DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 22 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 241 In this issue: Re: My DIY EFI Re: My DIY EFI Data Logging Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. re: Direct Ignition Re: Slide Throttles Re: linear EFI Re: EFI musings Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. Re: EFI musings Re: Data Logging re: Re: Slide Throttles Re[3]: Truck parts Dynamometer. re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. re: Direct Ignition Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. Re: Truck parts Dynamometer Re: EFI musings Re: Slide Throttles Re: Data Logging Re: linear EFI Why not an E.F.Air.I. Direct Ignition Re: linear EFI Re: linear EFI 2-Stroke Re: EFI musings Re: linear EFI RE: Why not an E.F.Air.I. Re: Data Logging Auto Tool Definitions Re: EFI musings See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Giles Case Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:20:57 +0100 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI At 19:02 21/08/96 +0100, you wrote: >In message <9608210045.AA07730@xxx.com>, David Doddek >Yes I have made a fuel injection controller using analog techniques. It >was a simple M.A.P. sensed system giving one injection per revolution >with the fuel quantity determined by M.A.P. and water temp. I had a >pot to set offset and one to set gain. The offset pot was used to set >the idle mixture, and the gain pot to set max torque mixture. I had a >differentiator circuit driven from the throttle pot to give a richer >mixture on acceleration. It was tried on a 1 litre Hillman Imp engine >using Weber alpha injector housing elbows mounted on a twin 40DCOE >manifold. A home made glass-fibre plenum chamber fed the four inlet >runners with the airflow control by a single throttle body. It worked >remarkably well. When I get the old Clan Crusader back on the road I'm >going to do a PCB for the circuit. (The Clan is a little known Imp >engined UK GRP sportscar) Is that an A-Series engine ? If so I would be intrested on ANY info you could send my way! Thanks Giles ------------------------------ From: Giles Case Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:17:58 +0100 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI At 08:25 21/08/96 -0500, you wrote: > >>> stable. I took the simple system a bit further and am even selling it >>> retail. To the people that have used it, they like it. I have had one on >>> my own car for over 2 years now. So I must agree, even though the fancy >>> networks and programing languages can make for interesting extras, They are >>> not needed to have a functional EFI system. Remember the KISS principle. >>> >>Could you give me more info about your system, and the cost of it? >> >>Thanks. >> >>Andrew >> >> Dr A. N. Bosch >>Physiology Department/ Sports Science Institute >>University of Cape Town Medical School >>P. O. Box 115 >>Newlands 7700 >>South Africa > Same 4 me Please.. Giles ------------------------------ From: David Crocombe Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:36:28 +1000 Subject: Data Logging >> If the engine is in a car, all you need is a stopwatch, a tach, a tape >> recorder, and a hill. > Why not use some kind of data logger connected to the tachometer (or > speedometer), > a spreadsheet program and a straight road? Out of this info, you would > easily be able to calculate the power with a good enough precision. > Anyone who has tried to build such a logger? > /Jonas One of my long term aims is to produce an engine data logging system. I am at the early learning stages at the moment. I thought by reading this list I would pick up some ideas. So I would measure the same things as EFI systems, only log the results instead of using it to do EFI. I am thinking of using an accelerometer as well. Another interest is to add to the above system a control for nitrous oxide injection. Not quite the normal EFI, but EFI none the less. Regards, David Crocombe. Sydney, Australia. ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:40:30 +0000 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. > From: wmcgonegal@xxx.ca > Building a chassis dynamometer is not a trivial task. I have been [cut good dyno information] The Telma idea sounds like one worth investigating, since my need for a dyno is for an - uh - offroad engine application. The biggest problem with almost any dyno is getting rid of the heat generated. For a 200HP engine, that's more than 500,000 BTU/hr. That's enough to boil off 523lbs of water per hour, or 65 gallons. - --- David Parrish The heat is oo-on, The heat is on! ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:40:48 -0500 Subject: re: Direct Ignition >brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Wrote: >| still coming up on the learning curve and I was wondering what direct >| ignition is? I hope it is not an idea I have been kicking around in my > >Direct ignition=no distributor. One small coil per plug, > >Steve Ravet >sravet@xxx.com The books I have say (granted they're from the fifties and sixties): - any ignition system with more than one cylinder uses a distribution system (for high voltage distribution, the familiar "distributor" is used, when separate coils, the "distributor" is the controller or, eons ago, sets of points). - when the high voltage from the spark coil is switched from one cylinder to another, that is _secondary_ distribution - when the primary voltage is switched to different coils, that is _primary_ distribution (guess this is now called _direct_ ignition). This system has been around for several decades as primary distribution. Tom Cloud cloud@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:49:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Slide Throttles >SRavet@xxx.com wrote: > >> OK, what is a slide throttle? I thought it was simply a "cover" that >> slides over a "hole". But that wouldn't tend to stick closed. so what is >> it? >> > > It is just a plate over a hole, but try this. >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering > Okay, Todd: 1 - I didn't yell at you about Radio Shack, sorry you felt like I did. I buy 'stuff' there too, just thought the newbie ought to be forewarned. 2 - What do you call the little round, tubular slides that were in my Triumph and Honda motorcycles ?? Tom Cloud cloud@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:24:47 -0500 Subject: Re: linear EFI >tom > >Have you actually taken the holley EFI system apart? I would be interested >in knowing what is actually inside. I always thought that it was a digital >system with a set of pot inputs. If it was a true analog system, then the >box should be about 1/4 th of the size. Go ahead, take it apart, enquiring >minds want to know. If you would like to have a schematic drawn of it, I >would be willing to do that too. I have made a hobby of tracing schematics >of circuit boards. > >David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com Yeah, I looked inside it, put it back together and hooked it up. It's a hybrid digital / analog. Can't say if there's a micro in it or just some VLSI in a large chip as there were no recognizable part nos. Tearing it apart to get the schematic is somewhere down on my list, but I guess I figured I could do as well on my own (the concepts seem simple enough). I'm just one of those guys that collects data forever -- especially when I still have to finish tiling the entrance way, painting the house, teaching the extra classes to pay for the damned Suburban for the wife and kiddies ... etc. (why won't Ford make one? Did you know that GM was still putting TBI in their pickups and Suburbans, etc through '95? Ford started putting port inj. into trucks in '86 or so. Go figure.) I have gotten sooo *professional* that I've actually cleaned out my garage, taken virtually all my parts stock up to the college where I work and given it to the students, and ditched most of my jewelry making stuff. I still have the two work-benches, scope, power supplies, function gen, etc. plus the Dillon reloader and many milk cartons full of brass, so I am still providing shelter for maybe three to four thousand dollars worth of junk I don't use very often while forty or fifty thousand dollars 'worth' of cars sit outside in the driveway. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I can't find the time to go to the shooting range and practice my 2700 competition nor find time to work on my pet electronics projects (hardly even water, much less talk to, my plants) I guess I'll just spend some spare time at work collecting data on, what at the moment, is one of my pet interests: specifically making my toy go faster. Oh, I'd like to have perfect fuel distribution and VE like everyone else on this list, along with all the other little neat doo-dads (like data collection, ignition control, emissions control, fuel economy, etc.) My posts, though obviously opinionated (who me?), are, just like the rest of youse guys, just me grubbing around hashing out some ideas. So, back to the Holley system. My poor Bronco's engine lies scattered all over one of my workbenches, and I am determined to do it right. which means it'll be there a while (gotta get funding, can't raise taxes on anyone -- drat!!) so I may actually have time to take the Holley beastie apart. And yes, I've drawn lots of schematics from PCB's -- not my idea of a good time (must admit I think a guy that'd offer to do it for someone else is a little strange). I'm not sure I want to tackle doing the Holley unit, but, if I get snowed in, I might (snows a lot here). Thanks for writing (my FAX 512-833-5745) Tom Cloud cloud@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:09:00 +0000 Subject: Re: EFI musings - -> Carbs (for my application) are worth $1500 as opposed to the $300 for - -> my EFI+Ignition $300? I'm involved with an EFI project right now. We paid $300 for the process controller board alone, though it's a pretty fancy piece with its own operating system and lots of A/D. $50 for the addressable prototype board. $75 for AMP O-ring-sealed bulkhead connectors for the main harness. $40 for Weatherpak pigtails for the sensors. $30 for a pair of used dual coils. $45 for a salvage EFI intake which happened to fit my engine, and it came with injectors, rails, throttle body, TPS, and idle control solenoid. I got a fuel pump for free. We just sent off a $200 order for injector and coil drivers, power transistors, and assorted electronic miscellanea. Managed to find an appropriate MAF for $5; knock sensor is $35, MAP sensor is $40, MAT and CTS $10 each. Even with some killer deals on parts it adds right on up there, and we're not done yet. Sounds like some awfully expensive carbs and astoundingly cheap electronics. ====dave.williams@xxx.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:21:00 +0000 Subject: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. - -> our facility. Building the rolls is a large task. They have to be - -> machined on large lathes and balanced. If you go with small diameter - -> rolls they must be carefully balanced as they will be spinning faster - -> then large rolls. The rolls on my Clayton chassis dyno are 8" in diameter and about 7 feet long. Appropriate tubing for new rolls is $7/ft locally, and any driveshaft shop should be able to spin balance them. - -> The tires slip on the rolls at higher powers, and there is a lot of - -> energy lost by the tires heating up as they deflect at the roll Yes. They're only useful as full-range dynos for less powerful cars, but they're quite handy for doing low speed and part throttle work on any car. - -> our engine and chassis dynamometers is to use regenerative DC motors - -> as PAUs. The DC motors operate as generators to absorb the power and I checked that out once. An appropriately sized DC motor, new, appears to be in the $15,000 range. Apparently they sometimes show up on the market as scrap, but I haven't found one. It's ironic that getting rid of horsepower is more difficult than making it in the first place... ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:39:50 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI musings "George M. Dailey" wrote: > >Surprise, surprise! I drive '58 truck. But I've cheated with the TPI & >700-R. I wonder what the other DIY'ers drive every day. Sound off. > >Simple, If you buy an already engineered system off of an junked car and >retrofit to your carbed vehicle, you get that excellent mix if very low >price & DIY satisfaction plus 14mpg city (plain HT-350 though). > > >GMD > George, Thank you. A few of the posts I take the time to print and save (and share). Yours is one of those. You've struck a chord with me -- what you've done is what seems to me to be the most logical course of action. My purchase of an aftermarket EFI was done because I'd already spent $200 replacing the old variable venturi carb on my Ford with a Holley carb. Got better performance for the same dismal (8 mpg) mileage. Knew it should be at least 12 to 14 mpg. Figured in about 30,000 miles, the $600 EFI system would pay for itself, knew I'd never be happy with any carb (no, not even Carter / Edelbrock). Several of my mechanic friends highly recommended the Holley EFI. It does quite well, but I want better. My problem is that the Ford EEC-xx don't seem to be very 'loser friendly'. Someone mentioned using a GM unit, and I can see that that might not be such a bad idea -- mixing the Ford manifold, etc. with a GM controller. (Hey, I've (very slightly) even considered putting a GM 350 back into my Bronco for the simple reason there is so much stuff available for it.) While I'm on this subject: Hey, Ed Hernandez. You're with Ford. Why don't those guys promote more stuff for the car afficianado, huh ?? Thanks, Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:51:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Data Logging > >One of my long term aims is to produce an engine data logging system. >I am at the early learning stages at the moment. > >..... I am thinking of using an accelerometer >as well. > >David Crocombe. >Sydney, >Australia. > David, If you come up with any data on inexpensive accelerometers, I would like to know. Depends on what you're doing, but for acceleration info, one would only need a single-axis unit. If you're interested, I have some info on accelerometers, but they're all like $200 or more. Tom Cloud Austin, Texas cloud@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 10:07:26 CDT Subject: re: Re: Slide Throttles Todd Knighton Wrote: | | SRavet@xxx.com wrote: | | > OK, what is a slide throttle? I thought it was simply a "cover" that | > slides over a "hole". But that wouldn't tend to stick closed. so what is | > it? | > | | It is just a plate over a hole, but try this. Put a ruler on the | ground and move it around, easy right. now have someone stand on it, a | little more difficult. Same idea, because of the great pressure | differential caused by turbo motors and supercharged motors on surge, | the plates have an enormous amount of pressure placed on them. They | tend to deflect and stick in the tracks because the tracks are precision | machined for a good seal and no rattle in the vertical direction. Apply | a bit of curvature in a linear track, uhnt wallah, we have schticking. Doesn't the wastegate vent that pressure? Next, what is a barrel throttle? - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Terry Sare Date: 22 Aug 96 10:02 CDT Subject: Re[3]: Truck parts Dynamometer. What about the surplus DC generators they use for welders? They are 400 Amp units -- what horsepower would they use up? _ - -> our facility. Building the rolls is a large task. They have to be - -> machined on large lathes and balanced. If you go with small diameter - -> rolls they must be carefully balanced as they will be spinning faster - -> then large rolls. The rolls on my Clayton chassis dyno are 8" in diameter and about 7 feet long. Appropriate tubing for new rolls is $7/ft locally, and any driveshaft shop should be able to spin balance them. - -> The tires slip on the rolls at higher powers, and there is a lot of - -> energy lost by the tires heating up as they deflect at the roll Yes. They're only useful as full-range dynos for less powerful cars, but they're quite handy for doing low speed and part throttle work on any car. - -> our engine and chassis dynamometers is to use regenerative DC motors - -> as PAUs. The DC motors operate as generators to absorb the power and I checked that out once. An appropriately sized DC motor, new, appears to be in the $15,000 range. Apparently they sometimes show up on the market as scrap, but I haven't found one. It's ironic that getting rid of horsepower is more difficult than making it in the first place... ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 10:05:35 CDT Subject: re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Wrote: | I think the easiest way for a DIYer to calculate power output from a | vehicle is (as mentioned in other postings) to accelerate on a flat | stretch of road while recording speed versus time. From this | acceleration can be calculated. Power is calculated as Vehicle Mass * | Acceleration * Speed. If kg, meters/second squared, and meters/ | second are used the result is in Watts. Someone on the hotrod list a long time ago suggested putting a hall effect type sensor at the both ends of the driveshaft and measuring how much it twists. Another idea was a very large flywheel hanging in a pit in the ground, measure how fast the engine is able to accelerate it. This sounds dangerous, but the driveshaft twist would be easy enough. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Robert Van Zant Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. > -> The tires slip on the rolls at higher powers, and there is a lot of > -> energy lost by the tires heating up as they deflect at the roll So why not eliminate the tires, and mechanically couple the axles or steel wheels to *something*? bob ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:35:00 +0000 Subject: re: Direct Ignition Typically, ignition without a distributor is referred to as "distributorless" and uses coils and plug wires. When the coil is mounted directly on the spark plug it is referred to as "direct" ignition. SAAB gets credit for it, but Fordson tractors did it in my grandfather's day. Champion still lists replacements. Mounting the coil directly to the plug creates problems in space management - it's often hard enough to find a place for the plug itself, much less a coil - but it eliminates the wire, which can be damaged or deteriorate with time, helps reduce RFI, etc. ------------------------------ From: Kalle Pihlajasaari Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:35:34 +0200 (sat) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Truck parts Dynamometer. Hi, What diameter shaft would one look at for coupling the rolls together and to the Retarder ? > -> The tires slip on the rolls at higher powers, and there is a lot of > -> energy lost by the tires heating up as they deflect at the roll > > Yes. They're only useful as full-range dynos for less powerful cars, > but they're quite handy for doing low speed and part throttle work on > any car. The rolls at the break testing facility at the roadworthy testing site inmy home town have regular link chain wrapped around the rolls in a close spiral. This makes the surface of uneven diameter and would give a different result depending on the weight on the wheels I feel. Does one need to check revs from the wheel or is the roller good enough for most tests (comparative) Cheers - -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@xxx.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 ------------------------------ From: Jody Shapiro Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Truck parts Dynamometer > wmcgonegal@xxx.ca Wrote: > > | I think the easiest way for a DIYer to calculate power output from a > | vehicle is (as mentioned in other postings) to accelerate on a flat > | stretch of road while recording speed versus time. From this > | acceleration can be calculated. Power is calculated as Vehicle Mass * > | Acceleration * Speed. If kg, meters/second squared, and meters/ > | second are used the result is in Watts. > > Someone on the hotrod list a long time ago suggested putting a hall effect > type sensor at the both ends of the driveshaft and measuring how much it > twists. Another idea was a very large flywheel hanging in a pit in the > ground, measure how fast the engine is able to accelerate it. This sounds > dangerous, but the driveshaft twist would be easy enough. > > --steve There's a place here in NH that has a product called (I believe) DynoMite that uses a strain gauge on the driveshaft to do HP measurements. They were at SEMA last year. I have the blurb and contact phone # at home if anyone's interested. - -Jody ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:08:14 -0400 Subject: Re: EFI musings >While I'm on this subject: Hey, Ed Hernandez. You're with Ford. > Why don't those guys promote more stuff for the car afficianado, huh >?? Excellent question. Wish I knew. And it's not just Ford, the aftermarket seem to place a premium on Ford bits IF they offer them at all. And most 'open' rags seem to have more Chevies than Fords(ie, Hot Rod, PHR, etc). Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but I still wish I knew the answer to your question. I have suspicion$, but I can't elaborate. Still collecting responses...;) Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Alexander.M.Lichstein@xxx. Lichstein) Date: 22 Aug 96 12:22:17 EDT Subject: Re: Slide Throttles Those were called concentric slides. ------------------------------ From: Matthew Lamari Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:22:58 -0500 Subject: Re: Data Logging >David, >If you come up with any data on inexpensive accelerometers, I would >like to know. Depends on what you're doing, but for acceleration info, >one would only need a single-axis unit. If you're interested, I >have some info on accelerometers, but they're all like $200 or more. > If you're talking about vehicle acceleration, I have the cheapest one in existence. In my crappy 89 Camaro, there is one in the fuel tank. That's right, you accelerate and you suddenly have a lot more fuel (kind of the opposite of what's really going on) and when decelerating you have a lot less fuel. (joke) Matthew. ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:36:58 +0000 Subject: Re: linear EFI > for the wife and kiddies ... etc. (why won't Ford make one? Did you > know that GM was still putting TBI in their pickups and Suburbans, > etc through '95? Ford started putting port inj. into trucks in '86 > or so. Go figure.) Struck me as goofy too - looked into it before I picked up a '90 chevy cargo van a few weeks ago. The unofficial answer I got from someone that should know was that, for whatever reason, TBI was providing a better (more suited to trucks) torque curve. Yes - go figure. - -mike mfahrion@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: jwest@xxx.edu (Joe West) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:07:07 -0600 Subject: Why not an E.F.Air.I. Hello all. Being new to this area of expertise I have a question that might seem silly but then again. Why not have a system that injects a measured amount of air at a set or variable pressure into the cylinder. (for racing purposes only) Just compresed air not any specific oxidizer, like nitrous for example. The system could use the best of both carb and EFI. Say that you had a SCUBA tank 80cuft at 3000 psi which was pressure regulated and would send a pulsed charge to each cylinder individualy. Passing over a fuel inlet jet before reaching the combustion chamber. Now you have the vapor of a carb. and the regulation of an EFI. Not the mention the boost of a supercharger. Or use the tank to maintain a fixed pressure in the manifold runners ? The CFM rate might be a problem in anything but drag racing. Just an idea, but then again. Joseph D. West Electronics Lab. Supervisor College of Mechanical Eng. Ohio State University (614) 292-2845 Fax (614) 292-3163 ------------------------------ From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:38:27 -0500 Subject: Direct Ignition >From what sources may one obtain materials for the specifications relating to, and the fabrication of, a direct injection ignition system. I have heard "Small" Coils for each cylinder mentioned, the reason is clear, but I'd like a little technical background or some paper citations if anyone has this. John Brewer "Any man who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin ------------------------------ From: Matthew Lamari Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: linear EFI At 11:36 AM 8/22/96 +0000, you wrote: >> for the wife and kiddies ... etc. (why won't Ford make one? Did you >> know that GM was still putting TBI in their pickups and Suburbans, >> etc through '95? Ford started putting port inj. into trucks in '86 >> or so. Go figure.) > >Struck me as goofy too - looked into it before I picked up a '90 >chevy cargo van a few weeks ago. The unofficial answer I got from >someone that should know was that, for whatever reason, TBI was >providing a better (more suited to trucks) torque curve. I think it's that the TBI only really loses with top-end power. In reality, it's because it provides a better (suited to trucks) COST curve :) Same as how the corvette gets aluminium, Camaro gets half aluminium and the truck gets metal engine at lower compression. The displacement generally provides the low-down torque people desire in the trucks, and don't put in the extra cost for top end power. Matt > >Yes - go figure. > >-mike >mfahrion@xxx.com > > ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:36:30 -0500 Subject: Re: linear EFI >> for the wife and kiddies ... etc. (why won't Ford make one? Did you >> know that GM was still putting TBI in their pickups and Suburbans, >> etc through '95? Ford started putting port inj. into trucks in '86 >> or so. Go figure.) > >Struck me as goofy too - looked into it before I picked up a '90 >chevy cargo van a few weeks ago. The unofficial answer I got from >someone that should know was that, for whatever reason, TBI was >providing a better (more suited to trucks) torque curve. > >Yes - go figure. > >-mike >mfahrion@xxx.com > Yeah, well some great cosmic revelation must have just struck, as the chevies are now like the fords, except they put a vortex (is it turbo or superch) so they could make more h.p. Check the ford vs gm hp/torque curve (pre-'96 and vortex, TBI) and note that only 10 h.p. diff between ford 302 and gm 350. tom ------------------------------ From: Thomas Burns Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:51:57 -0500 Subject: 2-Stroke I am think of converting my Yamaha Enduro to EFI. Currently it has a good carb, but it is easy to work on and would probably prove to be a good learning experience since I would need to engineer the system from scratch. It has a 396cc 2 stroke motor. Anyone ever EFI-ize a 2 stroke? - -Tom ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:04:40 -0500 Subject: Re: EFI musings > it's not just Ford, [ snip ] >Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but I still wish I knew the answer >to your question. I have suspicion$, but I can't elaborate. > One would hope it was (just) a corporate decision that it was not lucrative enough to be worth the while. [Boy, I hope it's not the Arabs, GM, enviro-wackos, or communists.] It's certainly not that fords don't win their share of competitions nor have their share of hot rodders --- BUT !! WHY would they do something so stupid (at least to me) as to make modifications to their controllers so consarned difficult ?? I mean, someone on the group sort of inferred putting a GM controller in my Ford -- sounds like maybe a great idea! There's lots of stuff out there for the GM unit. Don't know what problem would arise trying to interface to the sensors or cable. Can't see much else besides that. Does anyone know where I should start looking? I understand there's "ports" for some GM controller that allows confuser hookup for programming. Which controller is that? Where does one find the "port"? How much is it? Has anyone actually cross-bred one of these things to something else? tom cloud austin community college austin, texas ** the ideas expressed here (if you can call them that) do not represent my opinion or anyone elses ------------------------------ From: "Edward C. Hernandez" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:27:11 -0400 Subject: Re: linear EFI > I think it's that the TBI only really loses with top-end power. In >reality, it's because it provides a better (suited to trucks) COST >curve :) TBI will lose the whole rpm range to a good port injected intake. Ergo... - -- Ed Hernandez Ford Motor Company ehernan3@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Paul Neelands Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 16:20:31 -0400 Subject: RE: Why not an E.F.Air.I. - ---------- From: Joe West[SMTP:jwest@xxx.edu] :Why not have a system that injects a measured amount of air at a :set or :variable pressure into the cylinder. (for racing purposes only) Just :compresed :air not any specific oxidizer, like nitrous for example. Why not just inject liquid oxygen. Paul Neelands ------------------------------ From: Johan Rodling Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 22:44:25 +0100 Subject: Re: Data Logging > From owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu Thu Aug 22 18:02 GMT 1996 > Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:51:02 -0500 > X-Sender: cloud@xxx.edu Tom Cloud wrote: > If you come up with any data on inexpensive accelerometers, I would > like to know. Depends on what you're doing, but for acceleration info, > one would only need a single-axis unit. If you're interested, I > have some info on accelerometers, but they're all like $200 or more. > Analog Devices has the chip, ADXL-05, which is an accelerometer implement in a single chip with some kind of micro mechanics. It seems to be be quit cheep too, about 175 Skr, thats roughly $25 in 1 to 10 pieces. /JR Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR - ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@xxx.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 ------------------------------ From: adh@xxx.us Date: Thu, 22 Aug 96 12:43:40 EDT Subject: Auto Tool Definitions an oldie but a goodie... enjoy! Automobile Tool Definitions Hammer: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive car parts near the object aimed at. Mechanic's Knife: Used to open and slice through the contents of cardboard cartons delivered to your front door; works particularly well on boxes containing convertible tops or tonneau covers. Electric Hand Drill: Normally used for spinning steel Pop rivets in their holes until you die of old age, but it also works great for drilling roll bar mounting holes in the floor of a sports car just above the brake line that goes to the rear axle. Hacksaw: One of a family of cutting tools built on the Ouija board principle. It transforms human energy into a crooked, unpredictable motion, and the more you attempt to influence its course, the more dismal your future becomes. Vise-Grips: Used to round off bolt heads. If nothing else is available, they can also be used to transfer intense welding heat to the palm of your hand. Oxyacetelene Torch: Used almost entirely for lighting those stale garage cigarettes you keep hidden in the back of the Whitworth socket drawer (What wife would think to look in there?) because you can never remember to buy lighter fluid for the Zippo lighter you got from the PX at Fort Campbell. Zippo Lighter: See oxyacetelene torch. Whitworth Sockets: Once used for working on older British cars and motorcycles, they are now used mainly for hiding six-month old Salems from the sort of person who would throw them away for no good reason. Drill Press: A tall upright machine useful for suddenly snatching flat metal bar stock out of your hands so that it smacks you in the chest and flings your beer across the room, splattering it against the Rolling Stones poster over the bench grinder. Wire Wheel: Cleans rust off old bolts and then throws them somewhere under the workbench with the speed of light. Also removes fingerprint whorls and hard-earned guitar callouses in about the time it takes you to say, "Django Reinhardt". Hydraulic Floor Jack: Used for lowering a Mustang to the ground after you have installed a set of Ford Motorsports lowered road springs, trapping the jack handle firmly under the front air dam. Eight-Foot Long Douglas Fir 2X4: Used for levering a car upward off a hydraulic jack. Tweezers: A tool for removing wood splinters. Phone: Tool for calling your neighbor Chris to see if he has another hydraulic floor jack. Snap-On Gasket Scraper: Theoretically useful as a sandwich tool for spreading mayonnaise; used mainly for getting dog-doo off your boot. E-Z Out Bolt and Stud Extractor: A tool that snaps off in bolt holes and is ten times harder than any known drill bit. Timing Light: A stroboscopic instrument for illuminating grease buildup on crankshaft pulleys. Two-Ton Hydraulic Engine Hoist: A handy tool for testing the tensile strength of ground straps and hydraulic clutch lines you may have forgotten to disconnect. Craftsman 1/2 x 16-inch Screwdriver: A large motor mount prying tool that inexplicably has an accurately machined screwdriver tip on the end without the handle. Battery Electrolyte Tester: A handy tool for transferring sulfuric acid from car battery to the inside of your toolbox after determining that your battery is dead as a doornail, just as you thought. Aviation Metal Snips: See Hacksaw. Trouble Light: The mechanic's own tanning booth. Sometimes called a drop light, it is a good source of vitamin D, "the sunshine vitamin", which is not otherwise found under cars at night. Health benefits aside, its main purpose is to consume 40-watt light bulbs at about the same rate that 105-mm howitzer shells might be used during, say, the first few hours of the Battle of the Bulge. More often dark than light, its name is somewhat misleading. Phillips Screwdriver: Normally used to stab the lids of old-style paper-and-tin oil cans and splash oil on your shirt; can also be used, as the name implies, to round off Phillips screw heads. Air Compressor: A machine that takes energy produced in a coal-burning power plant 200 miles away and transforms it into compressed air that travels by hose to a Chicago Pneumatic impact wrench that grips rusty suspension bolts last tightened 40 years ago by someone in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, and rounds them off. _______________________________________________________________________________ Andrew Hay | Forts are not distinguished from fortresses internet rambler | by the presence or absence of breastworks adh@xxx.us | nor by the size of their buttresses ------------------------------ From: "Tony Bryant" Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:50:42 +1200 Subject: Re: EFI musings > > -> Carbs (for my application) are worth $1500 as opposed to the $300 for > -> my EFI+Ignition > > $300? > > I'm involved with an EFI project right now. We paid $300 for the > process controller board alone, though it's a pretty fancy piece with > its own operating system and lots of A/D. $50 for the addressable > prototype board. $75 for AMP O-ring-sealed bulkhead connectors for the > main harness. $40 for Weatherpak pigtails for the sensors. $30 for a > pair of used dual coils. $45 for a salvage EFI intake which happened to > fit my engine, and it came with injectors, rails, throttle body, TPS, > and idle control solenoid. I got a fuel pump for free. We just sent > off a $200 order for injector and coil drivers, power transistors, and > assorted electronic miscellanea. Managed to find an appropriate MAF for > $5; knock sensor is $35, MAP sensor is $40, MAT and CTS $10 each. Even > with some killer deals on parts it adds right on up there, and we're not > done yet. > > Sounds like some awfully expensive carbs and astoundingly cheap > electronics. > Lets see. $130 for 8 injectors, $80 for fuel pump, $20 for fp reg, $40 for 50 ft of copper pipe (to make rail & return fuel line). $70 for assorted (second hand) electronic components, $20 for blank PCBs & etchant. $20 for case. $40 for crank angle sensors. $2 for TPS. No MAP. No MAF. No knock sensor. No Idle control solenoid. $20 for wiring. $50 for other miscellaneous crap. Using existing DHLA40s as throttle bodies. Uses existing manifold (heavily modified to accept injectors) Uses existing Coil. Total so far = NZ$492 (OK, so I underestimated a bit). And one year of my spare time.... As for carbs, I've been told I'll need at least a pair of DCOE/DHLA48 and would probably be better with 55mm carbs. Very rare, and extremely expensive. Manifolds to fit that size are a serious problem too. *********************************************************** * "Insanity is the only sane response to an insane world" * * >> bryantt@xxx.nz << * *********************************************************** ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #241 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".