DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, 18 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 234 In this issue: Spark plugs as sensors(thinking out loud) Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. *&**&^%$&^ Maths! re: Rover engines Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. Re: My DIY EFI Re: CD Ignition Re: My DIY EFI Re: Electric vehicle Re: My DIY EFI Re: CD Ignition Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: talltom Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 04:48:07 -0700 Subject: Spark plugs as sensors(thinking out loud) The way I understand this is exactly what the SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBBBBB(booHoo) story is from 93 up with their trionic system, which is largely software configured. The theory is that they either measure resistence at some point during the compression stroke or spark and log the voltage required and use the values derived to compute charge density and temperature and adjust timing on a per cylinder basis. These things were turboed too. Really don't know much as they are pretty closed mouth about whatever they've done. ------------------------------ From: rickydik@xxx.com (RD Rick) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 06:50:28 -0700 Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. >> Dave asked: >> >What really is involved in putting together a dynamometer - either >> chassis or>engine?>> > >> >Is there a prescribed method as I'd be interested in putting together>> >somesort of engine dynamometer. I oversimply replied: >> If the engine is in a car, all you need is a stopwatch, a tach, a tape>> recorder, and a hill. and Dave Zug retorted: >AND A BUDDY who knows the formula! (and so you can concentrate on >following the yellow lines) >call this the anticipated request for the conversion formula and >procedure, again. (look ma, i contributed!) Hi Gang: I'm brand new to the group, in case you hadn't noticed, and probably jumped into the middle of a thread, sorry. I didn't quote my reference the first time, because it was in the upstairs bathroom. It's there for OJT, On the John Training. I am reading "The Doctors Guide to Optimizing Your Ignition" by "Dr." Christopher Jacobs, PhD, EE, of Jacobs Ignitions, product of Jacobs Electronics, Inc.; Jacobs Technical Publishing, Jacobs, TX. Actually Jacobs Tech Pub is in Midland. I am wary of any PhD from USC, because I know one who is in the chemical industry. That guy's PhD from USC is in child psychology, obtained with a $40K donation. Dr. Jacob's method of explaining inductance is okay, but not like how it was taught back in the fifties when both he and I were learning basics. He also makes assumptions that may be oversimplification, like 0.1" is the critical size flame for combustion. All the above notwithstanding, he has a full chapter "Free Dynamometer, Accurate to 2%." It would be tough to get 2% accuracy with his method, but it is easy to automate what he is recommending to get very good accuracy. I had already started down a similar road by recording the tach pulses on my tape deck. Hope you can find the book. Mine was a gift, and well worth the price. RD '76 Porsche 914 2.0 stock commuter with excellent Djet EFI '73 Porsche 914 2.1 hiperf commuter with same Djet, not so well. '81 VW Vangon with 2.0 Ljet EFI, never a problem, except bad fuel rusting the FP regulator shut. This is probable cause of lots of car fires in Calif now I suspect. '86 Merc Sable, my EFI standard of excellence. ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 16:50:02 +-200 Subject: *&**&^%$&^ Maths! OK guys.. getting back to the nitty gritty here: I got a father with flare for mech eng. He has built some very nice, and = some serious cars. I'm nearly at the point of adding the I/O bits to the = uP core system, and I realy need to know what the formula for working = out Ignition times, and Injection pulse widths, based on any data = needed. What I'm after is the *BEST* control algo' that anybody knows = of, regardless of what sensors are needed (Either I'll implement them, = or just cut them out for now :-)). I've got a GOOD tame programmer, who = works for beer, so complexity no problem (I can even implement some = stuff in hardware, timers and such) I just dont care, all I want is the = MATH! Arrrrrggggghhhh. There I've said it! I've been reding bl**dy books = for 4 whole years now, and still cant decide for myself!=20 Please help before I give up, and go back to simple amps and curtain = closers, go mad, drink my self silly, and die dreaming of 11000 RPM and = 0-60 times in the low 4s. Sax. When all is said and done, RTFM. When the reply comes "WFM?", SHOUT = LOUD, AND ASK! TTFN! ------------------------------ From: "Brian P. Davies" <75223.2760@xxx.COM> Date: 17 Aug 96 12:26:24 EDT Subject: re: Rover engines >>When they increased the displacement from 3.5 to 4.1 (?) did they >>increase the bore or stroke, or both? >>Thanks >>Martin Scarr Sorry I can't help you on that question. Does anyone else know the answer? ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:48:34 -0700 Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. Dave, I've built my own engine dyno's a couple of times. Utilizing a Stuska waterbrake, load cell, and gauge. The rest was basically frame work. With electronics it would probably be easier with strain gauges and stuff vs load cells. But I know that now. Chassis dyno's are a bit more difficult just because of the size involved, though you don't need any ancillaries for it, just drive the car on. For any kind of real horsepower though you need huge rollers. And the more horsepower, the more losses through tires and frictional losses you'll be recording. Thus the more inaccurate. I've always preferred engine dyno's to chassis stuff. Chassis dyno's have their place though. If I can help? Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering DJohn77284@xxx.com wrote: > > What really is involved in putting together a dynamometer - either chassis or > engine? > > Is there a prescribed method as I'd be interested in putting together > somesort of engine dynamometer. > > Regards, > > Dave. ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:56:41 -0700 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------3EB5232DE18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, Attached is the binary code for a Porsche 911. Disassemble it and take a look. It's got all the stuff you need right there. Just get the I/O ports right and you could have working code. It uses and Air Flow meter, though that's easily changed to Throttle position, pressure sensing, or hot wire. Whatever. The basic code works. You might want to get rid of the idle comp. and O2 sensor stuff if you're going TPS. Schematics aren't available from Bosch on any of this stuff. I've reverse engineered all the a/d channels and some of the output ports. The problem is most of the chips are proprietary and have no designation what so ever other that some Bosch number that's meaning less other than date. I personally think some of the levels of sophistication that's going into some of these DIY EFI's are a bit ridiculous. I've done a lot of work with some antiquated units as well as very sophisticated units and when it comes down to raw horsepower, there wasn't much difference to speak about. Maybe CAN bus stuff might be good for a electronic dash board, but personally I can't read flickering digits at 200+ Mph, give me analog any day. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering. DJohn77284@xxx.com wrote: > > Todd, you say that Bosch used 8051s or derrivatives. > > I would be interested in seeing anything really - coding, schematics, etc. > Can you point me in the right direction so I can get a peak at these? > > The reason that I'm going for an 80c32 is that I've already got a few. I've > also been looking at the Phillips range and the one's with IIC and CAN BUS > look interesting. 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ignitions might start better under low voltage circumstances, but, the short spark length is not as good as could be expected. I have seen a couple of articles that say since the duration of time of the CDI's spark is so short, it is VERY prone to preignition due to the mixture not being totally ignited, and other sorts of problems. Now MSD's don't have that problem, as they will file several times, up to a certin RPM. I have use the MSD-6a on a couple of cars, and it is a very good addition. Most of the Pep-boy specials are not. Also many of today's cars with computerized ignitions, use really low impeadance coils, (like the GM dual) and I will create a LARGE spark even with really low voltage, with the dwell controled by some uP or ignition controller. I think the GM coils will draw 26 amps at 12v if not controled by some form of current limiting. Just some ramblings... Sandy ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:28:35 -0600 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI At 09:56 8/17/96 -0700, Messr. Knighton wrote: > I personally think some of the levels of sophistication that's going >into some of these DIY EFI's are a bit ridiculous. I have to agree with Todd here .. you really have to decide whether you want a running car .. or an academic exercise ... You can run just about ANY SI engine on the PLANET with 6 channels of ADC and NONE of that CAN/OBD-II mess .. Here's a uC I suggest all you 805x'ers look at .. Phillips 87C576 .. comes in 44pin LCC .. 6 channels of 10bitADC, Timer array and 8k of on chip EPROM .. IF YOU CANT MAKE IT RUN IN 8K of ASSEMBLER then YOU CANT MAKE IT RUN!!! (Yes, I know .. you ALL wanna program in C++ ... ;) If anyone needs a little help with the file Todd put out, just let me know... The early 911's are suspiciously close to the early BMW M3 and 535i ... >I've done a lot of work with some antiquated units as well as very >sophisticated units and when it comes down to raw horsepower, >there wasn't much difference to speak about. Again .. right on the MONEY .. some of the most POWERFUL cars on the planet BMW M3, Porsche 951, etc etc (OK, I'm talking factory, not those MONSTER 911's that Todd builds!) all run on very SIMPLE 8051 based controllers from Bosch.. They use the teeth on the starter ring gear for position, and are reasonably accurate in spark and fueling .. spark generally down to +/- 1.5 degrees .. They even have (secret, generally unknown) capabilities to tie into a second small ECU for Boost, Knock, and even NITROUS control .. :) Jim ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:13:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Electric vehicle - -> No, No, No, you're not getting it. We're trying to eliminate all the - -> possible losses that electric vehicles incur, thus more efficient, - -> thus less battery power required. That's why the motors in the wheel - -> hubs. Dr. Porsche's first production design, long before he started his car company, was a truck for some company whose name escapes me for the moment... it used electric motors in the hubs. Stayed in production for quite a while as I recall. Unfortunately, generators and motors are not efficient enough to make a hybrid's aggregate efficiency much better than a standard IC engine/trans/diff arrangement. With a constant speed turbine or Diesel you could probably break even, but why go through all that weight and complexity when you could just use a Rankine cycle powerplant and expanders where needed? (steam, that is...) ------------------------------ From: John Dammeyer Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 16:45 PDT Subject: Re: My DIY EFI At 09:56 AM 17/08/1996 -0700, you wrote: >Dave, [SNIP] > I personally think some of the levels of sophistication that's going >into some of these DIY EFI's are a bit ridiculous. I've done a lot of >work with some antiquated units as well as very sophisticated units and >when it comes down to raw horsepower, there wasn't much difference to >speak about. Maybe CAN bus stuff might be good for a electronic dash >board, but personally I can't read flickering digits at 200+ Mph, give >me analog any day. > >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering. CAN bus here has nothing to do with how you output the information. Just a handy way to report what is going on inside the system and communicating that information to other parts of the car. Look at it from this perspective. You need some of the engine parameters at the dashboard for the instruments; digital, analogue or mindlink. The drivers door just needs to attach to this bus and tell each of the outher windows to go up/down or doors and trunk to lock/unlock as opposed to running the heavier wires and switches all over the place. Each door just has the +12 and CAN bus. The grief my '87 Jeep Cherokee is giving me at this point because somewhere I have a defective set of wires and ergo no power doorlocks makes a supporter of less wires, just heavy +12 Volt and signals. Down side is definitely more technical knowledge and equipment needed for trouble shooting but the level of trouble information available at one location, (the mechanics laptop sitting in the passenger seat), as the vehicle goes around a left hand corner at 13 MPH and stalls; not at 12 MPH and not at 14 and never at the dealers. As for antiquated verses modern. I quite agree, for general tooling around town where the last 1.3458213 HP isn't that important even the old mechanical system in my '76 SAAB was awesome but I did have to change points periodically. John. Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: John Dammeyer Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 16:45 PDT Subject: Re: CD Ignition At 10:48 AM 17/08/1996 -0700, you wrote: >The CD ignitions might start better under low voltage circumstances, but, >the short spark length is not as good as could be expected. I have seen a >couple of articles that say since the duration of time of the CDI's spark is >so short, it is VERY prone to preignition due to the mixture not being >totally ignited, and other sorts of problems. I Suspect most of that would be due to the match between the coil and the capacitor used etc. Aren't we really discussing the amount of energy stored in the coil and how quickly that energy is released when the current is stopped by the opening of the points. As I recall the original CD Ignition had several things going for it: Higher energy spark and minimal breaker point damage from excess arcing. Once I had the CD ignition I never replaced the points again in 60K plus miles in addition to good cold weather starting. Recall too, that some coils require a ballast resistor to limit total current. This is similar to the LR method of Stepper Motor control verses Chopped. Simple electrical theory states that once a voltage is placed accros a coil it takes a certain time until the current reaches maximum V/R where R is the DC resistance of the coil. Stepper Motors have this same problem. By the time the current is up to the point where maximum torque is reached the motor is already stpping to the next position so higher stepping speed means less torque. One solution is to increase the voltage so the 'pressure' to push those pesky electrons through the windings is higher and thus maximum current is reached more quickly. To limit the current a DC resistance is placed in series with the coil so that under steady state conditions the coil doesn't burn out (LR). The other technique is to use a very high voltage and electronically limit the current (Chopped). Automotive coils aren't really a lot different other than the fact that they are a transformer. The ballast resistor prevents coil burnout as now the winding isn't a twelve volt winding anymore but perhaps a 3 volt coil. Current builds up more quickly to maximum and when the points open, zap, (EE term coined by students in EE labs throwing charged caps at each other). Perhaps some experiments with coils and CDI used coils with the ballast resistor still installed. So, as far as spark duration goes, if the spark is constructed by the primary field collapsing, inducing a voltage in the secondary high enough to break over the spark plug gap, that spark will stay there until the voltage is too low to sustain the spark. I suspect that the CD ignition still produces the spark as the points open or else timing would be all out of wack but it's unlikely that at that point there is current flowing through the coil so the spark is created by the inrush from the higher voltage capacitor; an opposite polarity spark? Don't know. Haven't a schematic handy ergo the original reason for my post. >Now MSD's don't have that >problem, as they will fire several times, up to a certin RPM. My ramblings John. Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:06:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer. - -> I've built my own engine dyno's a couple of times. Utilizing a - -> Stuska waterbrake, load cell, and gauge. The rest was basically - -> frame work. How much was the Stuska brake? SuperFlow wants $10K for the bare brake, which was slightly more than I wanted to pay... ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #234 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".