DIY_EFI Digest Monday, 16 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 275 In this issue: Re: Math Question Re: water injection Re: steam! Re: steam! Re: Timing - again Re: steam! Re: Mail Delivery Failure. Re: Timing - again re: Math Question Re: steam! Re: Timing - again Re: Timing - again, ceramic Re: Math Question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 06:49:00 +0000 Subject: Re: Math Question - -> If steam engines are so great, why were they replaced with diesels? Because if the operator of a steam engine were stupid enough he could blow it up, greatly annoying the owner and any bystanders. It's pretty hard to do that with a Diesel. Steam prime movers are pretty much limited to stationary turbines now, but they're still pretty important. There's a 99.99% chance the electricity you're using to read this message was generated by a steam engine, whether the heat source was burning coal or nuclear fission. ====dave.williams@xxx.us========================DoD#978======= can you help me...help me get out of this place?...slow sedation... ain't my style, ain't my pace...giving me a number...NINE, SEVEN, EIGHT ==5.0 RX7 -> Tyrannosaurus RX! == SAE '82 == Denizens of Doom M/C '92== ------------------------------ From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:08:06 +0000 Subject: Re: water injection > >The full description of his results can be found in the fourth > >edition of Sir Henry Ricardo's "The High Speed Internal Combustion > >Engine" pages 165-171. (only in the fourth edition) > > > Someone (is it you) keeps quoting this book and I can't seem to find > it. I've looked everywhere in Orlando, Fl with no luck. Any ideas? > Arnaldo E. Keep care with this book, if you find one! Many theoretics are out of order today. e.g. "Inlet valve must open after the piston started moving down. The inflowing air must be succed into the cylinder" (my own re-translation into english) That was in 1926, and a one liter racing-engine had about 50HP ( without compressor) Today engines have both vales wide open in DTC Regards Hans hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:38:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: steam! At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's >been thru the engine?.... > I heard of a guy locally that put a outboard motor in a ups like truck with >a homemade rotary valve and "modern" boiler(this was in the mid 70's) There >were >several little problems, but one of them was to much power. He hooked the crank >direct to the driveline, no tranny. You had to be careful with the throttle >because >it had a tendency to fry the 4 rear tires... >Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. Anyhow suffice it to say that 1200psi >anything in a vehicle is going to have a real rough time with the market, and >govt.'s. Hi Tom, I'm a super critical power plant worker (761 mega watt of net generation using 3,600psi steam at 1,005 F). I have thought about this same concept. A simple surface condenser (air cooled radiator) would be able to condense the vapor back to water (plant folks call it condensate). You would need a big one in my opinion, because of the other hot gases in the exhaust stream. If you could seperate the water vapor from the uncondensable exhaust gases, before going to the surface condenser, you could use a smaller unit. Now, let's say you reclaim each and every drop of water. You've got another technical tid bit to overcome. You will have to purify the condensate before you put it back into your piston turbine or engine. Welcome to the un-glamorous world of water purififation! In any steam plant, water purification is the single most inportant item. Bad water/steam quality has caused more high dollar damage to steam and water equipment than any thing else, period! Yea, yea... I now some real smart person is saying "We'll just put one of them there real fine filters in line and call it fixed." It's not just the undissolved solids that will have to be removed. MOST of the dissolved solids will have to go also. "Filters" that remove dissolved solids are called Reverse Osmossis units and they cost much more than regular filter systems. And of course, there are de-ionization systems that will do the same. As one DIYer said, early attempts of this have lead to chemically fouled engines. Cleaning the water isn't impossible. It just adds to the technical complexity (cost) of the steam engine. Our water treatment plant is our largest cost in our operation and mainteance budget. Keep in mind that we reuse most of our water. I've been within a 20 feet of leaking super critical steam, you would recieve severe heat burns long before you got near enough to be cut by the steam. Also, steam leaking under high pressure and temperature gives off it's own audible warning, like a 100' cobra. This still might not be fool proof. I'm fairly certain that supercritical steam has no place in the automotive market, a 100-300psi system might be feasable. Think about this, a turbine connected between the rear axle and tranny (to assist the engine). Hot water from the engine is routed to water jacketed exhaust manifolds for 'super heating'. This steam is then routed to the drive shaft turbine. Low pressure steam leaves the turbine and enters the radiator or back to the engine to be condensed or heated again. And, don't forget the water purification unit right before the turbine. I'm sure there is a simple reason why this will not work, besides cost. I don't know it. Let's see what the thermodynamic experts say. GMD ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: steam! At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's >been thru the engine?.... > I heard of a guy locally that put a outboard motor in a ups like truck with >a homemade rotary valve and "modern" boiler(this was in the mid 70's) There >were >several little problems, but one of them was to much power. He hooked the crank >direct to the driveline, no tranny. You had to be careful with the throttle >because >it had a tendency to fry the 4 rear tires... >Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. Anyhow suffice it to say that 1200psi >anything in a vehicle is going to have a real rough time with the market, and >govt.'s. Hi Tom, I'm a super critical power plant worker (761 mega watt of net generation using 3,600psi steam at 1,005 F). I have thought about this same concept. A simple surface condenser (air cooled radiator) would be able to condense the vapor back to water (plant folks call it condensate). You would need a big one in my opinion, because of the other hot gases in the exhaust stream. If you could seperate the water vapor from the uncondensable exhaust gases, before going to the surface condenser, you could use a smaller unit. Now, let's say you reclaim each and every drop of water. You've got another technical tid bit to overcome. You will have to purify the condensate before you put it back into your piston turbine or engine. Welcome to the un-glamorous world of water purififation! In any steam plant, water purification is the single most inportant item. Bad water/steam quality has caused more high dollar damage to steam and water equipment than any thing else, period! Yea, yea... I now some real smart person is saying "We'll just put one of them there real fine filters in line and call it fixed." It's not just the undissolved solids that will have to be removed. MOST of the dissolved solids will have to go also. "Filters" that remove dissolved solids are called Reverse Osmossis units and they cost much more than regular filter systems. And of course, there are de-ionization systems that will do the same. As one DIYer said, early attempts of this have lead to chemically fouled engines. Cleaning the water isn't impossible. It just adds to the technical complexity (cost) of the steam engine. Our water treatment plant is our largest cost in our operation and mainteance budget. Keep in mind that we reuse most of our water. I've been within a 20 feet of leaking super critical steam, you would recieve severe heat burns long before you got near enough to be cut by the steam. Also, steam leaking under high pressure and temperature gives off it's own audible warning, like a 100' cobra. This still might not be fool proof. I'm fairly certain that supercritical steam has no place in the automotive market, a 100-300psi system might be feasable. Think about this, a turbine connected between the rear axle and tranny (to assist the engine). Hot water from the engine is routed to water jacketed exhaust manifolds for 'super heating'. This steam is then routed to the drive shaft turbine. Low pressure steam leaves the turbine and enters the radiator or back to the engine to be condensed or heated again. And, don't forget the water purification unit right before the turbine. I'm sure there is a simple reason why this will not work, besides cost. I don't know it. Let's see what the thermodynamic experts say. GMD ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:16:20 +0000 Subject: Re: Timing - again Talltom, Yes, I've seen the same thing, max power prior to detonation. Though this was typically on very crappy cylinder heads. The one that really comes to mind is a 1.8L 4 cylinder 914 engine my brother had. You could wing the distributor all the way around and never get that damned thing to knock. So there was definately a peak power point prior to detonation. One other example I found was on a racing 911 engine that had a very poorly designed piston. 911 heads are semi-hemispherical in shape, and this particular engine had Cosworth pistons in it, running about 11/1 compression ratio. The piston shape shrouded the spark plug, as well as created a ring of unburnt gasses at the base of the the combustion chamber becuase the quench area was up the piston a ways and left this ring open. This engine wanted about 37 - 42 degrees timing to produce peak power, but would run all the way to about 45 degrees with the power falling off prior to detonation. This engine was torn down, the pistons reshaped and reassembled. Peak power now occurred at about 32 - 35 degrees peak with detonation onset at 37 degrees. The power went up 30 hp, even though we had effectively lowered the compression ratio from 11/1 to 9/1 by reshaping the crown of the piston. Though the better shape obviously worked a bit better. Our typical engines now are flat top pistons in a semi-hemispherical combustion chamber, running 7.5 to 8.5 / 1 compression ratio up to 1.4 bar (20 psi) boost giving us an effective compression ratio in the 18-20/1 range. Running twin-plug on these engines requires only 18 degrees advance on pump fuel for peak power. 20 degrees knocks and destroys engines. This combustion chamber works very effectively in this configuration, though not very well in a high compression ratio, normally aspirated setup. Point is, and I think Ed would agree with me, is that with all things properly setup, knock and peak power will be very close to one another. Though with poor combustion chamber design, like in a 15/1 compression ratio Winston cup motor that deals with tiny little restricters. Knock, power, and timing get very different. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering > Ed and Todd both described scenarios designed to set timing to avoid > knock. I've maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock > and are best timed by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe > series Fords come to mind) suggests that power goes down significantly before > knock, and frequently is accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a > great extent, the latest Circle track Magazine has dyno tests on the latest > Ford heads that show that timing is best at some point well behind the knock > point. I manintain that much bigger differences than show here are available > in the real world.(on track) Having blown engs using the knock method, it > leaves me a little less than impressed. It still seems that the trick is > finding the sweet spot, with knock only useful for a message telling you > which way to go, and that you need to go a ways. ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:46:38 -0700 Subject: Re: steam! Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: steam! > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 11:59 PM > > > Allright! Anybody got any good ideas about how to reclaim the water when it's > been thru the engine?(Water isn't as plentyful as it used to be) Short of making > a deal with wppss(Another conceptually and financially bankrupt govt. - > washington public power supply system.) on a unused cooling tower that is.? > If you are truly interested in steam engines, the late 40's Americans seem to represent the height of the technology. The south Africans used condensers and recycled the water on some of their steam engines. On many tender mounted booster engines the low pressure exhaust steam was vented directly back into the water supply. With a steam piston engine, transmissions are totally useless. Cut of steam = parked, stopped - no need to idle. Move valve to "forward", go forward. Move valve to reverse, go backwards. Change direction by changing how steam admitted. RPM limit is the destruction limit of engine. Torque limit is by PSI and size of piston. Think of how small loco pistons were in comparison to the 10,000 plus ton loads they sometimes carried. Also, road locomotives were almost universally limited to 300 PSI or less. What you will have is the problems of external combustion and water recycling to have sufficient range. Railroads had water towers at frequent intervals to avoid carrying more than a couple of hundred tons of water and coal at a time. If they told you about 1200 PSI steam and the power from it, remember that it is made at half the temperature reached in an IC engine. For the skeptics, remember - 1cc of liquid water state changed to vapor (boiled) makes about 1800 cc of vapor. Not a bad little expansion ration. What I am tying to do is first build a self tuning controllable EFI for petrol fuels and then, inject a precisely metered amount of additional H2O to get the power of steam from the excess heat and avoid all the external combustion hassles. No it would not be as efficient as an external combustion engine, but it would be far simpler and I believe could develope a lot more power than the same amount of fuel in a straight IC engine. ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Thigpen" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:39:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure. I have been reading all of the correspondence on this list for several months now. I can't even begin to describe all that I have learned about DIY_FI. I continually look to this list to learn more about all of the topics. Unfortunately, my field of study in college was Mechanical Engineering which has made me somewhat illiterate in the world of electronics. I am continually trying to learn more about electronics, however, I am still quite the amateur. I am looking to create a measurement device that is LCD and is virtually a multimeter. I have a 280ZX Turbo that has the stock Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection in it. I am planning on modifying it fairly extensively, but I would like to retain the stock FI system. I need this measuring device to display up to 6 different signals including Inlet Air Temp, Head Temp, A/F ratio, boost pressure, and fuel pressure, water temp etc. I know that I will have to calibrate these readings for each sensor. Is there an A/D converter that would handle this many input signals (possibly a switching type system)??? I would also like the unit to be programmable to read the proper units for each measurement. It can read each signal one at a time. I don't need to see all of them at once. Can anyone recommend what components I should use and how I should assemble such a unit??? Like I said, I am pretty ignorant to electronic circuits beyond the basics. Can someone please help? I want to be able to tune without destroying engine parts. Thanks in advance. Chuck Thigpen ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Timing - again On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, talltom wrote: I manintain that much bigger > differences than show here are available in the real world.(on track) Having > blown > engs using the knock method, it leaves me a little less than impressed. It > still > seems that the trick is finding the sweet spot, with knock only useful for a > message > telling you which way to go, and that you need to go a ways. What about the technique of using a vacuum gauge to determine optimum timing? On my old 914, that's what I use, and it jibes with the crank markings (which are really hard to see, hence the alternative method). Briefly, the method is to connect a vacuum gauge and adjust the timing at idle until a maximum reading is found on the gauge, then stop. If you continue to turn the distributor, you'll find that there's a plateau in the reading. I was told that the best timing was just when the plateau was reached. Seems to work for me. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:06:14 est Subject: re: Math Question >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. (ie the knock limit) >Do you think that catapilar and others are trying to invent a cheaper >fuel? Not f___ng likely. What they want is a more powerful engine >without increasing the size and complexity of the current production >engines. As far as I have read, catapillar are working on the naptha/water emulsion fuel in diesel engines as a way of overcoming it's archilles heel, which is high NOx emissions caused by high combustion pressures. Andrew Rabbitt (remember the thermodynamics...) ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: steam! At 11:59 PM 9/14/96 -0700, you wrote: > Superheated steam(1200psi) in the case of a ruptured pipe can be invisible, >and if you happen to walk by can cut your leg off without warning so they tell >me at the local steam generating plant. At least it'd cauterize the wound at the same time... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 20:10:05 -0700 Subject: Re: Timing - again Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Timing - again > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 12:30 PM > > ve > maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock and are > best timed > by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe series Fords come to mind) > suggests that power goes down significantly before knock, and frequently is > accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a great extent, the latest Some one will definitely correct me, but as I understand it, you want to light the fire before top dead center just enuff to make the maxium pressure thru out the entire power stroke. Too early and some of the pressure slows the piston down on the compression stroke. Too too early and knock - drive the piston backwards. Vizard and other current writers says ceramic coating pistons, valves and chambers greatly reduces knock and ping. Micro Coats of Santa Rosa, a leading coater says works great RETARD timing 3 to 4 degrees after coating to make optium power (10% increases not unrealistic). WTF - if optium power is just before destruction limit, and ceramics move that up the advance, why do you make better power at less advance? Maybe better combustion, flame front propagation, etc cause the pressure to build faster. Nah - just f___ng magic. ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Sun, 15 Sep 96 23:09:21 PDT Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic RE: ceramic surfaces The ceramic coating keeps more of the heat in the gasses through the expansion cycle and more energy is extracted from it. The knock and dentonation improvement is also the result of the insulating properties of the ceramic. During the expansion cycle the surface of the insulation will be hotter than bare iron or aluminum would be in similar conditions. There is less condensation of fuel and combustion products on the head and piston, therefor less carbon buildup and hot spots to cause problems during the compression cycle. The timing can be retarded because the insulated surfaces cause less heat to be absorbed by the head and piston surfaces. The flame front travels faster and probably initiates with greater precision. - ---------------Original Message--------------- Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: talltom > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Timing - again > Date: Saturday, September 14, 1996 12:30 PM > > ve > maintained that some combustion chambers aren't inclined to knock and are > best timed > by power. My expierience with these(Fiat and some fe series Fords come to mind) > suggests that power goes down significantly before knock, and frequently is > accompanied by surging. While it doesn't show to a great extent, the latest Some one will definitely correct me, but as I understand it, you want to light the fire before top dead center just enuff to make the maxium pressure thru out the entire power stroke. Too early and some of the pressure slows the piston down on the compression stroke. Too too early and knock - drive the piston backwards. Vizard and other current writers says ceramic coating pistons, valves and chambers greatly reduces knock and ping. Micro Coats of Santa Rosa, a leading coater says works great RETARD timing 3 to 4 degrees after coating to make optium power (10% increases not unrealistic). WTF - - if optium power is just before destruction limit, and ceramics move that up the advance, why do you make better power at less advance? Maybe better combustion, flame front propagation, etc cause the pressure to build faster. Nah - just f___ng magic. - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 09/15/96 23:09:21 ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:02:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Math Question Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: re: Math Question > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM > > > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. > > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. > (ie the knock limit) > > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, convert between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature - - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little teeny tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber - as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any of that wasted heat might get converted to power. Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #275 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".