DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 30 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 253 In this issue: Re: Fuel Lines Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils Re: Newer VATS Vehicles Bosch to Hitachi Maf Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils EFI332: PCB & WWW Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils Re: Bosch to Hitachi Maf RE: switching between EPROMS Re: Ignition Coils Re: My DIY EFI Re: Ignition Coils Re: switching between EPROMS Bosch to Hitachi MAF Re: Newer VATS Vehicles Re: Newer VATS Vehicles See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: brewer@xxx.com (John Brewer) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 06:10:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel Lines Have seen several discussoins concerning the routing of the return flow line; whether back to the tank, to the pump, whatever. Looking under the hood of a mid-eighties model Volkswagen Cabriolet, I noticed that the return line goes from the distribution box back to the pump, not to the tank. Just an observation... John Brewer "Any man who would trade liberty for security deserves neither." - Ben Franklin ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:10:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils > From: Darren McInnes > I've been looking for a supplier of Spark coils that mount on top of the Sparkplug for my EFI project. The Subaru SVX uses coil-per-plug. The coils are fairly small, but they're designed to go between dual overhead cams with a mounting boss to bolt to. (They're not all the same shape either.) - --- David Parrish I really like NOT having a distributor. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:28:31 -0500 Subject: Re: Newer VATS Vehicles > >What about the next year, after the thieves figured out how to get around it? >After all, if guys on the list can do it, so can anyone with enough >technical knowledge. > >regards >dn Yeah, but if you've ever served on a grand jury, as I have, you'd know the the smart thief is hard to find (pun intended). tom ------------------------------ From: "Terry McLane 312.630.0533" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:46:19 CDT Subject: Bosch to Hitachi Maf Thanks for the advice on how to invert the signal. The second part of my question related to some type of manual adjustment of the signal. In otherwords, the existing bosch MAF is setup to be wide open (0 volts) at engine peak torque (3200). It may flow about 220 CFM at this point. On the other hand, the Hitachi MAF may be able to flow 500 CFM, so a way needs to be found to adjust the voltage signal (besides inverting it), that the ECU would see. Assume that we have measured the voltage output of both units at 10 and 220 CFM (assume air temperature is equal). The Bosch puts out 4.7v at 10, and .3 volts at 220 CFM. On the other hand, the Hitachi puts out .5v at 10 CFM and 3.6v at 220. I'd like to have a programmable device that could convert the two, interpolating the voltage signals between the actual measured values (in this example, only two). Now that I've explained the situation better, perhaps there is a single solution to both the inversion and interpolation. Ideally, a black box which mates to the Hitachi MAF, and has a few dials one for each CFM level (actually MASS AIR level) allowing a user to specify the output reference voltage at each mass level, with the box interpolating between these. This type of device would allow you to use the excellent Hitachi MAF in place of most other MAF sensors. Anyone want to productize this and make some money? Terry McLane tm8@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: John Dammeyer Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 08:28 PDT Subject: Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils Check out you're local SAAB dealer. The 9000 and the newer 900 have spark plug mounted coils. Undoubtably they are Bosch devices so perhaps you can find an aftermarker dealer that can get generic Bosch parts at a fraction of the SAAB price. John At 12:14 PM 29/08/1996 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Everyone, > >I've been looking for a supplier of Spark coils that mount on top of the Sparkplug for my EFI project. > >The only supplier i have found in australia wants $500(AUS) per coil and >has no data available on them. > >Any assistance appreciated. > >Darren McInnes >Archer Technologies P/L > >Toyota Celica SX 1989 3S-GE Engine > > > Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud, with arrows in their backs. Automation Artisans Inc. Ph. 604-544-4950 6468 Loganberry Place Fax 604-544-4954 Victoria BC CANADA V8Z 7E6 ------------------------------ From: pfontana@xxx.it (fontana pasquale) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 96 17:31:49 +0200 Subject: EFI332: PCB & WWW HELLO TO ALL It's possible to know if the web site for the efi332 project is http://136.186.9.15/wwwhome/aden/efi332/ or http://www.cim.swin.edu.au/~aden/web-docs/efi332/ or another ??? How , when and where i can make a connection with this efi332 web site, or if exist, a efi332 mirror ??? Where I can purchase the pcb for the efi ecu 68332 based cpu and relative BDM?? Thanks for "those helpers" . PASQUALE *** ** \||/ * * ('') ------------------------------ From: Brian J Hanson/OIIS/EKC Date: 29 Aug 96 13:26:20 EDT Subject: Re: Sparkplug Mounted Ignition Coils I believe the newer Supra Turbos also use the sparkplug mounted coils. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:28:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Bosch to Hitachi Maf > Thanks for the advice on how to invert the signal. The second part of > my question related to some type of manual adjustment of the signal. [ snip ] > Assume that we have measured > the voltage output of both units at 10 and 220 CFM (assume air > temperature is equal). The Bosch puts out 4.7v at 10, and .3 volts at > 220 CFM. On the other hand, the Hitachi puts out .5v at 10 CFM and > 3.6v at 220. I'd like to have a programmable device that could convert > the two, interpolating the voltage signals between the actual measured > values (in this example, only two). If you'll build the inverting amp I drew, I think it'll fix the prob for you -- then you can get rich selling it. First, determine the difference in the ranges -- that's the gain. On the drawing I sent, gain A = R2 / R1. So, say you want 100k Zin. Then R1 = 100k. Say range of input is 4 volts and the range wanted out is 5. Then the gain is 5/4 and R2=(5/4)R1=500k/4. But, what if the desired output range is smaller? Sameo-sameo. Assume in=4 volts delta and out = 3 volts delta. Then R2=(3/4)R1=300k/4=75k. Now, all you gotta do is set the offset pot so that the output range starts and stops at the voltages you want. tom ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:44:48 +-200 Subject: RE: switching between EPROMS This is the beast that I've been talking about. :) Mark - ---------- From: Jody Shapiro[SMTP:jshapiro@xxx.Net] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 1996 11:54 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: switching between EPROMS There was a company (Adaptive _______ ???) that used to make a product called the PROMPaq (I think) for the GM ECM's that would allow you to switch between up to 5 EPROM's using a rotary keyswitch. I believe that you could even do it while driving. There were articles (and a few installs) in magazines like Hot Rod, Car Craft, and Popular Hot Rodding a few years ago (1990 - 1993) - -Jody ------------------------------ From: "Terry McLane 312.630.0533" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:56:21 CDT Subject: Re: Ignition Coils The Olds Quad 4 has had plug mounted coils for several years. They are easy to get at any GM dealership. Don't know if they're cheaper than the import (Bosch?) version. ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:46:19 +0100 Subject: Re: My DIY EFI In message <32243bc5.638818@xxx.net>, Jim Santoro writes >On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:51:08 +1000, you wrote: > >>Date sent: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:15:08 -0500 (CDT) >>From: Robert Van Zant >>To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >>Subject: Re: My DIY EFI >>Send reply to: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >> >>> >Could you give me more info about your system, and the cost of it? >>> Ditto >> >> Me three. >> >>bob >>rvanzant@xxx.net >> >> That makes me Four. >> >> Simon Tippett >> Tippy@xxx.au >> >> >Me too > >tdata@xxx.net I'm not sure if these reponses are due to my posting about a DIY analogue system or the other guy that posted information about a similar set-up. I'm doing a circuit description and a set of CADSTAR schematics for mine now. I am wondering whether there may be any chance of commercial sales of a kit of parts (including PCB) for this sort of thing. You would need to now what you were doing in setting this sort of system up though, in spite of the fact that I tried to make most of the adjustments non-interactive. One problem is that my initial prototype used some fairly expensive bits that I happened to have (such as a dc-dc converter running of an input of 9 to 36 Volts with a stabilised 12-0-12 V dc output). These made it easier to do conventional analogue design. Also I used separate drive amplifiers for each of the injectors. I think there is a Nat Semi injector driving chip (LM1949) that I would probably use now. The MAP sensor wasn't an automotive one but an industrial temperature compensated one sold by Farnell Electronic Components here in the UK. I guess that they're more expensive that the manufacturer's standard part. (but more linear perhaps.) UI hope to provide more information when I've drawn up the circuits properly. (Then I'll have to translate from DXF to JPG or GIF) Bye for now, - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: Neville Newman Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Ignition Coils > The Olds Quad 4 has had plug mounted coils for several years. They are > easy to get at any GM dealership. Don't know if they're cheaper than > the import (Bosch?) version. This was not true of any of the Quad-4 or Quad-OHC engines i opened up when i was doing diagnostic equipment development from '91-'94. They are distributorless, not direct. They use the equivalent of a high-voltage circuit board to route power from the coils to the plugs, rather than wires. They also were waste-spark systems, with only 2 coils to run all 4 cylinders. ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 13:22:41 -0700 Subject: Re: switching between EPROMS > Oops, I have the S4 too, Its been too long since I have used it... Where is > Protomotive Engineering anyways. > > Sandy Protomotive Engineering 32150 Thompson Road Winchester, CA 92596 (909) 926-2694 South Riverside County, close to where I-15, I-215 and Hiway 79 intersect in Temecula. ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:47:32 est Subject: Bosch to Hitachi MAF >the existing bosch MAF is setup to be wide open (0 volts) at engine >peak torque (3200). It may flow about 220 CFM at this point. On the >other hand, the Hitachi MAF may be able to flow 500 CFM, so a way >needs to be found to adjust the voltage signal (besides inverting >it), that the ECU would see. If 220CFM is 0V, then how is the ECU going to determine anything more than that (ie: negative volts). The way it looks to me is your ECU is limiting your airflow as much as your AFM. >Assume that we have measured the voltage output of both units at 10 >and 220 CFM (assume air temperature is equal). The Bosch puts out >4.7v at 10, and .3 volts at 220 CFM. On the other hand, the Hitachi >puts out .5v at 10 CFM and 3.6v at 220. Like all other MAFs, the Hitachi unit (I presume it's a bypass unit similar to that fitted to the previous model Taurus, and many other Fords), is non-linear and therefore a 2-point calibration will not be adequate. Also, at large throttle openings, the signal jumps around a bit, and the only way I know of getting around this is to purposely alias the signal by sampling synchronously at a pre-determined crank position. (I'm assuming a digital controller) Setting this up is no easy task (speaking from experience here) and if you get it wrong, you'll likely be out by more than 100% in some areas of the speed-load map. Andrew Rabbitt Orbital Engine Company PERTH Australia ------------------------------ From: "John Faubion" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 22:01:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Newer VATS Vehicles > What about the next year, after the thieves figured out how to get around it? > After all, if guys on the list can do it, so can anyone with enough > technical knowledge. Technical knowledge is great but it doesn't necessarily give you time to defeat it. The guys here that have cracked it have done it one of two ways. Either by trying each of 15 resistor values until it unlocked (with a 3-4 minute delay between each try) or by hacking the PROM which requires removing the computer, pulling the CalPak, removing the PROM, downloading it, editing it, blowing a new PROM and putting it all back together again. A thief just doesn't have the time to do all of this. He might be able to carry a spare CalPak with a modified PROM already in it but even if the thief decides to concentrate on a Corvettes there are about 8 different CalPaks he would have to carry. It still easier to use a tow truck or steal the keys. John Faubion jfaubion@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Newer VATS Vehicles At 08:28 AM 8/29/96 -0500, Tom Cloud wrote: >Yeah, but if you've ever served on a grand jury, as I have, you'd >know the the smart thief is hard to find (pun intended). > >tom Granted, but there's always some less than honest technogeek in the neighborhood who'll build tou a little black box for the right price... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #253 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".