DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 12 April 1996 Volume 01 : Number 107 In this issue: RE: Multispark stuff and other thoughts Re: Multi Spark Ignition... Heywood book re: Heywood reference Re: HEI dizzy Re: Multi Spark Ignition... Re: Catalytic converters Outboard Motor Coils Re: Multi Spark Ignition... Re[2]: Multi Spark Ignition... Address? Re: Outboard Motor Coils Re: Catalytic converter temps (now book reviews) re: Re: Updated efi reference Re: EEC-IV Questions Matlab Automotive Examples Re: Outboard Motor Coils No Knock-sensor Knowledge? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #106 -help! Re[2]: Outboard Motor Coils Re[3]: Multi Spark Ignition... Address? Re: Outboard Motor Coils Re: Outboard Motor Coils Re: Outboard Motor Coils RE: Knock sensor using HIP9010 FW: Re: Knock sensor using HIP9010 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #106 -help! thermocouples and mixture. RE: thermocouples and mixture. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Parker Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:35:36 -0600 (EDT) Subject: RE: Multispark stuff and other thoughts On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS) wrote: > > >How many sparks per event would depend upon the coil > >charge and discharge time, but we all want to charge with real high > >currents anyway.... Just some thoughts on the subject. > > The MSD system is capacitive discharge. For this type, the limiting factors > are how fast you can charge up the main capacitor (example: 1 uF, 400 V) and > how long it takes to discharge in the coil. > > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@xxx.com > I just did a study on Sun distb machine with high speed scope and found recycle time between sparks of MSD is 750 usec and conversion on 8 cyl setup from multiple spark to single spark occured at 2400 rpm. Frank PArker ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:31:59 -0600 (EDT) Subject: Re: Multi Spark Ignition... On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS) wrote: > > >Since the MultiSpark issue has been brought up, *someone* in the past had > >reversed-engineered the box and was going to post the schematic??? > > I am the guilty party. I promised this info more than a year ago (!), but > never finished it up to my satisfaction. > > Bryan Zublin > bzublin@xxx.com > I have a offical copy of the schematic received from MSD a number of years ago. Made offer to send to members of this group and sent quite a few out to allover world. If you wish one , send name and real mail address back to me. Racing season has started and I will be off to Long Beach and Phoenix races and will not return for 10 days but will be able to mail out after then. If I missed anyone from previous post, please email me again. Frank Parker ------------------------------ From: Zoltan LAJBER Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:02:07 +0200 Subject: Heywood book Hi, Here is a older edition of famous Heywood's book. This is a hard cover and gray. ISBN number is: 0-07-028637-X. , 1988, McGraw-Hill. I know about a yellow, paperback edition too, I think this is a newest edition, but I see no difference in the contents. Bye, Lajbi - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Zoltan LAJBER Ph.D.student e-mail: lajbi@xxx.hu/~lajbi - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 08:31:38 -0400 Subject: re: Heywood reference More Heywood book information: Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals McGraw-Hill Book Co. ISBN 0-07-028637-X 930 pages A wonderful text it is. It's a bit more up-to-date than Taylor's. Here's the table of contents. Chapter 1 - Engine Types and Their Operation Chapter 2 - Engine Design and Operating Parameters Chapter 3 - Thermochemistry of Fuel-Air Mixtures Chapter 4 - Properties of Working Fluids Chapter 5 - Ideal Models of Engine Cycles Chapter 6 - Gas Exchange Processes Chapter 7 - SI Engine Fuel Metering and Manifold Phenomena Chapter 8 - Charge Motion within the Cylinder Chapter 9 - Combustion in Spark-Ignition Engines Chapter 10 - Combustion in Compression-Ignition Engines Chapter 11 - Pollutant Formation and Control Chapter 12 - Engine Heat Transfer Chapter 13 - Engine Friction and Lubrication Chapter 14 - Modeling Real Engine Flow and Combustion Chapter 15 - Engine Operating Characteristics Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: Bohdan.L.Bodnar@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:45:40 -0500 Subject: Re: HEI dizzy The back-emf kick out of ANY high energy ignition system should be around 300 to 400 volts. Shucks, I get around 200 volts out of my *low energy* system in my 1986 Le Baron. When you 'scope the primary side, you should also see the current limiting "hump" at about 3.5 ms after coil charging begins. In my judgement, either you have a bad ground connection or your module's nuked. Cordially, Bohdan Bodnar ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 9:17:56 EDT Subject: Re: Multi Spark Ignition... ~ ~ ~ >Since the MultiSpark issue has been brought up, *someone* in the past had ~ >reversed-engineered the box and was going to post the schematic??? ~ ~ I am the guilty party. I promised this info more than a year ago (!), but ~ never finished it up to my satisfaction. ~ We have much lower standards, and will take any info that is thrown at us. Even a blurb on how the circuit works overall would entitle you to at least a six-pack. - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:46:23 +0500 Subject: Re: Catalytic converters "Ed, does FORD produce any metal substrate cats, or rather use any or are they ALL ceramic ..." To my knowledge, all our production cats are ceramic. We have experi- memted with metal substrate cats, though. Some European manufactures use them(BMW and Mercedes, for example). Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: jgn@xxx. Napoli) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:26:19 -0400 Subject: Outboard Motor Coils While reading several recent threads regarding distributorless ignition systems, I began wondering if anyone has looked into the applicability of marine -- specifically, outboard motor -- ignitions for automotive use. I have a high-performance V6 two-stroke outboard on my boat that easily spins 6,500 rpm -- I've gone as high as 7,500. That's equivalent to 15,000 in a four stroke (without waste spark, of course). Each cylinder gets its own small coil. This engine displaces 2.4 liters and is rated at about 300 HP. Question 1: Would these coils (and, possibly, their electronic controller) have applicability in an automotive application? This engine also uses unusual spark plugs. There are no conventional electrodes. Looking end-on to the plug, it looks like an archery target -- three annular rings. The center ring is the center electrode, the second ring is the insulator, and the third ring is the outer electrode (case). Viewed from the side, the plug is flat across, with the insulating ring slightly recessed. The spark occurs at any point across the faces of the center and outer rings. These plugs last a long time, and, of course, there is no gap to adjust. Question 2: Has anyone used plugs like this, and to they have applicability in an automotive application? I can provide make and model info if there is any interest. Regards, John ------------------------------ From: David Schmidt Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 07:35:53 -0700 Subject: Re: Multi Spark Ignition... Hi again, I think I'm one of those you missed as I have not yet received a schematic. Would it be too much trouble to send me off a xerox copy? Thanks Dave Schmidt 949 Decatur Ave Ventura, CA 93004-2232 BTW, I am working (slowly, my real job gets in the way tooo much!) on a distributorless ignition unit for my 1982 Datsun 200SX. Right now I am planning on keeping the original distributor with the mechanical/vacuum advance and using the magnetic pickup to trigger the coil firing circuit. Cyl #1 detection would be a optical interrupter flag modified from the rotor. Microcontroller would be a MicroChip PIC series chip. At 07:31 AM 4/11/96 -0600, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Zublin, Bryan (SD-MS) wrote: > >> >> >Since the MultiSpark issue has been brought up, *someone* in the past had >> >reversed-engineered the box and was going to post the schematic??? >> >> I am the guilty party. I promised this info more than a year ago (!), but >> never finished it up to my satisfaction. >> >> Bryan Zublin >> bzublin@xxx.com >> >I have a offical copy of the schematic received from MSD a number of >years ago. Made offer to send to members of this group and sent quite >a few out to allover world. If you wish one , send name and real mail >address back to me. Racing season has started and I will be off to Long >Beach and Phoenix races and will not return for 10 days but will be able >to mail out after then. If I missed anyone from previous post, please email >me again. > >Frank Parker > > ------------------------------ From: wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 10:31:47 EST Subject: Re[2]: Multi Spark Ignition... Address? >I have a offical copy of the schematic received from MSD a number of >please email me again. >Frank Parker What is your email address Frank Parker? I would be interested in a copy of this schematic. Thank you Will McGonegal Environment Canada wmcgonegal@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:17:05 -0400 Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils Those plugs sound like TorqueMaster plugs. They advertise in many boat magazines (like Hot Boat). Someone on rec.autos.tech recently reported on testing them, and he really liked them (especially the bottom end). +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:51:38 +0500 Subject: Re: Catalytic converter temps (now book reviews) Jerry Wills asked: "Any opinions on how it compares to Charles F Taylor, two volume set?" I have that set, too, and I never use it. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 11:06:05 CDT Subject: re: Re: Updated efi reference David Channon Wrote: | | > | > A list of references on Engine Management, fuel injection, | > EFI related parts and components. | > | > Currently maintained by Steve Ravet | > sravet@xxx.com | > Available via WWW at: | > http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/efi_ref.txt | > | This http reference reports forbidden to my netscape2.0 | web browser. | | Cheers David. | David (and everyone else) this is a problem with the file permissions on the server machine. I can't fix it, but I've contacted the admins about it. Keep trying back, as that is where it will be when the problems are fixed. Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 12:48:23 +0500 Subject: Re: EEC-IV Questions "To the best of my knowledge, there were no sensor and/or actuator failures that would cause this condition." A couple years ago, I calibrated some operating modes for the Mark VIII so it would run without the MAS hookedup. I'm trying to remember if we actually called it a limp-home mode or just a failure manage- ment mode. Now that I think about it, I wound't really call that a full limp home mode. It was more like a limp-without-the-MAS-mode, something we needed in case the MAS broke or someone forgot to hook it up after changing the air filter. What's the s/w? ------------------------------ From: tdrury@xxx.edu Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 13:35:17 EST Subject: Matlab Automotive Examples Just got the material from MathWorks. Very nicely done. It has an article on each example, with block diagrams and graphs. Its a great supplement to the code. The only thing I don't like is the suspension example. Its a simple two wheel problem - front and back - to watch longitudinal dynamics. I, personally, am more interested in lateral dynamics. Oh well. I'm not an ME - anybody know how to model sway bars? What the hell am I complaining about? It was free. - -tim ------------------------------ From: "Jim Staff" Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:59:55 GMT Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils > Question 1: Would these coils (and, possibly, their electronic controller) > have applicability in an automotive application? > > This engine also uses unusual spark plugs. There are no conventional > electrodes. Looking end-on to the plug, it looks like an archery target -- > three annular rings. The center ring is the center electrode, the second > ring is the insulator, and the third ring is the outer electrode (case). > Viewed from the side, the plug is flat across, with the insulating ring > slightly recessed. The spark occurs at any point across the faces of the > center and outer rings. These plugs last a long time, and, of course, there > is no gap to adjust. You know I always wondered why they didn't make plugs like that? I see a circular electrode as being nearly foul free, hanving a good spark as the fround expands towards the piston and not at the cylinder walls as with a normal plug. The questions... 1. How far do these suckers stick below the head? 2. How much volatge is used to drive the puppies? 3. How large are they? Jim Staff Always looking for a cool way to improve a 3HP Briggs performance. ------------------------------ From: jsturs@xxx.nl (Jim Sturcbecher) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:19:01 -0100 Subject: No Knock-sensor Knowledge? I don't believe it. Nobody seems to be know much about a practical approach to a knock sensor interface. Is this true? or are you all too shy? I am not very happy about deliberately inducing knock in my engine just to try and design a knock sensor interface. Please, please, please, can anyone help me? Down on my knees, Jim Sturcbecher jsturs@xxx.nl ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #106 -help! I GOOFED and accidently deleted digest #106 and being as I consider these damned important I'd sure appreciate it if somebody could forward one to me! By the way Ed Hernandez, I did believe you had all this memorized and was extreemly impressed. Nice to know your human and are just plain impressive! > ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 08:17:01 Subject: Re[2]: Outboard Motor Coils I think Alfa Romeo use a similar type plug in their cars Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 4/12/96 1:04 AM Those plugs sound like TorqueMaster plugs. They advertise in many boat magazines (like Hot Boat). Someone on rec.autos.tech recently reported on testing them, and he really liked them (especially the bottom end). +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 08:23:47 Subject: Re[3]: Multi Spark Ignition... Address? I would love a copy as well Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Multi Spark Ignition... Address? Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 4/11/96 10:31 AM >I have a offical copy of the schematic received from MSD a number of >please email me again. >Frank Parker What is your email address Frank Parker? I would be interested in a copy of this schematic. Thank you Will McGonegal Environment Canada wmcgonegal@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 19:35:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils At 10:26 AM 4/11/96 -0400, you wrote: >While reading several recent threads regarding distributorless ignition >systems, I began wondering if anyone has looked into the applicability of >marine -- specifically, outboard motor -- ignitions for automotive use. > >I have a high-performance V6 two-stroke outboard on my boat that easily >spins 6,500 rpm -- I've gone as high as 7,500. That's equivalent to 15,000 >in a four stroke (without waste spark, of course). Each cylinder gets its >own small coil. This engine displaces 2.4 liters and is rated at about 300 >HP. > Question 1: Would these coils (and, possibly, their electronic controller) >have applicability in an automotive application? >This engine also uses unusual spark plugs. There are no conventional >electrodes. Looking end-on to the plug, it looks like an archery target -- >three annular rings. The center ring is the center electrode, the second >ring is the insulator, and the third ring is the outer electrode (case). >Viewed from the side, the plug is flat across, with the insulating ring >slightly recessed. The spark occurs at any point across the faces of the >center and outer rings. These plugs last a long time, and, of course, there >is no gap to adjust. > >Question 2: Has anyone used plugs like this, and to they have applicability >in an automotive application? > >I can provide make and model info if there is any interest. > > >Regards, > >John > ============================================================================ John, let me give my two cents worth on this. Question 1: Would these coils (and, possibly, their electronic controller) >have applicability in an automotive application? Technically speaking, I can see no reason why the coils will not work. Consider this: If they can fire through 50:1 gas/oil ratio, a 4 stroker shouldn't be a problem. Since they are marine components by design, the automotive enviornment should be easy. I can see many problems trying to use the controllers (possible built in timeing and dwell changes for one). Keep in mind that using stock automotive coils (one /cylinder) should also work. If they can fire 8 times / 2 revs, then once per 2 revs should be childs play. >Question 2: Has anyone used plugs like this, and to they have applicability >in an automotive application? Been there, tried to do that. What I found out is that the 'marine' plugs are not offered in heat ranges that most autos use. This was 3 years ago, they may be at Wallmart now. I agree with your thinking! Give it a try! GMD ------------------------------ From: Rob Skala Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 09:40:36 +0000 (WST) Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils > At 10:26 AM 4/11/96 -0400, you wrote: > >While reading several recent threads regarding distributorless ignition > >systems, I began wondering if anyone has looked into the applicability of > >marine -- specifically, outboard motor -- ignitions for automotive use. > > > > >This engine also uses unusual spark plugs. There are no conventional > >electrodes. Looking end-on to the plug, it looks like an archery target -- > >three annular rings. The center ring is the center electrode, the second > >ring is the insulator, and the third ring is the outer electrode (case). > >Viewed from the side, the plug is flat across, with the insulating ring > >slightly recessed. The spark occurs at any point across the faces of the > >center and outer rings. These plugs last a long time, and, of course, there > >is no gap to adjust. > > > >Question 2: Has anyone used plugs like this, and to they have applicability > >in an automotive application? > > > >I can provide make and model info if there is any interest. > > > > > >Regards, > > > >John > > > ============================================================================ > Hi There, I just thought I would put my little bit of knowledge in here about the spark plugs you mentioned. They sound very similar to the NGK plugs that are used by MAZDA in some of their rotary engines. They are a surface discharge plug that performs very well, especially in turbo-charged rotarys. The plugs used in the rotaries are SD-10 and SD-9 both made by NGK. A while ago I was looking through the NGK catalouge and found that there is quite a variety of heat ranges available in these types of plugs. The usual designation is SD-xx where xx refers to the heat range. Hopefully this is of some use to the fellow list members !!! Regards, Rob Skala Robert D Skala Materials Research Group School of Physical Science Curtin University of Technology GPO Box U1987 Perth 6001 WESTERN AUSTRALIA Telephone: +61 9 351 2331 Fax: +61 9 351 2377 email: skala_rd@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: David Schmidt Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:40:32 -0700 Subject: Re: Outboard Motor Coils Mazda RX-7's have been using this plug type for years. Too bad they still flood them. >You know I always wondered why they didn't make plugs like that? I see a ------------------------------ From: john carroll Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:42:18 PDT Subject: RE: Knock sensor using HIP9010 Jim, I have been procrastinating about writing of my experiences with the hip9010 for a couple of months. Project after urgent project gets in my way. I promise that I will in the next week or so. Federal Income Tax must be filed by Monday evening, so I will not have that excuse much longer. What kind of ignition system are you using? What sort of input do you want? I will try to put some background info on the net tonight - ----------------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us john carroll ------------------------------ From: john carroll Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 19:48:53 PDT Subject: FW: Re: Knock sensor using HIP9010 Everyone, I promise that I will get som postings giong in the very near future. A couple of projects are finished and very soon, "working on taxes" will cease to be a valid excuse john carroll jac@xxx.us On Tue, 09 Apr 1996 15:48:12 EDT Bruce Bowling wrote: >X-Hpvue$Revision: 1.8 $ >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: Message/rfc822 >X-Vue-Mime-Level: 4 >X-Mailer: Elm [revision: 109.14] >Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >~ >~ I am designing a knock monitor around the HIP9010 chip. The data sheet >~ only gives a "minimum" circuit. Has anyone actually used this component >~ in a real application? I need to know two things: >~ >~ 1. Is there any additional protection or biasing components needed for >~ the inputs? >~ >~ 2. What sort of settings are best for the programmable filters in this >~ device? >~ >~ Thanks for any assistance, >~ >~ Jim Sturcbecher >~ jsturs@xxx.nl >~ >~ > >I am quite interested in your results (as is everyone else) - keep us posted. > >If I recall, there was someone on this list who used the HIP9010 chip on an >airplane engine. They were going to post more info, but I never saw it. > >- Bruce > >-- >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > Bruce A. Bowling > Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls > The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility > 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 > (804) 249-7240 > bowling@xxx.gov > http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling >----------------------------------------------------- ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >----------------------------------------------------- > - ----------------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us john carroll ------------------------------ From: John S Gwynne Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 22:49:12 -0400 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #106 -help! - -------- In message <199604112251.PAA22502@xxx.com> , you write: | I GOOFED and accidently deleted digest #106 and being as I consider these dam | ned | important I'd sure appreciate it if somebody could forward one to me! FYI, the archive can now be ftp'd (in addition to email retrieval) from ftp://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/pub/diy_efi/archive The digests should also be there for several days/weeks. I've been randomly removing them by hand as they pill up. Sooner or latter I'll put something in cron.... BTW, the file archive_current can only be retrieved by email at the moment. This is work in progress.... :) John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: john carroll Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 20:05:09 PDT Subject: thermocouples and mixture. This shot is from the hip, but does come with a money back guarantee. It seems that watching the temperature across the converter with a pair of thermocouples would be the best way to make use of exhaust gas temperature to monitor mixture. If it works, it has the elegance of causing something that does not contribute to performance become useful. If combustion is taking place in the converter, (the mixture is rich) the outlet sensor will probably be the hotter of the two and visa versa. Two thermocouples wired in opposition, with all of the joints and attachments at the same physical location will emit a signal proportional to the temperature change through the converter and eliminate concern about compensation. It will have THE CORRECT ALGEBRAIC SIGN!!! The analog value is likely proportional to over/under fueling and the two leads could directly drive a comparator for a digital output. If all these assumptions are not quite accurate, some modest amount of compensation should still make it work very simply. How about some one with more experience with converters jumping on this and trying it out or modeling it and I will work on a report of my experience with HIP9010. MY text book copy of McGraw Hill's _COMBUSTION ENGINE PROCESSES_ was printed in 1967 and is pre ISBN. It was written by Lester C. Lichty. I wish the chapter on combustion knock was available on line for everyone but I really don't want to type in the text myself. Does something as old as my copy go out of copyright? Can scanned pages from an old text be distributed legally? - ----------------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us john carroll ------------------------------ From: "Clinton L. Corbin : Backgrind/Gold : Pager 0544" Date: Thu, 11 Apr 96 20:50:51 PDT Subject: RE: thermocouples and mixture. >MY text book copy of McGraw Hill's _COMBUSTION ENGINE PROCESSES_ >was printed in 1967 and is pre ISBN. It was written by Lester C. >Lichty. > >I wish the chapter on combustion knock was available on line for >everyone but I really don't want to type in the text myself. > >Does something as old as my copy go out of copyright? Not until 2017. That assumes they don't renew the copyright for another 25 years (this is also shot from the hip, but I THINK these numbers are correct). >Can scanned pages from an old text be distributed legally? Nope. It is still copyrighted. Remember that little line "can not be reproduced by any means, mechanical or..., without the expressed permission of..."? That includes your scanner. You have to get there permission first if you want to be legal about it. And congress just passed a new law making it illegal to use electrinic equipment to illigally copy copyrighted matterial. Sort of like passing a law making it illegal to use a color printer to counterfit dollars. That diffinately falls into the "no shit" catagory. But then, this IS congress I am talking about! Clint ccorbin@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #107 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".