DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, 21 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 238 In this issue: What's a Telma. Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) Re: EGO sensors [none] [none] [none] [none] [none] '97 Corvette engine, DIS Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #236 Re: Truck parts Dynamometer.--telma Flaming material Re: '97 Corvette engine, DIS EGO Sensors and linearity Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) Bosch Info Re: ZEV / REV Re: Ford EEC-IV help Re: EGO Sensors and linearity Re: Bosch Info and the Patent Office Re: My DIY EFI Re: EGO Sensors and linearity Re: '97 Corvette engine, DIS Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) Re: Truck parts Dynamometer.--telma 1986 Honda Prelude fuel injection proble Re: EGO Sensors and linearity Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #236 Re: My DIY EFI Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) Re: 1986 Honda Prelude fuel injection proble Re: Flaming material My CIY EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: einarp@xxx.no (einarp) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 09:33:35 CET Subject: What's a Telma. >Is anybody in the U.S. on this list familiar with a "Telma"? This sounds >like just the ticket! It's a recirculating current brake. Popular on large vehicles in areas with many hills, as there is no parts that wear. They are also very nice on slippery roads because their action is very smooth. There may be other brands, but they tend to be called Telma by the user anyway. If you take an old car dynamo, short it's output terminals and bring out the field terminals to an adjustable current source, you have the "Telma" principle in a device useable for a Briggs & Stratton. The current consumption to brake effect ratio is low, as current is only used to build the magnetic field. The Telma is of course optimized for use as a brake. Regards Einar - -- einarp@xxx.no ( Maserati Biturbo Spyder ) ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 08:56:17 -0400 Subject: Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) > >Let's just cut all the crap about a ZEV. [snip] > > You're right! Just transfers the problem elsewhere. [snip] > > Realistically a different power source is required, like fuel cells using > hydrogen and oxygen. [snip] Or, more long term, a major change in attitudes about energy use in North America. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:50:38 -0500 Subject: Re: EGO sensors >>with the flat part occuring at stoich with about .45 volts output. Above > >Ah, Tom, the flat part occurs at each end of the curve. The central portion >around .4-.5V is almost vertical. > ** depends on which way you turn the graph !! >I've been wondering lately how much sweat it would be to apply some >linearization to the curve, in order to get a more useful output. The curve >is essentially a stretched "S" shape, the math for this should be a piece of >cake (for someone so inclined). OK, so you may not get a perfectly linear >curve, but you should be able to get something resembling a straight line >with way wider a/f range than it now has. Any comments? > > >regards >dn >dnorquay@xxx.com What I said was that, off stoich, the output was (as I read the SAE papers) seriously affected by temperature, and that, without knowing the temp, one could not really get an accurate A/F reading. Also, EPA seems to think that the EGO does not even read oxy until temps in excess of 800 degrees are reached. But, you are asking what I've been trying to find out for quite some time: specifically, how useful, practically, is the EGO for rich/lean settings (and this would necessitate 'straightening' the curve). Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:41:11 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:39:16 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:38:00 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:36:50 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (Tom Cloud) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:46:40 -0500 Subject: [none] ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:45:00 +0000 Subject: '97 Corvette engine, DIS - -> Are the rumors true, Direct Ignition on the '97 Corvette 5.7l LT1? - -> Are there any technical tidbits available? Feed me info ...please! The new LS-1 engine uses eight individual coils mounted on the valve covers, with short plug wires going down to the plugs. I haven't seen anything about why they went to eight coils instead of four dual coils. I know the Ford 4.6 uses different spark plugs for each side of a dual coil, but most engines don't bother. The LS-1 is a completely new Chevrolet V8 engine with no parts interchanging with the old small block, or the LT5 for that matter. 3.9x3.6 bore/stroke, four bolt heads, evenly-spaced ports, gerotor oil pump driven off the front of the crank, thrust main now on center bearing, etc. ------------------------------ From: ptimmerm@xxx.GOV Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:11:45 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #236 John D wrote: >Realisticaly a different power source is required, like fuel cells using >hydrogen and oxygen. As i understand it in Vancouver there is already a >pilot project under way that uses fuel cells in a few buses. There are >still emissions but this time the hydrogen combines with the oxygen to >produce water. Now to make the hydrogen we're back to using remote >electricity for separating water into it's constituant elements. Those buses you are talking about are methanol powered, not hydrogen oxygen. They are made by Ballard in BC. There is a small fleet of them running around Georgetown in DC. The problem with them is the cost complexity and heat involved in the reforming process. This is a onboard cracking of methanol down to hydrogen. The direct oxidation methanol fuel cell solves that problem. It runs at much lower temperatures and is much simpler. It is coming and sooner than you think. Wanna learn more? Check out my web site: http://mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov/section342.html Look for the fuel cell page. paul t- jet propulsion labs ------------------------------ From: Kalle Pihlajasaari Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:55:14 +0200 (sat) Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer.--telma Hi, > >>Other stupid ideas...... > >>Build a back yard dyno out of a truck axle..... > > > >Not so stupid... Know what a Telma is? > >It's an electromagnetic brake system used on trucks & buses. > >They are normally mounted inline with the propeller shaft. > >If you've noticed the bus driver activate braking through a > >multiposition stalk near the steering wheel, that's the control stick. > > > >They should be fairly easy to find at appropriate breakers yards. > >The nice thing about them is that the braking effect is current > >controlled. So they should need only (very) high current drivers > >to be directly controlled from a micro. They are also small and > >light in proportion to their braking effect. > > > Is anybody in the U.S. on this list familiar with a "Telma"? This sounds > like just the ticket! I think they might be called a Thelma but the same thing at any rate. There are 2 other similar devices collectively called retarders that are retrofitted or option on trucks and busses. One of them is a Hydraulic system (similar to a locked output fluid coupling with variable fluid level) made by Voith (a german company) the third one I'm not sure of. Some Voith transmissions have the retarder built in. All of these units convert to heat and are typically plumbed into the vehicle cooling system with 2" pipes. They would certainly be a suitable load for a cottage dyno as they are pretty well self contained but you would have to work with the controls a bit. Normally very secretive about the load dump algorithms to prevent overheating and such. The Thelma units have a dubious reputation in South Africa due to the poor heat removal with big hills and warm weather, some of them I think had air only cooling. They aer not rated for continuous load but you might get bretty close unless you are trying to test a truck engine. Cheers - -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@xxx.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:23:48 +-200 Subject: Flaming material Can we get back to the EFI bit of DIY_EFI? 'Else we are going to end up = side tracked big time! Sorry for getting in there, but it did need saying. Anyway... any body out there had any ideas on plead for help about EFI = mathematics?? Or, shall I post my best efforts, and let you guys pick holes in them??? = I'm easy either way, you guys out there must have done this bit of the = design before and therefore know sumit about it! TTFN Mark ------------------------------ From: txhartma@xxx.com (Terry Hartman) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:14:03 -0500 Subject: Re: '97 Corvette engine, DIS > > From: Matt Sale > > Read the September '96 issue of Hot Rod magazine! It shows a coil-at-plug > system on the new "LS1" 350. ^^^^^^ > > > Are the rumors true, Direct Ignition on the '97 Corvette 5.7l LT1? Are there > > any technical tidbits available? Feed me info ...please! > > > > GMD > They may call it a "350" but it's actually like 346 cid.... Pretty slick looking motor too with that thermo-plastic intake. For tech info on the new LS1, I believe that Hot Rod and Chevy High Performance both have detailed articles on the new LS1 and that Corvette Fever will have it in the September or October issue. *Supposedly*, only the 'vette will get the all-aluminum block. The F-car line will get an iron version of the LS1 in like '98 and the trucks will get an iron head/block version of it in '98 as well.... later, T. - -- Terry Hartman voice:(214) 519-2920 ,,, txhartma@xxx.com (o o) DSC Communications Corp. -----------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo------------| Plano, Texas -------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:26:39 -0600 Subject: EGO Sensors and linearity If you want to linearize and EGO sensor just remember this... Condition LEAN V=F(afr) STOICH V=F(afr) RICH V=F(T,afr) Basically, you can calibrate the stoich and lean ranges based on voltage as a function of AFR alone .. but in the rich range, voltage is a function of sensor TEMP and AFR .. you need to know BOTH! Jim ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:33:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) > Realistically a different power source is required, like fuel cells using > hydrogen and oxygen. As i understand it in Vancouver there is already a > pilot project under way that uses fuel cells in a few buses. There are > still emissions but this time the hydrogen combines with the oxygen to > produce water. I believe that BMW had created a hydrogen powered vehicle that produced zero emmissions according to current testing methods. But (and a very big but it is) they nixed the project because EPA would still not accept it. It was a 4 stroke type reciprocating piston engine and required oil to lubricate it. And the sealing methods were not 100%. So we get some unburnt hydrocarbons from the oil. Tough deal huh. Now, the funny thing was that this thing blew away the efficiencies of the power plants and all kinds of dinosaur related power producers, but they still didn't like it. I think the EPA doesn't care, THEY WANT ELECTRIC. and don't care about any thing else. Even if it's 1000 times better. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering. ------------------------------ From: Brian J Hanson/OIIS/EKC Date: 20 Aug 96 13:21:23 EDT Subject: Bosch Info I've been wondering about how to get the best info possible on Bosch EFI designs since it seems to be quite difficult to get alot of detailed info on their systems. So on a whim I decided to try the on-line search of the US Patent Office. I was able to find the patents for most of Bosch's products. The on-line information they give is very basic, but I was thinking, anyone can get the detailed information of anything Bosch has patented in the US. This would provide all the detailed information about that specific system. My question is, does Bosch protect the "inner workings" of their EFI under some "trade secret" law or would all of their info be available? Has anyone tried this? It's my understanding that anything filed with the Patent Office is ava ilable to anyone, right? ------------------------------ From: David Schmidt Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 10:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: ZEV / REV Reminds me of when I was at Electric car races at Phoenix Internation Raceway a few years ago. The Solectria car blew one of its hoses on its bromine battery. Shut the race down, driver was hospitalized for several days, track evacuated as a LARGE bromine cloud started floating around. Since they were leading, they won the race. Kind of funny, save the environment but possibly kill everyone on a city block! I used to work at DEMI as a chemist doing ZEV battery development (zinc air technology). DEMI is no longer around, don't know if anyone picked up the technology. Dave >So you think it's okay to dump it in my back yard? Besides, we're not going to >die from the exhaust from internal combustion engines . . . it'll be the damn >batteries that get us. Hey, how about a good 'T-bone' accident with an electric >vehicle? Maybe one that's bromide based . . . or one of those that contain >molten sulfer? ;-) > >Jim Steck >AutoComponenti > > > ------------------------------ From: Jonathan Lloyd Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:19:34 +0100 Subject: Re: Ford EEC-IV help In message <199608191551.LAA07778@xxx.com>, Sven Pruett writes >Greetings all, > >I am new to this list and have found it to be a refreshingly >detailed forum. Though I can appreciate the dedication that many >of you have in developing an entire EFI system, my interests are >much more specialized. In short, I am interested in manufacturing >my own "piggyback" chips for Ford EEC-IV and EEC-V processors. I >am admittedly a novice when it comes to this process so please >pardon whatever academic questions I may have. Anyway, >here goes: I'm interested in just the same things. I've assumed assembler the level I will have to work at and am learning standard PC stuff on the basis that the concepts will be the same. (I am a mechanical engineer) I have not been able to contact Mr Arwood who has his WWW page showing EEC interest despite several attempts and no repy from postmaster at his provider. At the moment I have an EECIV out on the bench with lots of wires attached and have bought a cheap scope, a soldering iron and finished my first project to build a EPROM programmer and a card in my PC to run it. I,ve programmed my PC (via the eprom card) to give some sort of spark input signal at variable speed which seems to satisfy the EEC as it starts the fuel pump ( a LED on the bench ) when presented with it. Now progress has slowed down some since I havent been able to work out the CPU and hence pinout to begin some form of diagram. - -- Jonathan Lloyd john@xxx.uk ------------------------------ From: Alexander.M.Lichstein@xxx. Lichstein) Date: 20 Aug 96 14:33:36 EDT Subject: Re: EGO Sensors and linearity If you look at the math involved with understanding the output of an O2 sensor, I can't BELIEVE that you can make a claim that you will be able to determine an A/F from the output (even with Temp.) You would need to know the proportions of exhaust gas components at every temperature (including SPECIES of SOx, NOx etc.) in order to make that claim. I am tired of reading this garbage. Anyone have any science to back themselves up??? - - Z ------------------------------ From: Doug Rorem Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:33:55 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch Info and the Patent Office >> To: "'DIY EFI'" >> From: Brian J Hanson/OIIS/EKC >> >> Date: 20 Aug 96 13:21:23 EDT >> Subject: Bosch Info >> X-Importance: High >> Mime-Version: 1.0 >> Content-Type: Text/Plain >> Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Precedence: bulk >> Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >> I've been wondering about how to get the best info possible on Bosch EFI >> designs since it seems to be quite difficult to get alot of detailed info on >> their systems. So on a whim I decided to try the on-line search of the US >> Patent Office. I was able to find the patents for most of Bosch's products. >> The on-line information they give is very basic, but I was thinking, anyone can >> get the detailed information of anything Bosch has patented in the US. This >> would provide all the detailed information about that specific system. My >> question is, does Bosch protect the "inner workings" of their EFI under some >> "trade secret" law or would all of their info be available? Has anyone tried >> this? It's my understanding that anything filed with the Patent Office is ava >> ilable to anyone, right? >> The problem with looking at the patent filings is that (the ones I've seen) are just a bunch of legalese and not very informative. I believe that's done on purpose to not reveal anything, but still have a basis for a court challenge should someone manage to copy (or use) it. - -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: DJohn77284@xxx.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:38:18 -0400 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI Todd, sorry for the delay but thanks for the 911 code. One small problem though, I don't have a disassembler. Can you recommend one? Thanks again, Regards, Dave DJohn77284@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Land Shark Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:49:07 -0600 Subject: Re: EGO Sensors and linearity At 02:33 PM 8/20/96 EDT, you wrote: >If you look at the math involved with understanding the output of an O2 sensor, >I can't BELIEVE that you can make a claim that you will be able to determine an >A/F from the output (even with Temp.) You would need to know the proportions >of exhaust gas components at every temperature (including SPECIES of SOx, NOx >etc.) in order to make that claim. I am tired of reading this garbage. Anyone >have any science to back themselves up??? Yeah .. I do .. how about internal BOSCH memos and cal docs on their LSM-11 sensor .. Put the dammed electrochemical textbooks away .. this is the REAL world, not the bloody lab!! If you have a (basically) known composition fuel (gasoline, known C/H ratio) you can then linearize the sensor .. even better, the LSM-11 sensor is a carefully built sensor which is constant from sensor to sensor .. If it's good enough for Bosch Motorsport, it had BETTER be good enough for you! Jim ------------------------------ From: catapult@xxx. Gleason ) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:39:57 -0700 Subject: Re: '97 Corvette engine, DIS You wrote: > >Are the rumors true, Direct Ignition on the '97 Corvette 5.7l LT1? Are there >any technical tidbits available? Feed me info ...please! > >GMD > > George, I don't have the magazine here with me, but I just saw the animal in question briefly covered in the latest "Chevy High Performance". There are 4 DI coils on each valve cover. The engine is an aluminum block, with cast-in cylinder liners. I don't recall too much more. Sorry. Mike ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:42:41 -0400 Subject: Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) Matthew wrote: > However, alcohol is very corrosive on internal engine components. > Therefore, it is only suitable (and used) for racing applications. I seem to recall that it is methanol which is corrosive. Ethanol is much less so, and some of use up to 10% blends at gas stations in the USA(gasohol) with no ill effect on gaskets and aluminum components. - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Kalle Pihlajasaari Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:55:14 +0200 (sat) Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer.--telma Hi, > >>Other stupid ideas...... > >>Build a back yard dyno out of a truck axle..... > > > >Not so stupid... Know what a Telma is? > >It's an electromagnetic brake system used on trucks & buses. > >They are normally mounted inline with the propeller shaft. > >If you've noticed the bus driver activate braking through a > >multiposition stalk near the steering wheel, that's the control stick. > > > >They should be fairly easy to find at appropriate breakers yards. > >The nice thing about them is that the braking effect is current > >controlled. So they should need only (very) high current drivers > >to be directly controlled from a micro. They are also small and > >light in proportion to their braking effect. > > > Is anybody in the U.S. on this list familiar with a "Telma"? This sounds > like just the ticket! I think they might be called a Thelma but the same thing at any rate. There are 2 other similar devices collectively called retarders that are retrofitted or option on trucks and busses. One of them is a Hydraulic system (similar to a locked output fluid coupling with variable fluid level) made by Voith (a german company) the third one I'm not sure of. Some Voith transmissions have the retarder built in. All of these units convert to heat and are typically plumbed into the vehicle cooling system with 2" pipes. They would certainly be a suitable load for a cottage dyno as they are pretty well self contained but you would have to work with the controls a bit. Normally very secretive about the load dump algorithms to prevent overheating and such. The Thelma units have a dubious reputation in South Africa due to the poor heat removal with big hills and warm weather, some of them I think had air only cooling. They aer not rated for continuous load but you might get bretty close unless you are trying to test a truck engine. Cheers - -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@xxx.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 ------------------------------ From: "Woodd, Michael" Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:53:00 +1200 Subject: 1986 Honda Prelude fuel injection proble Hi all, I have the above car (for those who care, the model preceeding the 4 wheel steerer), with the 2.0 twin cam injected engine, automatic tranny (boo hoo), catalytic convertor, but pretty amazing handling if you dare. It was a Japanese import, got it cheap. I am wanting to find out if anyone has any first hand experience tuning one of these. Any information would be good for curiosity and future use. i.e. what processor, general system type, open loop or not, sequential or batch injectors, does it have an exhaust sensor of some description you name it, if you know it, I want it.... :) My problem at the moment though, is that it idles way too fast both at fast idle and warm idle, it absolutely chews through gas around town (as low as 20l 96 octane per ~120 km, it seems i'm always putting the stuff in), and it seems to have a big torque hole below 3200 rpm (i.e. it pulls ok from there, and really strong from about 4100 to 6000 before practically dying at redline 6500, so much so that it seems artificially induced but not by rev limiter. Also, there is a speed cutout at 190 km/h that I want to remove ;-). Want to fix it myself, as I don't know of anyone local I can trust to do a good job so I'd rather f*ck it up myself. Oh, runs a filthy black exhaust, so I assume a rich running condition is to blame for at least some of the above, but i'll leave you to judge for yerself. Anybody know of anything I can check for these problems? Anybody know of simple perf. mods? Cheers ears. ps what does EGO and HEGO stand for, is this another name for a Lambda sensor? Mike Woodd (wooddm@xxx.nz) ------------------------------ From: Frank F Parker Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: EGO Sensors and linearity On 20 Aug 1996, Alexander M. Lichstein wrote: > If you look at the math involved with understanding the output of an O2 sensor, > I can't BELIEVE that you can make a claim that you will be able to determine an > A/F from the output (even with Temp.) You would need to know the proportions > of exhaust gas components at every temperature (including SPECIES of SOx, NOx > etc.) in order to make that claim. I am tired of reading this garbage. Anyone > have any science to back themselves up??? > > - Z Well this is one of those cases where you are trying to overanalyze the situation. I agree it is hard to make any sort of accurate>calculation of a/f from a standard HEGO although a lot of people are able to monitor changes from mods, compare to trap times and note for example that a change from .82 to .84 volts in that particular car and temps correspond to a too rich situation and trap times fall. It is repeatable until sensor ages to a certain point. Bosch sells the LA-2 $8000 a/f meter that reads accurate a/f ratios using a modified HEGO, NOT a UEGO. THis sensor is modified for reduced flows and constant temp. The box reads voltage, compensates for temp and reads out a/f. Read about it in "Automotive Electronics Handbook by Ronald Jergens, editor. Section on O2 sensors by Bosch engineer. I and another user on working on homebrew box to be used with the Bosch sensor which is cheap that will read out a/f and be affordable. It may not be perfect but it works and is used everyday in labs all over the world. Frank Parker PS- I agree lot of talk I see showing simple voltage measurement to read a/f is garbage by people that do not understand, but do not make blanket observations, you might be suprised. I have Bosch curves from LA-2 and it works!. fp ------------------------------ From: John Dammeyer Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 16:13 PDT Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #236 At 08:11 AM 20/08/1996 -0700, you wrote: >John D wrote: > >>Realisticaly a different power source is required, like fuel cells using >>hydrogen and oxygen. > Wanna learn more? Check out my web site: > > http://mashtun.jpl.nasa.gov/section342.html > Look for the fuel cell page. > >paul t- Paul, Nice WEB page. Frames and all. Very interesting on the fuel cells. Thanks, John. Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: pantera@xxx.com (David Doddek) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:45:46 -0500 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI My 2 cents on the simple pot based efi system. There is a lot of talk out there, but has any one actually made one of these systems? I have!!. I first built an 8085 based system in college and used the idea of controlling the main fuel curve with pots. I even had a dash mounted pot for changing overall ignition timing. Kinda like being able to turn the distribuator while driving. So I have the real experience to say that the simple system using just a few pots will work. Out of curosity, I even cloned the system in the analog environment. It only used a few op amps and some resistors. With a little work, I could of made it temperature stable. I took the simple system a bit further and am even selling it retail. To the people that have used it, they like it. I have had one on my own car for over 2 years now. So I must agree, even though the fancy networks and programing languages can make for interesting extras, They are not needed to have a functional EFI system. Remember the KISS principle. David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Zero Emissions Vehicle (was Electric Veh.) At 02:44 PM 8/19/96 PDT, John Dammeyer wrote: >Realistically a different power source is required, like fuel cells using >hydrogen and oxygen. As i understand it in Vancouver there is already a >pilot project under way that uses fuel cells in a few buses. There are You're thinking of Ballard Energy? Systems. Innovative crew. They have an OH fuel cell the size of a large suitcase (well, maybe a footlocker) that puts out about 2KW. I believe thay sold a couple of the busses that they built to LA for testing. Not very cost effective yet, and the fuel cell system takes up almost 1/3 of the bus volume, but it has promise... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 19:29:41 -0700 Subject: Re: 1986 Honda Prelude fuel injection proble Michael, Sounds like the car has a problem and is running in limp home mode. Check out the diagnostic LED on the computer and see if it's flashing a code at you. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering Woodd, Michael wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have the above car (for those who care, the model preceeding the 4 wheel > steerer), > with the 2.0 twin cam injected engine, automatic tranny (boo hoo), catalytic > convertor, > but pretty amazing handling if you dare. It was a Japanese import, got it > cheap. > > I am wanting to find out if anyone has any first hand experience tuning one > of these. Any > information would be good for curiosity and future use. i.e. what processor, > general system > type, open loop or not, sequential or batch injectors, does it have an > exhaust sensor of some > description you name it, if you know it, I want it.... :) > > My problem at the moment though, is that it idles way too fast both at fast > idle and warm idle, > it absolutely chews through gas around town (as low as 20l 96 octane per > ~120 km, > it seems i'm always > putting the stuff in), and it seems to have a big torque hole below 3200 rpm > (i.e. it pulls ok from > there, and really strong from about 4100 to 6000 before practically dying at > redline 6500, so > much so that it seems artificially induced but not by rev limiter. Also, > there is a speed cutout > at 190 km/h that I want to remove ;-). Want to fix it myself, as I don't > know of anyone local I > can trust to do a good job so I'd rather f*ck it up myself. Oh, runs a > filthy black exhaust, so I > assume a rich running condition is to blame for at least some of the above, > but i'll leave you > to judge for yerself. > > Anybody know of anything I can check for these problems? Anybody know of > simple perf. > mods? > > Cheers ears. > > ps what does EGO and HEGO stand for, is this another name for a Lambda > sensor? > > Mike Woodd > (wooddm@xxx.nz) ------------------------------ From: tom sparks Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 01:02:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Flaming material At 05:23 8/20/1996 +-200, you wrote: >Can we get back to the EFI bit of DIY_EFI? 'Else we are going to end up side tracked big time! > >Sorry for getting in there, but it did need saying. > >Anyway... any body out there had any ideas on plead for help about EFI mathematics?? > >Or, shall I post my best efforts, and let you guys pick holes in them??? I'm easy either way, you guys out there must have done this bit of the design before and therefore know sumit about it! > >TTFN > >Mark Mark: Here is a page of formulas with their algorithims you may find helpful!: http://devserve.cebaf.gov/~bowling/auto.html ------------------------------ From: Johan Rodling Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:13:04 +0100 Subject: My CIY EFI Tom Cloud wrote: >Then, (not a rhetorical question) does anyone out there have any 'current' >experience with FORTH. I used it a long time ago on 8080, 8085, Z-80 >systems and loved it. The problem I had was getting it to really like >ROM'ed code -- but it worked nonetheless, and quite well. There's a company called New Micros. They make SBC's and their own MCU's with FORTH. Check out 'www.newmicros.com'. Seems to be fairly priced chips. Well, thats about all I know about them. By the way, Hi all you out there! I'm new to this list. The reason why I'm here is that the current EFI in my Jaguar XJ12 -74 sucks! So it needs to be replaced. I'm planing to make my own EFI instead of the old analog stuff. Any ideas? Hard- & Software development is my game, so that should not be any problem. Johan Rodling Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR - ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@xxx.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #238 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".