DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 10 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 268 In this issue: Re: Water Injection for power? Re: Oval Shaped Valves Water Injection for power? Re: water injection; and methanol Re: Playing... RE: Oval Shaped Valves Re: Ancient History RE: Water Injection for power? RE: Oval Shaped Valves Re: Re Propane injectors re: Fuel Economy Re: Playing... Re: Water Injection for power? more water injection Re: Water Injection for power? RE: Fuel Economy RE: Ancient History Re: more water injection Re: Electric vehicle , wrong list for this discussion, but I must Re: more water injection Re: more water injection Al Tubing Bender O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Re: more water injection Re: more water injection Re: more water injection See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 02:43:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: Thor Johnson > To: DIY EFI Maillist > Subject: Water Injection for power? > Date: Sunday, September 08, 1996 4:31 PM > > > I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an > article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of > the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water > (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would > flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into > mechanical power. > Why bother? The British in their pre-war experiments with water injection directly injected the water in a fine mist into the inlet of the mechanical supercharger of the Rolls Royce engine powering the spitfire. At any reasonable injection rate engine thermal loss's went down as the per cent rate of water to fuel went up. If memory serves me correctly at about 30 percent the engines water cooling was no longer a factor. Methyl Alcohol was added in a small percentage as an antifreeze - tis no such thing as a warm day at 30,000+ feet altitude. I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. WTF does it work? 70% plus of chemical energy released by combustion leaves the engine as excess heat. Absorb any of that EXCESS heat and turn water to steam and you gain either power or fuel economy or both. PS Ever wonder what is really going on during combustion. Check the pressure temp curves of the three major gasses present after combustion. CO2, N2 and H2O. Check out how much partial pressure each contributes to the mix. Then remember, that as a rough approximate, one gallon of gasoline makes 2 gallons of water in the exhaust. PS During the 70's phony gas crisis's a dozen different people came out with aftermarket water injectors. About eighty bucks for a windshield washer pump, bottle and some very crude controls worth maybe 10 bucks. All of them varied the pump with the RPM and used various gimmicks such as "air temp" sensing to separate you from your dollars. You can do much better just by sensing airflow, computed fuel flow and metering H2O to the FUEL flow and simply varied the percentage until you are happy. ------------------------------ From: walter.kaufmann@xxx.ch (Walter Kaufmann) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:41:55 +0200 Subject: Re: Oval Shaped Valves Hoi Hans, kannst Du mir die ISBN-Nummer und den Titel vom Apfelbeckbuch geben? Gruss und Dank Walter ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 05:59:00 +0000 Subject: Water Injection for power? - -> article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead - -> of the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting - -> water (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The - -> H2O would flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally - -> exhasted) into mechanical power. Direct-to-cylinder cooling has been used on some large Diesels. Worked okay, as far as I know. "Six stroke" engines have also been built, with water injected after the exhaust stroke. The water flashes to steam, provides a little extra kick, and cools the cylinder. Either scheme requires a large supply of water, approximately as much by volume as the fuel supply, making such things awkward for motor vehicles, though it's no big deal in stationary installations. ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:15:33 -0700 Subject: Re: water injection; and methanol Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: RD Rick > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: water injection; and methanol > Date: Saturday, September 07, 1996 7:52 AM > > >... > >He also suggested that mixing up to 50% methanol with the water helped > >improved its volatility. > >Jim Steck > > Word of warning. I have read that methanol is very corrosive to metal > parts, while ethanol is not. I don't know if ethanol will work in that > application. > Pre - EPA, every good gadget-addict has an oil-mist vaporizor to provide upper engine and valve lubrication. This manifold vacuum operated glass tank sucked up a small "highly vaporized" mist thru a fish tank bubbler in the intake. You purchased the special lubricating oil for only $5 a pint, and blended it with "pure" water or if it was cold, a thin blend of windshield wiper fluid and water. And then there was water pump lubricant, only a buck fifty a bottle and guaranteed to blend with all coolants and lubricate your pump bearings. In both cases, the operating agent was plain old cutting oil - yep the white slushy stuff you see in every machine shop. Couple of tables spoons white stuff, some food coloring or if its the good stuff - just enuff antifreeze to give the pint of water this concoction was in a green coloring, a fancy yellow bottle and 10,000 % profit can be yours. Seriously, industrial strength meth has 15% petroleum to counter the corrosion problem. Since cutting oil is a water soluble lubricant and protectant, if you blended a couple tablespoons into your water/meth mix, you would greatly reduce the corrosion and you would get the benefits of a "highly vaporized upper cylinder lubricator" also When you read alcohol in automotive applications, replace it with methanol and you will be both historically and currently correct. The only time ethanol is considered is if you have no access to meth or you are co-operating with congress in supporting the farm lobby. Meth has higher octane, produces more power in REAL engines, is significantly cheaper and is much less polluting. ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Playing... On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? > > Cos what I've seen of them thats about it. You sure could, but you;d have to calibrate it to your engine and your FI. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:19:53 +-200 Subject: RE: Oval Shaped Valves Be interesting to see a few pictures... Mark - ---------- From: Hans Hintermaier[SMTP:HIHA@xxx.de] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 11:13 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Oval Shaped Valves Hi all, I own some books of "Apfelbeck", his philosophy was the "radial diametral" 4 valve head. His construction goes back to the '30th when he built up his first head for 500ccm singles. The last engines I know were prototypes for KTM and Rotax around '92. Between he made F2 4cyl. 2lit., BMW sidecar racing- and other engines. He also experimented with more than 4 valves, but his flowbench results for his radial-diametral head were much better than for any other concept. If anybody of you wants to construct a new head, :-) I can give you the book-titles or ISBN, or some GIF's of his latest KTM-head. They rebuilt an LC4 engine with it, it makes more than 90HP out of 500 ccm... There are also lots of easy theoretical and practical tips for every motor-screwer included. Sorry- only in german language, I think. Hans hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:23:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Ancient History >> Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I mean, >> I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, >> and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them; > >[snip] > >You better believe it: when driving from Dallas to memphis, speed range 70 mph >to 95 mph, I got 27.5 mpg. Most of the tankful was driving at 80mph. A friend >in a '95 Trans Am that made the trip with me had a best of 28.5 (his engine was >more broken in, mine was fresh at 2k miles). > When I asked this question, I was not impugning anyone's honor -- hope it wasn't taken that way. I just want the formula! (The best story I have is averaging ~80 MPH from CT to TX and averaging 24 mpg in '88 towncar ==> 302 with 3800 pounds. But that was not normal.) Tom ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:10:46 +-200 Subject: RE: Water Injection for power? Hey guys... did ya know that hover time of the Harrier Jump Jet (AV8b ?) = is limited by water, as needs to inject water to get the density up = enough to produce enough thrust to hover (remember that this engine has = no afterburners or anything. Just kinda interesting... wonder what their fuel injection system does = in the flame tubes? They must need to richen/lean out the flame (when = spinning up and down on shaft RPM)=20 Completely off track, and thinking out loud. Sorry! ;-) Mark - ---------- From: Dave Williams[SMTP:dave.williams@xxx.us] Sent: Monday, September 09, 1996 7:59 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Water Injection for power? - -> article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead - -> of the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting - -> water (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The - -> H2O would flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally - -> exhasted) into mechanical power. Direct-to-cylinder cooling has been used on some large Diesels. Worked okay, as far as I know. "Six stroke" engines have also been built, with water injected after the exhaust stroke. The water flashes to steam, provides a little extra kick, and cools the cylinder. Either scheme requires a large supply of water, approximately as much by volume as the fuel supply, making such things awkward for motor vehicles, though it's no big deal in stationary installations. =20 ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:15:56 +-200 Subject: RE: Oval Shaped Valves You what???????? Mark ;-) - ---------- From: Walter Kaufmann[SMTP:walter.kaufmann@xxx.ch] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 11:42 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Oval Shaped Valves Hoi Hans, kannst Du mir die ISBN-Nummer und den Titel vom Apfelbeckbuch geben? Gruss und Dank Walter ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:35:05 -0500 Subject: Re: Re Propane injectors >>> >>> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, >> >>Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >>really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. >> I questioned this too -- asked a diesel mechanic who said pressure was 1700 to 1800 with upper limit of 2700. Maybe above figure has one too many zeroes (I can tell you I used to work in very high pressure area of a chemical plant and the 27000 number is W-A-Y out of line!). Tom ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:42:06 -0500 Subject: re: Fuel Economy On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:26 est, RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: >X-Ceo_Options: Document > >begin 660 ceomail.msd >M/CY)9B!Y;W4@8VAO;W-E('1O(')U;B!A(#0P,"MC:60@96YG:6YE+"!T:&5N >M('1O('!R;V1U8V4@=&AE('-O2!F What's this ?? ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:04:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Playing... >Is ther any reason why I cant build my own mass meter wth some nichrome wire, and a foot of 6" drain pipe? > [ snip ] >Like, I think the Idea is: Keep the current constant, measure the voltage across to get that current, have another bit of wire as a reference, and an absolute air temp/ atmospheric pressure reading, and away you go? > Okay, can I speculate too?? I know that liquid and gas measurements have been made by using a heated wire (or thermocouple). The concept was to use two of them. One a reference and the other in the flow. Measure the temp of each and the difference is proportional to the flow. If the same current passes through both wires (or 'both' is actually the same wire), any error from heating current variation ought to be lessened. Bye-the-bye; to get a constant current, one would not want to measure the voltage across nichrome, as it changes resistance with temperature (e.g. air flow). The voltage you measure, with the current constant, would therefore be related to air flow. If you were to take two pieces of NiCr, say 1" long each (and very thin, say 30 AWG). Put one in the air flow and the other where it is cooled by only convection (where?). Wire them in series and measure the difference in the voltage dropped across each of them?? Tom ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > > From: Thor Johnson > > To: DIY EFI Maillist > > Subject: Water Injection for power? > > Date: Sunday, September 08, 1996 4:31 PM > > > > > > I just looked at the current issue of "Midnight Engineering," and saw an > > article that may be of interest. The author suggested that, instead of > > the usual fan/radiator/et al, the cylinders be cooled by injecting water > > (diesel style) during the latter part of the power stroke. The H2O would > > > flash into steam, thereby changing the heat (normally exhasted) into > > mechanical power. > > > Why bother? The British in their pre-war experiments with water injection > directly injected the water in a fine mist into the inlet of the mechanical > supercharger of the Rolls Royce engine powering the spitfire. At any > reasonable injection rate engine thermal loss's went down as the per cent > rate of water to fuel went up. If memory serves me correctly at about 30 > percent the engines water cooling was no longer a factor. Methyl Alcohol > was added in a small percentage as an antifreeze - tis no such thing as a > warm day at 30,000+ feet altitude. > I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up > linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, > + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. So I could inject water at the intake manifold without losing power while maintiang the cooling effect? Good to know, cuz I don't want to actually pull the engine to pieces. Slightly unrelated question: does anyone know how this would affect *heated* O2 sensors? Thanks! Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: more water injection OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed in with the gas in the tank? I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the deal? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:24:56 -0600 (EDT) Subject: Re: Water Injection for power? > > So I could inject water at the intake manifold without losing power > while maintiang the cooling effect? Good to know, cuz I don't want to > actually pull the engine to pieces. Slightly unrelated question: does > anyone know how this would affect *heated* O2 sensors? > > Thanks! > Thor Johnson > johnsont@xxx.edu > http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont > Should not be a problem. Complete combustion of hydrocarbons gives CO2 and H2O. Only problem I have seen is some special O2 sensors for measuring a/f have a limit on temp change rate and thus have time delays built into the electronics so that when the engine is started, the power is delayed to heater circuit of O2 sensor so any liquid water from condensation etc does not get on hot sensor and thus exceed is degC/time limits.Power is applied after about 30 sec delay. This is true of Bosch LA-2 a/f meter using LSM-11 sensor. Standard automotive sensors try to heat asap so can go to closed loop asap. Biggest area of current emmissions study is how to reduce early cold start emissions. Trying such things as phase change salt solutions to hold heat. Frank Parker ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:18:31 +-200 Subject: RE: Fuel Economy It's that start of a UU encoded file called CEOMAIL.MSD For those that are interested... UUEncode is this: Take 3 bytes lay it out as 24 bits chop 24 bits into 4 6 bit lumps treat each of those 6 bits as an ascii character. This way the data can be sent over any line, including 7 bit systems. Mark - ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@xxx.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 2:42 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: re: Fuel Economy On Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:12:26 est, RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au wrote: >X-Ceo_Options: Document > >begin 660 ceomail.msd >M/CY)9B!Y;W4@8VAO;W-E('1O(')U;B!A(#0P,"MC:60@96YG:6YE+"!T:&5N >M('1O('!R;V1U8V4@=&AE('-O2!F What's this ?? ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:21:42 +-200 Subject: RE: Ancient History Hey guys... I feel PROUD when I manage to thrash my car UNDER 20MPG... = to achive less that 25 MPG requires new tires at the end of the run! Its = a real shame only having 1.5 litres (but my body weight is so low I = still get performance enough to scare me down the little lanes). Mark - ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@xxx.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 2:23 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Ancient History >> Do these numbers really bother anyone? 12mpg highway for a 455? I = mean, >> I've read about 46-48mpg from a turbo v-6; 28-30mpg from 5.7L z/28's, >> and 31mpg from 5.0L mustangs. While I don't believe any of them;=20 > >[snip] > >You better believe it: when driving from Dallas to memphis, speed range = 70 mph >to 95 mph, I got 27.5 mpg. Most of the tankful was driving at 80mph. A = friend=20 >in a '95 Trans Am that made the trip with me had a best of 28.5 (his = engine was >more broken in, mine was fresh at 2k miles).=20 > When I asked this question, I was not impugning anyone's honor -- hope it wasn't taken that way. I just want the formula! (The best story I have is averaging ~80 MPH from CT to TX and averaging 24 mpg in '88 towncar =3D=3D> 302 with 3800 pounds. But that was not normal.) Tom ------------------------------ From: "Michael T. Kasimirsky" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: more water injection On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Dirk Wright wrote: > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > > I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with > added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that > you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas > in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under > certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need > for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the > deal? Gasoline is lighter than water, and hence "floats" on top of it. You fuel tank pick-up is located in the bottom of the tank. You add water to the tank and all you'll be injecting into the engine is water. Michael T. Kasimirsky ----> mtk@xxx.edu Days: Staff Engineer or mk4u@xxx.edu ASTM Test Monitoring Center Phi Gamma Delta, Nights: 1992 Suzuki GSX-R750 Pilot NRA Life Member, AMA Member 1991 Suzuki GSF400 Bandit Mechanic DoD #1848 ------------------------------ From: Jeff Deifik Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:46:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Electric vehicle , wrong list for this discussion, but I must Jerry Wills writes: >Folks, > One person is already doing some of what you would like. > >good acceleration , 0-60 in the 4 sec. range 7 sec range, or 4.5 sec range, see below. >motors drive all wheels directly Through a trans. Either FWD or RWD >regenerative braking > >for long distance a small trailer , just big enough for a stationary gas >generator, which yields 40ish mpg. > >the battery technology is the problem at the moment >The car started out as a honda, and still looks like it on the outside, >but not under the hood. The guy name is Alan ?????, our former sunracer >my know his last name and company, or I can find out. He was a consultant >to GM for a while. Email me directly if you must have more info. Jerry got most of his information from me. I have driven or been a passanger in three generations of Alan Coconni's cars. His company is called AC Propulsion. He designed and built the electronics and motors for the GM Impact as well as the Sunnyraycer. Genertaion 1 (after Impact) 100 kw honda crx. 0-60 7.8 seconds, top speed @90 mph, 131 miles on a charge (using EPA loop) @3000 lbs, FWD Generation 2 150kw (@xxx. 0-60 @6sec, top speed @90 mph, range @140 miles @3000lbs, FWD Generation 3 220hp, built on limited production sportscar chassis 0-60 @xxx.5sec, top speed @90mph, weight @2500lbs, RWD Gen 1 & 2 use a honda transmission, with only one gear present. Gen 3 uses an unknown transmission, with only one gear present, Gen 1 battery life 3k miles to 50% capacity. Gen 2 & 3 battery like @xxx. I used to sell his 1/2 used batteries... Charging time 1 hour minimum. Jeff turbo Deifik turbo@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: M HILL Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 16:04:16 GMT0BST Subject: Re: more water injection > Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:23:55 -0400 (EDT) > From: Dirk Wright > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: more water injection > Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > > I can understand the freezing bit in winter, which could be cured with > added alcohol of glycol, but if water injection is so good, it seems that > you could save yourself a bunch of hassle by just adding water to the gas > in the gas tank. Is it possible that you only want water injection under > certain circumstances, like WOT? If so, then I could understand the need > for dry gas and a separate water injection system. Otherwise, what's the > deal? > > > **************************************************************************** > Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov > "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 > "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House > **************************************************************************** > > I am led to believe that the reason you do not want water in the petrol tank is that water is heavier than petrol, and will therefore sit at the bottom of the tank and make it go rusty. You are unlikely to get the water mixed up with the petrol. I do not know much about the products used to remove water from the petrol tank, but I imagine they just make it all mix up together. Thus enabling it to be pumped out of the petrol tank. Martin ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:47:49 -0700 Subject: Re: more water injection Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: Dirk Wright > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: more water injection > Date: Tuesday, September 10, 1996 6:23 AM > > OK, here's a really dumb (but interesting to me) question: If water > injection is so great, why is water in the gas considered so bad? Why > bother with products like "dry gas" if water in the cylinders is a good > thing? Why do most engines run so bad (I think) when there's water mixed > in with the gas in the tank? > Simple chemistry. Water and gasoline do not mix - they blend. Let them sit for even a few seconds and they separate - remember the lava lamps - illustrates the separation perfectly. A pump drawing a blend would have totally unpredictable results. And since petrol floats on water, one would tend to pick up more water than gas and this would not make reliable power. Remember, water only works with EXCESS heat - and contributes no heat to the process. No heateee - no tickee - no shirtee.. Further, gasoline blends easily with air to form a combustible mixture. Water is far more reluctant to blend with air at STP, so it needs to be atomizing into a fine mist by pressure injection. Different fluids, different process's and storage. Think Nitrous Oxide. One would not doubt that vast increases in power are made on the bottle - but you don't toss it in the tank and get results. One respects the chemistry of each component and use's that to get results. What one is looking for is a correct mixture in the combustion chamber. Just because Oil and Vinegar taste great on salad does not mean that we store the blend together. ------------------------------ From: DAN FURGASON Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:02:32 MST Subject: Al Tubing Bender Last spring Dan Elsberg of Cornell made mention of a tubing bender he had designed and fabricated. He e-mailed me a discription and asked me to forward it to the list. Dan Elsberg wrote: Sorry it took me several months to get back to you about the tube bender. I was way busy during the school year, but have now graduated and can put down some basic directions. (I am no longer on the DIY-EFI list, but if you could forward this to the list, I would appreciate it.) The tube bender is basically the exact same thing as one of the small hand brake line benders. There needs to be a round mandril which fits half of the tube in it. The diameter of this mandril will define the diameter of the 'u's that you bend. We made this by rough cutting a piece of mild steel on the lathe. (Take a piece of round stock, chuck it up, cut in a semicircle gouge that is "one radius of the tubing that you want to bend" deep.) This should be close to the final round shape, but not any deeper. Then take a ball end mill of the same diameter as your tubing and put the mandril piece on a dividing head and finish cutting the semi-circle groove to the perfect shape. Make sure you run the mill at the slowest speed to begin with and go slowly. Once the tip starts cutting, you are asking everything to do some hard work-- things will wobble and make a lot of noise and smoke. Next we cut the mandril off from the excess length of stock. Then we drilled four holes in the mandril through the flat sides to fit the lever arm into and reamed one hole in the middle for the pivot/axle. The outside or smaller mandril was made from a half piece of tubing that was bent out a bit to fit around the aluminum to be bent. It was welded to a few pieces of plate to make a box shaped assembly that had room for a hole in order to attach it to the base plate of the bender. The next piece was a base plate (we used 1/2" thick steel). We drilled and reamed two holes in it for the pivots of the two mandril pieces. The spacing should be relatively accurate so that when the two mandrils fit together, there is a perfect circle (otherwise the aluminum will squish out the gap.) The outside mandril should actually meet the inside mandril at a point. One corner will be right against the inside circle and the part will trail off on a tangent. __ / \ _ ( () ) <----inside mandril (a circle) outside mandril--> | | \__/ | | |_| Top View (correct) _ __ | | / \ | |( () ) <----inside mandril (a circle) outside mandril--> |_| \__/ Top View (incorrect) These drawings are not to scale-- the inside mandril is much larger that the outside mandril. Finally you need to make something that will pull the tubing around the inside mandril as it is bent. On the hand benders this is made of several pieces of plate held together and pivots in and out of the plane of the u-bends. This will take a lot of force so make it beefy. This piece bolts to the inside mandril. The aluminum will have to be normalized to take it down to T0. I think that dillsburg or other folks sell tubing that is already soft, but we had to put our 6061-T6 pieces in an oven and treat them. (I don't remember the recipe, but you can look it up in a metals or heat treating handbook.) It is all just easier if you buy the right stuff to begin with. I have been told that the aluminum will actually time harden back up to somewhere between T0 and T6, but I don't know how long this takes or any details. Now assemble the parts on the base plate using round stock as the pivots/axles (we used 1" mild steel). Fashion yourself a lever arm that can drop into the holes drilled in the inside mandril (goes into two holes at a time). The lever should be about 6 feet long. Lube everything up with WD40 and place the aluminum tube in so that the part that pulls the tube around is lined flat against the outside mandril. The tube should stick about an inch past the end of the pulling part. Turn the inside mandril with the lever arm and it will pull the aluminum around and bend it as it goes. You will have to experiment with the exact placements of all the parts, because the aluminum is prone to locally buckling and flatening. Sorry that this may be a little hard to follow, but you really should buy one of the brake line benders to get an idea of how this really works. The whole thing took us about 2 weeks to manufacture and tune. There is also about 60 to 80 pounds worth of steel between the mandril, the base plate, and the scrap left on the shop floor. I mentioned this several months ago, but if anyone wants to purchase some U's we would be willing to figure out a reasonable price-- the shops we found who were willing to do it wanted some outrageous price for it. (Just found the email I sent out months ago: We got tired of the high prices and low availability of Aluminum u-bends so we made a mandril bender. It was a _lot_ of work. (about a week of machining and then another couple of days playing around with the technique.) Anyway if anyone needs 1-3/8"x0.058 we may be able to work something out that would be a lot cheaper than the estimates we got from various other sources (one wanted $275 to bend 6 semi-circles (180 degrees) including the labor and material). E-mail me directly if you want to talk about it. ) Good luck and happy machining, - --dan - -- Dan Elsberg dhe1@xxx.edu 203 Williams St. Apt. 1 277-9503 Ithaca, NY 14850 ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:20:39 -0700 Subject: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Is the O2 sensor affected by leaded gas or is it just the cat conv? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: more water injection On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, M HILL wrote: > > > I am led to believe that the reason you do not want water in the > petrol tank is that water is heavier than petrol, and will therefore > sit at the bottom of the tank and make it go rusty. You are unlikely > to get the water mixed up with the petrol. I do not know much about > the products used to remove water from the petrol tank, but I imagine > they just make it all mix up together. Thus enabling it to be pumped > out of the petrol tank. OK, assume that the tank is rust-proof (sealed on the inside), and that the water is mixed thoroughly with the gas using some type of alcohol, and that the fuel system can tolerate both the water and the alcohol, would this give you more power and/or economy? You could assume distilled water is used, also, if you wish. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: more water injection On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Michael T. Kasimirsky wrote: > > Gasoline is lighter than water, and hence "floats" on top of it. You > fuel tank pick-up is located in the bottom of the tank. You add water to > the tank and all you'll be injecting into the engine is water. OK, but what if you add enough alcohol to disperse the water into the gasoline? Would you get better performance? It has been recommended that some type of alcohol be added to the water in a water injection system, so why bother with the separate system and just mix it all up in the gas tank? I'm assuming that the type of alcohol used would be compatable with the fuel system. Is it just an issue of control over when the water is injected? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: more water injection On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > > Further, gasoline blends easily with air to form a combustible mixture. > Water is far more reluctant to blend with air at STP, so it needs to be > atomizing into a fine mist by pressure injection. Different fluids, > different > process's and storage. OK, what if we added alcohol to disperse the water into the gas, and the engine had fuel injection. The gas and the water would be atomized together. Would this give more power? The only reason I can see for using a separate system would be for control over exactly when the water was injected. But, how critical is the timing of the water injection? Assuming a constant water/gas ratio, in the above senario, more water/gas mixture would be injected during periods of high power, so more water would get in to the cylinders anyway. > > What one is looking for is a correct mixture in the combustion chamber. > Just because Oil and Vinegar taste great on salad does not mean that > we store the blend together. Um, we usually store them together when they are intended as a salad dressing.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #268 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".