DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 21 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 082 In this issue: Re: Alternate fuel EFI RE:Stainless steel valves Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type BMW 323 Injection Re: Alternate fuel EFI RE:Stainless steel valves RE:Stainless steel valves 45 DCOE throttle bodies Re: Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type Re: Alternate fuel EFI BLACKBIRD RE:Stainless steel valves/titanium valves Re: BMW 323 Injection See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Boxsell Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 20:13:30 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Alternate fuel EFI At 09:40 AM 20/03/96 +1000, you wrote: > >Ford (Australia) offers an LPG conversion which uses the standard injectors >(multi-point) to inject LPG. The injectors have a slot cut in the side of >them and a second fuel rail fits over the outside. Liquid LPG comes from >the tank and goes through the slot with unused LPG flowing out throught >the normal fuel rail. I'm not quite sure how they do this last part.... >The standard ECU is shut down and a second ECU is used - developed by >Inject Racing Developments (Melbourne, Australia). The overall package >was developed by Tickfords Engineering, but most LPG conversion centres >are now making this available. > >Michael Fawke >fawkacs@xxx.au > > Michael, Tickfords (and/or Ford) DO NOT SELL the Biocom system. The system Tickfords sells is a normal mixer type deal. The people who took over Biocom (I can't remember their name) had to redesign the ECU that Injec did because it wasn't doing the job. Ford (Australia) have tested the system at various times and have given minor support. I am not trying to give you a hard time however you should get your facts right before broadcasting stuff that goes all over the world. regards, Mark Boxsell MRB Design. ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 14:39:11 +0500 Subject: RE:Stainless steel valves "Someone wrote about titanium valves.I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) They have a golden-looking finish. The best currently used valve material is Inconel..." No, we have run real titanium valves. Be careful with the word 'best'. Inconel isn't light like titanium and therefore usuited for high rpm use. I don't remember the properties of Ti either, except to say that it was strong enough for the Blackbird. That said, it's funny how that plane leaked fuel until skin warmed up... Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: TLEAKE@xxx.com (Tom Leake) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:13:16 -0500 Subject: Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type I am trying to work through a little problem with my van. I am hoping some on the DIY-EFI list might help. I have a 83 Dodge Van I which I have installed an A518 Transmission (the big dodge OD automatic). When I installed the unit I discussed the lockup with a Mechanic who indicated that it would not hurt the trans to leave the TQ "unlocked up". I have since found from a transmission specialist that this is not true of this transmission. I can use a manual lockup switch, but since my wife drives the vehicle also and does not want to bother with details I need a more automated method. Is anyone aware of a dedicated lockup controller (not part of a complete Engine management system). It appears from the the Jeff Hartman bookd that I could use a DFI controller and convert the vehicle to a complete system, At the moment I am not prepared to invest in the complete EFI system (unless I could get a DFI controller very inexpensively). The other question is about EFI throttle bodies that match WEBER 45MM DCOE pattern. Are there any production vehicles that use a compatible throttle body, or is there a supplier that sells a such a beast. I have seen some pictured in Hartman's book, but the supplier was'nt clear to me. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks, Tom Leake ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:43:51 -0500 Subject: BMW 323 Injection This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. Any ideas where to start looking? Sandy ------------------------------ From: Michael Fawke Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:23:58 +1000 Subject: Re: Alternate fuel EFI At 08:13 PM 20/3/1996 +1000, you wrote: >Michael, > Tickfords (and/or Ford) DO NOT SELL the Biocom system. The >system Tickfords sells > is a normal mixer type deal. The people who took over Biocom (I can't >remember their name) had to redesign the ECU that Injec did because it >wasn't doing the job. >Ford (Australia) have tested the system at various times and have given >minor support. >I am not trying to give you a hard time however you should get your facts >right before broadcasting stuff that goes all over the world. > > regards, > Mark Boxsell > MRB Design. O.K., we all bow to your greater knowlege.... I saw a TV presentation on this system which I am sure was produced by Ford (the TV presentaion that is). Duncan, a friend of mine, is a close friend of the guy who developed the Inject Box (he only built it to run his Sports Sedan Corolla, so no prizes for complexity. The original development unit is now fitted to Duncan's Corolla). I was talking to Duncan about the direct LPG injection and he told me how Inject were the ones who developed the box for it. No mention of Biocom. When Ford started fitting LPG through Tickfords, I assumed this was the direct injection system, because I am sure that the original TV bit mentioned Tickfords. O.K., I was wrong. BTW, a woman I work with had her Fairlane converted to this system last year (from her description of what they fitted), and one of the 'petrol head' magazines did an article about six months ago on converting to this system and showed pictures of all the steps involved in fitting it. Michael Fawke fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 17:43:30 -0600 Subject: RE:Stainless steel valves At 09:29 AM 3/20/96 MET, you wrote: > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------- Speaking of Inconel, I was considering purchasing some pre-cast alignment fixtures for a #6 oil fired super critical boiler. All vendors of this product agreed that a 50% nickle / 50% chrome alloy would be the most resistant metal to use at a 2,500 F furnace gas temp. I don't know what titanium would cost as a 2" x 4" x 24" rough cast bar but the 50/50 was about $600.00 each. GMD ------------------------------ From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:58:23 +1100 Subject: RE:Stainless steel valves >I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) >They have a golden-looking finish. Titanium Nitride is wear resistant coating now commonly found on cutting tools, etc. It is quite a thin coating, really. Stellite (cobalt based alloy) is an alloy more commonly used for valve seat faces. > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) >to resist air-friction at Mach 23 and more. It is temperatur stabil >up to 1200 C.(I hope I remember right). Today they use it for >race car exthaust-pipes and big-diesel valves. It contains more >then 50% of nichel. (Our metallurgist would know exact values?) Inconel is actually a brand name for a range of Nickel based 'super alloys' (eg Inconel 718), but there are also iron and cobalt based super alloys (examples being Incoloy 800 and Stellite 6B respectively). 1200C is right at the upper limit for the conventional super alloys and at these temperatures no significant load could be carried. Generally, 950C is regarded as the upper limit for load carrying applications. These materials form the bulk for application in aircraft gas turbine hot end components (eg combustion cans, turbine blades, etc.). These materials are *very* expensive and their use in ICE's of any description would be rare to say the least (the Stellite application to valves is the only one I can think of). >TiN-coating a valve has similar functions as hard chroming. In the sense that it is basically a coating for wear resistance, yes. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 ------------------------------ From: Jim Steck <72614.557@xxx.com> Date: 20 Mar 96 19:55:38 EST Subject: 45 DCOE throttle bodies >>The other question is about EFI throttle bodies that match WEBER 45MM DCOE pattern. Are there any production vehicles that use a compatible throttle body, or is there a supplier that sells a such a beast. I have seen some pictured in Hartman's book, but the supplier was'nt clear to me. >>Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks, Tom Leake Electromotive has DCOE type throttle bodies (40, 42, 45, 48, 50 and 55) and fuel rails - I don't have a price sheet on those parts. Electromotive, Inc. 14004-J Willard Road Chantilly, VA 22021 (703) 378-2444 FAX (703) 378-2448 TWM also has DCOE type throttle bodies, though I don't know if they have a 45 TWM Induction 325 Rutherford Street Goleta, CA 93117 (800) 331-4865 FAX (805) 683-6640 - -Jim Steck ------------------------------ From: markus@xxx.com (Markus Lien) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:21:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Help with Torque converter lockup controller /Weber type > When I installed the unit I discussed the lockup with a Mechanic who > indicated that it would not hurt the trans to leave the TQ "unlocked up". >I have since found from a transmission specialist that this is not true of > this transmission. I am not familliar with the dodge equipment but the GM T700 R4 (overdrive trans) increases the oil flow through the trans cooler while the lockup is engaged. >I can use a manual lockup switch, but since my wife drives the vehicle > also and does not want to bother with details I need a more automated > method. Is anyone aware of a dedicated lockup controller (not part of a > complete Engine management system). I opted for the switch on the dash but did come across a factory system from GM used on the first couple of years that the T700 was available in a pickup. This system is simply a vacuum switch and (I think) a WOT switch. I did not chase this down much because I was comfortable with a toggle switch But if you find a good parts counter guy he will be able to help you out. I believe the year this was used was around '85 or '86. Overdrive tranny's really perk up the vintage iron! Markus ------------------------------ From: markus@xxx.com (Markus Lien) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:21:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Alternate fuel EFI >What the heck kind of a mixer is this? Thought I'd seen em all... Vialle mixer, my description of it is a little slanted as I am offended that I actually puchaced such a poor system. >All propane mixers suck! I haven't found one yet that does a decent job >of it. Tried Impco, OHG, and now I'm running a Century mixer, on my 350 I first came in contact with this TechnoCarb company because the manufactuer a fantastic mixer. Their design uses the throttle plate from a Quadrajet carb and places it under a set of 4 large diameter anterior vented (not positive about the terminology) verturi. this system is incredibly accurate but I would be suprised if it even flows 450 CFM :-( on my 383 power flattens out at about 2500 RPM. Part number I used 4SS350 > >> I eventually came across (I'll call it an Electronic fuel control >> system) from a company called Technocarb. This system uses an O2 > >I'd be interested in some more details on this system, costs, who sells >it, etc. > John Carter is the founder and head engineer at Technocarb (604) 854-6264 I believe they have an 800 number now but I can't find it. John is very easy to talk to and eager to chat about projects and ideas (wonder if he has an E-mail account ;-)). They refer to their system as a "feed back" system refering to the fact it uses an O2 sensor to monitor AFR. Part number I used is EFS-400P. They build a TPS emulator for 75 bucks but it just uses RPM, therefore resulting in bad throttle response. I just mounted a TPS on my throttle plate and built a regulated 5 volt power supply to feed it. Throttle response is incredible! > >Damn, 18 MPG is just a dream with me, my engine gives about 12 around >the city... > I cheat! Low rear-end gearing boosts arount town mileage, adding an overdrive trans doubled my highway from 9 to 18. > BTW, you can buy rebuild kits for the vaporizer for around 30 >bucks, beats hell out of buying a new one. Piece of cake to install, too. > You guys with your Empco vaporizers! I'm green with envy, Vialle dosn't want anyone to open their evaporators. >The current idea I'm working on is to use the fuel in the gaseous state, >using half a standard vaporizer, (remove the fuel pressure regulator guts) >and regulating it with a standard gas regulator to somewhere around 50-60 >PSI (maybe higher). Feed this into a standard dual TBI type injector, and >see what happens. The higher-than-normal fuel pressure should allow the >injector to supply enough fuel (even though it's designed for liquid fuel) >but not so high as to affect the opening time. > I see my description of my Technocarb system was weak. what you have described here is very much a Vialle evaporator coupled with the Technocarb feedback control system! the electronically controlled power screw functions the way the TBI would with your plan. Rather than holding back a positive presure from the vaporizer it just restricts vacuum from the mixer. Maybe you have comeup with the improvement I need in my system! the Vialle evap could very easily be modified to supply a positive presure to the power screw. A couple of PSI would be sufficient as the power screw can open to a .75" orifice. I could then replace the mixer with something which simply mixes the air and vapor rather than generating a vacuum signal >> The engine is a 350 stroked to 383 using Kieth Black silv-o-lite > >Yeah, when my 350 bites it I'd like to go with a 383 conversion... > The 383 is a torque factory! real fat till the tiny mixer chokes the thing out! Not cheap though, my engine builder went all out, Stainless valves, Competition Cams propane performance cam, shaved heads and used the long connecting rods with the low deck KB pistons. $3400 and I wrote a piece software for capturing data from his dyno and located 3 extra 400 crankshafts. Add to this the money I've poured into fuel systems and I think I should have bought a multport 350 from a wrecked Z-28 ;-) !! > Propane should be the fuel of choice, at least here in Canada, >an' it's CHEEP! I been running it for years, and bitching about the lack Yea! except here in Saskatchewan where the ^%$^%$*#(*&*@ retailers are price fixing, propane has the same taxes here as Alberta but I'm paying $0.40 / Litre! (Ranting, Raving, Stomping) Markus ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 20:50:23 PST Subject: BLACKBIRD >"Someone wrote about titanium valves.I think you mean >Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) They >have a golden-looking finish. The best currently used valve >material is Inconel..." > >No, we have run real titanium valves. Be careful with the word >'best'. Inconel isn't light like titanium and therefore usuited >for high rpm use. I don't remember the properties of Ti either, > except to say that it was strong enough for the Blackbird. >That said, it's funny how that plane leaked fuel until skin >warmed up... > >Ed Hernandez >Ford Motor Company >ehernan3@xxx.com About the Blackbird leaking, the skin of the aircraft (it has wet tanks) was made with super thin slits in them. When the airframe heated up at speed, the titanium expanded and forced these slits closed. Without them, the skin would buckle at high temperature. You have to admit, it takes balls to design a plane with holes in the fuel tank! Clint ccorbin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544" Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 20:34:12 PST Subject: RE:Stainless steel valves/titanium valves >Someone wrote about titanium valves. >I think you mean Titan-nitrid coated (once seen in a Harley sportster) Nope, they mean TITANIUM valves. They are extremely light weight and have a very high temperature resistance (the reason the SR-71 was made out of it) > The best currently used valve material is "Inconel", once >used in Bell's X-15 aircraft (or rocket?) >to resist air-friction at Mach 23 and more. It is temperatur stabil I don't know what the best current valve material is (personally, I would like to see popet valves go the way of the flat-head engines), but the X-15 only ran in the Mach 6 to Mach 7 range. Currently, there is no (that "they" are talking about) AIRCRAFT that can go Mach 23. All of the spacecraft pass through Mach 23 on the way to orbit, but they are not aircraft. And, they do not spend much time at speed in air. NASA was working on the X-30 (or is it the X-31?) Mach 25 aircraft, but the material problems were killing them. Don't know what happened to that project. Sorry this was so far off base. Clint ccorbin@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Russ Highton Jr." Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:22:11 -0500 Subject: Re: BMW 323 Injection At 09:43 AM 3/20/96 -0500, you wrote: >This is a change of pace for me, I just got a 1980 BMW 323i Alpina with a >great 2.3L 6 cylinder! One problem with it however, is that the idle is >unstable. It will 'motor boat' up and down, usually stalling out. Other >times it is stable. I haven't as yet found out much about the system, I >think it is a bosch j-tronic, it is all mechanical, fuel distributer, etc. >Any ideas where to start looking? > >Sandy > > > I don't know exactly what is wrong with your car, but if you run it by the guys on the BMW digest mailing list(email me if you want info its great) they will surely be able to help. Russ Highton Jr. reh5@xxx.edu 1982 320i 55k ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #82 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".