other gas analyzer method which can give you an absolute reading of AFR. Seat of the pants, and trial and error still work well though. Steve ------------------------------ From: wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 16:18:14 EST Subject: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting My understanding is that (in general) the exhaust gas temperature is lower with a rich mixture and raises to a point as you get leaner, then starts to drop as you continue going lean. This may or may not be useful in trying to determine your AF ratio, but it is useful in determining when your pistons are about to seize in a two stroke. Polaris put a system on one of their production snowmobiles this year that monitors the exhaust gas temperature while you are at full throttle (like when racing across a lake). If the temperature gets dangerously high the monitor shuts down the ignition for an instant (like a rev limiter). Using a AFR sensor in a standard two stroke is not very practical as a mixture of burnt and unburned gets blown out the exhaust. I had considered using EGT feed back in a fuel injection system for two strokes to richen up the mixture if the temperature got to hot. I have read about a similar technique used by people who race two stroke motocross bikes in the desert. When they started to sense a lean condition, they would operate a finger controlled choke until the engine cooled a bit in order to prevent seizures. >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. The readout box, >which would give all 8 temps at once would cost about 2000-2500 to pay someone >to construct. You could by a 486 computer and data acquisition card for less then that and end up with something a lot more flexible for a DIYer. Starting Line Products sells an adjustable EGT monitor called a Stutter Box for sleds ($136US for single cylinder, $181 for twin, $227 for triple). They also sell reasonably priced EGT gauges starting at $51US (2") $68US (3"),and $34US for a probe. SLP is at http://www.srv.net/shop/slp/slp.html email: slp@xxx.net Royal Distributing (800-265-2970) also sells these gauges (3") $150CAN with a probe. Omega Engineering (800-TC-OMEGA) sells MANY different types of thermocouple probes and gauges as well. It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same temperature. There are many simple, documented circuits for reading thermocouples if you feel up to constructing one. Will McGonegal Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada wmcgonegal@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: broberg@xxx.ca (Robert Broberg) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting > How does the mixture affect EGT? Do lean mixtures produce lower or higher > temps than rich ones? When I received my flight training in an aircraft with a manual mixture control, I was taught to lean the mixture for cruise: starting with "full rich", lean until the EGT reaches a peak and then richen the mixture until the EGT drops ~50 F below peak. The peak EGT is at some point slightly richer than stoichiometric, and is the point of maximum power. Some pilots recommend running somewhat lean of peak EGT for maximum economy, ie. at stoichiometric. The EGT drops off rapidly when leaning past stoichiometric. Because the training aircraft only had one EGT probe (tied to one cylinder), richening the mixture slightly after reaching peak EGT accounts for cylinders that may run leaner (and hotter), and generally it's safer to run on the cool side. > Can you determine if you are at stoich with this method (with any accuracy)? > Is there a linear relationship between EGT and AFR or is it a complex > function? Unfortunately the EGT curve is rather flat near stoich, so it is hard to pin point with high accuracy. The relationship is not linear. > Is this a practical/effective/reliable way to adjust mixture? Is it only > useful at WOT, or does it maintain some validity at all throttle settings? Piston aircraft have been using this method (manually) for years. The mixture adjustment is usually done at part throttle, except at high altitude where the throttle is wide-open anyway. "Full rich" mixture is recommended for WOT at lower altitudes, to keep the CHT down. Rob Broberg broberg@xxx.ca AFR = air/fuel ratio CHT = cylinder head temperature EGT = exhaust gas temperature stoichiometric = at chemically ideal AFR ------------------------------ From: Bruno! Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:14:10 +1100 (EDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal@xxx.ca wrote: > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You can > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > temperature. Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, to compensate for the possible change in temperature. Bruno. ( u933234@xxx.au ) "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" ------------------------------ From: "Brandon L. Walters" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:36:12 -0600 Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT mixture/Tcouples - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB104B.2D4AF7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >The last time I checked, 8 thermocouples ran about $240. That's for nice ones w/connectors, right? FWIW, I like to buy the thermocouple wire on a 100' roll, from Omega or Marlin, and make my own. For really hot work, like heat treat furnaces, headers, etc, it's nice to have a friend with a TIG set, then you can (with practice) make very nice round bead junctions with type K wire. Just give it several twists so you can burn back 'till it sticks, before it pops back open. If you accept more error, extension grade T-Couple wire is cheaper. Fastening the bead under a washer or something would be cheaper than buying a probe tip or well. If your amplifier is in a cool place, and the exhaust is so hot, maybe you could get by just reading the millivolts and process that. An Alternate Source, for thermocouples, wire, and probes: Marlin Mfg. Corp 12404 Triskett Rd. 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When that's said, I was just >wondering if anybody has got some tips of parts (I've read about >chiptuning!) I can easily modify or replace (Also the shops who >supply them (I live in Europe)). If it demands special knowledge >please tell me, or I'll probably ruin my engine. > >Thomas. > The GTI will gain absolutely _nothing_ from a chip change. In australia, several of the companies in the 'chipping' market have got their fingers burnt on GTI's by claiming up to 10Kw improvements. The biggest gain found (by independant testing) was from advancing the ignition timing 2 degrees, and it only gave couple of Kw above 7000rpm. The GTI engine is probably the most highly tuned (as standard) car engine you will ever find. Michael Fawke fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 19:35:26 MDT Subject: Re: Long returns!!! > To those people that cut and paste two paragraphs from a previous listing, Or worse, don't cut and paste at all... > just to add one or two sentences, please quit. Hear! Hear! I second this comment, especially directed at those who do not separate the reply from the body of the message. Squinting through 3 screenfuls of previously read messages to find the one liner is BORING! While we're bitchin, another pet peeve of mine is regarding line length. Please limit line length on your editors to 60-70 columns to prevent the one word every-other-line. Also, ensure that your editor is set to put a return char at the end of a line, my mail system crashes real good when it receives an 1824 character line. I hope this doesn't piss anyone off, it's not meant to. Just have a little consideration for the shrinking bandwidth on the Internet, and our poor tired ol' eyes... regards dn - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca Datalog Technology Inc. Bang: calgary!debug!dlogtech!darrell Calgary, Alberta, Canada Voice: +1 (403) 243-2220 Fax: +1 (403) 243-2872 @ + < __/ "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Andrew Dalgleish Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 14:21:00 S Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting On Wednesday, 13 March 1996 12:14, owner-diy_efi-outgoing wrote: > On Tue, 12 Mar 1996 wmcgonegal@xxx.ca wrote: > > It is not overly difficult to construct a thermocouple conditioning circuit. > > One only needs an amplifier and a cold junction compensation circuit. You > can > > even do away with the compensation if your circuit is always at the same > > temperature. > > Is it practical to, put the cold junction into a lot of insulation, eg > shove it into a giant block of polystyrene foam , or in a thermos > bottle(?) and tuck it under the dash somewhere? in the extremes of heat > and cold it may help to measure the temp of the juction with a thermistor, > to compensate for the possible change in temperature. I have seen this done using a thermos full of iced water. The trouble is the ice melts. I guess it would be ok for short periods of time, like drag racing. You could use solid state cooling, but that's fairly expensive. Another possibility is to heat your cold junction (e.g. with a power transistor) to a *known* temperature which is hotter than ambient, but less than the hot junction temperature. You have to contend with the chicken and egg here. How do you measure the cold junction temperature in order to regulate it? I guess the real question is how much will this improve the measurement accuracy over just using ambient? > > Bruno. ( u933234@xxx.au ) > > "If you've gotta go, go with a smile" > > Regards, Andrew Dalgleish Senior Software Engineer Axon Research, Pty Ltd 6 Wallace Ave, Toorak, VIC 3142 AUSTRALIA Tel +61-3-9826-5538 Fax +61-3-9824-0083 ------------------------------ From: dapiper@xxx.net (David Piper) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 00:58:35 -0500 Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting? >Does anyone have comments on how egt temps change with thermocouple >placement and what max limits may be????. The turbo mfr suggests 1750 max >inlet temp. I observed 1300 F at the exh port during cruise, light load and max of 1450 at 15 psig boost intercooled on a Datsun L28 motor. I think anything above that on a stainless valve is asking for trouble. TurboDave Less Maintenance, More Performance. ------------------------------ From: TAR Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:03:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: M68000 family processors Hello fellow tinkerers: I am a recent graduate of Mechanical engineering from the University of Alberta, up here in Canada. I was hoping to glean some information regarding m68k processors as EFI controllers. Specifically, I am looking for information on sensor interface with the chip. I am not familiar with specific sensor outputs ie) does an O2 sensor change a resistance value with changing AFR? or does it produce it's own voltage output? Is the output a linear relationship? How about knock sensors?, MAF sensors? etc. I understand Motorolla makes a chip, the M68332 which is specifically configred for EFI uses. Is this true? I am proficient at M68k family assembly language, but I am not familiar with PAL's, PIA's PIC's and the like. Perhaps someone could point me in the right direction; FTP sites, books, web sites, personal experience etc. Any info you could give me would be greatly appreciated. I request this info so I may make an EFI system for my project car, a 1972 Toyota Celica. I have already designed IRS and fully adjustable suspension front and back. Future plans include Buick 231 V6, 5 speed stick, distributorless ignition with rev limiter and traction control, and of course EFI! Thanks a million gang. Todd- ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Todd Ratke E-mail: tratke@xxx.ca or: ratke@xxx.ca ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ------------------------------ From: TAR Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 23:23:03 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: Re[2]: EGT for mixture setting Interesting problem, I have an idea, it should produce acceptable results, but you will have to compensate for the offset voltage produced from the cold end of your thermistor not being @ 0C, this is not too difficult. How about placing the cold end of the thermistor in the coolant stream, preferable close to the thermostat? It won't give extremely accurate results, and it'll be way outta whack before the engine is warm, but the output should be within +/- 50F. The output will undoubtedly be innacurate as an absolute temp reading, how far off depending of course, on the accuracy of your thermostat, but if you are just looking for peak EGT, this should work. It sure would ease the problem of trying to maintain an ice bath, which is not wholly practical for daily use. Any feedback? Todd- |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| From: Todd Ratke e-mail: 7304-83Ave tratke@xxx.ca Edmonton, Alberta -or- T6B-0G6 ratke@xxx.ca Ph: (403) 465-4036 |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:39:50 -0800 Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting the 50*f produces more power than peak egt i was told to NEVER run lean of peak because it can cause valve and cylinder overheating how about measuring head temp . the extra fuel is used to improve valve cooling. if no egt is availible leaning to roughness and then richen till she runs smooth works fine with a cs prop it works fairly well because the tach will not show anything below a dramatic power loss summit automotive has some fairly low cost egt units in there latest catalog. for much less than aircraft types. ------------------------------ From: "SANDY" Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:28:17 UTC-2 Subject: Re: EGT for mixture setting > cylinders. Second, in order to get *any* correlation between mixture and > EGT temp, you'd have to check with a Horiba lambda sensor. And that is > assuming that such a correlation would exist and give you consistant results. Where are Horiba sensors obtainable. We tried a phone no that was given in Turbo mag, and the number didn't seem to exist. Does anyone have a phone or fax # or e-mail address? Sandy ====================================================================== DR. S.M. WELTAN DEPT OF PHYSIOLOGY Tel. No: (021) 406-6507 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN Fax No: (021) 47-7669 MEDICAL SCHOOL SOUTH AFRICA e-mail:sweltan@xxx.za ====================================================================== ------------------------------ From: Mark Boxsell Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 19:45:05 +1000 (EST) Subject: Postscript viewer ? Can anyone suggest software to view *.ps (postscript) files that are found on the web site. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #75 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".