DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 15 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 231 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #230 HEGO and leaded petrol DIY Electronic Ignition Mailing List. Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #230 RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) 2S marine engines re: Cylinder Pressure Measurement re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer RE: Throttle Bodies - Cost Re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) Setting Mixture with Nitrous See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: talltom Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 03:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #230 > >From: Robert Van Zant >Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:12:49 -0500 (CDT) >Subject: Importing a rover > >> Because rover got that engine from oldsmobile, and the olds ran better with >> a carb. > > I was told that these are descendants of the 215 ci aluminum block >Olds/Buick V8, now up to 4 liter, still aluminum. Was also told that >they're quite plentiful (and fairly cheap) in the UK. They are neither >here in the US, so was wondering how difficult importing a few would be. >Anyone know what they might sell for in the junk yards in England, >and/or what kind of hassles are involved in shipping them here? Maybe >I'll just take a vacation, and bring one home in several suitcases. > >thanks, >bob Well I don't know what they sell for in england, but I could have bought one in a local wrecking yard for $600, and it came with a triumph tr-7 that ran, drove and was licensed for a shipping crate. My brother in law sold three of them for $100. What makes you think there not available here? Better yet how much ya give me for one and how long do I have to find it? ------------------------------ From: "Barry Bridgman" Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 09:58:01 EST Subject: HEGO and leaded petrol Hi There I was wondering if you guy's could set me straight on a few things concerning HEGO's as I want to use one to monitor the mixture on my Renault 21 Turbo, but it only runs on leaded petrol. 1. Am I correct in assuming this is a lambda sensor. 2. Will they work with leaded petrol. Thanks in advance for any help BarryB barry_bridgman@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: George Lerm Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 16:48:53 +0200 Subject: DIY Electronic Ignition Mailing List. Hi Excellent mailing list!!!!!!! Could anyone point me in the right direction(new to this NET thing). I am searching for a mailing list about Electronic Ignition Systems/Design for information purposes. I want to explore the options of employing this type of system in my VW Beetle. Help will grately be appreciated in this matter. Thanx - -- George Lerm E-Mail: glerm@xxx.com Visit http://mickey.iafrica.com/~glerm ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:29:48 -0600 (EDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #230 > >From: Robert Van Zant > >Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:12:49 -0500 (CDT) > >Subject: Importing a rover > > > >> Because rover got that engine from oldsmobile, and the olds ran better with > >> a carb. > > > > I was told that these are descendants of the 215 ci aluminum block > >Olds/Buick V8, now up to 4 liter, still aluminum. Was also told that > >they're quite plentiful (and fairly cheap) in the UK. They are neither > >here in the US, so was wondering how difficult importing a few would be. > >Anyone know what they might sell for in the junk yards in England, > >and/or what kind of hassles are involved in shipping them here? Maybe > >I'll just take a vacation, and bring one home in several suitcases. > > > >thanks, > >bob > 215 engines are easy to find. I just sold 3, including a very nice fuel injection manifold I made myself from a OLDS 4bbl manifold. The worlds best supplier of Buick/Olds 215 parts is Dan LaGrou of D&D Fabrications in Mich, Phone #- 810-798-2491. He has any engine related parts including rare Jetfire models. Frank Parker ------------------------------ From: Peter Shoebridge Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:04:17 -0600 Subject: RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) - ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB89C7.F52FD330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rover V8 engines are plentiful in the UK. The fuel injected ones however = command a premuim price but the carb version can be bought for rebuild = anything between 100-300 bucks. Expect to pay 1000 bucks and up for one = rebuilt and ready to run. As for importing into the US, the EPA has something to say about this. = However if you strip the engine and import in pieces that seems to = satify them (I think!!). 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For the P-V (Pressure/Volume) measurements a piezo trans- ducer was mounted in the combustion chamber, I suspect in the head somewhere. I have an aircooled motorcycle, that I could bore a hole in the head, without worry of leaks. Pressure info would be as good, or better than a dyno, to tune and check mods to an EFI, as well as the motor, wouldn't it? Are the transducers prohibitively expense, short lived, weird calibration. What are the problems in dealing with these, or are like lambda sensors, for us DIY'ers? Jerry Wills I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) ------------------------------ From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 14:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Peter Shoebridge wrote: > As for importing into the US, the EPA has something to say about this. = > However if you strip the engine and import in pieces that seems to = > satify them (I think!!). Correct. Import it in pieces and declare it as "spare parts" for customs. Only parts with VIN numbers are a problem. I've read of several 2-stroke motorcycles being imported into the USA this way (FYI, all new two strokes are illegal in the US because of emissions laws). However, I've never done it, so this is probably worth what you paid for it. :-) Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 15:58:15 CDT Subject: re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer Jerry Wills Wrote: | | I was rereading SAE 820749, a valve events paper. | For the P-V (Pressure/Volume) measurements a piezo trans- | ducer was mounted in the combustion chamber, I suspect in the | head somewhere. I have an aircooled motorcycle, that I could | bore a hole in the head, without worry of leaks. | | Pressure info would be as good, or better than a dyno, to tune | and check mods to an EFI, as well as the motor, wouldn't it? I think so. Instead of listening for knock, or having a static ignition advance table, it seems like the best method of controlling ignition timing would be to measure cylinder pressure and maximize the area under the pressure-volume curve. John DeArmond, beloved former moderator of the hotrod list, once predicted that measuring cylinder pressure would be the next "great leap" in engine management. | | Are the transducers prohibitively expense, short lived, weird | calibration. What are the problems in dealing with these, or | are like lambda sensors, for us DIY'ers? The only ones I've seen are from Kistler. They have pressure sensors built into a spark plug, and ones the mount right in the head. I don't know how much they cost, but I think they are very expensive. I'm sure someone else here knows about them... | | Jerry Wills | I'll have enough POWER when I can spin the tires at the end of the straight! | 89 FJ DERSLYR, DoD#500 KotF(Flag) Mark Donahue, about 917's | USC/Information Sciences Institute (USC/ISI) SoCal (310) 822-1511 x 236 | 90's cowboys, ride iron horses, and punch Deer!!! | You done violated Physics, BOY! Assume the position..... (Rider 5/92) | Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 17:23:31 -0500 Subject: RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) At 02:04 PM 8/14/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Peter Shoebridge wrote: > >> As for importing into the US, the EPA has something to say about this. = >> However if you strip the engine and import in pieces that seems to = >> satify them (I think!!). > >Correct. Import it in pieces and declare it as "spare parts" for >customs. Only parts with VIN numbers are a problem. I've read of >several 2-stroke motorcycles being imported into the USA this way (FYI, >all new two strokes are illegal in the US because of emissions laws). > >However, I've never done it, so this is probably worth what you paid for >it. :-) > >Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu >Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu > ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, >Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member > 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 > What about two stroke boat engines gentlemen? gmd ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:05:04 est Subject: 2S marine engines >What about two stroke boat engines gentlemen? their day of reckoning is coming (has come?) Andrew Rabbitt Orbital Engine Company PERTH, Australia ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:59:50 est Subject: re: Cylinder Pressure Measurement >piezo transducer was mounted in the combustion chamber, I suspect in >the head somewhere. I have an aircooled motorcycle, that I could >bore a hole in the head, without worry of leaks. Yup! this is the normal location, although Kistler (who make these things) also supply a version installed in the spark-plug) >Pressure info would be as good, or better than a dyno, to tune >and check mods to an EFI, as well as the motor, wouldn't it? Sure, but you have to load the engine somehow, and control it >Are the transducers prohibitively expense, short lived, weird >calibration. What are the problems in dealing with these, or >are like lambda sensors, for us DIY'ers? They are expensive (usually upwards of $A2000 each I think) and require a charge amplifier to convert the signal to a voltage. They are generally difficult and time consuming to calibrate and maintain and you need to sample them at least on a 360_CA basis to get meaningful data. Calculations performed using these sensors in the test envrionment include, IMEP, Coefficient of Variance (Combustion stability), burn rate, pressure rise rate, indicated torque and probably lots else, however you also need to know your TDC accurately to do this. I think that they are used in World Sports Car (ie Le Mans) class racing in real time, and some of the Japanese manufacturers (at least) have been attempting to develop production versions of the same thing. (there are some papers on this out there somewhere) ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 18:41 PDT Subject: re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer At 03:58 PM 8/14/96 CDT, Steve Ravet wrote in reply to Jerry Wills: >| Are the transducers prohibitively expense, short lived, weird >| calibration. What are the problems in dealing with these, or >| are like lambda sensors, for us DIY'ers? > >The only ones I've seen are from Kistler. They have pressure sensors built >into a spark plug, and ones the mount right in the head. I don't know how >much they cost, but I think they are very expensive. I'm sure someone else >here knows about them... There is another company called PCB Electronics, and also Entran (I think). Yes, they are expensive ($500), and you have to have fairly complicated electronics package behind them. Be aware that they are piezoelectric, and are strictly dynamic pressure sensors. You cannot measure static pressures with them, which should not be a problem in this application. I've used these before in a flame arrestor test facility. We'd fill a 30 meter long 12" diameter pipeline with a stoichiometric mixture of propane and air and set it off, and test to see if the flame arrestor stopped the blast. It usually did... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Frank_Mallory@xxx.com (Frank Mallory) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 16:49:40 -0400 Subject: RE: Throttle Bodies - Cost d> * From: "Orin Harding" d>Paul, I don't know about the UK but there is a company in California d>by the d>name of TWM that makes DCOE, IDF, etc. style throttle bodies. Cost d>for a twin d>40mm IDF style is about US$300. I don't have the price sheets with me d>now d>(I'm in England at this time) but if you want I'll e-mail you when I d>get home d>next week with the prices. Quality is very good and they are a nice d>company d>to deal with. Orin Are these complete units, or adapter kits for existing Webers? Please either post this info, or e-mail a copy to me. TIA ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:15:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: pressure measurements with piezoelectric transducer > I've used these before in a flame arrestor test facility. We'd fill a 30 > meter long 12" diameter pipeline with a stoichiometric mixture of propane > and air and set it off, and test to see if the flame arrestor stopped the > blast. It usually did... Wow, I bet that made a bang just right for 4am ;-) What's the flame arrestor? I've heard that a fine mesh will stop a flame front (specifically, a friend had a 13B turbo rotary on propane, but the gas mixer was before the turbo. It wrecked the engine when 15PSI of compressed mixture ignited (& it bent the pipe from the turbo to the manifold.. I'm wondering if some mesh will stop this). Cheers, Craig. ------------------------------ From: John Dammeyer Date: Wed, 14 Aug 96 22:16 PDT Subject: RE: Importing a rover (engine!!) At 05:23 PM 14/08/1996 -0500, you wrote: >At 02:04 PM 8/14/96 -0400, you wrote: snip >>customs. Only parts with VIN numbers are a problem. I've read of >>several 2-stroke motorcycles being imported into the USA this way (FYI, >>all new two strokes are illegal in the US because of emissions laws). >> >What about two stroke boat engines gentlemen? >gmd > And Chainsaws and portable Weedwackers? john Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: David Crocombe Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:43:49 +1000 Subject: Setting Mixture with Nitrous I wish to know how we can measure the mixture lean/rich on a Drag racing car that runs leaded petrol and Nitrous Oxide. What I've heard so far is that the oxygen sensors get ruined by the lead in leaded petrol; that maximum power (objective) is at a mixture of about 18:1 I think rather than the 14.7:1 for least emmissions. All sensors I've heard mentioned work around this 14.7 mark. Are there sensors for those of us who require maximum power regardless of emissions? We (my brother is the Drag racer & I am the Electronics person) are interested in better tuning without a dyno access and data logging. At this stage EFI is not allowed in his racing so I figure I'll just measure everything but not control anything. Any information or ideas would be most welcome. Regards, David Crocombe. Sydney, Australia. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #231 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".