DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 13 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 271 In this issue: Altitude Compensation Re: EFI332 home page water injection RE: Altitude Compensation MAP sensor Re: New subscriber Re: MAP sensor RE: Altitude Compensation Re: EFI332 home page RE: Altitude Compensation Re: MAP sensor Re: Injector Flow Variation Re: Altitude Compensation Re: Radial- Diametral Head RE: Altitude Compensation Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Re: diesel injector break pressure How to join the group? Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Re: How to join the group? Re: EFI332 home page Re[5]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Re: MAP sensor Re[2]: EFI332 home page Volumetric efficiency water injection Re: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 22:01:00 +0000 Subject: Altitude Compensation - -> From what I read and hear, the Air Flow sensor used in production - -> EFI's at best compensate for temp and density changes in the Speaking of which, does anyone have a voltage/CFM or voltage/grams-min curve for any of the Ford MAFs? I've been tinkering with one off a 5.0 Mustang. The hot-wire MAF is sensitive enough for the voltmeter to indicate when someone walks by the bench, but it's apparently very nonlinear. ------------------------------ From: pfontana@xxx.it (fontana pasquale) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 12:11:38 +0200 Subject: Re: EFI332 home page Hello Martin try this: http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ >Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have >been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. > >Martin > > ------------------------------ From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:46:00 +0000 Subject: water injection - -> Caterpillar is supposedly working with a guy named Gunnerman to - -> develop this "wonder fuel". I'll believe it when I see it. There is actually a fairly decent body of information on water emulsion fuels going back to the 1950s. Several SAE papers and some theses, anyway. Basically, the emulsions seem to have a small but favorable cost/power ratio compared to straight fuel - that is, if you had a 25% water emulsion, your power output would not drop a full 25%. Most emulsions are made by forcing the fuel and water through a fine mesh under pressure, where they will stay in emulsion for a few minutes, long enough to be carbureted or injected, anyway. It *does* work, though it's not really worth all the hassle, like turbo-compound engines. I don't know of any current or planned real world applications, though it'd likely be limited to stationary or marine stuff. At the other extreme you have the people who claim to have some sort of solvent that will let you mix gas and water together and get more power than straight gas alone, cleaner teeth, fresher breath, and as much studliness as you can handle. Various alcohols will let you do it, but you won't get that kind of results. Run away, run away.... ====dave.williams@xxx.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:21:25 +0000 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation >From: Mark Pitts > The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at altitude. > Sorry to go back to my model airplanes, but for the glider tugs (which ran 120cc petrol engines, with electronic ignition) we had to solder an arm on the end of the needle so that we could fit a ser > o and adjust mixture in flight, otherwise we lost so much power, we couldnt pull the glider any higher. And we are only talking 5000' Like a mile or so up! > At ground level the tugs would climb out at about 45 degrees, with anything on the back.. No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. (I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also richen with altitude. - --- David Parrish Future aviator. As soon as I finish building my plane. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:32:10 -0500 Subject: MAP sensor I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose a parts house), and how does it work? I have looked in recent posts and found that oOn Tue, 03 Sep 1996, Todd Knighton wrote: Motorola has a lot of data sheets on their MPX4250A, etc. line of pressure transducers we've been using. (Todd also noted in another post that he used a GM sensor that had an AC output.) On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, James Weiler wrote: Ford's EEC-IV system (speed density) utilizes a MAP sensor that also doubles as a Barometric sensor. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:39:35 -0500 Subject: Re: New subscriber >Hello all - I'm new to the group [ snip ] >Craig Eid >e-mail address ?? Craig, I tried 'both' e-mail addresses and was unsuccesful with either. Tell me how to reach you and I'll send you some stuff. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Matt Sale Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:30:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: MAP sensor > > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? > Sorry for the advertisement but: Try the junkyards. Most (All??) GM MAP sensors are supplied by DE. I believe the late model Toyota's use our Gen-2 sensor, which is much smaller than the old one. Sorry, don't have the pinout handy. - --- Matthew D. Sale, IC Development Engineer, Delco Electronics Corp. msale@xxx.com/~msale '69 Mustang 351W 5-spd (13.656@xxx. All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for those of Delco Electronics or General Motors. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:46 -0500 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation >>From: Mark Pitts > >> The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at altitude. [ SNIP ] > >No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to >sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly >identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not >alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. > >Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by >throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered >as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. > >(I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of >air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also >richen with altitude. > >--- >David Parrish what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- self) can survive at (oops, poor english). The term "lean out" in the apps above really means to supply less fuel. This is necessary since the air is less dense and therefore less O2. Seems to me you're trying to hold the A/F ratio essentially the same -- or at least know what it is to determine richer / leaner. So, makes sense to me that you always want to know how much O2 there is so you'll know how much petrol to mix with it. The velocity of the air flow (eg. carb) doesn't tell you this. So, when you go from sea level to the mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a few milliseconds after the fact) whether the mixture was near stoich or not), though it doesn't give direct O2 availability data either. Now, it's been a long time since my physics, and I have to go on what little reasoning powers I have left, but it seems to me that the quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, he could interpolate from TPS and the differential of BAP and MAP (i.e. the absolute pressure on the throttle opening). Then, assuming atmos pressure doesn't change very quickly, one's system could 'remember' the EGO's feedback reference point of stoich and extrapolate lean / rich from there. Now, if the ratio of O2 in the atmosphere really did change at different altitudes (hard to imagine) we would really be screwed. But, what do I know?? (It's been said before.) Tom ------------------------------ From: Brad Sheridan Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: EFI332 home page > > Hello Martin > > try this: > http://www.iris.swin.edu.au/~aden/efi332/ That gives me the same result as the last location. When I do a traceroute, it seems to make it all the way to the swin.edu.au, and then dies as soon as it gets there. This is the same traceroute result I got with the last address as well. Brad ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 11:50:03 +0000 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation > From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) > mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) > doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a Actually, MAP can. MAP is an absolute pressure, so as you go up, the manafold pressure will also drop without changing the throttle. Combine MAP with temperature and the engine's volumetric efficiency, you can get a pretty good idea about the actual mass flow of air. > quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume > of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, MAF will do it by itself. How much fuel you squirt is based squarely on the mass of oxygen in the cylinder and that's exactly what a MAF tells you. MAP+temp+VE+fancy math gives you about the same thing. - --- David Parrish I don't even want to think about humidity... ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:08:16 -0700 Subject: Re: MAP sensor Tom, Newark Electronics has the Motorola Sensors. They're not to be put in the engine compartment. They're not ruggedized. We've been putting them inside the Motronics unit inside the car and they've worked well. the MPX4250A is a 2.5 bar absolute sensor, so it's good to about 20psi and absolute vacuum. They make a MPX4100A, I think that's the number, for normally aspirated vehicles, never ordered that one. These are all temperature trimmed and compensated sensors so they aren't affected by different temps like most MAPs are. Have just played with GM's and Honda's MAPs and have just guessed at what's really going on, no data sheets available. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering tom cloud wrote: > > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? > > I have looked in recent posts and found that oOn Tue, 03 Sep 1996, Todd > Knighton wrote: Motorola has a lot of data sheets > on their MPX4250A, etc. line of pressure transducers we've been using. > (Todd also noted in another post that he used a GM sensor that had an > AC output.) > > On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, James Weiler wrote: Ford's EEC-IV > system (speed density) utilizes a MAP sensor that also doubles as a > Barometric sensor. ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:15:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Injector Flow Variation Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: tom cloud > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: RE: Injector Flow Variation > Date: Monday, September 09, 1996 6:44 AM > All things mechanical - there will be a flow variant - hopefully small. Bad things like detonation events occur first in the poorest mixture quality cylinder, thus the whole engine is limited by the weakest cylinder. SFI with only an oxygen sensor feedback loop adjusts based on an all cylinder composite oxygen reading. The next step is to use a quality industrial temperature measuring device (thermocouple, RTD's) to measure Exhaust Gas Temp at each individual port, and wire them so that rather than showing absolute temperature, the device's would show temperature differential's between cylinders. All things being closely approximate - (e.g. cylinder volume, port air flow, cooling capacity, etc.) the proximate cause of Exhaust Gas Temperature variation will be mixture variations induced by injector flow variations. Using the differential EGT data, each cylinders mixture could have corrections applied thereby finely tuning out all differences between cylinders and making more power and economy by operating closer to detonation limits without increased risk. Course, now I'll have to prove that EGT temperature is a dependent variable based on combustion mixture - ignore 80 years of A/C's watching EGT when adjusting mixtures - but oh well ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:38:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Altitude Compensation I do remember from some science class, way back in school, that the composition of the atmosphere does change, but as someone said earlier in this thread, minimally at low altitudes, where normal humans reside. And also in the other thread, the mechanical injection systems I've seen on airplanes, do have barometric compensation built in. Some cheaper systems on smaller planes might not, thus the pull lever for mixture trim. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:43:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Radial- Diametral Head Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > Hi head builders, > because of the big resonance for the radial- diametral head of > "Apfelbeck", I put the GIF images on the web. > http://www.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de/~hiha/gif/ Interesting, but I saw an even more interesting design at the SEMA show last year. It incorporated what looked like two camshafts, but they were also the ports and valves as well. They were basically ball valves, that opened and closed the port from the head, rotating at 1/4 crank speed I think. The shape of the opening in the ball valve determined the valve events. They had these things on a few 4 valve mercedes engines and had them passing emmissions, but with a 20% increase in overall power. The torque curves looked great as well. The only scary thing was the seat. Is was a spring loaded seat, for a good seal from the combustion chamber that rode on the rotary ball valve thingy. I could definately see those things getting torn up. But they "Said" that they had already run them in the 50,000 and 100,000 mile EPA durability tests and "got by" Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:52:42 -0700 Subject: RE: Altitude Compensation I thought that MAF stands for mass air flow, and that it measures the mass of the air volume passing thru it, not just the volume. The mass of the air is depends on many things, one of which is atmospheric pressure. If the O2 to other components in the air being measured is realitively the same at different atmospheric pressures the MAF value should compensate for altitude changes. But I'm just a novice at this stuff. me At 09:15 AM 9/12/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>From: Mark Pitts >> >>> The point is even tho' the density drops, if you compress that air to sea >level density, there is less oxygen in it, thus you need to lean out at >altitude. > > [ SNIP ] >> >>No, I don't think so. If you took air from 10K and compressed it to >>sea level, the ratios of the components would be identical or nearly >>identical. The reason aircraft have to lean at altitude is (if not >>alititude compensated) is lower air density and therefore lower O2. >> >>Mechanical injection systems vary fuel delivery pretty much by >>throttle position, so you have to manually reduce the fuel delivered >>as the pressure (and mass per volume) of air goes down. >> >>(I may be on thin ice here.) Carbs draw fuel based on the velocity of >>air flowing past the venturi, and not the actual mass, so they also >>richen with altitude. >> >>--- >>David Parrish > >what do i know ?? As I understand: the ratio of O2 and N2 are >the same at any altitude us puny homo saps (I know, speak for my- >self) can survive at (oops, poor english). > >The term "lean out" in the apps above really means to supply less fuel. >This is necessary since the air is less dense and therefore less O2. >Seems to me you're trying to hold the A/F ratio essentially the same -- >or at least know what it is to determine richer / leaner. So, makes >sense to me that you always want to know how much O2 there is so you'll >know how much petrol to mix with it. The velocity of the air flow >(eg. carb) doesn't tell you this. So, when you go from sea level to the >mountains, you have to change the jets. Barometric pressure (BAP / MAP) >doesn't tell you either. I would think the EGO would tell you (albeit a >few milliseconds after the fact) whether the mixture was near stoich or >not), though it doesn't give direct O2 availability data either. > >Now, it's been a long time since my physics, and I have to go on >what little reasoning powers I have left, but it seems to me that the >quantity of O2 available can be adequately determined from the volume >of air flow (MAF) and density (BAP or MAP). If one doesn't have MAF, >he could interpolate from TPS and the differential of BAP and MAP (i.e. >the absolute pressure on the throttle opening). Then, assuming atmos >pressure doesn't change very quickly, one's system could 'remember' the >EGO's feedback reference point of stoich and extrapolate lean / rich >from there. > >Now, if the ratio of O2 in the atmosphere really did change at different >altitudes (hard to imagine) we would really be screwed. > >But, what do I know?? (It's been said before.) > >Tom > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: John S Gwynne Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400 Subject: Re: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas - -------- |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone |>else remember this or am I just losing it? |> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? | |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up, |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't seen |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Doug Rorem Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:13:06 -0500 Subject: Re: diesel injector break pressure on VW diesels, the injectors typically break around 170 bar (~2500 psi) >>>> >Is there such a thing as an electronically controlled diesel injector? >>>> >(aka instead of the usual mechanical fuel pump distributor thing..) >>>> > >>>> Yes: >>>> >>>> But diesel injection needs around 25,000 psi of fuel pressure, so the >>>> injector is a plunger piston pump that is operated off a lobe of the cam >>>> shaft (twice as wide as the one that opens the valves). The electric >>>> solenoid is a bypass port that when ON blocks the outlet of the injector >>>> 'pump' and forces it into the cylinder. When OFF the flow returns to the >>>> fuel tank. >>> >>>Aaah, I see why "EFI diesels" are only recently appearing. Do they >>>really use 25000 PSI?? I thought it would only be a few hundred PSI. >>> >>>Craig. >>> >>> >>Yes, the pressure is that high. Some times it can get as high as 35000. >> >>David J. Doddek |pantera@xxx.com >>Owner SGD Electronics & Development Engr for Caterpillar |h 309 685-7965 >>Formula SAE Team Sidewinder 94-95 |w 309 578-2931 >>89 T-bird SC, 69 Fairlane w/SGD EFI |fx 217 428-4686 >>74 Pantera w/Electromotive Tec-II Twin turbos and Nitros | >>Hey, If you are going to go fast, go REEEAAL FAST. | >> - -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: iii@xxx.) Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:33 PDT Subject: How to join the group? Hi, I am interested in joining this mail group. How do I do this? I'm working on a small controller targeted to the automotive and robotics industries (HC16 based). Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:39:07 -0700 Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to have a problem connecting to it. - -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400] John S Gwynne wrote: jsg> -------- jsg> jsg> |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched jsg> |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone jsg> |>else remember this or am I just losing it? jsg> |> jsg> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? jsg> | jsg> |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up, jsg> |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't seen jsg> |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor jsg> |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I jsg> |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... jsg> |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... jsg> jsg> Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable jsg> through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the jsg> whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search jsg> engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) jsg> jsg> John S Gwynne jsg> Gwynne.1@xxx.edu jsg> _______________________________________________________________________________ jsg> T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y jsg> ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA jsg> Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 jsg> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- jsg> jsg> ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:34:44 -0700 Subject: Re: How to join the group? You have been added to the list... I hope your mailbox can handle it. ;-) - -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 96 14:33 PDT] iii@xxx.) wrote: iii> Hi, iii> iii> I am interested in joining this mail group. How do I do this? iii> iii> I'm working on a small controller targeted to the automotive and robotics iii> industries (HC16 based). iii> iii> Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | iii> WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | iii> 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | iii> Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | iii> Canada | iii> -------------------------------------------------------------------- iii> ------------------------------ From: Johnny Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 20:56:46 -0700 Subject: Re: EFI332 home page Here's what I get: Description: Microsoft Windows Sockets Version 1.1. System Status: Running on Windows 95. Version: 0101 0101 Max Sockets: 256 Local Hostname: allnight Local Address: 205.134.193.99 Official Name: www.iris.swin.edu.au IP Address: 136.186.89.23 PING www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23): 50 data bytes timed out timed out timed out PING Statistics for www.iris.swin.edu.au 3 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss TraceRoute www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23) timed out 1 177 177 205.134.193.253 cis0.everett.net 2 181 4 205.134.193.254 cis1.everett.net 3 * * timed out 4 208 27 204.71.144.33 cisco-1.nwrain.net 5 203 -5 204.70.52.17 border1-serial2-2.Seattle.mci.net 6 337 134 204.70.2.145 core1-fddi-0.Seattle.mci.net 7 * * timed out 8 240 -97 204.70.3.162 border2-fddi0-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net 9 219 -21 204.70.33.10 timed out 10 420 201 204.70.204.6 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net 11 428 8 139.130.249.226 timed out 12 470 42 139.130.249.214 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net 13 460 -10 139.130.239.228 vic.gw.au 14 431 -29 139.130.239.58 national.gw.au 15 434 3 139.130.38.2 vic2.gw.au 16 455 21 203.21.131.14 nis-rmi-swi.vrn.EDU.AU 17 467 12 203.21.131.58 swinburne-gw.vrn.EDU.AU 18 449 -18 136.186.1.60 tafe-e2.gw.swin.edu.au 19 * * timed out 20 * * timed out 21 * * timed out 22 * * timed out 23 * * timed out 24 * * timed out 25 * * timed out 26 * * timed out 27 * * timed out 28 * * timed out 29 * * timed out 30 * * timed out not reached I have never been able to connect to the "new" site. Anybody down under got a clue on this one? - -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:09 GMT0BST] M HILL wrote: EAXMJHI> Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have EAXMJHI> been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. EAXMJHI> EAXMJHI> Martin EAXMJHI> ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 13:17:06 Subject: Re[5]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Me too, I can get to it (I think) but it says there is nothing there. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 1:07 PM That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to have a problem connecting to it. - -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:57:22 -0400] John S Gwynne wrote: jsg> -------- jsg> jsg> |>out there that was supposed to be able to deal with lead. I have searched jsg> |>through all my old archives and can't find that old thread. Does anyone jsg> |>else remember this or am I just losing it? jsg> |> jsg> |>Darrell??? do you remember this thread? jsg> | jsg> |Yeah, I remember the thread, I think it was someone in NZ who brought it up , jsg> |since they still use leaded gas. It was someone whose name I haven't see n jsg> |around lately. All I remember was that they had found some stock sensor jsg> |that lasted longer than most others, but I don't recollect which it was. I jsg> |also recollect that they'd wake up if you used unleaded gas for a while... jsg> |I'll check through some of my old folders and see if anything shakes out... jsg> jsg> Come on guys.... that's why I made the archive searchable jsg> through http://efi332. Do a subject search for "lead" and the jsg> whole thread is there! It took several days to put the search jsg> engine and html stuff together.... USE IT! :) jsg> jsg> John S Gwynne jsg> Gwynne.1@xxx.edu jsg> ____________________________________________________________________________ ___ jsg> T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y jsg> ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA jsg> Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 jsg> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- jsg> jsg> ------------------------------ From: John S Gwynne Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:06:29 -0400 Subject: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas - -------- |That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to |have a problem connecting to it. Are we talking about the same web site? http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not Andrew's site. Andrew tried to mirror his site here, but apparently he has the same problem we have going the other way. If you really can not ftp or telnet to OSU's efi332, I would like to know about it. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: acazin@xxx.com Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:39:47 +0000 Subject: Re: MAP sensor > I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, > how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose > a parts house), and how does it work? The Ford EEC-IV MAP sensor is a good one. It is a "smart" sensor, with on-board signal processing and it has digital output, a "near" perfect square wave (49-51 % duty cycle). It is rugged and it lives well in the engine compartment and a long vacuum hose from the intake manifold does not bother it. Square wave output makes it easy to process. Output frequency is from about 159 Hz at 0 in. vacuum (key ON, engine OFF or wide open throttle, same as baro pressure output) to around 102 Hz at 21 in. vacuum (idle). Frequency vs. vacuum output is pretty linear for a good sensor. Alex Cazin Alzec Automotive Enginnering Ltd. ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 14:00:47 Subject: Re[2]: EFI332 home page After checking with our admin manager, we can reach Swin.edu, but we don't get a reply. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: EFI332 home page Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 1:43 PM Here's what I get: Description: Microsoft Windows Sockets Version 1.1. System Status: Running on Windows 95. Version: 0101 0101 Max Sockets: 256 Local Hostname: allnight Local Address: 205.134.193.99 Official Name: www.iris.swin.edu.au IP Address: 136.186.89.23 PING www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23): 50 data bytes timed out timed out timed out PING Statistics for www.iris.swin.edu.au 3 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss TraceRoute www.iris.swin.edu.au (136.186.89.23) timed out 1 177 177 205.134.193.253 cis0.everett.net 2 181 4 205.134.193.254 cis1.everett.net 3 * * timed out 4 208 27 204.71.144.33 cisco-1.nwrain.net 5 203 -5 204.70.52.17 border1-serial2-2.Seattle.mci.net 6 337 134 204.70.2.145 core1-fddi-0.Seattle.mci.net 7 * * timed out 8 240 -97 204.70.3.162 border2-fddi0-0.SanFrancisco.mci.net 9 219 -21 204.70.33.10 timed out 10 420 201 204.70.204.6 telstra.SanFrancisco.mci.net 11 428 8 139.130.249.226 timed out 12 470 42 139.130.249.214 Hssi6-0.lon-core1.Melbourne.telstra.net 13 460 -10 139.130.239.228 vic.gw.au 14 431 -29 139.130.239.58 national.gw.au 15 434 3 139.130.38.2 vic2.gw.au 16 455 21 203.21.131.14 nis-rmi-swi.vrn.EDU.AU 17 467 12 203.21.131.58 swinburne-gw.vrn.EDU.AU 18 449 -18 136.186.1.60 tafe-e2.gw.swin.edu.au 19 * * timed out 20 * * timed out 21 * * timed out 22 * * timed out 23 * * timed out 24 * * timed out 25 * * timed out 26 * * timed out 27 * * timed out 28 * * timed out 29 * * timed out 30 * * timed out not reached I have never been able to connect to the "new" site. Anybody down under got a clue on this one? - -j- At [Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:09 GMT0BST] M HILL wrote: EAXMJHI> Has something happened to the server for the efi332 homepage? I have EAXMJHI> been trying to get there for the last few days with no success. EAXMJHI> EAXMJHI> Martin EAXMJHI> ------------------------------ From: Johan Rodling Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:01:46 +0100 Subject: Volumetric efficiency Can some give me a hint about VE, what it is and how to calculate it. Since it's involved in some calculations regarding MAF etc, I just need to know. Thank's for all the help /JR Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR '74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) - ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@xxx.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 ------------------------------ From: Jim Steck <72614.557@xxx.COM> Date: 13 Sep 96 02:55:38 EDT Subject: water injection >>I Remember two relevant curves - holding fuel constant, power went up >>linearly with water on a percent by percent basis. 100% fuel 10% water, >> + 10% power etc. until a practical limit of about 50% was reached. >> >>Holding power constant, each percent of water displaced a percent of >>fuel until about a 50 50 ratio was reached. > So if I went out to my car and fed my 455ci engine a 50/50 mix of water/ > fuel I'd get the same power? I have a hard time believing this at full throttle > plus I cant afford that much water :(, but will it work for part throttle, > ie cruising, speeds? I think I can get around the mineral buildups with > a weekly trip to the track w/ high octane gas..... If you're remembering Ricardo's curves, you've got the power part right, but manifold pressure was a variable in his experiment. The curve plotted power at the manifold pressure that resulted in the onset of detonation. First he increased the amount of excess fuel to the point of maximum usefulness, then he started adding water and found that he could reduce the amount of excess fuel (beyond stoicometric) roughly equal to the amount of water that was added without affecting the results . . . so by increasing the amount of water, he was able to increase the manifold pressure . . . which increased horsepower. It is not the injection of water that increased horsepower, but the increased resistance to detonation which allowed higher manifold pressures to be used. The full description of his results can be found in the fourth edition of Sir Henry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion Engine" pages 165-171. (only in the fourth edition) Jim Steck AutoComponenti ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 15:26:47 Subject: Re: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Sorry John, clarification. It is Andrew's site that is un-reachable, yours works fine. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: archive search; was Re[2]: Re[2]: O2 Sensor-Leaded gas Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/13/96 2:36 PM - -------- |That's great for those that can get to the web site. I still seem to |have a problem connecting to it. Are we talking about the same web site? http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu Not Andrew's site. Andrew tried to mirror his site here, but apparently he has the same problem we have going the other way. If you really can not ftp or telnet to OSU's efi332, I would like to know about it. John S Gwynne Gwynne.1@xxx.edu _______________________________________________________________________________ T h e O h i o - S t a t e U n i v e r s i t y ElectroScience Laboratory, 1320 Kinnear Road, Columbus, Ohio 43212, USA Telephone: (614) 292-7981 * Fax: (614) 292-7297 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #271 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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