DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 9 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 103 In this issue: Re: EEC-IV Questions DIY_EFI Digest V1 #101 Re:MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) Re:MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) RE: TEC RE: TEC Laughing gas on 5.0l mustang See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: gtk110@xxx.edu Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:55:07 GMT Subject: Re: EEC-IV Questions > >2) Do Ford dealers have the capability to check an EEC-IV "on the bench" >(out of the vehicle)? > >As stated above, I've tried to diagnose the vehicle using the internal >diagnostics, but I get no reply. The vehicle appears to be running in >"limp home" mode, and the sensors I've checked look okay (It's pretty >tight in an Escort's engine compartment) > > Corey Cole colec@xxx.edu ] Wow, for a guy who knows so much about mustang intakes and long rod engines and I6 4.9's, you sure dont' know jack about the computers... In reply, yes a Ford dealer can check the EEC-IV out of the car with a device known as a breaker box, and did you try checking the air meter( I think these have one.. you did'nt mention the year). These will implement the limp home mode anytime. Gannon "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels of his Mustang exploding on the highway like a slug from a .45... True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the night... This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" ------------------------------ From: "Ronald R Hoyt" Date: 08 Apr 1996 13:33:33 -0500 Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #101 - --PART.BOUNDARY.corona.493d.31695c1e.0001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline - -- see attachments -- - --PART.BOUNDARY.corona.493d.31695c1e.0001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline; filename=ATTACH01. DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 7 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 101 In this issue: Re: TEC National Semiconductor! B&S project RE: ATI Supercharging Re: ATI Supercharging RE: TEC Re: Karman Vortex MAF RE: Autronic See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Staff" Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:49:02 GMT Subject: Re: TEC > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > M>)\^(@X/`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` > M$ $```! ```#T``0````4```!213H@ > &`````!* > ` > end What is this shit, and what real use does it have? Stop sending this!!!!!!! Turn off that beatnik option it's lame.. Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:53:19 GMT Subject: National Semiconductor! Has every one checked out the National Semiconductor web page? They are by far the collest semiconductor manufacturer on the net!!! They have complete online data sheets and now you can even get samples from them online, yeah! I hate talking to some morron, repeating the part number a thousand times and even then getting rejected. At least this is fast and always right. Also it displays the manufactures suggested price so you can see just how bad of a shaft the retailer you use gives you!!!! Also is anyone interested in seeing the circuit diagram for my injector. It is complete, and I'm converting it to DXF so it's cross platform. I have it in TurboCAD format if anyone out there uses that. Thanks Jim Staff. ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 11:08:16 GMT Subject: B&S project Cliff Ducharme, What were the final specifications for you project? I remeber you said you had it working but then it blew your controller? Have you found out what happened, as it's really important if it is a Briggs & Stratton problem.. Also forgot to ask if you kept the standard fly wheel or replaced it with one more like a car flywheel? Cool Beans, Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: Billy-Bob Doughnut OBE Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 13:26:08 +-100 Subject: RE: ATI Supercharging - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB23BC.C6505D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not all that familiar with catcons, but I am pretty sure that they are used solely for reduction of unburned hydrocarbons and combustible products in the exhaust. After all, a catalyst by definition enhances or causes a chemical reaction to proceed faster, or initiates a reaction under conditions which it would not normally occur. Logic dictates that if you are running lean, there would be less combustible by-products, and the catcon would not have "fuel" to react with, thus the internal temperature of the catcon would be lower. (Jeez, I sound like Spock there :) If, however, you run rich, the catcon has an abundance of fuel, which would cause it to overheat and fuse it's internals. Some catcons have an auxiliary air input from the AIR system pump to provide additional oxygen to help combust unburned fuel, which would help to raise their internal temperature even more under rich conditions. I think this is a separate issue to exhaust gas temperature, which is generally higher under lean burning conditions, and lower with rich. The catcon is capable of GENERATING heat greater than the incoming EGT if it has fuel to react with. If you were running lean, EGT would be higher, but heat generated in the catcon would be lower, and vice versa. IMHO, the change in exhaust gas temperature due to rich or lean would be much less than the change in catcon internal temperature under the same conditions. The exhaust gasses consist mainly of the following TOXIC components before they reach the catalytic converter: Hydrocarbons (unburnt fuel), AND Carbon monoxide, Oxides of nitrogen. Generally, a lean mixture will result in hotter exhaust gasses, producing more oxides of nitrogen. A catalytic converter functions between 300degc and 800degc, yemperatures in excess of 800degc lead to a drop i catalyst activity - thermal aging - in the long run. At high temperatures the intermediate and precious metal layers fuse together or form large crystals (sintering or build up of mineral deposits). The result is a reduction in surface area and a drop in activity. Fresh air injection assists the post ignition thermal reaction, resulting in exhaust fumes containing fewer hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. This is usually used at start up ONLY, before the cat has reached its light off temperature (300degc). Exhaust gas recirculation is used to reduce the levels of oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust. This happens through a reduction in combustion temperature, out of the range where NOX can be formed. Also, some controll systems are able to monitor exhaust gas temperature by measuring the current which is supplied to the heated lamda probe in order to keep it at opperating temperature, adjusting fueling and ignition to compensate. - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB23BC.C6505D80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhEMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGMAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd pRUxAgDaEAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAABAAAcwAD8ST7EjuwFAAAgwAD8ST7EjuwEeAD0AAQAAAAUA AABSRTogAAAAAMDg - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB23BC.C6505D80-- ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:33:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: ATI Supercharging On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, ARTHUR OKUN wrote: > isnt duty cycle what the ecm really looks at how about a cheap micro > controlled duty cycle meter ? > No, in the old days of 1/2 carb and 1/2 cpu, there were solenoids that ran a metering rod and that had duty cycle, buts thats not anything remotely current. Frank ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 07:59:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: TEC On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Fred Miranda wrote: > > An altenative to Motec is Autronic, also from Australia. I have one in my Elan. > Can be had for $1100-1200US. Software around $50 I think. > 8 inj drivers with individual trims (sequential) > control for up to 4 coils (you supply drivers) > very good acceleration enrichment control > air temp correction that seems to work (in the TEC it causes problems due to > heat soak) > the list goes on Does Autronic have a web site or email address so we can get info???? ------------------------------ From: pjwales@xxx.net (Peter Wales) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 1996 19:17:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Karman Vortex MAF The Karman Vortex system needs an ultrasonic transmitter and receiver placed across the air passage. The output from the receiver is mixed with the input to get a beat signal which is the measure of air velocity. The air velocity is measured by creating vortices in the air stream and this is done by putting a triangular obstruction in the middle. Then the air flow sheds vortices proportionally to the speed of the air going through. It looks like this in section. |---| | |Receiver - -----------------------------|___|----------------------------- - -> /| / | @ @ Vortices :) - ->AIRFLOW / | \ | - -> \ | \|@ @ - -----------------------------|___|---------------------------- | | |---|Transmitter It only measures air speed and I have no idea how to calibrate it. The Mitsubishi system uses bypasses and only measures a percentage of the air going into the engine. It also has a honeycomb flow straightener in front of it to remove spurious vortices from the air flow. I hope this will give you wizards some ideas Peter Wales pjwales@xxx.net President Superchips Inc Chairman Superchips Ltd "Timing is everything" Superchips home page with all the answers http://www.superchips.com ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 23:14:53 GMT Subject: RE: Autronic >Does Autronic have a web site or email address so we can get info???? > No and unfortunatly they are not well represented here in the States. TAD the pro rally outfit in Illinois is your best bet for info. (thats who I deal with) For those interested, they are up on the "boost at idle" thing, in fact Autronic is working on this also. TAD (708)550 8116 ask for Murray Fred ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #101 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi". - --PART.BOUNDARY.corona.493d.31695c1e.0001-- ------------------------------ From: "Ronald R Hoyt" Date: 08 Apr 1996 14:03:42 -0500 Subject: Re:MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) ~From: gtk110@xxx.edu ~ Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:44:52 GMT ~> ~> ~From: Tommy.Palm@xxx.se ~> ~Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 11:27:43 -0500 ~> ~> ~only mathematics. Anyone interested?? I can supply formulas and Reinhold ~> ~diagrams. I never finshed the job ( lack of reasons) but had a working MAF ~> ~ready. ~> ~ ~> I presume you meant Reynolds when you referred to Reinholds in which case I am ~> ~If it's Reynolds number, fill me in! (abbreviated "Re", right?) ~ ~ ~ Gannon ~ Reynolds number is abbreviated with Re. It is a dimensionless quantity which relates a fluids viscosity with its velocity, density and flow length. Consequently it relates the manifold lengths with the fluid (A/F) in the manifold. ------------------------------ From: gtk110@xxx.edu Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:56:55 GMT Subject: Re:MAF sensor types (was re: Re: Sensor Questions?) > > > ~> > ~If it's Reynolds number, fill me in! (abbreviated "Re", right?) > ~ > > Reynolds number is abbreviated with Re. It is a dimensionless quantity > which relates a fluids viscosity with its velocity, density and flow > length. Consequently it relates the manifold lengths with the fluid > (A/F) in the manifold. > Not to be overlooked is the surface friction along the intake runners that can also be figured into the Re (I have taken Fluid Mechanics!) Gannon "Gripping the wheel, his knuckles went white with desire...the wheels of his Mustang exploding on the highway like a slug from a .45... True death... 400 horsepower, maximum performance piercing the night... This is BLACK SUNSHINE!" ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:01:01 -0600 Subject: RE: TEC My particular reasoning for not attempting to use a stock style box was pretty clear. I'm NOT an engineer and I didn't wish top build something that I wouldn't be able to get help with. What ECU should I have used for a twin turbo V8? In my DFI I've got abut $800 in it and I was able to drive it within hours of plugging in the box and would've been going quicker had the base programming been in the park. I'll admit I didn't have the thrill of fabbing a harness, raping a car in the junkyard, or rewriting a PROM chip. While all of that would've been well good and fine in my area (with the exception of Electromotive) no one seems really up to this sort of task. Heck I was being told to put a carb on it up until a year or two ago! Yech! had I the skills, time, and facilities I'd have done just as you've asked. I'd have found a GM (yuck) box, some wire, and maybe a knowledgeable person to do the code. Frankly I had none of that available either then or now really. It was worth it to me to spend a couple hundred and get something that would better meet my needs at the time without fighting gremlins at every turn (okay - I still fight them, just not as many!). - ---------- >From: John G. Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] Sent: Friday, April 05, 1996 12:38 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu; 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' Subject: RE: TEC At 09:10 AM 4/5/96 -0600, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: >They aren't the absolutely best this is true - however they're at least >close in the realm of affordability. While they were out of my range they >certainly didn't cost like some of the others! ===SNIP=== >was worried that the TEC would be obvious enough to fail visual - not so >with the DFI! > Why the dependence on aftermarket EFI for street or quasi-street applications? Aren't enough different stock units available to meet the needs of a given situation? And at a much lower (salvage) price? ????????????? begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@,!`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`&0!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```&,`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO M;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M``,P`0`` M`",```!D:7E?969I0&-O=6QO;6(N96YG+F]H:6\M5]E9FE 8V]U;&]M8BYE;F# $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0````P```!*5E! 45-) M+D-/30`#``80=O_?"P,`!Q#^!0``'@`($ $```!E````35E005)424-53$%2 M4D5!4T].24Y'1D]23D]4051414U05$E.1U1/55-%05-43T-+4U193$5"3UA7 M05-04D545%E#3$5!4DE-3D]404Y%3D=)3D5%4D%.1$E$241.5%=)4TA43P`` M```"`0D0`0```*4&``"A!@``A0H``$Q:1G6NJQ$S_P`*`0\"%0*H!>L"@P!0 M`O()`@xxx.W`N0'$P*# M-!+,%,@xxx.QC/,CPU-0* "H$-L0M@;F=X,3 S%% +"A5B M# %C$P! !=!Y( JQ=&ECSG4+8 7 &-!AL&\=T!C0`D =P&,A M@xxx.@"?!G"X )X 7 `'!D@2,`(&1I9&XG!4#5`_%H M(%%P(:!U`Q DP > =&@xxx.YW"& EX"3B8B"Q`F @L(4@86<1 MP"!H96PED!<#\"90(O!7)L)%0U7=(.!H)S(D@1& =B"P()&W)' ?,B#0= /P M`Z!T"'!A!N @5C@_(P`#H&VY'\I M`"1%(?(GYF0%$"J1+F&/*/(KD2GQ$: @;V8=T/T*0&P"? M01[R<27 _R$@)"$1@"1P,@,>L""P$U#B;PG 86UM'O(S4S'5 M]0JQ:R+R; ,@-) UP";B?R2U*G,R`B90!1 W43$19GT!H&(>\B#0$8$D``00 M+&D>@xxx.K %L1C0#G<%$" 3(-!04D]-^R*0)F!P M*3(#$""Q.40FLWTRS'P `@]S[C'K W`4@%D"$P+M0GL+<@)"7A(&%P+;$[0V)$L9\N4D71 M/" >$#=A('DBP1<\HBMP('!A+5 A(%G]!9!H2Z T@B20,@)'(#DQ_SJA'A ' M@xxx. MM0(0/"! T2!'/= H_'EU(2!$<"&Q.K F$B41EQC0380`P'DGLB!K'W#:=R& M9"A@)^-P!) >P;\OO M!JP/\* M0!/01:$GL$^11C-&44/@/PI09$$I\$!08U$Q\GDGOQC08*(BL4^1C!8BH&\@ MH>\QU45B(S Q$6$-T 6P=>#_.=!.(5IA/E20`D!!D%%ALO\Q$2R15J$H8)0T MD1<$D &0_PN 1:$DM06@xxx.25"; M,83NAI_]:J(^6L4(@xxx.: #$:!P MJHE&221)M4C E4!A@E)']0B!S!T!84"A@1'!V04+PNC^$[#^SR@J% M%_$`M4 ````#`! 0``````,`$1 `````0 `', #C?Q^O);L!0 `(, #C?Q^O 9);L!'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( ````"VJ `' ` end ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:26:14 -0600 Subject: RE: TEC I'm going to try and explain this as calmly as possible and not flame the living #%^% daylights out of a rather shall we say insensitive person. What you've seen is most likely what has come out of MY mail package - usually indicated by the From line. I'm using MSExchange - junk, I don't much like it, but it's the only thing that's worked so far with my companies system (note I've only spent a few hours with other packages, it's screwy). MsExchange tries to "guess", based on the message it's responding to, whether or not the other client(s) can understand it's rich text language. For some reason it CONSISTENTLY guesses WRONG for anything from this l*st. This despite the fact that I have an address entry telling it NOT to do this. EVERY SINGLE TIME I post I must go through a series of steps to turn this off for EACH POSTING. understand so far? Occasionally I FORGET! It's only been recently through a series of polite exchanges (pardon the pun) with a member of this list that I've been able to even figure out what the blinking heck is going on. Understand? Note the word polite? I realize that you've never made a mistake before so I'll try not to swear or accuse you of intentionally sending me this stuff - that okay? BTW - I've received several messages from this list in Exchange format NOT authored by me. If there's someone out there who's figured out how to turn this junk off without lobotomizing the software or some way not to send the "rich text" attachment I'd appreciate a polite discussion OFF-LINE about it. I DON'T wish to tie up bandwidth, make peoples lives harder, or take part in a rude discussion - I can find plenty of rude people elsewhere. I'll try to make this my first and last posting to the list abut this particular topic - my mail works just fine off-line and I know we've all got other things we're here to learn about other than MY mail problems. Thanks! P.S. Its real use? I could use color, Bolding, underlining, possibly graphics, and any other cutesy thing I wanted - if you could receive it. Since I know that 99% of the world doesn't use Exchange (I'm happy about this - I like Notes) I don't WANT to send this. Stuff happens though and..... - ---------- >From: Jim Staff[SMTP:staffj@xxx.us] Sent: Saturday, April 06, 1996 4:49 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: TEC > begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT > M>)\^(@X/`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` ===SNIP=== > M*D G<2"A9Q\A:8+_)VZ?!A.S,P$\U!>@<186P0(`LO ```,`$! ``````P`1 > M$ $```! ```#T``0````4```!213H@ > &`````!* > ` > end What is this shit, and what real use does it have? Stop sending this!!!!!!! Turn off that beatnik option it's lame.. Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: Haas@xxx.nl Date: Tue, 9 Apr 96 08:55:09 +0200 Subject: Laughing gas on 5.0l mustang You wrote : >>Darrell, I'm very much a novice at the wiring and stuff, but how could I wire this into my 5.0L Mustang...I think it would help when on the laughing gas. (diagrams if possible) Gannon<< I think you don't want to be in the operating range of a normal oxygen sensor when applying nitrious oxide. I would say you need to stay richer to avoid detonation. Probably your kit will be rich if it is a standard set. Do not modify it to a leaner setting unless you know what you are doing. Now that I am posting; Has anybody ever tried to use exhaust gas temperature as an input for engine control ? Kind regards Joeri de Haas ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #103 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".