DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 18 June 1996 Volume 01 : Number 170 In this issue: Re: Water injection and GMs TPI Re: EFI questions and answers water injection? Ford's 182k plug change Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Build their own 5th wheel? Re[2]: Water injection and GMs TPI Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Edlebrock 3500 EFI system Re: water injection? Ford's 182k plug change Re: Edlebrock 3500 EFI system Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Parker Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:35:30 -0600 (EDT) Subject: Re: Water injection and GMs TPI > > While on the subject of the GM TPI's, since I'm now using an > aftermarket computer (no enrichment injector needed), would it be > feasible to replumb to a water tank and use the cold enrichment > injector for water injection ? > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > Sounds reasonable, but take a look and see how well distribution would be from that location. I have heard that a NO2 fogger nozzle and a higher pressure ( >30 psi) pump gives better atomization of the water. Frank Parker 93 Civic vtec custom turbo 89 S-10 L-98/superRam/DFI > > ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:03:13 +0500 Subject: Re: EFI questions and answers "The MAF's measure equally in both directions and don't know which way it's going so they tend to jump their reading up at high resonance periods or turbo pressure blow back." Some MAF's are bypass type, such as Ford's(not quite sure what you've been seeing out there since the one you describe doesn't sound like a bypass type). This type is not designed to measure equally in both directions. I know of one person who successfully uses one for a 650hp racing vehicle. Certain OEM turbo air routings are designed to dump pressure back into the inlet system downstream of the MAF, not to atmosphere. I've heard of many people altering their system to dump to atmosphere. Then they wonder why their vehicle's drivability suffers. Like you say, if you do that, the MAF is now measuring more than the engine is acutally consuming. "The Ford guys don't weem to bring up th efact that Ford systems will not allow actual readings of sensors, just a listing of whether or not readings are within parameters. Not!" Huh? Why bring up the obvious? Show me a sensor that put's out degrees Celcius(or rpm or hp etc) and I'll show you a signal processor that converts voltage(current, frequency, etc) into scientific units. I don't understand your beef. ------------------------------ From: ehernan3@xxx.com (Edward Hernandez (R)) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:56:51 +0500 Subject: water injection? Ford's 182k plug change Water injection's primary benefit is reducing combustion temperatures as it turns into steam, allowing more spark advance without detonation, as some have already posted. It doesn't alter air charge temperatures to a significant degree unless you are well above 100 C, which is possible and common with forced induction. BTW, forced engines would see higher gains by improving intercooler efficiency since water doesn't burn and displaces combustible charge. Yes, it takes a lot of energy(heat) to do evaporate water, but it's usually worth more than the spark you would have had to retard. Alcohol was primarily an antifreeze with the side benefit of being combustible, but that adds heat that you are trying to absorb. Not enough of alky was used in water injection(which has it's origins in piston driven aircraft engines) to account for an appreciable drop in intake charge temperatures. For those designing their own, consider a MAP sensor to drive your systems based on an approximation of engine load. I know this can be more complicated than purely mechanical systems. I have used the Edelbrock version for six years, and I've been pretty happy with it. It has a MAP sensor and reads rpm, allowing the user to adjust flow rate based on rpm and engine vacuum, and also the injection starting point. I like the one somebody in the list built which is driven by turbo pressure. Clever! "The plugs had been replaced 1 time in 182,000 miles!" Shhhhh! Next thing you know, everyong will want a 182k tuneup interval! :) Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: ws6transam@xxx.net (Daniel R Burk) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:07:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? I'm building myself a race analysis package for an upcoming "run for fun" drag race at Milan dragway in Michigan on July 27th. Here is what I've come up with so far, as well as my questions concerning the acquisition of speed and distance. I'm using a GM-designed ProDAS model 6 data acquisition system to record my data. It has inputs for analog, digital, and differential/single-ended frequency signals. In addition it can "count" the pulses from the frequency input. (Also known as the trigger.) I will be recording these signals: RPM forward and rearward acceleration in G's Distance traveled in feet Speed in MPH. The first two signals come from the ignition, and an Analog Devices 1 axis accelerometer. The second two are going to come from a 5th wheel that I want to make from 10 speed bicycle tire. Has anyone had any experience with making one of these? I am going to make a light aluminum frame for the wheel that attaches to the rear bumper of the car. The frame will have a photo diode and an LED mounted on it so as to do one of two things: Illuminate the Photodiode continuously, such that the light beam is broken by the spokes. Reflect the light off the aluminum rim, which has been painted with flat black paint, except for radial dashes every fifteen degrees. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on how I can improve this design? Any suggestions for an LED/Photo-receptor package that is not influenced by stray light? - --- Dan. ws6transam@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Bruce Bowling Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:09:32 EDT Subject: Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? ~ ~ I'm building myself a race analysis package for an upcoming "run for fun" ~ drag race at Milan dragway in Michigan on July 27th. Here is what I've come ~ up with so far, as well as my questions concerning the acquisition of speed and ~ distance. ~ ~ I'm using a GM-designed ProDAS model 6 data acquisition system to record my ~ data. It has inputs for analog, digital, and differential/single-ended ~ frequency signals. In addition it can "count" the pulses from the frequency ~ input. (Also known as the trigger.) ~ I will be recording these signals: ~ RPM ~ forward and rearward acceleration in G's ~ Distance traveled in feet ~ Speed in MPH. ~ ~ The first two signals come from the ignition, and an Analog Devices 1 axis ~ accelerometer. The second two are going to come from a 5th wheel that I want ~ to make from 10 speed bicycle tire. Has anyone had any experience with ~ making one of these? I am going to make a light aluminum frame for the ~ wheel that attaches to the rear bumper of the car. The frame will have a ~ photo diode and an LED mounted on it so as to do one of two things: ~ Illuminate the Photodiode continuously, such that the light beam is ~ broken by the spokes. ~ ~ Reflect the light off the aluminum rim, which has been painted with ~ flat black paint, except for radial dashes every fifteen degrees. ~ ~ Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on how I can improve ~ this design? Any suggestions for an LED/Photo-receptor package that is not ~ influenced by stray light? ~ ~ --- Dan. ~ ~ ws6transam@xxx.net ~ ~ The nice thing about this setup is that RPM, position, and acceleration can be cross-checked between the sensors, in that acceleration can be integrated to get velocity which should correspond with the 5th wheel. Also, slippage in the drivetrain/wheels will show up in correlations between RPM and 5th wheel. If you are going to use the data to obtain engine power or torque, be sure to correct for the current operating conditions (temp, barometer, humidity) to a "standard" condition so you can compare with other runs in the future. Playing with some of the vehicle motion simulators written by Al Grippo, I have found that 20 samples a second is a good number, in that adding more samples/second did not greatly change simulation output, but having less than 20 Hz did affect results. This result should apply to your measurement, since you will be doing the same computations. The simulations discussed above determine acceleration, and then compute position and velocity by numeric integration. Since numeric integration is generally less error-prone than numeric differentiation (i.e. going from position to velocity and acceleration) I would convert the accelerometer readings to velocity and position, and then perform the correlations. Your experiment is of great interest to me (and I am sure others), so please post your results! - - Bruce - -- - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- Bruce A. Bowling Staff Scientist - Instrumentation and Controls The Continuous Electron Beam Accelerator Facility 12000 Jefferson Ave - Newport News, VA 23602 (804) 249-7240 bowling@xxx.gov http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling - ----------------------------------------------------- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: orin@xxx.com (Orin Eman) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? > The first two signals come from the ignition, and an Analog Devices 1 axis > accelerometer. The second two are going to come from a 5th wheel that I want > to make from 10 speed bicycle tire. Has anyone had any experience with > making one of these? I am going to make a light aluminum frame for the > wheel that attaches to the rear bumper of the car. The frame will have a > photo diode and an LED mounted on it so as to do one of two things: > Illuminate the Photodiode continuously, such that the light beam is > broken by the spokes. > > Reflect the light off the aluminum rim, which has been painted with > flat black paint, except for radial dashes every fifteen degrees. > > Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on how I can improve > this design? Any suggestions for an LED/Photo-receptor package that is not > influenced by stray light? Why not use a bicycle computer pickup - a magnet (or however many you want) bolted to the spokes and the pickup coil bolted to the wheel's mount? Orin. ------------------------------ From: pfenske@xxx.ca (peter paul fenske) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:56:37 -0700 Subject: Build their own 5th wheel? chomp....... accelerometer. The second two are going to come from a 5th wheel that I want ~ broken by the spokes. >~ munch....... >~ Reflect the light off the aluminum rim, which has been painted with >~ flat black paint, except for radial dashes every fifteen degrees. >~ >~ Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on how I can improve >~ this design? Any suggestions for an LED/Photo-receptor package that is not >~ influenced by stray light? >~ >~ --- Dan. >~ >~ ws6transam@xxx.net >Hi Dan >Check the Jameco Electronics catalog for some long wavelength >lasers and phototransistors. 1000 nm will reduce ambient light >errors to a minimum and the added power will swamp any noise. >For an idea how to do this look at a mid eighties camaro speedo >Had a similiar setup for VSS. >Cheap way to get speed and distance is to use a taxi cab speedo >reed switch although drive from the speedo would be more >inaccurate then from a fifth wheel. >Also a friend of mine used a mag trigger working off the front rotor >to get similiar info. We usually find the track officials unfriendly >here. Made me take the Vericom off once. >Just a few cents >GL: Peter ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 08:09:42 Subject: Re[2]: Water injection and GMs TPI Unfortunately the manifold is on the car, so it'll be a bit hard to see if the cold enrichment injector hole evenly feeds to all cylinders (you would imagine it would). Does anyone know where in the TPI the cold enrichment injector injects into ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Water injection and GMs TPI Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/17/96 8:43 PM > > While on the subject of the GM TPI's, since I'm now using an > aftermarket computer (no enrichment injector needed), would it be > feasible to replumb to a water tank and use the cold enrichment > injector for water injection ? > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > Sounds reasonable, but take a look and see how well distribution would be from that location. I have heard that a NO2 fogger nozzle and a higher pressure ( >30 psi) pump gives better atomization of the water. Frank Parker 93 Civic vtec custom turbo 89 S-10 L-98/superRam/DFI > > ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 08:17:42 Subject: Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Why not use the inductive pick-up of a bike computer (you are using the wheel of a bike). They are very small and work extremely well for any application requiring a wheel signal. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/18/96 3:34 AM cut Does anyone have any suggestions or comments on how I can improve this design? Any suggestions for an LED/Photo-receptor package that is not influenced by stray light? - --- Dan. ws6transam@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: eric_e@xxx.com (Eric Elliott ) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:07:31 -0700 Subject: Edlebrock 3500 EFI system Hello, A new Edelbrock 3500 EFI system is on my bench awaiting installation in my truck. I could collect some information from the mechanical hardware before installation. Any requests? I have some dimensional measuring equipmen t. Edelbrock tech support said the injectors are inclined 55 degrees from horizontal and the air manifold is derived from the Victor Jr. Any requests for information from the manuals? The manuals are copywrited, can I distribute or post copies for non-commercial purposes? The installation manual is good. It could be most helpful to a DIY project. The Owners manual gives Edelbrock, GM and Bosch part numbers for parts. Many graphs describe the fuel, spark, vacuum, and RPM data used for the 350 SBC and how the data varies with different cams. Charts describe factors needed to change the data for differing displacements, exhaust systems and valve sizes. The control pendant has a about a two line by 24 charactor display. Consequently, all data is either numeric or short bar graph. Man y flow charts describe sequences of reading and changing data points. The text describes of EFI system operation, engine operation modes and requirements for reliable engine operation. Typical adjustment and effects of a re well described. In short, I believe the manuals should be used as guides to people doing the: interface program for the EFI332 basic operating data used for first run of an engine with EFI332 text for troubleshooting, installation, adaption, first operation and TUNING The distributor adaption is includes defeating advance mechanisms and addition of the hall effect device and shutter blade unit. One shutter blade is narrow for sensing of cylinder one timing; ten degrees BTDC static tim ing and cylinder one reference are needed for sequential injector pulses. Perhaps this scheme is common, but new to me and perhaps applicable to crankshaft mounted sensors. 60 teeth, including one narrow tooth? Injection duration is a user variable. Injector timing is not user variable, and is controlled for best fuel vaporization. Ignition timing is a user variable, coil saturation is not. Edelbrock had a bad (expensive) customer support experience with a previous fuel system and will not sell partial systems nor support systems adapted to extreme or non-SBC engines. They refused to sell me fuel rails, air manifold or throttle valve, one or all. Except that the 68HC11 based system doesn’t do spark knock detection, I am happy with it. Will write notes as I install and tune. Maybe my opinion of the system will change. The mechanical parts will be used again with the EFI332. For $1780 I have a (to be) complete working high performance EFI system into which the EFI332 can be connected. Eric ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 22:55:37 -0700 Subject: Re: water injection? Ford's 182k plug change dosen't the water injection also clean the carbon out of the combustion chambers? does any one know the cold enrichment table and idle rpm tables for an 1988 buick regal 2.8 l fwd. having cold start problem s have the newest memcal . also need the formulas for calculating proper binary values "have them for the grand national ;uses diffrent ecm. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 13:37:36 Subject: Re: Edlebrock 3500 EFI system Technically you can't copy it, but who's to know if you send a few copies to people (scan and email). I would love to see a copy if possible. Any mention what sort of HP can be expected from a reasonably stock 350 with extractors and a mild cam when this system is fitted ? Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Edlebrock 3500 EFI system Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 6/18/96 1:22 PM Hello, A new Edelbrock 3500 EFI system is on my bench awaiting installation in my truck. I could collect some information from the mechanical hardware before installation. Any requests? I have some dimensional measuring equipmen t. Edelbrock tech support said the injectors are inclined 55 degrees from horizontal and the air manifold is derived from the Victor Jr. Any requests for information from the manuals? The manuals are copywrited, can I distribute or post copies for non-commercial purposes? The installation manual is good. It could be most helpful to a DIY project. The Owners manual gives Edelbrock, GM and Bosch part numbers for parts. Many graphs describe the fuel, spark, vacuum, and RPM data used for the 350 SBC and how the data varies with different cams. Charts describe factors needed to change the data for differing displacements, exhaust systems and valve sizes. The control pendant has a about a two line by 24 charactor display. Consequently, all data is either numeric or short bar graph. Man y flow charts describe sequences of reading and changing data points. The text describes of EFI system operation, engine operation modes and requirements for reliable engine operation. Typical adjustment and effects of a re well described. In short, I believe the manuals should be used as guides to people doing the: interface program for the EFI332 basic operating data used for first run of an engine with EFI332 text for troubleshooting, installation, adaption, first operation and TUNING The distributor adaption is includes defeating advance mechanisms and addition of the hall effect device and shutter blade unit. One shutter blade is narrow for sensing of cylinder one timing; ten degrees BTDC static tim ing and cylinder one reference are needed for sequential injector pulses. Perhaps this scheme is common, but new to me and perhaps applicable to crankshaft mounted sensors. 60 teeth, including one narrow tooth? Injection duration is a user variable. Injector timing is not user variable, and is controlled for best fuel vaporization. Ignition timing is a user variable, coil saturation is not. Edelbrock had a bad (expensive) customer support experience with a previous fuel system and will not sell partial systems nor support systems adapted to extreme or non-SBC engines. They refused to sell me fuel rails, air manifold or throttle valve, one or all. Except that the 68HC11 based system doesnt do spark knock detection, I am happy with it. Will write notes as I install and tune. Maybe my opinion of the system will change. The mechanical parts will be used again with the EFI332. For $1780 I have a (to be) complete working high performance EFI system into which the EFI332 can be connected. Eric ------------------------------ From: arthurok@xxx.com (ARTHUR OKUN ) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 01:05:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Anybody build their own 5th wheel? use a hall effect sensor with the magnet these things are used in car ignitions and also in vcrs as speed sensors. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #170 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".