DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 10 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 104 In this issue: Re: TEC Re: Newbie enquiry Exhaust Gas Temp Re: Newbie enquiry - apology! Re: Laughing gas on 5.0l mustang Knock sensor using HIP9010 Re: Knock sensor using HIP9010 DIY_EFI Digest V1 #101 Re: Newbie enquiry RE: TEC Catalytic converter temps Re: Exhaust Gas Temp See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Staff" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:51:00 GMT Subject: Re: TEC Sorry about sounding like a losser, now that I understand a little better I'm a little more compassionate. And once you said it was a Microsoft product I knew you're in trouble. Have you tried Eurdora, or Netscape.. Hell I use a little knock off called Pop-Mail it's made by some freaks right here at the U of M. Eurdora is your best bet, since they made that so much nicer for the PC than for the Mac that it makes me sick.. It's sorta friendly and easy to use. Latter Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: John Ansell Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 11:52:19 +0100 Subject: Re: Newbie enquiry Hi, Jim, Many thanks for your offers of help. It's very generous of you. I'd be delighted to take you up! > > OK .. do you have an EPROM burner .. read me the EPROM, and we'll see > whats in it .. if you can take a photo of the board, and digitize it, > all the better!! I can certainly get a dump of the EPROM - would you prefer any particular format? I'll go for normal Intel if not. I'll see what I can do about a picture of the board - again, any particular format that you prefer? > Now very likely the processor is either 8051 based or 8096 based .. if you > already have an EPROM dump (try and read it as a 27C512) you can look at the > image .. or send it to me and I will ... If it's not too much bother, I'd like you to have a look as well - you know what to look for! > The chronology SORTA goes like this .. > > Version # Processors uP Identity > > 0 1 1802 > 1 1 805x > 2 2 805x, MC68HC11ish > 3 2 805x, 8x196 > 4 ? ?? Maybe between us we can fill in some holes for version 4! Thanks again - I'll e-mail the EPROM dump when I have it. - -- John Ansell | Voice: 01442 343183 | "Mother in law" is an Crosfield Electronics | Fax: 01442 343153 | anagram of "Woman Hitler" j2a@xxx.uk | | - Adrian Plass ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:47:51 GMT Subject: Exhaust Gas Temp > Now that I am posting; Has anybody ever tried to use exhaust gas temperature > as an input for engine control ? > > Kind regards > > Joeri de Haas As a matter of fact, in one of my travels in the epic of trying to improve lawn mower engine efficiency I came accross one such device. It was a themal couple, and it used exhaust gas temp to make sure it was being efficient. In depth : I asked! An engine exibits a certain exhaust temp when running at optimum performance. This performance is a function of RPM, fuel mixture, surroundings, and it very hard to deal with. As your exhaust system may be at say 10¡F (I live in Minnesota) when the system starts taking effect it would give you an incorrect value. Even if you were to add sentinal values to the inputs such as say it has to be at least 120¡F before the system cares, that would be fine if the ambient temp of the atmosphere was always the same. In fact the system I saw, I asked to see it run. The instructer replied "I'm sorry it can't run when the temperature is below 30¡F" So other than a novelty it's useless.. ------------------------------ From: John Ansell Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 13:54:32 +0100 Subject: Re: Newbie enquiry - apology! Sorry for the public post - I thought I'd sent the reply to Jim privately! (Flamin' newbies ...) Cheers! - -- John Ansell | Voice: 01442 343183 | "Mother in law" is an Crosfield Electronics | Fax: 01442 343153 | anagram of "Woman Hitler" j2a@xxx.uk | | - Adrian Plass ------------------------------ From: jgn@xxx. Napoli) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 10:31:02 -0400 Subject: Re: Laughing gas on 5.0l mustang At 08:55 AM 4/9/96 +0200, diy_efi@xxx.edu wrote: >Now that I am posting; Has anybody ever tried to use exhaust gas temperature >as an input for engine control ? > >Kind regards > >Joeri de Haas > > > I ran across the following posting yesterday, and luckily had not yet deleted it. It sounds like what you are asking about. I am including it in its entirety in case you want to contact him for more detatils: Regards, John Copied text follows: X-Sender: gmcowan@xxx.net (Unverified) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 12:31:05 -0600 To: ferrari@xxx.edu From: gmcowan@xxx. Cowan) Subject: Norwood twin-turbo Testarossa for sale I've bought an F355 Spyder, and I can't justify having two "fun cars" in the garage, Therefore, with heavy heart, I've decided to sell The Beast. I'm the third owner of this 1985 red/tan US-version TR, whose original Dallas owner wasn't satisfied with the car's performance. He took it to Bob "there's no such thing as too much horsepower" Norwood, who had already achieved notoriety for his turbo conversions of 308s and Boxers. In "version I", the heads were ported, polished, and computer-table flowed by the Lozano Brothers of NASCAR fame. Oversized DelWest titanium valves, copper head gaskets, and modified cams went in. Two Garrett AiResearch water-cooled turbos, an Injection Research system, and Modine air-to-water/glycol intercoolers completed the modifications. You can read about the development and performance in more detail in an article on the car in the June, 1988 issue of Sports Car Illustrated, pages 28-35. The number to remember is 943 horsepower at 10,000 rpm. After the real-estate debacle of the late 80's in Dallas, the car passed to it's second owner in Houston. Version II: Venolia forged low-compression aluminum pistons, Haltech computer-programmable fuel injection with high-flow injectors, and a CenterForce clutch (the stock clutch will just spin above 7,500 rpm on boost, it was found). Boyd Coddington aluminum billet 16" wheels (look like 288 GTO wheels). Low mirrors, both sides, and high-mount brake light as on later cars. Read all about it in Road & Track's Special Series: Ferrari, 1989, pages 58-64. Next, the car appears on the cover of Road & Track's Supercars special series in 1989, when it ran in the "world's fastest street car" event that the maniacs at Road & Track run whenever the urge hits them (usually every 18-24 months). Read about it on pages 16-19. The numbers to remember: Quarter mile. 12.1 seconds at 136 MPH. Top speed reached, 210 MPH (fear limited). 0-60: 4.7 sec., 0-100: 7.7 sec. 60-120: 5.1 sec. It wasn't built to be the world's fastest 0-60 machine, because it would spit out drivetrain components and Bob went for survivability, but I expect there's not much around that is faster from 40-140: 9.7 sec. For more on Norwood and his work, see Topwheels, March 1990 pages 113-117. He was also featured in a segment on the television show, The Exciting World of Speed and Beauty (you can see the TR in one shot). I bought the car in 1991. Bob Norwood had continued to develop the car as a testbed for ideas he would incorporate into other turbo installations. The engine was torn down for inspection and to replace a piston an employee of the second owner is alleged to have burned, so we have a zero-time engine as of 1991. The car now has the latest version of the Haltech system (one unit for each bank). Each cylinder has an exhaust gas temperature probe with an in-cockpit readout via a Cygnus performance computer, so that continuous information about fuel-burn state is available. Clogged injectors and any plug fouling can be instantly detected. I've never had any hair-pulling expensive engine meltdown problems as a result of the ability to know what's happening in each cylinder all the time (higher-performance aircraft engines use this same technology, because a new turbo'ed Lycoming may run you $100,000. Also, if you melt a piston, you can't exactly coast over to the side of the road at 24,000 feet). Norwood has never done another car like this one, as he's found owners love acceleration but are not in as much need of top speed. Lower-flow injectors and lower boost systems are now his recommended installations, with some nitrous work optional. The car is red/tan, 10,XXX miles. The body and interior are in truly good shape. Certainly not "concours", as the car is driven, not worshiped. But you won't be ashamed about anything. Ferrari-made floormats and car cover. Roll cage included (not in car at this time). All work from new documented. Copies of articles on car included, with original copy of Road & Track Supercar issue. I'm selling it for the cost you'd pay to buy a decent early TR and bring it up to the specs of this car: $125,000. References: Bob Norwood 214-831-8111. FAX 214-831-0949. He'll get you in touch with other owners of turbo-TRs. Take it to a Ferrari track day. Buzz around the track passing F40s, without a ride that'll make your kidneys bleed. Make F50 owners anxious about spending $500,000 for their ride. Gary Cowan (gmcowan@xxx.net) FAX 817-338-9641 "some say Enzo would rotate in his sepulchre, I say he would grin" ------------------------------ From: jsturs@xxx.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 19:26:22 -0100 Subject: Knock sensor using HIP9010 I am designing a knock monitor around the HIP9010 chip. The data sheet only gives a "minimum" circuit. Has anyone actually used this component in a real application? I need to know two things: 1. Is there any additional protection or biasing components needed for the inputs? 2. What sort of settings are best for the programmable filters in this device? Thanks for any assistance, Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@xxx.nl ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:48:12 EDT Subject: Re: Knock sensor using HIP9010 ~ ~ I am designing a knock monitor around the HIP9010 chip. The data sheet ~ only gives a "minimum" circuit. Has anyone actually used this component ~ in a real application? I need to know two things: ~ ~ 1. Is there any additional protection or biasing components needed for ~ the inputs? ~ ~ 2. What sort of settings are best for the programmable filters in this ~ device? ~ ~ Thanks for any assistance, ~ ~ Jim Sturcbecher ~ jsturs@xxx.nl ~ ~ I am quite interested in your results (as is everyone else) - keep us posted. If I recall, there was someone on this list who used the HIP9010 chip on an airplane engine. They were going to post more info, but I never saw it. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: "Ronald R Hoyt" Date: 09 Apr 1996 14:48:05 -0500 Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #101 Sorry about the Digest reflection on 08 Apr 1996 13:33:33. I hit the wrong storage key. ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 17:15:19 -0600 Subject: Re: Newbie enquiry At 11:52 AM 4/9/96 +0100, you wrote: >I can certainly get a dump of the EPROM - would you prefer any particular format? >I'll go for normal Intel if not. Intel HEX is fine ... >I'll see what I can do about a picture of the board - again, any particular format >that you prefer? GIF, JPG, TIFF, any wil do ... >If it's not too much bother, I'd like you to have a look as well - you know what >to look for! No problem .. >Maybe between us we can fill in some holes for version 4! Hopefully ;) Jim ------------------------------ From: Jim Pearl Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:32:22 -0400 Subject: RE: TEC Trust me I'm looking for alternatives. I do not want to send garbage out but... I'd use Notes and our gateway but I'm deathly afraid the silly thing would do even worse things! I'll try to keep the garbage off and fix this - it's a real pain believe me! thanks! P.S. I sure wish I knew why M$exchange thinks these messages are supposed to be in it's format! Weird! If anyone has any ideas send them to me off-line. in the meantime I'm going to explore adding Eudora to my brand new 2gig and dump this garbage quick! - ---------- >From: Jim Staff[SMTP:staffj@xxx.us] Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 1996 6:51 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: TEC Sorry about sounding like a losser, now that I understand a little better I'm a little more compassionate. And once you said it was a Microsoft product I knew you're in trouble. Have you tried Eurdora, or Netscape.. Hell I use a little knock off called Pop-Mail it's made by some freaks right here at the U of M. Eurdora is your best bet, since they made that so much nicer for the PC than for the Mac that it makes me sick.. It's sorta friendly and easy to use. Latter Jim Staff ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:55:15 +0500 Subject: Catalytic converter temps "Logic dictates that if you are running lean, there would be less combustible by-products, and the catcon would not have "fuel" to react with, thus the internal temperature of the catcon would be lower. (Jeez, I sound like Spock there :) If, however, you run rich, the catcon has an abundance of fuel, which would cause it to overheat and fuse it's internals." Be careful with your logic, Spock:). Running lean enough can produce lots of combustible by-products. This is exactly what happens during a lean misfire: Little or nothing burns and you send raw fuel and lots of oxygen into the exhaust system. Guess what happens when it reaches the cat? Experience has shown that to reduce excessive catalytic con- verter temperatures you must run rich. Running at or leaner than stoich at WOT causes substrate temps to skyrocket. Having an air in- jection checkvalve stuck open(so air flows after light-off) causes the same thing and has been known to burn things other than just the substrate. A cat literally shuts down when rich. It needs oxygen to reduce and oxidize the exhaust gas constituents; running rich does not supply enough oxygen and running rich also lowers inlet temps into the cat, both of which contribute to it "shutting down". Running lean, which increases the amount of axygen available and increases inlet temps into the cat, can and will raise cat temps to the point where the precious metals themselves will sinter, producing larger and less effective crystals. The cat becomes less and less effective until it permanently shuts down. Looking at a cat efficiency conversion chart tells a lot: as you go lean, HC conversion efficiency approaches 100%, a pretty good indica- tion of how much heat gets generated when you go lean. Such a chart can be found in Heywood's book, if you have one. Damn good book! Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Haas@xxx.nl Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 08:32:59 +0200 Subject: Re: Exhaust Gas Temp >> Now that I am posting; Has anybody ever tried to use exhaust gas= temperature >> as an input for engine control ? >>=20 >> Kind regards=20 >>=20 >> Joeri de Haas > >see it run. The instructer replied "I'm sorry it can't run when the temperature=20 >is below 30=A1F" > So other than a novelty it's useless.. > Thanks Jim, I do not need the system for actual engine control but for protection. I run a dragrace bike with nitrious oxide injection. Things can go very wrong in the engine. I was hoping to monitor exhaust gas temperature and shut of the nitrious once the temperature gets to high (or the temperature rise if the system turns out to be to slow). I believe there are some electronics available that hook up to a thermocouple and give a nice output. Kind regards=20 Joeri ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #104 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".