DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 17 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 276 In this issue: D-jet part #s Re: Help tuning Haltech E6 (fwd) test message Re: Timing - again, ceramic Spark plug ionisation Re: Mail Delivery Failure aka digital dashboard test... ignore Re: Mail Delivery Failure. Re: Timing - again, ceramic Dyno Stuff Why run it hot? RE: Why run it hot? Re: Radial-Diametral Head Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? GM Map Sensor Re: Radial-Diametral Head Re: Radial-Diametral Head Injector list RE: MAP sensor RE: Math Question Off limits Re: Radial-Diametral Head See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: wrm@xxx.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:16:08 +0200 Subject: D-jet part #s Hi all TallTom asks >Ps. I got another bosch d brain brain and it works.(I'm back to a v8 now!) >Can anybody tell me the difference between bosch #0 280 002 013(original) and >the only thing I could get to replace it #0 280 002 005? Unfortunately I don't have the MB cross references, only the VW, what I can tell you is that (Bosch part #) 0 280 002 005 has a Bosch exchange code (whatever that is) of CU36X, which matches MB part # 000 545 2632, while 013 has an exchange code of CU38X, matching MB part # 000 545 7932 and 000 545 8032. So they're not the same, but I can't tell you which cars they match. Try to get hold of the bosch 'Gasoline Fuel Injection Automotive Products' catalog, Weatherly 600 catalog no 221109. I only have parts of it. W - -- Wouter de Waal Phone : +27 21 683 5490 Development Engineer Fax : +27 21 683 5435 CCII Systems Kenilworth, South Africa ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Pronk Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:49:12 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Help tuning Haltech E6 (fwd) This is a forward originating from Jeremy Pronk who is having some trouble recieving the list at his site. Please send all responses you might have to his efi question to him directly. Thanks - -j- On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Johnny wrote: > You are on the list alright. Make sure you are sending your posts to: > diy_efi@xxx.edu > > To see a roster of list members, send mail to: > majordomo@xxx.edu and put; > who diy_efi > in the body of the message. You will see your name on the list. > If you have further difficulties, send mail to me. I sent the mail to that correct address twice, but it never came back to me (and no one complained about multiple posts?). Maybe you could answer a quick question. I have a 1.5ltr boxer motor converted to haltech efi. I am using a function called quickmap to make a approximate fuel map, but it needs two injector values, injector open time at idle, and injector open time at full power. I put in 1.5ms and 6ms, does that sound about right? The engine seems to idle abnormally, and stays and takes about 5-10secs to come back down to idle again if you give the pedal a pump. I think I will have to fiddle around with it a little more. regards, Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA '69 510 4dr (for sale!) '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) ------------------------------ From: Jeremy Pronk Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 20:29:16 +1000 (EST) Subject: test message testing, testing... Jeremy, Sydney AUSTRALIA '69 510 4dr (for sale!) '83 AlfaSud Ti (Haltech E6 EFI) ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 07:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 jac@xxx.us wrote: > RE: ceramic surfaces > > The ceramic coating keeps more of the heat in the gasses > through the expansion cycle and more energy is extracted > from it. Yeah, ceramics are a good way to keep the exhaust gases hot and the heads and pistons cool. In a book I have called "Air Cooled Motor Engines", the author talks about how they tried installing a stainless steel shield in the exhaust port to help keep the heads cooler. But, since the exhaust gas was now hotter, the exhaust valve ran hotter, too. This can be a real problem in air cooled engines. We can expand on this idea and note that any technique (including ThermoTec header wrap tape and Jet Hot Coating) that "keeps the heat in the pipe" will make the exhaust valves run hotter, thus shortening thier life. A solution for this is to get the exhaust valves Jet Hot Coated also, and/or use sodium-cooled exhaust valves. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: M HILL Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:05:02 GMT0BST Subject: Spark plug ionisation I am starting to do some work on looking at spark plug ionisation for measuring instability in engines running at very lean AFRs. I was just wondering if anybody else had done any work in this field. If so, what sensors were used for measuring the ionisation currents. The system I am looking at is going to use a second spark at around 15degrees after TDC and use a transient suppressor and capacitor on the secondary of the coil to store voltage for measuring ionisation. Martin. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:13:09 -0500 Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure aka digital dashboard [ snip ] > I am looking to create a measurement device that is LCD and > is virtually a multimeter. I have a 280ZX Turbo that has the > stock Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection in it. I am planning on > modifying it fairly extensively, but I would like to retain the > stock FI system. I need this measuring device to display > up to 6 different signals including Inlet Air Temp, Head Temp, > A/F ratio, boost pressure, and fuel pressure, water temp etc. Look in Radio-Electronics, July, 1990 for an article on building a digital dashboard. I personally like the Intersil ICL-7106, ICL-7116 chips. They are 40-pin, but require a minimal amount of external components and drive the LCD (or LED -- see ICL-7107 or 7117) display directly. Hosfelt Electronics (800-524-6464) has these chips already on a circuit board with the display for about $16. The circuit is the standard circuit described from Intersil, and is a differential input. It can be wired to take 200 mV to 20 volts (of course an op-amp can be wired to amplify lower voltages and resistor attenuators can be built to handle larger) and can be powered from the car battery, but probably should have a resistor-zener or 7809 3-terminal regulator to protect it, as it's max rated supply voltage is 15 volts. The sensors and scaling their outputs to the DPM are another problem. As long as the outputs are linear, simple op-amp circuits will suffice (LM-324 is a quad op-amp and allows single supply operation). ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:26:48 -0700 Subject: test... ignore test - -j- ------------------------------ From: iii@xxx.) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 09:28 PDT Subject: Re: Mail Delivery Failure. > Can anyone recommend what components I should use and how > I should assemble such a unit??? Like I said, I am pretty ignorant > to electronic circuits beyond the basics. Can someone please help? > I want to be able to tune without destroying engine parts. Thanks > in advance. > > Chuck Thigpen Chuck, There is a very good electronics book on the market called "THE ART OF ELECTRONICS" it covers all types of electronics and has lots of example circuits. It can be hard to find some times, but any good book store should be able to bring it in. Wade Barnes, Electronics Tech. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- MC68HC16 Embedded Controllers and Software Development Tools | WebPg http://www.islandnet.com/~iii | - -------------------------------------------------------------------- Intec Inoventures Inc. Phone 604-721-5150 | 2751 Arbutus Road Fax 721-4191 | Victoria BC V8N 5X7 | Canada | - -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:23:18 -0700 Subject: Re: Timing - again, ceramic > Yeah, ceramics are a good way to keep the exhaust gases hot and the heads > and pistons cool. In a book I have called "Air Cooled Motor Engines", the > author talks about how they tried installing a stainless steel shield in > the exhaust port to help keep the heads cooler. But, since the exhaust > gas was now hotter, the exhaust valve ran hotter, too. This can be a real > problem in air cooled engines. We can expand on this idea and note that > any technique (including ThermoTec header wrap tape and Jet Hot Coating) > that "keeps the heat in the pipe" will make the exhaust valves run > hotter, thus shortening thier life. A solution for this is to get the > exhaust valves Jet Hot Coated also, and/or use sodium-cooled exhaust > valves. Beware of Ceramics!!! Especially on internal engine parts, i.e. pistons, combustion chambers, valves, exhaust ports. In 1989, Porsche decided to put a ceramic insert in the exhaust ports of the 911's. Works O.K. on Normally aspirated cars. When turbocharged, however, they tend to disentigrate and blow out, subsequently destroying turbine blades. Piston tops coated with ceramic sound great, but on Air-cooled's where expansion is seemingly twice that of watercooled's, they've been having a lot of fun trying to keep the stuff on. Again, on turbocharged engines, the stuff coming out the exhaust port isn't just going into the atmosphere. It destroys things. Coating headers as well tends to make the material run much hotter, thus disintegrates quicker, especially on mild steel. If you just go to a good stainless steel header, the coefficient of thermal heat transfer is so slow, the heat transfer is practically better than a mild steel header ceramic coated. Just my thoughts and experiences. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:07:57 -0700 Subject: Dyno Stuff Just a thought. Jacob's Vehicle Equipment Co. Bloomfield, Conn. has announced the availability of an electromagnetic drive line brake ranging from a 134 to 817 braking horsepower at 2,500 rpm and brake torque values from 289 to 2,315 foot lbs. No relationship to Jacob's Electronics. These devices brake vehicles up to 110,000 lbs. by electromagnetic absorption of power. Cost said to be "reasonable" but have no other data. Just might be useful to look at as an absorber for a dyno. Of course Mr. Thermodynamics and other anally retentive types will quote me physics books saying its impossible - and the fact it is in production by a major heavy truck parts manufacturer will make little difference. Remember the Reichstag - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Why run it hot? A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 16:56:15 PDT Subject: RE: Why run it hot? The entire point of burning fuel is to make hot gasses. The hotter the better up the the limits of the materials you have to work with. If you can maintain the gasses at higher temperature, you can get extract more energy from the combustion, at the same time reducing the load on the cooling system. john carroll - ---------------Original Message--------------- A lot of traffic relating to ceramics/keeping exhaust hot has been passing through... Why would I want to do this? Is it just for TurboCharging, or is it useful in other respects?I thought gas blew up best when cold... enlighten me f I'm wrong. TIA, Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 09/16/96 16:56:15 ------------------------------ From: Stuart Baly Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 11:17:43 EST Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head >The Noratlas had a 14cyl. radial with disc-valves (?). This engine might have used Aspen (Aspin?) valves. I read about these a long time ago. They had a disc mounted on a vertical shaft mounted so that the lower surface of the disc was the upper surface of the combustion chamber. The disc had a hole in it, and was rotated at half engine speed, so that intake and exhaust ports were covered and uncovered at the appropriate times. Apparently the system was sorted and reliable - ports were opened faster and flowed better than with conventional valves, and with no reciprocating valve train, they revved to the moon (14000rpm from a 250cc single in the mid 1930's) Stuart. ============================================== Stuart Baly Technical Officer Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station S.Baly@xxx.au ============================================== All responses are my own and should not be mistaken for Sagely Advice, or even Common Sense. ------------------------------ From: Craig Pugsley Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:33:46 +1000 (EST) Subject: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? Hi, I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages of cool stuff in it. Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? Cheers, Craig. pugsley@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:35:35 -0700 Subject: GM Map Sensor Hi All Here is the GM map sensor data Stamped 460 Used 82 - 92 kpa Hg volts 100 0 4.9 90 2.9 4.4 80 5.9 3.8 70 8.9 3.3 60 11.8 2.7 50 14.8 2.2 40 17.7 1.7 30 20.7 1.1 20 23.7 0.6 GL: peter ------------------------------ From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 08:08:10 MET Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head Hi Stuart, no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as possible between the cone and the head. A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by BMW, but didn't reach production stage. I don't know the name (maybe knight?) and I do hard to explain the principle. The cylinderwall has slots and is turning / oscillating. Knight system had two coaxial slotted cylinders turning (or so) I try to find the book where I read it. Hans > >The Noratlas had a 14cyl. radial with disc-valves (?). > > This engine might have used Aspen (Aspin?) valves. I read about these a > long time ago. They had a disc mounted on a vertical shaft mounted so that > the lower surface of the disc was the upper surface of the combustion > chamber. The disc had a hole in it, and was rotated at half engine speed, > so that intake and exhaust ports were covered and uncovered at the > appropriate times. Apparently the system was sorted and reliable - ports > were opened faster and flowed better than with conventional valves, and > with no reciprocating valve train, they revved to the moon (14000rpm from a > 250cc single in the mid 1930's) > > Stuart. hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ From: Jim Davies Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 23:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > Hi Stuart, > no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it > was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as > possible between the cone and the head. > A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by > BMW, but didn't reach production stage. Any more information on the BMW engine? Junkers made a WW2 era disc valve V8 aluminum engine for torpedos. power output was 275hp at 3600 rpm. Interestingly enough, one Felix Wankel developed it. jim Davies ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 15:33:38 Subject: Injector list I seem to remember a while back, there was talk about injector flow rates, well I happend to come across this earlier today: http://proffa.cc.tut.fi/%7ek124476/index.html For those interested, once you get through it all, there is a reasonable list on Bosch injectors ie. part numbers and flow rates. I don't know if the home page owner is on the list, but I recon he has done quite a job of it. Enjoy !! Dan dzorde@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 09:24:46 +-200 Subject: RE: MAP sensor Anybody out there know who Stack is??? Well, they use those little = squidgy yellow ear plugs as vibration mounts.. by all accounts they work = REALY well! (but aparantly didnt save a data logger that went round the = back wheel of a Kawasaki!). Ive used them in the past to mount my CD = player in the Spitfire, as the ride is so harsh it wouldnt play.. 4 = earplugs, end on underneath it, and no probs! Just an Idea ! Mark - ---------- From: Darrell Norquay[SMTP:dnorquay@xxx.com] Sent: Saturday, September 14, 1996 2:51 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: MAP sensor At 08:19 AM 9/13/96 -0500, Tom wrote: >Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, >what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. Typically, most OEM MAP sensors are little black boxes around 2x3x1", = with screw mounting holes built in, a small barbed hose fitting, and a plug = or short wiring harness with plug. >The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, >(http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog >for about $26.=20 The MPX4100 series have all the necessary signal conditioning built in. They are simple 3 wire devices, voltage in (5V) , voltage out = (.2v-4.9v), ground. Slap it in a waterproof enclosure and you're done. They may = not like high vibration environments, so best to mount them on the firewall, = in the passenger compartment and run a hose to the manifold vacuum tree. = These may be chaper than new OEM sensors, if you feel like doing the = mechanical bit yourself. If you are doing an EFI circuit board, consider mounting = the sensor right on your PCB. Vacuum hose doesn't pick up noise, whereas a wiring harness might... One tip on these, the hose barbs provided on the sensor are relatively fragile, one slip when pushing on the hose and = it's history. Better to plumb this out to an external metal hose barb on the box, to avoid the chance of breaking off the tit. >Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? >Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that >that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an >interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts >proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Either unit will give you equivalent results, and probably don't require = any intervening components to interface to the processor. If you have = enough analog channels on your micro, analog is probably easier. If you are = short on analogs, and feel confident that you can write the code to measure frequency (piece of cake on an 'HC11, but then so is analog) do it that = way. The frequency approach may have better noise immunity than analog. = Forget the F-V stuff, it's not necessary or desireable. For dinking around purposes, you may be better off to get a used unit from an auto = wreckers, and see if it does what you want. As far as what to do with the data = once you've got it, stay tuned... regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:14:36 +-200 Subject: RE: Math Question I kinda get your point, but shurley what we are doing here is using that = superb bit of waters characteristics, latent heat of vaporisation, to = absorb the heat, and not throw it into the walls, crown and head so = much..., and thereby keep the pressure up, or have I got it wrong here? Mark (who thought after 4 years he waas getting to know a bit about this = stuff, and has just realised, put down the soldering iron, and pick the = books up again!) - ---------- From: Robert J. Harris[SMTP:bob@xxx.com] Sent: Monday, September 16, 1996 9:02 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Math Question Remember the Reichstag - ---------- > From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: re: Math Question > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM >=20 >=20 > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer =20 > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. >=20 > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then=20 > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most=20 > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency=20 > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can=20 > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is=20 > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is = > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount.=20 > (ie the knock limit) >=20 > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, = convert=20 between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling=20 water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or=20 more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature=20 - - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little teeny=20 tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber -=20 as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is=20 about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes=20 characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times=20 when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any of that wasted heat might get converted to power. Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:38:21 +-200 Subject: Off limits Seems to me we are getting way way off topic guys, much as I enjoy the = steam thing that is going on, and the discussion of weird heads and = valves, I suspect that building new heads, or trying to perfect the = automotive steam engine is way out of most of our capabilitys. I've decided to start my project by building a mapped ignition for a 4 = ,6 or 8 Cyl engine, with advance by looking up a pre programmed MAP and = engine speed map in eprom. Havnt chosen the uP yet.. but I've given myself till Christmas (as that = is the next time I'll see my ride 9boo sob snif) Mark ------------------------------ From: "Hans Hintermaier" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:33:01 MET Subject: Re: Radial-Diametral Head >> On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Hans Hintermaier wrote: > > > > > Hi Stuart, > > no, it was not aspin, they could not make it long-lasting, because it > > was not a disk, but a cone. It's hard to keep distance as small as > > possible between the cone and the head. > > A disk valve system as you describe was successfully tested in WW2 by > > BMW, but didn't reach production stage. > > Any more information on the BMW engine? Junkers made a WW2 era > disc valve V8 aluminum engine for torpedos. power output was 275hp > at 3600 rpm. Interestingly enough, one Felix Wankel developed it. > > jim Davies Hi Jim, I'll try to scan in a drawing of the head until tomorrow and put it on http://www.nefo.med.uni-muenchen.de/~hiha/gif/ Felix Wankel's first steps in engineering were experiments with turning gaskets to seal hot parts moving together. So if someone knew how to make a disk valve engine running, then him! All big factories worked together in WW2. I saw books of this time (top secret, interrnal use only) where they discribed everything around engines, still valid today. E. g. High speed movies of different diesel injecors, burning inside a comustion chamber, and much more. How to drill 0.038" holes 30" deep in steel, with X-ray fotos of the results. (they had no hi-pressure tubes for the immense injection-pressure of the JUMO aircraft diesel) More tomorrow Hans hiha@xxx.de Munich / Germany ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #276 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".