DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 14 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 230 In this issue: HEGO & turbo Re: Improving a rover Re: HEGO Recycling list members! Renix EFI on Renault 21 Turbo Re: Throttle switch Re: Throttle switch Todd Knighton Re: Improving a rover Re: EGO sensors Importing a rover Re: HEGO See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: einarp@xxx.no (einarp) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 12:25:57 CET Subject: HEGO & turbo I expect the exhaust gas temperature to be more stable after the turbos. On high boost the temp before turbos are really high. But that's also when the turbos pumps more of the energy over to the intake side. At idle and low power, the turbos doesn't transfer energy very efficiently. So they will not take out much heat either. Wouldn't this make an installation after the turbos easier to predict and possibly compensate? Or are my assumptions fiction instead of facts? Einar@xxx.no - -- einarp@xxx.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Improving a rover >------------------------------ > >From: DJohn77284@xxx.com >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:30:15 -0400 >Subject: Improving a Rover? HaHaHa > >Yeh, you're right, it does drive horrible. The worst thing I find is the >steering is so light with like hardly any feedback - makes any bends at speed >interesting..... > >As for you doing better with carburattors - it's on carburettors and I want >to use efi to improve it - give us a clue why don't you?? Because rover got that engine from oldsmobile, and the olds ran better with a carb. Seriously if it were me I'd just get the rover FI manifold and throttle body, sensors, and harness and hook it up to whatever you build >My intentions are to use the manifold/fuel rail/throttle body from a Vitesse >which uses a Lucas efi system. What in the hell is a Vitesse? Maybe we should clarify some things here! I'm in the US, and here there are rovers with efi systems available, and no Vitesse.(whatever that is) I don't mind using the mechanical bits and >pieces but I don't want to use their electronics. I'll second that! I figured the easiest way >to tinker with an ecu is to design one of my own and tinker with that. Well, I don't know about easy, or price, which has a lot to do with it. It would seem that you could run a lucas brain long enough to develop the other and not have to shut down the vehicle though. WARNING- if you do this you may never get around to doing it right. >Do you really think that a hego is a necessity in a system? Well I wouldn't say necessary, but I damn sure like them as long as you can run pump gas. I find them extreemly beneficial for tuning and wouldn't want a system that didn't take advantage of them. Further I don't believe any speed density system that doesn't use one can be anywhere near as accurate over the life of the engine. I thought that >the only time that they had any effect was during idle - for emissions - and >cruising - for economy.... That depends on the objectives of the manufacturer, and mine are different than some committee's. Hopefully some of the folks on this list who know more about electronics than I do will come up with a system that's programable and uses some kind of ego.(That should read programable with a laptop computer, none of this knob on the dash junk and special propietary boxes and the like.) > >Regards, > >Dave ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: HEGO > >From: Darrell Norquay >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 19:06 PDT >Subject: Re: HEGO > >At 02:33 PM 8/12/96 -0400, Dave wrote: > >>Thanks for the advice on the use of HEGO sensors. >>If you reckon that they are still not heated enough unless placed somewhere >>in the manifold what would be you're advice for a V8 application - two >>sensors, one in each manifold used simulatneously or one sensor that's >>switched between the manifolds. What sort of accuracy would I be likely to >>expect if I was to place the sensor in the collector? > >I have two mounted in header collectors on a V8. They seem to work OK, but >are a little slow to warm up. They are the unheated type, however, as soon >as these wear out I'll replace them with heated ones. BTW, I'm using a dual >10 LED bargraph display, mounted in a 2" gage housing in the dash. Simple, >effective, and easy to read while driving, unlike the LCD multimeter... > > > > >regards >dn >dnorquay@xxx.com You have a v-8, with 2 ego's on it, and can read 2 bar graphs in a 2" guage while driving? How? I have to have somebody else sitting in the passenger seat because when I floor it it's all I can do to keep the thing on the road and shift, no time for dash observations.(or guts enough to take eyes off road either) And this is in a vw rabbit.(alright, I cheated 125 of those horses were nitrous, but the ego worked to dial in the fuel/air/nitrous mix!:-) ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 05:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recycling list members! >From: Darrell Norquay >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 96 19:06 PDT >Subject: Re: hego > >At 12:18 PM 8/12/96 -0400, Ed wrote: > >>turbine. I've owned two cars like this(Chrysler 2.2 and Mitsu 2.0), and >>they worked fine. Of course, BOTH of them had O2 sensor recalls that > >>Ed Hernandez >>Ford Motor Company > >What's this? A Ford engineer driving Chryslers and Mitsubishi's?!?! I bet >you raised a few eyebrows in the parking lot in the morning... Jeez, don't >they give you a discount or something over there? Heck, I figured the city of Dearborn had a noise ordinance that wouldn't allow all the guys to start their Fords at the end of the shift at the same time because of all of the steering pump noise!:-) >Seriously, Ed, nice to have you back. Yeah! I'll second that! We miss your sagely advice and words >of wisdom. Drop by a little more often... Well, yeah, but his humor is more fun!:-> >regards >dn >dnorquay@xxx.com > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #229 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > ------------------------------ From: "Barry Bridgman" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 14:31:15 EST Subject: Renix EFI on Renault 21 Turbo Hi There I am new to this list and I was wondering if anyone had any information on the engine management system used on the Renault 21 turbo. Any information would be gratefully received. Bye For now Barryb ------------------------------ From: Jens Knickmeyer Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:43:06 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: Throttle switch wrote: > > About your switch, > Most throttle switched are more to tell the computer that you are at > idle so as you go on the gas its clicks off. On most Road engines the > accelaration stuff is controlled my Manifold pressure or Airflow meter. Doug, thanks for your answer. Exactly the method you describe above made me wonder if my switch setup was correct (switch opens before the throttle plate opens). It turns out that this _is_ correct. Yes, the engine goes open loop as soon as the switch clicks. And a slight rpm drop is normal. But NOT such a mess my car made. However, the problem is not completely solved but not so bad as it was. A VW mechanic gave me the advice to burn the engine free, and I did it. Drove to my hometown at 23.30pm when the Autobahn is not so full (do not believe what you hear about the 250km/h rides on German autobahns, that's possible only at 3am). This helped a lot. So I think there was carbon on the valves or maybe even in the combustion chamber. My car has a knock sensor, so maybe there was some light knock, ignition timing was moved towards TDC and the engine run badly when cold. Again, thanks for your answer. Greetings, Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) - ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroprozessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig near Wolfsburg knick@xxx.de - ------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Jens Knickmeyer Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 15:51:23 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: Re: Throttle switch wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Jens Knickmeyer wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:39:33 +0200 (MET DST) > > From: Jens Knickmeyer > > To: EFI Mailing List > > Subject: Throttle switch > > > > Hi all! > > > > In my Polo-G40, I found the idle throttle switch to open > > _before_ the throttle plate moved. When I had a friend of > > mine pressing down the accellerator pedal, I heared the > > click of the switch and shortly after that, the throttle > > started to open. I always thought it should be the other way > > round: the throttle opens a bit and then the switch opens > > its contacts? > > > > The reason for my question is a problem during warm-up. > > The engine starts perfectly, runs good during post-start > > enrichment, but then suddenly acts a bit reluctantly. > > When I press down the accellerator pedal only a little > > bit, the engine revs 100rpm below its normal idle rpm. > > Accelleration from idle rpms lets the engine tend to stall. > > These effects vanish when the engine is warmed up. > > > > I wonder if the idle switch is adjusted correctly. The > > VW service men said yes, but it would not be the first > > time they are wrong, so I thought I'd better ask the > > list members... > > > > Any help is apprciated, thanks in advance. > > > > Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Jens Knickmeyer > > Technische Universitaet Braunschweig > > Mikroprozessorlabor > > 38106 Braunschweig near Wolfsburg > > knick@xxx.de > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > Hi Jens- > > I have only minimal experience with the g-lader motors. Just a few US- > spec G60 corrados. Only when cold? It could be carbon build up on the > back of the inlet valves like the old VW-audi problem in the 1970's. You > could try adjusting the base idle with the 7mm brass scew in the throttle > body (don't do it with the throttle stop). If this car has digifant, then > I don't have much help to offer other than this. If it has CIS-E then you > may even be able to fix it! > > Good luck, > > Seth Allen > Western Washington Unversity (Vehicle Design) Seth, thanks for your answer. Seems you are right about the carbon. A VW mechanic told me the same, and so I burned my engine free by driving not under 180km/h. I did this at 11.30 pm when the Autobahn was not so full any more. Helped a lot - the car runs a lot better now, no stall on accelleration any longer. Think I will repeat such a "burn free" a few times. Yes, my car has digifant. I am reverse engineering the ECU to find out how the diagnostic interface works. Yuo know, the DF has an OBD and can transmit the fault codes to the VAG1551. Also, you can do such nice things as switching off the lambda and idle control loop to allow a basic setup of mixture and ignition timing. But that's another story... Thanks again for your advice! Have fun, Jens ('92 VW Polo-G40) - ------------------------------------ Jens Knickmeyer Technische Universitaet Braunschweig Mikroprozessorlabor 38106 Braunschweig near Wolfsburg knick@xxx.de - ------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:06:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Todd Knighton Sorry for the wide distribution - I lost Todd Knighton's email address. Todd, can you send me the address of Promotive Engineering's website? Thanks, - -Jody ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:18:13 -0400 Subject: Re: Improving a rover OK, in the UK Rover only produced two models of the SD1 with fuel injection - one was called the Vitesse and the other Vanden Plas EFI. All other models had carburettors. I'm not sure what they were called in the US but I know it was exported there. Regards, Dave. ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 12:44:00 PDT Subject: Re: EGO sensors <<< >Put one(HEGO) after a turbo or at the collector of a header > and you will likely have problems at idle and low rpm light load >running. Anyone else seen factory setups with the HEGOs upstream of the turbine? - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com >>> The turbo Buicks have the EGO sensor just before the turbine. The stock ('86-'87) sensor is unheated and seems to work OK; interesting that when Hooker headers are installed the sensor begins to "code", even though it is in about the same location. Usual practice w/ the headers (which seem to hurt performance, BTW) is to use a heated replacement sensor. These can be had for about $25 from the General these days. Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Robert Van Zant Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:12:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Importing a rover > Because rover got that engine from oldsmobile, and the olds ran better with > a carb. I was told that these are descendants of the 215 ci aluminum block Olds/Buick V8, now up to 4 liter, still aluminum. Was also told that they're quite plentiful (and fairly cheap) in the UK. They are neither here in the US, so was wondering how difficult importing a few would be. Anyone know what they might sell for in the junk yards in England, and/or what kind of hassles are involved in shipping them here? Maybe I'll just take a vacation, and bring one home in several suitcases. thanks, bob ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Tue, 13 Aug 96 21:29 PDT Subject: Re: HEGO At 05:26 AM 8/13/96 -0700, talltom wrote: >You have a v-8, with 2 ego's on it, and can read 2 bar graphs in a 2" guage >while driving? How? I have to have somebody else sitting in the passenger seat >because when I floor it it's all I can do to keep the thing on the road and >shift, no time for dash observations.(or guts enough to take eyes off road >either) And this is in a vw rabbit.(alright, I cheated 125 of those horses were >nitrous, but the ego worked to dial in the fuel/air/nitrous mix!:-) Damn right! That's why bargraphs are so great, they can be read intuitively without directly looking at them. LED's are also easy to see because they are their own light source, as opposed to LCD's and analog gages which need an external light source. I have 10 LED's in each bar, mounted vertically side by side. The top 4 (.6V-1.0V) are red, the middle 2 (.4V,.5V) are amber, and the bottom 4 are green (0V-.3V). All you have to do is be able to see it out of the corner of your eye. Keep it in the amber, and you're there. It's also easy to spot any differences between cylinder banks (I detected a fouled plug this way, one bank was always running richer than the other...) Besides, you shouldn't be dinking around somewhere where you have to watch for traffic anyway ;] regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #230 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".