DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 26 March 1996 Volume 01 : Number 087 In this issue: Injectors Re: Injectors Re: LPG injection Re: CNG/LNG [none] 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system LPG + low octane pump gas Re: Injectors GM serial line communications Re: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system Re: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system 4.3 multi-port fuel injection EFI for Bosch mech. injection Re: Injectors Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 08:47:43 EST Subject: Injectors Does anyone have any flow rate information on various injectors (by part #, make/model/engine application) it doesn't appear to be the kind of thing available at the local auto parts store. The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. The MC68HC11 and signal conditioning circuits are funtioning properly. I'm a happy guy. It does appear that another injector might be more appropriate, as the one installed now is far too big flowwise. As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical spray. Anyone have any suggestions? Cliff Ducharme ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 07:51:21 GMT Subject: Re: Injectors >As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI >and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the >injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" >diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... it needs more pressure to form a spray if you have a decent injector don't wory too much about pulse widths down around the 1.5 ms range, I use 400cc/min injectors on my 323, and the pulse width at cruise is around 1.1-1.25ms in closed loop. Fred ------------------------------ From: gtk110@xxx.edu Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:30:03 -0500 Subject: Re: LPG injection > >A couple of you have mentioned that when propane (lpg) is injected into >the manifold, the manifold soon freezes. What about circulating engine >coolant around the base of the manifold where the injectors are mounted? >i.e. possibly by running another line from coolant system, in a similar >way a car's interior heater works, or having another water system which >runs across the exhaust, pumped by an electric pump, temperature regulated >by pump speed, fan, etc. The latter system i was thinking of using for a >hot water demisting system for when the going gets cold. Just by reading this over, I like the idea of using the exhaust to warm the injectors, but i would not use water due to the localized boiling that may occur at the interface of the water/metal exhaust barrier. There would also be a great amount of pressure generated with plain water....I wonder if some type of oil would be any better. You could also impliment some type of thermostat to ensure that the injectors did not become too hot....Just some thoughts...any ideas anyone? Gannon gtk110@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Seth Allen Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:57:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: CNG/LNG Hi all, I am a student at Western Washington University's Vehicle Research Institute. I joined this mailgroup to hopefully learn how to build an EFI system for gasoline, but the discussion seems to be EFI for gaseous fuels. That's cool too... we have a Chrysler Neon here that runs on CNG. It has a filament wrapped carbon fiber CNG tank. good for 3600 psi maybe 4000, but we don't (can't) pump it that high. It also happens to be an electric hybrid... We ran 14.4:1 compression last year, but NOx emissions were high so we have stock pistons now. Right now we are "fooling" the gasoline EFI brain. It goes tooo rich on full throttle enrichment and displaces air in the intake ports. (We think). A fun idea would be to add Nitrous oxide. Not too practical though. Having trouble with a gasoline O2 sensor on CNG and the heat required to run it. It is a 3 wire O2 sensor, but the preheater isn't enough at idle. We are currently looking for a liquid fuel injection setup for propane for our propane minivan. The current strategy is impco carbs.... Vialle didn't want to donate any propane EFI equipment, and it was unclear that they had an adaptable unit. If anyone has any input or questions, just ask, or tell. Thanks for the bandwidth, Seth Allen WWU, Bellingham WA, USA > > While on the topic of CNG/LPG... > > There is a fleet of port injected CNG taxis running around in Brisbane, > Australia as well as some in New Zealand. For our single fuel application, > the compression ratio was raised from about 9:1 to well over 15:1, and the > resulting peak efficiency increased from about 30% to over 40%. Natural gas > in Melbourne is relatively consistent (but not available in CNG form) with > a RON of 140-142. In Brisbane and NZ the methane ratio can be as low as 90% > lowering the RON to about 130. > > To test various methane / propane ratios, we recently installed a second set > of gas injectors with an adjustable pulsewidth proportional to the base > injector pulse from the Ford EECV ECU. Could this be the ultimate dual fuel > combination? > > The project was set back a little last week when the dyno drive shaft flex > coupling decided to let go and hurl itself through the bell housing and > steel safety cover, across the lab, through a window and into the car park > onto an unoccupied Nissan. Luckily no one was hurt, but the mechanical > casaulties include the drive shaft, engine crankshaft, dyno shaft, > bell housing (now lots of little pieces of aluminium) and safety cover. > > LPG in Australia can have as much as 50% butane which lowers the octane rating > to just under 100. Unfortunately this is little better than the leaded fuel > that about half the cars on our roads still use. > > rambling on... > Robert > > -- > Robert Dingli r.dingli@xxx.au > Power and Control Systems (+613) 9344 7966 > Thermodynamics Research Labs (+613) 9344 7712 > University of Melbourne, AUSTRALIA > ** he who dies with the most toys, wins ** > ------------------------------ From: kurt.bilinski@xxx.COM (Kurt Bilinski) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 13:03:27 -0800 Subject: [none] I'm planning on building a tube frame, carbon fiber, car resembling a Mini Cooper or maybe an R5 Turbo. The drivetrain will be either a Nissan SE-R 2.0l DOHC 140hp or a Honda VTEC Prelude engine (190hp, 2.2liter). Altered factory computers are available aftermarket... for a price. Figure $200 for a used EFI computer, and $700 for the aftermarket mods... and I'm thinking, build my own. How hard could it be... Anyway, I'm new here, I'll have a look around and see what you guys are up to before asking questions. Kurt Bilinski ------------------------------ From: Ryan Harrell Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:33:48 -0600 Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be obsessed with V8 engines). It would have to be flexible because I plan to take that engine, bore the cylinders to 4 1/8", install 18 degree heads from Chevrolet, and add a nitrus system to my '84 S-10. I'm hoping that this will be cheaper than a $5000 EFI blower system as well as ride better. Ryan Harrell cyborne@xxx.com "Of coarse you know, you could poke your EYE out with that thing." ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 17:47:14 -0600 Subject: LPG + low octane pump gas Has any one herd of using low octane pump gas plus LPG or CNG as a possible octane booster? GMD ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:23:48 -0600 Subject: Re: Injectors At 08:47 AM 3/25/96 EST, Cliff Ducharme wrote: > >The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual >control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. ============================================================================ ======= Cheers Buddy, there's nothing like slaping a cast aluminium or iron baby on the butt and hearing those first sounds infant machinery. Are you sure that the injector you are using is not fouled? If it's a bendix or bosh, top entry type injector try this: Remove the plastic cap. The injector pintel should be exposed (if it's from a late model car, the pintel might not be exposed). Clean it with old tooth brush and some carb cleaner. Spray inside of the injector while pressing the pintel. I disected a '76 caddy injector once. This was a top feed bendix type. Not difficult at all. I can see lots of problems with trying to machine the orfice without special equipment. If you send me a postage paid self addressed box, I send you a couple of the caddy injectors. I think you would give them a good home. Good luck dude, GMD ------------------------------ From: wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Date: Mon, 25 Mar 96 20:47:12 EST Subject: GM serial line communications At the end of January there was some interest in reading the 8000 baud GM serial data line. I mentioned at the time that we had done this at our lab using an PC serial port. There is some minor circuitry involved in the interface to invert the signals. You also need to set up the serial port for this nonstandard baud rate. I wrote a program to set up a nonstandard baud rate. I am helping someone set up this communication link and I know there were others interested. If anybody else one wants a copy of the program to set up the correct baud rate or some of the source code I can forward the information to them. Perhaps there is a place that I can post this in the DIY EFI archives. Will McGonegal wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Mobile Sources Emissions Division Environment Canada ------------------------------ From: Seth Allen Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:23:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system The answer is yes.(See below). Haltech makes a system that will drop in and is EEPROM reprogrammmable for maps. Depending on the application, up to 30 psi boost is compatible with the sensors. For GM in particular, it is a plug in set. Between $1000-1600 depending on how many bells and whistles. You can control idle air stepper motors, torque converter lockup and all kinds of neat stuff with enough money. Seth Allen, WWU, WA, USA On Mon, 25 Mar 1996, Ryan Harrell wrote: > Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:33:48 -0600 > From: Ryan Harrell > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system > > I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has > a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there > is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a > manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be > obsessed with V8 engines). It would have to be flexible because I plan to > take that engine, bore the cylinders to 4 1/8", install 18 degree heads from > Chevrolet, and add a nitrus system to my '84 S-10. I'm hoping that this will > be cheaper than a $5000 EFI blower system as well as ride better. > > Ryan Harrell > cyborne@xxx.com > > "Of coarse you know, you could poke your EYE out with that thing." > ------------------------------ From: Charles Morgan Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 18:51:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection system On 3/25/96 -0600, Ryan Harrell wrote: >I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) has >a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. I believe there >is one, but I have no information on one. If so, does anybody know of a >manufacturer who makes computers for these engines (Everybody seems to be >obsessed with V8 engines)... The turbocharged 4.3L V6 that Chevy used in the Typhoon/Cyclone models is true multi-port, but getting one of these would be darn near impossible (I've tried). The 4.3L Vortec V6 introduced by Chevy in 1992 is called "Central Multi-Port Fuel Injection" although it uses a single injector with poppet valves at each intake port. It's performance, however, is very adequate. Turbo City (714-997-1196) sells a multi-port kit for non-Vortec 4.3L V6s; I beleive they use a GM computer. Charlie Morgan ------------------------------ From: Jim Steck <72614.557@xxx.com> Date: 25 Mar 96 23:27:29 EST Subject: 4.3 multi-port fuel injection >I was wondering if anybody knows if Chevrolet (or any aftermarket vendor) >has a multi-port fuel injection system available for a 4.3L V6. Haltech's competition is : Electromotive 14004-J Willard Drive Chantilly, VA 22024 1-800-843-3889 They also use GM sensors. I've built three engines with their TEC systems . . . including two 300 horsepower 2.0 liter turbocharged Alfa Romeos. Their system has been very reliable (no failures in 100,000 cumulative miles) and is very flexible. Prices are similar to Haltech. - -Jim Steck AutoComponenti P.S. I want to add water injection to one of the turbos . . . anyone have any experience with nozzles and solenoids that will stand up to 50/50 water methanol mix? ------------------------------ From: Frank_Mallory@xxx.com (Frank Mallory) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:32:59 -0500 Subject: EFI for Bosch mech. injection Does anybody have any info on adapting the late-'60s Bosch mechanical injection to EFI? I understand it has been done in Germany. ------------------------------ From: tom sparks Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:55:20 -0600 Subject: Re: Injectors Hey Cliff: Here's something off of the O2 sensor page. Let me know if it helps. BTW, What kind of injector are you using now? Best regards, Thomas Sparks > >>From KEN_MOSHER@xxx.COM Tue Apr 20 15:21:53 1993 SUBJECT: Injectors I ran across the following information about injectors and thought it may be of general interest: Manufacturer Part # Flow @ 45 psi ================================================ Lucas 5208006 15.8 lbs/hr Lucas 5207011 23.9 lbs/hr Bosch (Stock GN) 0-280-150-218 29.8 lbs/hr Bosch (Supercoupe) 0-280-150-756 32.0 lbs/hr Bosch (Porsche) 0-280-150-213 33.0 lbs/hr Bosch 0-280-150-911 33.0 lbs/hr Lucas 5207009 33.2 lbs/hr Lucas 5207008 40.1 lbs/hr Bosch 0-280-150-803 40.0 lbs/hr Lucas 5107010 52.0 lbs/hr AC Rochester MSD 2014 72.0 lbs/hr Bendix (red) GM25500139 82.0 lbs/hr AC Rochester MSD 2015 96.0 lbs/hr Bendix (white) GM (alcohol) 180.0 lbs/hr This data was gathered from ATR's literature enclosed in their 7th injector kit. Also, they note that the rated flow is NOT at rail pressure. The value at 45 psi is the differential pressure across the injector. In other words, if the fuel pressure is 65 psi @ WOT and the boost is set at 20 psi, the differential pressure is 45 psi. At 08:47 AM 3/25/96 EST, you wrote: >Does anyone have any flow rate information on various injectors (by part #, >make/model/engine application) it doesn't appear to be the kind of thing >available at the local auto parts store. > >The EFI Briggs & Stratton LIVES! I fired it up on EFI last night under manual >control of the pulse width, and ran it for about 10 minutes. The MC68HC11 and >signal conditioning circuits are funtioning properly. I'm a happy guy. > >It does appear that another injector might be more appropriate, as the one >installed now is far too big flowwise. As it is, I'm only running about 10 PSI >and the pulse widths are down in the 3-6 ms range. The strange thing about the >injector is that the nozzle is plastic with a large (approximately .080" >diameter) straight orifice, and squirts a collinear stream, not a spray... > >I've considered reworking the orifice to reduce flow/generate a conical spray. > >Anyone have any suggestions? > > >Cliff Ducharme ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:17:55 -0800 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 Has anybody had any success with electronic port injected liquid propane with O2 sensor and turbos? How much compression/boost? What happens when you go to far? Is there such a thing as to far? >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >From: Darrell Norquay >Date: Sat, 23 Mar 96 16:44:21 MDT >Subject: CNG/LNG > >> I remember reading an article on natural gas injection that was put >> in a 302cid Ford Mustang which, incidentally, utilized the FACTORY ECU. I > >> I also recall that the stated octane rating of the gas is >> 130....could anybody verify this, and if so, why not run a 10:1 compression, >> bump the timing up a little, and run 10 psi of boost???(can't do that with > >Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) does have an octane rating somewhere near to >130 - you can run 25 degrees initial advance, and upwards of 35 total. >It's cheap, (at least here in Canada), and it has VERY low emissions. >Having said that, it is stored in tanks at up to 3000 PSI, which means >they are big, heavy, and they don't hold much fuel. Typically, range is >very limited. It's hard to find fuelling stations, (getting a bit easier) >and it takes half an hour to fill up. Plumbing and installation is very >expensive, all stainless hard tubing (no hoses allowed). Doesn't have as >high a specific energy rating (per lb) as gasoline, making fuel consumption >much higher. All in all rather impractical for a street vehicle. There's >no reason you can't run turbos and high compression with CNG, it's just >that nobody does... (Taxis, couriers, etc use it somewhat, and our local gas >company's service vehicles are all CNG - it figures) > >Propane (LPG), however, has a pretty good octane rating(110-115), is also >cheap, clean, and the tanks and plumbing are much lighter and less costly >since you only have to deal with a couple of hundred PSI. Tanks also hold >more fuel since it is in a liquid state instead of a gas, and you can get >it anywhere. Ideal fuel for use with turbos and superchargers. All in all >IT IS a good fuel for a street/high performance vehicle. > >Both fuels promote long engine life because of the cleaner combustion and >the fact that these fuels are not solvents like gasoline and don't wash the >lubricating oils off cylinder walls and valve guides, etc, thus prolonging >their life substantially. Half a million miles is not too unusual between >rebuilds on a propane engine, if it was built specifically for propane in >the first place... > >There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers... > >regards >dn > > >- -- > >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Darrell A. Norquay Internet: dn@xxx.ca > Datalog Technology Inc. Voice: (403) 243-2220 > Calgary, Alberta, Canada Fax: (403) 243-2872 > > "Absolutum Obsoletum" - If it works, it's obsolete >- ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 01:51:42 -0800 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #86 Awhile back a "calibrator" with the GM aurora-northstar group posted something. I'd like to see if I can get him to answer a couple of questions that I can't seem to get answers to. 1. Approx 20 years ago one of the GM engineers used a F.I. caddy 500 in a motorhome and supposedly attained some 27.?? mpg. I have some of this stuff and have never seen results even close, and don't really expect to. All that aside, any chance of getting a rundown on exactly what was done on this expieriment? 2. as one who knows just enough about engineering(I'm a dropout!) to be totally useless, I've noticed that while there seem to be dataloggers and dyno programs none appear to be integrated. With what is today available it would seem to me that a program and hardware should be available that could be strapped to a vehicle, keep a log of the conditions and output, and by varying timing and mixture determine optimum fuel mixture, spark timing, and shift points to achieve any specified performance goal. Has this been done? If so, by who? How long will it be before I can afford it?(I finally got something I've wanted for 30 years, a 46 hudson.-not!) ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #87 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".