DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 13 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 165 In this issue: Fuel prizes Re: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted Re: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted [none] [none] [none] [none] Re: fuel pressure gage Re: Yamaha GTS1000 EFI/ nippon denso Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted EFI algorithms Why water injection? Instrumentation Information Instrumentation Information Re[4]: Solenoid Wanted re: Instrumentation Information Re: EFI Algorithms Re: Why water injection? Re: Fuel prizes Re: GM ECM: Vats Re: EFI Algorithms Re: Why water injection? Re: Instrumentation Information Re: Why water injection? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jens Knickmeyer Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:51:46 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Fuel prizes Hi all, this is not pure EFI stuff, but.... A friend of mine plans to build a marine EFI application. To check out chances on the international market, he needs to know the prizes for gasoline and diesel in Canada, USA, Australia and NZ. Would someone in the mentioned countries be so kind and tell me what you pay for gas/diesel? Please use direct mail to keep this from the list. Thanks in advance, Jens ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 10:47:25 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted > Could someone please enlighten me as to why you would run water into > your engine. How does this stop knocking ? Is it some type of carbon > clean while you drive ? Does it increase power ? etc, etc. I have > only heard about it, but know nothing about it. Possibility: Water, in changing from liquid to vapor, absorbs some of the heat generated by combustion, thereby reducing the peak temperature in the cylinder. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: jfaubion@xxx.mil (jfaubion) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 11:08:07 cdt Subject: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted >Didn't they used to put a small percent of ethanol in the >water tanks of water injected vehicles?? Yes. In the system I ran before I used about 70% ethanol and 30% water. I had a great supply of ethanol with which to experiment. I found this to give the best power. Also as I understand it, with ethanol's affinity for water, this is a typical mixture after it sits for a while. Edlebrock used to sell a water injection system and they also sold a premixed solution to run with it. This was a 50/50 mix of water and ethanol. John Faubion ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:23:14 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted > Could someone please enlighten me as to why you would run water into > your engine. How does this stop knocking ? Is it some type of carbon > clean while you drive ? Does it increase power ? etc, etc. I have > only heard about it, but know nothing about it. All of the above. By adding water to the A/F mixture, you stop knock because the water is evaporated during combustion which takes a significant amount of heat. This lowers cylinder temperatures, and helps prevent knock. As a side benefit, the steam tends to "steam clean" the combustion chamber and keeps everything nice and clean (which also tends to help prevent knock). As for power, with knock gone you can lean on it as hard as you want, and you don't need to trade of spark advance (power) for longevity. As for adding ethanol, that may have been used as an anti-freeze, which also happens to burn (adds energy where water injection slightly decreases the A/F charge volume [by the amount of water added] so it slightly decreases the output power). The ideal solution is to not run gasoline at all, but run on pure methanol. It has a higher anti-knock rating, burns cleaner, and burns much cooler. The downsides are lower specific heat (you need to burn almost twice as much alky to get the same power as gasoline), so you need larger injectors and a fuel tank that's twice as large. There is also a problem of availability. In this imperfect world, gasoline is the best trade-off for most of us. However, when we exceed gasolines range, injecting alky helps, as does water, which is significantly cheaper and much more available. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:59:17 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:59:01 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:58:30 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:59:25 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:27:38 -0700 Subject: Re: fuel pressure gage William Sarkozy wrote: > > I'm currently assembling a turbo TPI motor for marine application using the > stock GM fuel pressure regulator. Boost will be limited to 15 psig. What > range of fuel pressure gage will work best? Because of brand selection, > choices are limited to 0-60 psig or 0-100 psig. William, If you're using a stock regulator set at around 28 to 32psi, 15psig boost pressure would increase your fuel pressure that same amount on the factory 1/1 setups to approximately 45 psi. A 0-60psi gauge would be well within range. There are a lot of aftermarket regulators out there that allow you to alter the base fuel pressure of your regulator, though if your using large 15 ohm injectors you may shut them down with too high of base pressure, especially at light throttle and idle situations where the pulse time is low. The Peak and hold 2 ohm stuff is much better, faster and stronger rise with the 4 amp peak, then holding at 1 amp to close down faster. Good luck on your project Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering Email: knighton@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:23:17 -0700 Subject: Re: Yamaha GTS1000 EFI/ nippon denso Jerry Wills wrote: > > The GTS EFI, is it a yamaha proprietary system, or a motronic, or other. > > >> manufacturer NIPPON/DENSO > >> type 195500-2680 (according to the owner's manual) > > Are Nippon Denso system used on cars as well, are people able to > tweek them? > > Jerry Wills > I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! > 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's > USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 > 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! > You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) Jerry, Nissan's use the Nippon/Denso Fuel Management stuff, there's a southern california company that's been written up in turbo mag. a couple of times that's doing a lot of stuff with them. I think it's Jim Wolf Racing? There may or may not be any similarities between the bike stuff. Motorcycle people to call would probably be turbo mike, he was just in cycle world or something like that and ran 230mph on a turboed ZX-11 running 375hp with no nitrous. Is that enough power for you? He's got a page on the web along with a lot of other motorcycle crazies. Personally, I'd prefer to have a five point harness and a seatbelt on at 200+mph. Todd Knighton, Protomotive Engineering Email: knighton@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: jfaubion@xxx.mil (jfaubion) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 11:00:23 cdt Subject: Re[2]: Solenoid Wanted > > I am rigging a water injection system and > intercooler mister system in my quattro. > The solenoids I have a junk. I was thinking > of using the frequencey vavle out of an early > CIS system by bosch. Does anyone know what > voltage drives these guys? I know there was > a darlington used in the ECU to control the > valve. > > paul timmerman > pasadena ca >Also need to use a small high pressure storage vessel with check >valve so water is injected immediately. Can use simple container >for big storage. Be interested in hearing other ideas/experiences. The last vehicle I used water injection with was turbocharged. Of course with a forced induction system things are much easier. On my system I mounted the nozzles to the top of the air cleaner. I used an aluminum coolant overflow tank from an early Corvette as a storage tank. This tank has a radiator cap on top and a 5/8" line off to the bottom. I epoxied two 1/4" copper lines into the 5/8" line. One of these lines was bent to reach the top of the tank to pressurize it and the other stopped just inside the tank as a pickup. Tubing was run from the pickup line to a check valve and on to the nozzles. Another tube was run from the intake manifold to the pressure line on the tank. Under a vacuum the check valve prevented air from being sucked through the water and into the manifold. Under boost water was forced through the nozzles. Of course more boost feed more water. I think the nozzles were around .050" but I can't remember the exact sizes. This system cost me about $15 to setup, its simple and the output is variable but it will only work with forced induction. John Faubion ------------------------------ From: pfenske@xxx.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:08:49 -0700 Subject: EFI algorithms Hi Gang: Revising some old code on a controller. Wus wondering if any of you HC11 gurus could give me a hand. First off the handle Map. In the past I have used an OEM Map sensor This gives about 4.75 volts at wot and about 1.5 volts at idle or 18 inches of vacum. In the past this was fed into the AD and I used the resulting conversion in the code directly. What I need to do now with new software is to develop a load factor between 0 and 255. Whats the best stragedy. A calculation using to A D value or a lookup table or a search. Once you have the load factor between 0 and 255 a divide by 16(four shifts right)gives you the index for your lookup table. Second RPM. In the past I used the input capture to give me the time value between two ignition pulses. A division of the highest RPM about 400 rpm increment at 6400 rpm in timer value would give me a table of 15 rpm increments plus if you use idiv a fraction is also created. My four point interpolation would use map fraction and rpm fraction to smooth the values in the lookup table. What I wish to do is use a 25 rpm increment at 6400 rpm to create a rpm table that runs in 25 rpm increments between 25 and 6375 rpm. Since I am currently working on idle control I need the finer resolution. Also I have decided to split the look up tables into a lower load lower rpm table and a higher load higher rpm tables. The lookup indexs for the low load rpm table would be finer increments. This would make low rpm operation much better. Anyways I am still trying to post a version of my old software. Also still trying to find N Alpha article Tnx everybody: peter ------------------------------ From: ptimmerm@xxx.GOV Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:52:20 -0700 Subject: Why water injection? > Could someone please enlighten me as to why you would run water into > your engine. How does this stop knocking ? Is it some type of carbon > clean while you drive ? Does it increase power ? etc, etc. I have > only heard about it, but know nothing about it. > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au The short and sweet answer is more power. This is an noticable improvement. I use 30-70 mph tests in 3rd gear. I was running 9.3's, and have dropped that to 8.7's with water injection. Note that this test uses of off cam off turbo portion as well as the higher rpm regions. In a little more detail, water evaporation densifies the air going into the engine, steam provides a powerful antidetonant, and the engine can run cooler. With forced induction, this means you can then turn up the boost for yet more power. I plan on running at 18 psig with a 7.0:1 compression engine, giving about 275 hp out of 2.15 liters. ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: Instrumentation Information I've been on the list for a few weeks now and have decided that building missiles is not much like building automobile induction systems. Can anyone recommend a text book that deals with the topics most closely related to constructing an EFI system. The things I need to come up to speed on are topics like: Intake manifold fluid dynamics; Different types of sensors and their construction/uses; air/fuel combustion theory; Practical EFI knowledge. I guess the level of the text would be Advanced Undergraduate/Graduate level. If anyone can recommend a text, I'd appreciate the title, author, publisher, and date so I can do a search at the library and/or order more easily. My location, Huntsville, AL, is a missile town and books on automotive engineering are hard to find. John Brewer "Any man who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:19:49 -0500 Subject: Instrumentation Information I've been on the list for a few weeks now and have decided that building missiles is not much like building automobile induction systems. Can anyone recommend a text book that deals with the topics most closely related to constructing an EFI system. The things I need to come up to speed on are topics like: Intake manifold fluid dynamics; Different types of sensors and their construction/uses; air/fuel combustion theory; Practical EFI knowledge. I guess the level of the text would be Advanced Undergraduate/Graduate level. If anyone can recommend a text, I'd appreciate the title, author, publisher, and date so I can do a search at the library and/or order more easily. My location, Huntsville, AL, is a missile town and books on automotive engineering are hard to find. John Brewer "Any man who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin ------------------------------ From: jfaubion@xxx.mil (jfaubion) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 14:30:25 cdt Subject: Re[4]: Solenoid Wanted >As for adding ethanol, that may have been used as an anti-freeze, >which also happens to burn (adds energy where water injection >slightly decreases the A/F charge volume [by the amount of water >added] so it slightly decreases the output power). As I understand it the ethanol was originally used to raise the octane level of the combustible mixture in the chamber. Its latent heat and easy vaporization were also added benefits. >The ideal solution is to not run gasoline at all, but run on >pure methanol. I always thought the "ideal" fuel to be hydrogen for pretty much the same reasons you mentioned. It does have many of the same drawbacks but you won't find a much cleaner burning fuel. John Faubion ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 15:33:27 CDT Subject: re: Instrumentation Information brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Wrote: | | I've been on the list for a few weeks now and have decided that building | missiles is not much like building automobile induction systems. Can | anyone recommend a text book that deals with the topics most closely | related to constructing an EFI system. The things I need to come up to | speed on are topics like: Intake manifold fluid dynamics; Different types | of sensors and their construction/uses; air/fuel combustion theory; | Practical EFI knowledge. I guess the level of the text would be Advanced | Undergraduate/Graduate level. If anyone can recommend a text, I'd | appreciate the title, author, publisher, and date so I can do a search at | the library and/or order more easily. My location, Huntsville, AL, is a | missile town and books on automotive engineering are hard to find. | | John Brewer | | "Any man who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." - Ben | Franklin | | | Have a look at the EFI reference on the vettenet WWW page. The URL directly there is http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/efi_ref.txt Or watch here for it. I'll be posting it again soon. Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: ducharme@xxx.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 17:03:36 EDT Subject: Re: EFI Algorithms Peter Fenske wrote: > Second RPM. > In the past I used the input capture to give me the time value between > two ignition pulses. A division of the highest RPM about 400 rpm > increment at 6400 rpm in timer value would give me a table of > 15 rpm increments plus if you use idiv a fraction is also created. > My four point interpolation would use map fraction and rpm fraction > to smooth the values in the lookup table. > What I wish to do is use a 25 rpm increment at 6400 rpm to create > a rpm table that runs in 25 rpm increments between 25 and 6375 rpm. > Since I am currently working on idle control I need the finer resolution. > Also I have decided to split the look up tables into a lower load > lower rpm table and a higher load higher rpm tables. The lookup indexs > for the low load rpm table would be finer increments. This would > make low rpm operation much better. Unless I'm missing something, if you use input capture on a 68HC11, your resolution should improve as the speed decreases (period increases) RPM = Constant/ pulse_period dRPM ~ Constant/ (pulse_period^2) At low speeds, minor changes in speed equal larger incremental changes in the period. My personal experience with input capture was less than satisfying, but it does work, although you have to keep track of overflows if your period exceeds 2^16 E cycles. Cliff Ducharme P.S. I did finish my EFI B&S, and at the ripe old age of 44 have my BSEE. (If anyone is interested, I'll put my project paper out on the Web.) ------------------------------ From: scicior@xxx.com (Steve Ciciora) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:00:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Why water injection? > From owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu Wed Jun 12 14:58 MDT 1996 > From: ptimmerm@xxx.GOV > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:52:20 -0700 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Why water injection? > > > > > Could someone please enlighten me as to why you would run water into > > your engine. How does this stop knocking ? Is it some type of carbon > > clean while you drive ? Does it increase power ? etc, etc. I have > > only heard about it, but know nothing about it. > > > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > > The short and sweet answer is more power. This is an noticable > improvement. I use 30-70 mph tests in 3rd gear. I was running > 9.3's, and have dropped that to 8.7's with water injection. > Note that this test uses of off cam off turbo portion as well > as the higher rpm regions. > > In a little more detail, water evaporation densifies the air > going into the engine, steam provides a powerful antidetonant, > and the engine can run cooler. With forced induction, this > means you can then turn up the boost for yet more power. > I plan on running at 18 psig with a 7.0:1 compression engine, > giving about 275 hp out of 2.15 liters. > > > But make sure you don't run out of H2O or your water injector gets clogged!!! Didn't John DeAmond have this happen, with a spectacular firey engine melt down? - -Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 08:14:40 Subject: Re: Fuel prizes Fuel in Australia range from A$0.65/litre (east) to A$0.80/litre (west) to $1.20/litre going inbetween for 96 octane super, unleaded is about A$0.04/litre cheaper, and diesel is about A$0.08/litre cheaper. By the way, what is your mailing address ? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Fuel prizes Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/13/96 1:49 AM Hi all, this is not pure EFI stuff, but.... A friend of mine plans to build a marine EFI application. To check out chances on the international market, he needs to know the prizes for gasoline and diesel in Canada, USA, Australia and NZ. Would someone in the mentioned countries be so kind and tell me what you pay for gas/diesel? Please use direct mail to keep this from the list. Thanks in advance, Jens ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:56:04 -0500 Subject: Re: GM ECM: Vats At 09:11 AM 6/11/96 -0700, you wrote: (snip) A description of the (VATS) system is in order. >>First off gm has a resistor embedded in their keys. TRUE This can >>have one of 15 resistance values. When five volts is >>applied to that resistor one of fifteen voltage values results I beg to differ my good man. While installing the '89 350 TPI into my '58, I had to crack the VATS enigma. What I found out was that the resistor in the key provided a voltage to the VATS module. The VATS module would then send about a 30hz signal to the ecm to say "a-okay". The ecm would then allow the injectors to fire. I built my VATs defeater from a 555 timer. Configured it to go +5v to groung. The ECM will provide the +5v, you just need to ground it at about 30hz. >>The older ones >>used a separate VATS module which makes life easier. No info on the newer units. I was told they use a 40hz signal with a module. Good luck, and keep us informed. GMD ------------------------------ From: pfenske@xxx.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:17:50 -0700 Subject: Re: EFI Algorithms > >Unless I'm missing something, if you use input capture on a 68HC11, your >resolution should improve as the speed decreases (period increases) > > RPM = Constant/ pulse_period > > dRPM ~ Constant/ (pulse_period^2) > >At low speeds, minor changes in speed equal larger incremental changes in the >period. > >My personal experience with input capture was less than satisfying, but it does >work, although you have to keep track of overflows if your period exceeds >2^16 E cycles. > > >Cliff Ducharme > >P.S. I did finish my EFI B&S, and at the ripe old age of 44 have my BSEE. >(If anyone is interested, I'll put my project paper out on the Web.) > >Tnx Cliff. >The algorithm I wish to use would be a linear number between 0 and 255 >representing 25 rpm increments. Anyways works on paper but have yet to >try it. The previous algorithm works by returning a no between 0 and 15 >each number representing 400 rpm increments. A fraction is also returned >This worked on a running motor. Yes the overflow is tacky but is only >envoked when you do the switchover from start mode to runmode and >the engine revs between these two modes. (depending on divisors) >Am curious did you find any conflicts between the interrupts. >I ended up using RTI at a 160 rate for most of the calcs and >the input capture. More interrupts more often then not scrambled >everything which in a running motor could be exciting. >Very interested in all efi software cliff. If you can't post it send >it to me direct at pfenske@xxx.ca Tnx much: peter ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 08:33:56 Subject: Re: Why water injection? Thanks guys, the info is much appreciated. How do you think the cold enrichment injector on a GM TPI system would go for injection and place of injection point. I'm currently running an aftermarket FI system and not using the cold injector. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Why water injection? Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/13/96 5:27 AM > Could someone please enlighten me as to why you would run water into > your engine. How does this stop knocking ? Is it some type of carbon > clean while you drive ? Does it increase power ? etc, etc. I have > only heard about it, but know nothing about it. > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au The short and sweet answer is more power. This is an noticable improvement. I use 30-70 mph tests in 3rd gear. I was running 9.3's, and have dropped that to 8.7's with water injection. Note that this test uses of off cam off turbo portion as well as the higher rpm regions. In a little more detail, water evaporation densifies the air going into the engine, steam provides a powerful antidetonant, and the engine can run cooler. With forced induction, this means you can then turn up the boost for yet more power. I plan on running at 18 psig with a 7.0:1 compression engine, giving about 275 hp out of 2.15 liters. ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Instrumentation Information > Practical EFI knowledge. I guess the level of the text would be Advanced > Undergraduate/Graduate level. If anyone can recommend a text, I'd > appreciate the title, author, publisher, and date so I can do a search at > the library and/or order more easily. My location, Huntsville, AL, is a > missile town and books on automotive engineering are hard to find. > > John Brewer The best general book I have found is "Fuel Injection-Installation, Performance Tuning, modifications" by Jeff Hartman. It's softbound and ISBN # is: 0-87938-743-2, about $20. It follows several projects for concept to end- very practical info. frank parker 93 Civic EX vtec custom turbo 89 S-10, 350 V-8 DFI/SuperRam > > > ------------------------------ From: thoffman@xxx.net (Tim Hoffman) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:04:35 GMT Subject: Re: Why water injection? On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:52:20 -0700, you wrote: >The short and sweet answer is more power. This is an noticable >improvement. I use 30-70 mph tests in 3rd gear. I was running >9.3's, and have dropped that to 8.7's with water injection. >Note that this test uses of off cam off turbo portion as well >as the higher rpm regions. > >In a little more detail, water evaporation densifies the air >going into the engine, steam provides a powerful antidetonant, >and the engine can run cooler. With forced induction, this >means you can then turn up the boost for yet more power. >I plan on running at 18 psig with a 7.0:1 compression engine, >giving about 275 hp out of 2.15 liters. What engine is that and how is your system configured? Are you injecting the water before the turbo for better vaporization or after? Tim Please Note New Address: thoffman@xxx.net ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #165 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".