DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 13 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 229 In this issue: Re:hego RE: My DIY EFI FORD EEC Re: "Dropping" resistors ?? Throttle Bodies - Cost Re: HEGOs Re:hego Getting a hold of Kirk Arwood Re: hego Re: hego Improving a Rover? HaHaHa HEGO Re: Throttle Bodies - Cost Re: hego Re: hego Re: Forwarded: Header insulation RE: hego RE: Throttle Bodies - Cost Re: HEGO Re: hego See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jedc@xxx.au (Arthur Clampitt) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:15:30 -0400 Subject: Re:hego >> ------------------------------ >> >> From: DJohn77284@xxx.com >> Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 12:52:48 -0400 >> Subject: HEGOs >> >> Can anyone offer advice in using a HEGO to set up carbs. > >Well, I've done it with Bosch K-jetronic, and the principles are the >same. > > I know it's not EFI >> but while I try to develope my own EFI system it's all I've got. > >I believe there's a efi factory system available for your application, >but it's british, and sucks.(Can you tell, I'm Irish?) > >> At the moment I can achieve a brilliant setup at idle (using a CO meter) and >> snap throttle is also crisp, albeit with no load, but out on the road heavy >> applications of the throttle produces black exhaust like it's way too rich. >> >> I can't use my CO meter as the response is too slow so I was wondering about >> using a HEGO sensor stuffed up the tail pipe. > >Hego sensors need to be HOT to work, and it won't be if stuffed up >the backside. > Am I out of order ? I always thought the "h" in hego stood for heated ? ------------------------------ From: Tim Drury Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:08:54 -0400 Subject: RE: My DIY EFI >is a serial 8-channel 10-bits ADC. For the outputs at the moment I'm thinking >of using MC3334s for the ignition and an MC33298 for the injection. Does >anyone have any views on these chips or experience on equivalents? I used the MC3334 in an ignition system. Refer to http://spbted.gtri.gatech.edu/hpe/hpe.html for details. It is a really nice chip. As for samples, that is how I do most of my prototypes. And most companies will give you samples if you don't exceed some $$ amount. I've gotten four 68HC16's from Motorola in the past, so cost won't be a problem. - -tim ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:48:23 -0500 Subject: FORD EEC I would like to find source for _ANY_ Ford EFI controller, or any part of it. thanks, tom cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 08:07:10 -0500 Subject: Re: "Dropping" resistors ?? > Honda used to use the same type resistors as well as the Porsche 914's >with L-Jetronic Fuel Injection. Those might be sources for you, but >even simpler might be Radio Shack. They have some 8ohm 50watt ballast >resistors that we've used in the past for a similar app. They work fine >and dissipate plenty of heat. They have a few other ratings close to >this but that one might be the best and cheapest alternative. > >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering >Email: knighton@xxx.com > > Todd, et al A word of caution: Beware of Radio Shack!! I buy parts (and occasionally a piece of equipment) there -- but, I feel I know enough to judge whether it's really what I want or not. It's like buying a hammer out of the $1.99 bin at a store rather than a good $20.00 job. If you really know about hammers, then the 99 cent one might be just what you want -- but the neophyte buying the same hammer might try to do a "real" job with it. An example: you can't get a good soldering iron for $5.99. I have a box full of Radio Shack soldering irons discarded by students that didn't heed my advice, only to learn through their own experience. Try Digi-Key for good parts at fair prices -- especially resistors, caps, semis. Try Mouser for more mechanical type things, e.g. rotary switches, cabinets, transformers, etc. (though the quality of some of their products is also poor). Try Active Electronics for more specialized I.C.'s, etc. Obviously, places like Pioneer, Newark, Allied (recently owned and raped by Radio Shack / Tandy), who are suppliers to industrial OEM's, will have top-of-the-line parts but their prices are high. A rule-of-thumb: if they make a catalog, their prices are higher. Most "industrial" vendors do not have catalogs, only "line sheets". The exception to this rule are the "mail-order" types (Digi-Key, Mouser, etc.) that specialize in supplying parts in small quantities to the small business and hobbyist. Sorry for the excess verbage -- it's just that, after all that work, why would you want to put a part in your project that has a high probability of being substandard - -- AND COSTS MORE ?? The advantage of Radio Shack to me is that they are there, they are open on Saturday, and I don't have to wait several days to get what I want. If I can wait -- I shop somewhere else. Hope this helps, tom cloud ------------------------------ From: Paul Shackleton Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 14:34:00 BST Subject: Throttle Bodies - Cost Does anyone know how much throttle bodies cost. ie the ones that look like DCOEs/DHLAs. Also does anyone besides Weber (Alpha) or Lumenition sell them in Britain? Thanks Paul ------------------------------ From: walter.kaufmann@xxx.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:48:36 +0200 Subject: Re: HEGOs >I can't use my CO meter as the response is too slow so I was wondering about >using a HEGO sensor stuffed up the tail pipe. Will using the O2 sensor in >this position give accurate enough results (for carbs anyway) as all the >applications I've seen have the sensor located somewhere around the manifold. The threat of the HEGO I use is M18x1,5. It is 20 cm from the exhaust valve away in the outlet manyfold. The working temarature should be between 300 (heated 200) celsius and 800 celsius, so it is in a small tube weldet to the exhaust with a 10mm hole. So the sensor is not directly in the exhaust and the temp don't go above 800 C. Walter ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:35:57 -0700 Subject: Re:hego >Am I out of order ? I always thought the "h" in hego stood for heated ? > Yes, but even a heated EGO needs more heat from the exhaust to work properly. Put one after a turbo or at the collector of a header and you will likely have problems at idle and low rpm light load running. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:13:45 -0400 Subject: Getting a hold of Kirk Arwood Jonathan Lloyd wrote: > I read it as k.arwood@xxx.com but as I said it doesnt seem to > work. I tried looking him up in the company electronic directory, and it couldn't find him. - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:18:08 -0400 Subject: Re: hego >Put one(HEGO) after a turbo or at the collector of a header > and you will likely have problems at idle and low rpm light load >running. I believe most factory turbo setups have the HEGO downstream of the turbine. I've owned two cars like this(Chrysler 2.2 and Mitsu 2.0), and they worked fine. Of course, BOTH of them had O2 sensor recalls that consisted of merely replacing the sensors(as opposed to relocating them). I still don't know why they were recalled, and I couldn't tell any difference in closed loop performance after the change. Anyone else seen factory setups with the HEGOs upstream of the turbine? - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Nass Jeff Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 12:49 EST Subject: Re: hego My '84 SVO was after the turbine. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ REPLY FROM: Nass Jeff Date: 1996-08-12 12:13 From: diy efi [MCI:diy efi \ EMS: INTERNET \ MBX: diy_efi@xxx.edu] CC: NassJeff To: diy efi [MCI:diy efi \ EMS: INTERNET \ MBX: diy_efi@xxx.edu] Subject: Re: hego - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MCI Mail date/time: Mon Aug 12, 1996 12:10 pm CDT Source date/time: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:18:08 -0400 - ------------------- >Put one(HEGO) after a turbo or at the collector of a header > and you will likely have problems at idle and low rpm light load >running. I believe most factory turbo setups have the HEGO downstream of the turbine. I've owned two cars like this(Chrysler 2.2 and Mitsu 2.0), and they worked fine. Of course, BOTH of them had O2 sensor recalls that consisted of merely replacing the sensors(as opposed to relocating them). I still don't know why they were recalled, and I couldn't tell any difference in closed loop performance after the change. Anyone else seen factory setups with the HEGOs upstream of the turbine? - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:30:15 -0400 Subject: Improving a Rover? HaHaHa Yeh, you're right, it does drive horrible. The worst thing I find is the steering is so light with like hardly any feedback - makes any bends at speed interesting..... As for you doing better with carburattors - it's on carburettors and I want to use efi to improve it - give us a clue why don't you?? My intentions are to use the manifold/fuel rail/throttle body from a Vitesse which uses a Lucas efi system. I don't mind using the mechanical bits and pieces but I don't want to use their electronics. I figured the easiest way to tinker with an ecu is to design one of my own and tinker with that. Do you really think that a hego is a necessity in a system? I thought that the only time that they had any effect was during idle - for emissions - and cruising - for economy.... Regards, Dave ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:33:43 -0400 Subject: HEGO Thanks for the advice on the use of HEGO sensors. If you reckon that they are still not heated enough unless placed somewhere in the manifold what would be you're advice for a V8 application - two sensors, one in each manifold used simulatneously or one sensor that's switched between the manifolds. What sort of accuracy would I be likely to expect if I was to place the sensor in the collector? You're right in saying that there is a factory efi application for this engine (Rover V8) - it's a Lucas model but the poeple with the most success that I've heard of is JE Engineering. They've done a lot of work on both single and twin plenum systems as well as developing engines for use in Rally Raids. If anyone's got any questions about Lucas systems then let me know as I'm shortly going to be spending some time in their factory so I should be in a good position to ask. Regards, Dave ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:33:32 -0400 Subject: Re: Throttle Bodies - Cost Have you looked at the ones produced by Jenvey Dynamics. They have throttle bodies to suit DCOE, IDF and singles (for the likes of Vauxhall/Opel). Prices vary from #66 for a single 45mm body to #340 for a pair of 50mm DCOE or IDF type bodies. You'll find them at:- Jenvey Dynamics Ltd, Building 2, Stanmore Industrial Estate, Bridgnorth, WV15 5HP Tel:- 01746 768810 Fax:- 01746 768363 I had the pleasure of visiting their factory and was impressed by the guy who runs the outfit. he was very helpfull and enthusiastic with his work. He's in the process of fitting his own throttle bodies to his Rover V8 and the engine's going to be prepare by JE Engineering. Hope this helps, Regards, Dave. ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:34:20 -0400 Subject: Re: hego I really want to check out the full load fuelling and acceleration enrichment. Do you think this would be possible if the hego is located near the tailpipe? If not what about in the collector? It's a V8 I'm using so I don't really want to modify both manifolds if I can help it. Regards, Dave ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:01:57 -0700 Subject: Re: hego >Anyone else seen factory setups with the HEGOs upstream of the turbine? My Mazda 323GTX had it before the turbo. I have a TEC on the car, and have had the sensor both before and after. It definitely does work better at Idle and low speed light loads when before the turbo. But it overheats much sooner there too, making tuning under boost more of a problem. I've recently gone to using a UEGO for power tuning, so things are much easier now. Fred ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:06:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Forwarded: Header insulation > I can't imagine you'll get too many mpg's out of this exercise, since > once the exhaust heat is out of the combustion chamber it can do no > further useful work, whatever its temperature (unless you have a > turbocharger). It's just waste heat from the exhaust port onwards! Except that in most engine bays, heat from the exhaust will affect inlet air temperatures. Even if you actually induct air from a cool source, the tracts through which air travels on the way to the combustion chamber are heated by ambient underhood air. Reduce underhood air temps and you will make a difference in performance. Fuel ecomony should actually suffer, though, since running cooler air requires a reduced throttle setting to make the same power, increasing pumping losses. Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Orin Harding" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 23:31:36 UT Subject: RE: hego My installation is in an MGB with the HEGO mounted in the exhaust about 3 1/2 feet (1 meter) from the exhaust ports. It works well there. I would think that in a V8 application it would work OK also if mounted as close as you can after the "Y". Primary e-mail address: orin@xxx.com Secondary e-mail address: NAMGBR@xxx.net Check our WEB site: www.deltacp.com Phone/Fax: (910) 854-3232 Mobil Phone: (910) 601-8418 - ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu on behalf of DJohn77284@xxx.com Sent: Monday, August 12, 1996 7:34 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: hego I really want to check out the full load fuelling and acceleration enrichment. Do you think this would be possible if the hego is located near the tailpipe? If not what about in the collector? It's a V8 I'm using so I don't really want to modify both manifolds if I can help it. Regards, Dave ------------------------------ From: "Orin Harding" Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 23:38:59 UT Subject: RE: Throttle Bodies - Cost Paul, I don't know about the UK but there is a company in California by the name of TWM that makes DCOE, IDF, etc. style throttle bodies. Cost for a twin 40mm IDF style is about US$300. I don't have the price sheets with me now (I'm in England at this time) but if you want I'll e-mail you when I get home next week with the prices. Quality is very good and they are a nice company to deal with. Orin Primary e-mail address: orin@xxx.com Secondary e-mail address: NAMGBR@xxx.net Check our WEB site: www.deltacp.com Phone/Fax: (910) 854-3232 Mobil Phone: (910) 601-8418 - ---------- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu on behalf of Paul Shackleton Sent: Monday, August 12, 1996 5:34 PM To: diy-EFI Subject: Throttle Bodies - Cost Does anyone know how much throttle bodies cost. ie the ones that look like DCOEs/DHLAs. Also does anyone besides Weber (Alpha) or Lumenition sell them in Britain? Thanks Paul ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 19:06 PDT Subject: Re: HEGO At 02:33 PM 8/12/96 -0400, Dave wrote: >Thanks for the advice on the use of HEGO sensors. >If you reckon that they are still not heated enough unless placed somewhere >in the manifold what would be you're advice for a V8 application - two >sensors, one in each manifold used simulatneously or one sensor that's >switched between the manifolds. What sort of accuracy would I be likely to >expect if I was to place the sensor in the collector? I have two mounted in header collectors on a V8. They seem to work OK, but are a little slow to warm up. They are the unheated type, however, as soon as these wear out I'll replace them with heated ones. BTW, I'm using a dual 10 LED bargraph display, mounted in a 2" gage housing in the dash. Simple, effective, and easy to read while driving, unlike the LCD multimeter... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 19:06 PDT Subject: Re: hego At 12:18 PM 8/12/96 -0400, Ed wrote: >turbine. I've owned two cars like this(Chrysler 2.2 and Mitsu 2.0), and >they worked fine. Of course, BOTH of them had O2 sensor recalls that >Ed Hernandez >Ford Motor Company What's this? A Ford engineer driving Chryslers and Mitsubishi's?!?! I bet you raised a few eyebrows in the parking lot in the morning... Jeez, don't they give you a discount or something over there? Seriously, Ed, nice to have you back. We miss your sagely advice and words of wisdom. Drop by a little more often... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #229 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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