DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 12 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 196 In this issue: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers RE: Bosch ECU Schematics Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers re: Re: cypress FPGA tools Re: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers ALDL Communications... Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments RE: GM mass airflow sensor Re: ALDL Communications... Re: GM Mass Airflow Sensor RE: EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ljp2@xxx. Plebani) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:51:52 EDT Subject: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc. Lou Plebani ljp2@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: "Orin Harding" Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 08:54:55 UT Subject: RE: Bosch ECU Schematics I don't know if this will be what you're looking for, but there is a company in the UK that makes what they call an "implant" for the BOSCH Motronic. This allows complete user programming of the Motronic ECU. The company is: General Engine Management Systems Limited Unit A1/D, Thorpe Techno Park Crabtree Road, Egham, Surrey, TW2 8RN, England Phone: +44 (0) 784 470525 Fax: +44 (0) 784 470527 Contact name: Richard Armitage Hope this helps Orin Primary e-mail address: orin@xxx.com Secondary e-mail address: NAMGBR@xxx.net Check our WEB site: www.deltacp.com Phone/Fax: (910) 854-3232 Mobil Phone: (910) 601-8418 - ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu on behalf of John Dammeyer Sent: Thursday, July 11, 1996 7:33 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Bosch ECU Schematics At 06:09 PM 10/07/1996 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:31 PM 6/11/96 +0000, you wrote: >>I am looking for Bosch ECU Schematics for the following cars: >> >>BMW 530i, 1978 >>Datsun 280Z, 1975-1978 >>Datsun/Nissan 280ZX, 1979-1983 (incl. turbo). >> >>If anyone has any schematics for the ECUs for these cars, any or all >>of them, in any format, please let me know. Also, if anyone knows of >>any good source of information on these systems, I'd love to see it. >> As I understand it the Bosch uses the CAN bus for communications. Your first step in reverse engineering or even monitoring the system would be to determine which two wires make up RT+ and RT-. Then attach a suitable CAN card monitor and eavesdrop. Coupled with logging other real time info such as engine RPM there is a likelyhood that you would be able to determine which messages say what. But.... other than reporting some sort of status or replacing completely a particular module I'm not sure what you'd do with it. John. Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: Flavio.Corradini@xxx.it Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 16:34:28 +0200 Subject: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers - --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Message" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE > block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be > aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone > suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle > bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc. > > Lou Plebani > ljp2@xxx.edu > - --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="MMWW" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After Market EFI Systems: Magneti Marelli - Weber UK 42-46 Somers Road - Rugby Warwickshire CV22 7DH - Great Britain Tel. 44-1788/532302 - Fax 1788/532307 OEM EFI Systems: Magneti Marelli - Weber USA 37483 Interchange Drive Farmington Hills, MI 48335 - USA Tel. 1-810/4715513 - Fax 810/4715530 - --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name=".signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | Magneti Marelli S.p.A. Flavio Corradini | | Engine Control Division EMail: corradini@xxx.it | | Via Timavo, 33 Tel.: +39 51 6157.835/6157.011 | | I-40134 Bologna (ITALY) Fax.: +39 51 6157.782/6157.020 | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ - --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name=".snote" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | The views expressed here are not necessarily those of my firm| +--------------------------------------------------------------+ - --openmail-part-007fa628-00000001-- ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 9:53:39 CDT Subject: re: Re: cypress FPGA tools Darrell Norquay Wrote: | | Don't you mean Warp2? Warp4 is the full enchilada, timing simulator and | all, and it sells for US$5000! I know, 'cause I just took a Cypress VHDL | seminar last week, and got a copy of Warp2, along with a CD full of | libraries, Warp2 for several platforms including the MAC and Sun, the VHDL | text, and a 1 day intensive VHDL course for CDN$99. Yes, WARP 2 is the package I was referring to. Warp 2 is the full enchilada for CPLD devices. Cypress CPLD parts have a very simple timing model, so the simulator is included. For FPGAs, you do need the more expensive package, which also includes schematic capture, etc. | | >The download cable/software wasn't available at the time, although it | >should be now. I need to call back and see. The download cable/software | >works with all of the Cypress "ISR" chips (in system reprogrammable). | | The guys at the seminar gave me the impression that they haven't released | their ISP devices yet, due out in August, I think. They didn't mention the | download cable + software. Warp2 just generates JEDEC files which you need | a pricey device programmer to use. I'm pretty sure they offerred me some samples of the ISP devices, but maybe not. Once they are available, if they aren't already, you won't need the pricey programmer. That's what makes this deal so attractive. For $200 ($99 for WARP 2, and $99 for the download software/cable) you can program your own CPLDs in VHDL. Cypress is pretty generous with samples, also. Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:23:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Non-Electronic Materials Suppliers MSD Fuel systems in Texas has a bunch of stuff. Also you may want to find TURBO magazine (not all places have it) but they always have a bunch of adds for Injectors, and things like that. At 08:51 AM 7/11/96 EDT, you wrote: >As part of my efi project I need to fabricate a manifold for my 427 ci FE >block Ford. In order to evaluate design alternatives, I would like to be >aware of the availability and price of potential components. Could someone >suggest suppliers for injectors, fuel rails, throttle bodies, Weber throttle >bodies (with injector boss), pumps, regulators, etc. > > Lou Plebani > ljp2@xxx.edu > ------------------------------ From: Donald Whisnant Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:13 -0400 Subject: ALDL Communications... A while back, several of you guys were hooking up your ALDL serial connectors to your pc's ... I believe I even received a copy of the software to change the pc serial port to something near 8192 baud... What I was wondering (since I'm planning to try to hook mine up this weekend and do some reading) is what the signal levels are on the aldl serial line ... Is it 0 to 12v or is it 0 to 5v?? And, is it inverted?? I was thinking about using either MAX203 or MAX233 RS-232 signal level converters, but they are designed for 0-5 with standard non-inverted inputs ... If it is inverted or is 0-12 instead of 0-5, I'll need to put a transistor or two on the front of the MAX chip to change it's level and/or polarity... Either way is no big deal and I'm hoping someone can answer this so that I won't have to drag the oscilloscope outside to check it... Thanks .... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:07:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments Brad Anesi wrote: > > Herewith the opinion of Don (ex-Alfa, now Fiat R&D): > > 9. Significant changes cannot be made by DIY, nor without a dyno. Not so, key driveability issues can and always will be attacked by in car testing. No dyno I've found yet can tell me how the thing will lurch along in traffic. > 11. There are other ways of increasing fuel delivery such as raising rail > pressure, larger nozzles, with larger AFM. But the intake runners and > valves have to be sized accordingly. But why, when the maps are so readily available? > 12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield > measurable differences. We've taken 911 Carrera's from 214 hp Normally aspirated to 250+hp normally aspirated and all the way to 765 Hp turbocharged, I tend to think that's measureable!! > > Conclusion: for DIY, it seems more cost effective to use carburetors and > a modern ignition system, leaving original EFI system intact for use later > at resale. This boy must be "SATAN", telling people on the DIY EFI list that Fuel injection should only be used later for resale and that carburetors are the only way to go. What a Schmuck. I'll put the OE EFI stuff up against carburetors any day. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering. ------------------------------ From: matthew@xxx.com (Matthew Wallis) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:28:11 EDT Subject: Re: Bosch Motronic AFM Spring Tension - Further Comments > > > 12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield > > measurable differences. Todd, Can you give some more details on this change. > > We've taken 911 Carrera's from 214 hp Normally aspirated to > 250+hp normally aspirated and all the way to 765 Hp turbocharged, I tend > to think that's measureable!! > > > > Conclusion: for DIY, it seems more cost effective to use carburetors and > > a modern ignition system, leaving original EFI system intact for use later > > at resale. ------------------------------ From: john spears Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 18:54 EST Subject: RE: GM mass airflow sensor I've seen several questions/comments about the output of GM MAF sensors. I ran an airflow vs. frequency output today on the LT1 MAF that is used on the high output aluminum head version (F and Y car) and also on the LT4 (Y car). This is the largest diameter MAF sensor (3.5" O.D.) used on GM engines I beleive, so it would support the most HP. The flow is in grams/second and the output is in kilohertz. 5gm/sec = 2 khz (idle) 50gm/sec = 5.0khz 100gm/sec = 6.7khz 150gm/sec = 7.7khz 200gm/sec = 8.5khz 250gm/sec = 9.2khz 300gm/sec = 9.7khz 335gm/sec = 10 khz (max) I hope that's of some value. John Spears ------------------------------ From: Gary W Harris Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 17:24:00 PDT Subject: Re: ALDL Communications... Text item: Don, The serial data is 0--5 volt simplex, and needs to be converted to RS-232 for the PC. I use a maxim chip powered from a 9-volt battery to do this. A diode and pull-up resistor are also necessary to "wire-or" the PC TxD to the ECU's simplex data line. This works great! I have a schematic, but it's in Viewlogic format. I can snail-mail you if you send me your address. Gary Harris A while back, several of you guys were hooking up your ALDL serial connectors to your pc's ... I believe I even received a copy of the software to change the pc serial port to something near 8192 baud... What I was wondering (since I'm planning to try to hook mine up this weekend and do some reading) is what the signal levels are on the aldl serial line ... Is it 0 to 12v or is it 0 to 5v?? And, is it inverted?? I was thinking about using either MAX203 or MAX233 RS-232 signal level converters, but they are designed for 0-5 with standard non-inverted inputs ... If it is inverted or is 0-12 instead of 0-5, I'll need to put a transistor or two on the front of the MAX chip to change it's level and/or polarity... Either way is no big deal and I'm hoping someone can answer this so that I won't have to drag the oscilloscope outside to check it... Thanks .... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@xxx.com Text item: External Message Header The following mail header is for administrative use and may be ignored unless there are problems. ***IF THERE ARE PROBLEMS SAVE THESE HEADERS***. Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Precedence: bulk Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: ALDL Communications... To: diy_efi@xxx.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) From: Donald Whisnant Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:13 -0400 Message-ID: <31E54F3D.463C@xxx.com> Received: from indycar by atl.lmco.com (8.6.13/ATL 1.14) with SMTP id PAA18719; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:26 -0400 Received: from atl.lmco.com (hannibal.ATL.LMCO.COM [166.20.244.250]) by franklin .vf.lmco.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA30143 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from franklin.vf.lmco.com ([166.17.5.51]) by dekalb.vf.mmc.com (8.7.5/ 8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05506 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dekalb.vf.mmc.com by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu via ESMTP (940816 .SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) for id PAA13562; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:0 1:24 -0400 Received: by coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI) id TAA13574; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:01:48 GMT Received: from coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu (coulomb.eng.ohio-state.edu [128.146.9 0.150]) by ormail.intel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28993 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ormail.intel.com (ormail.intel.com [134.134.248.3]) by relay.jf.i ntel.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24183 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 1996 13:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: jimmy staton Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 19:31:37 -0500 Subject: Re: GM Mass Airflow Sensor jimmy staton wrote: > > RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: > > > > >>>I'm curious if anybody has a clue as to the upper (frequency > > output) limit of the currently used GM mass-airflow sensor.<<< > > > > does 9600 Hz make any sense? > > the GM manual I have has the freq listed as 30HZ-150HZ unless that has > changed, last 1 I checked was out of an 1982 Firebird and that was > right. The GM training manual I have lists 2.8L,3.0L,3.8L as freq based type it lists the 5.0L,5.7L & Bosch as analog. ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 18:31:53 -0600 Subject: RE: EFI FORGIVE ME ALL .. I just HAD to answer this one .. a bit late due to the holiday, but REPLY I MUST .. At 16:28 7/6/96 -0700, you wrote: >Feel free to share with the EFI DIY list. Herewith the opinion of Don >(ex-Alfa, now Fiat R&D): Ok .. well .. IMHO .. It's time for Fiat to hire me then.. >The EFI discussion is difficult: one must first know if the system is >analog or digital and to which degree of autoadaptivity is provided. >Example: Fiat uses/has used _many_ executions of Bosch Motronic alone, >many L-Jet, Monotronic, Weber-Marelli, Rochester, Hitachi.... We are talking about Bosch Motronic.. Digital Motor Electronics utilizing Multi-Point Fuel Injectors .. I have worked on Alfa, Ferrari, BMW, Porsche and VW systems .. my expertise is with mostly BMW .. others like Todd Knighton are the gurus at things like Porsches .. >1. Forget that the closed loop O2 sensor function will correct, in the >end, any minor changes upstream. It will, but that does not seem to be the >issue. We talk open loop. Fine .. >2. Spring tension makes a difference only during _transient_ movement and >will enrichen until steady state, where it has no effect. There is no >effect at WOT as you are already using the longest pulse found in the >look-up table (MAP) for that set of parameters. Umm .. Motronic does NOT look up PULSE WIDTHS .. It MEASURES air .. calculates LOAD from AIR and RPM and a constant (based upon injector size) then corrects for operation conditions (maps) to yeild injector PW .. Changing the "air" measurement DOES indeed change the AFR .. Not to argue this to death, but I've HAD cars on the 5 gas and SEEN it happen when I had to UNDO the "tweaking" that someone had done to the "spring" in the AFM .. >3. Remember, electrons are faster than air! And .. >4. The base calibration is not always based on vane position: depends on >system. On EVERY Motronic I have disassembled .. the base cal is directly correlated to the AFM or AirMass sensor Voltage output .. >5. Even open-loop, later generations use autoadaptivity, which further >permits default corrections for components operating outside their spec. >ranges, within the ROM map. I'd like to see this .. I have seen no adaption outside of closed loop functionality .. I'm ready to sign the Fiat NDA .. >6. Aside from AFM vs inputs to controller, this signal is further >corrected by rpm, load, temps, etc., always cross-checking table for >correct fuel delivery before the O2 sensor. Yup .. these are the "operating conditions" I spoke of above .. Although LOAD is in fact the BASIS for the fuel injection and not a "correction" to it .. >7. To see the effects, get a J.C. Whitney A/F checker. NO WAY! .. all that will tell you is .. RICH or LEAN .. and that is that ... U need either a UEGO setup or a BOSCH LA-2 system >8. In systems with separate ignition controllers, more benefits can be had >by changing the spark map. Why not in systems with integrated spark also .. maps are easy to tweak! >9. Significant changes cannot be made by DIY, nor without a dyno. UNTRUE .. I have brought BMW M3's from 240 to 278HP with the Torque raised from 225 to 252 lb/ft at peak .. this is VERY significant and only a bit of that tuning was EVER done on a dyno .. >10. Perceptions and stop-watch times do not always concur. No, but a state of the art DynoJet dyno never lies! >11. There are other ways of increasing fuel delivery such as raising rail >pressure, larger nozzles, with larger AFM. But the intake runners and >valves have to be sized accordingly. All KLUDGES, it is much easier to apply a complex mathematical function to the existing fuel maps .. >12. Our experiences with DIY modified EFI systems do not yield measurable >differences. Well, Fiat .. loan me a car, and I'll tune it tighter than you've ever seen one tuned .. Jim Conforti ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #196 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".