DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 19 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 278 In this issue: RE: Math Question RE: Off limits RE: Dyno Stuff RE: Timing - Ignition Injection systems prices Re: GM Coolant sensor Re: Math Question Re: GM Coolant sensor RE: Math Question Re: Dyno Stuff Re: Jake Brakes & dynos RE: Math Question Re: Injection systems prices Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Math Question Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Math Question Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor waste heat Electromotive Re: Jake Brakes & dynos Re: Jake Brakes & dynos GM eprom help Re: GM Coolant sensor Re: Hardened Valve Seats Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:06:24 +-200 Subject: RE: Math Question Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) Mark - ---------- From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Math Question This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets go with that number. If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. John On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Robert J. Harris wrote: > Remember the Reichstag > > ---------- > > From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: re: Math Question > > Date: Monday, September 16, 1996 7:06 AM > > > > > > >The point was, is, and always will be to try to combine the sheer > > >power of a steam engine with the simplicity of an IC engine. > > > > You can't get something for nothing. If you have 'sheer power' then > > you're also burning a lot of fuel too. Bear in mind that most > > stationary steam plants are working at about 35% thermal efficiency > > (unless they're combined cycle plants), which a good IC engine can > > approach too! Therefore just adding water to fuel in an IC engine is > > not going to give you vast increases of power. What it might allow is > > to extend the characteristic limits of an engine by a small amount. > > (ie the knock limit) > > > > > > Let me see if I get this thermodynamic thing right. I burn fuel, convert > between 20 and 30 percent to mechanical energy, heat up cooling > water and oil to 200 plus degrees, and throw away 50 per cent or > more of the energy as heat at 1300 plus degrees exhaust temperature > - enuff to send water boiling at 3600 psi - and there is only a little > teeny > tiny amount of excess heat to convert water to steam in the chamber - > as an antidetontant? I'm convinced. > > I guess I just don't get the big picture. Maybe water knows that it is > about to be injected into an engine and presto magic changes > characteristics and doesn't boil at 212 degrees or expand 1800 times > when it turns to steam when that happens in a combustion chamber. > It just stops making 600 psi at 440 degrees so that heaven forbid any > of that wasted heat might get converted to power. > > Thank you for the thermodynamic and magic lesson. > > ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:59:53 +-200 Subject: RE: Off limits Thanks for the note dude: I'm intending to start from scratch, having read everything else, I dont = think I can do it any better, but I will learn a fair bit re-inventing = the wheel ! I thought about using somebody elses electronics, but I have = to get into designing in the engine compartment( besides which, I didnt = buy a UV light box to etch PCBs with for nothing!.. I'd better be seen = to be using it else my young lady will go apeshit about the pair of = shoes she didnt get) Mark. - ---------- From: James Weiler[SMTP:james@xxx.ca] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 4:22 PM To: Mark Pitts Subject: Re: Off limits On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Seems to me we are getting way way off topic guys, much as I enjoy the = steam thing that is going on, and the discussion of weird heads and = valves, I suspect that building new heads, or trying to perfect the = automotive steam engine is way out of most of our capabilitys. >=20 > I've decided to start my project by building a mapped ignition for a 4 = ,6 or 8 Cyl engine, with advance by looking up a pre programmed MAP and = engine speed map in eprom. >=20 > Havnt chosen the uP yet.. but I've given myself till Christmas (as = that is the next time I'll see my ride 9boo sob snif) >=20 > Mark >=20 >=20 >=20 Howdy Mark. Can I suggest using an EEC-IV ECU . This wonderfull device = uses part throttle and WOT spark maps for it's ignition. I don't know = if=20 it will function if it's not running the injectors though. You'd know=20 more about fooling it than I. Just a thought. P.S. I've seen a web site for a digital ign. system. I think you can = get=20 to it from the DIY EFI home page. You've probably already checked this=20 one out though. later dude jw ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:04:06 +-200 Subject: RE: Dyno Stuff I started the whole thread as a 'Lets take a truck axle, and use its = brakes as a dyno for short power runs. I'll be interested in the Telma thing, if I could find out a rough = price... But I still think for short power runs, and my back bocket, the = old axle idea is going to be the cheapest for me! (but I have access to = engineering stuff for making up adapter plates etc.) mark - ---------- From: John Faubion[SMTP:jfaubion@xxx.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 12:49 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Dyno Stuff > Just might be useful to look at as an absorber for a dyno. Of course > Mr. Thermodynamics and other anally retentive types will quote me > physics books saying its impossible - and the fact it is in production > by a major heavy truck parts manufacturer will make little difference. Robert, I guess you weren't reading the thread a while back about using = a "Telma" (another brand name for the device you describe) as a = dynamometer. This has been mentioned but no one has posted many details for using = one. It is an interesting idea though. John Faubion jfaubion@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:27:48 +-200 Subject: RE: Timing - Ignition If there aren't any good ideas, better go and buy some new pistons Mark ;-) - ---------- From: Robert J. Harris[SMTP:bob@xxx.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 7:25 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Timing - Ignition Subject: Ignition timing in conjunction with EFI There appears to exist a number of sensors to build an excellent self tuning EFI, yet the only sensor that anyone talks about for ignition timing is a knock sensor that just tells me - oops too much - self destruct sequence initiated. Factory curves and random published curves are all that most without dynes have to work with. Back in the bad old days, (pre computer) the killer secret for street tuning was to advance the static initial timing watching rpm and vacuum, until you got the max you could get and still start the engine, then put a sping kit in adjust the mechanical until the total was the same as what ever your guru of choice had dicated. Look for ping or knock, then put some more in. It works but had too much PFM (Pure F___ng Majic) to be reliable for all engines. Since then, many bandaid seem to have appeared. Since we now have computers, we should be able to monitor something other than self destruct imminent and tweak and peak the timing in conjunction with the fuel to get optimum power and economy. I truly hope that there are some good ideas out there. Remember the Reichstag - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Marta Puig Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:22:58 +0200 Subject: Injection systems prices Anybody knows how much ist a L-Jetronic or a Motronic injection system? Tell me please, where can I it find. Lady M from Spain. ------------------------------ From: Jay Snyder Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor On Wed, 18 Sep 1996 dzorde@xxx.au wrote: > > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au > You could use an inverter. Jay ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Math Question On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, John Napoli wrote: I would like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. What about turbos? Does anyone have any data on whether adding a turbo charger increases thermodynamic effeciency? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 07:41:19 -0500 Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor > > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au I thought that's what inverting amps were for. Tom ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Math Question Yes, and the key phrase is 'to an extent'. There is still a lot of waste heat out the tail pipe and in the radiator and etc. A turbo is a step in the right direction but there are still a lot of BTUs being 'wasted'. John On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) > > Mark > > ---------- > From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Math Question > > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). > > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. > > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets > go with that number. > > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. > > John > > > > > ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:36:11 -0700 Subject: Re: Dyno Stuff Mark, DYI_EFI EMF retarders have been around for at least 15 years on various heavy vehicles like trucks, buss's etc. Used one's should be available in heavy vehicle boneyanrds. Newer ones are smaller, lighter and cost more. Prices vary by customer attitude, time of day, need for commission and just for the fun of it - typical boneyard pricing structure. Old city buss's typically have them - Jake Brake's suck in rich neighborhoods. They fit in the driveline - after the transmission - sort of like an overdirve transmission kit. Will post the cost and dimensions when I get them. Sorry I missed the opening parts of the dyno thread. Remember the Reichstag - don' let Billie repeat it ------------------------------ From: Doug Rorem Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:59:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos >From: "Robert J. Harris" >>Mark, DYI_EFI >> >>EMF retarders have been around for at least 15 years on various >>heavy vehicles like trucks, buss's etc. Used one's should be >>available in heavy vehicle boneyanrds. Newer ones are smaller, >>lighter and cost more. Prices vary by customer attitude, time >>of day, need for commission and just for the fun of it - typical >>boneyard pricing structure. Old city buss's typically have >>them - Jake Brake's suck in rich neighborhoods. The Jake Brake (Jacobs engine brake) on trucks don't work by EMF. It causes the engine to become an air compressor when the driver engages it (typically when they take their foot completely off the throttle). They have a Jacobs driveline brake which does work by EMF. Their WWW site: http://www.jakebrake.com >> >>They fit in the driveline - after the transmission - sort of like an >>overdirve transmission kit. Will post the cost and dimensions >>when I get them. Sorry I missed the opening parts of the >>dyno thread. >> >> >> >>Remember the Reichstag - don' let Billie repeat it >> - -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:58:09 +-200 Subject: RE: Math Question Thought I was vaguely on the right track.... Now.... Water. Is this the case: Water absorbs energy as it does the transition from liquid to gas. This = transition is 1 Joule per cc. So by letting the water absorb the energy, without increasing gas temp, = but definitly increasing cylinder pressure, we are absorbing heat, and = turning it into torque??? Just want to make sure that I'm not being stupid! Mark ;-) - ---------- From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 11:25 AM To: Mark Pitts Cc: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE: Math Question Yes, and the key phrase is 'to an extent'. There is still a lot of = waste heat out the tail pipe and in the radiator and etc. A turbo is a step = in the right direction but there are still a lot of BTUs being 'wasted'. John On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Mark Pitts wrote: > Surly that is effectively what a turbo does to an extent, esp. in = diesels ??? (I might have it wrong here) >=20 > Mark >=20 > ---------- > From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Math Question >=20 > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). >=20 > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run = their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is = pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. >=20 > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in = the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but = lets > go with that number. >=20 > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that = make a > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter = cars, we > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI = software > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would = like > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. >=20 > John >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:43:02 -0700 Subject: Re: Injection systems prices Marta Puig wrote: > > Anybody knows how much ist a L-Jetronic or a Motronic injection > system? Tell me please, where can I it find. > > Lady M from Spain. Lady M, We typically see used computers from the 911's in the $300.00 to $600.00 range. Rebuilt cores go for around $650.00 U.S.Dollars. These are Motronics units from the 84-89 911's The later stuff costs more. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: "Robert J. Harris" Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:54:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos No scat sherlock, noisy as hell and not found like EMF units on buss's and other vehicles that have to operate in quiet neighborhoods. All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - Remember the Reichstag!!! - ---------- > From: Doug Rorem > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos > Date: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 9:59 AM > > The Jake Brake (Jacobs engine brake) on trucks don't work by EMF. It > causes the engine to become an air compressor when the driver engages > it (typically when they take their foot completely off the throttle). They > have a Jacobs driveline brake which does work by EMF. Their WWW site: > > http://www.jakebrake.com > > >> ------------------------------ From: Kalle Pihlajasaari Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:09:17 +0200 (sat) Subject: Re: Math Question Hi, > Thought I was vaguely on the right track.... Now.... Water. > > Is this the case: > > Water absorbs energy as it does the transition from liquid to gas. This = > transition is 1 Joule per cc. It is one Joule / deg / cc of specific heat (not a phase change) For the latent heat of vaporisation it is many Joules / cc (like 1500 Joules or something) This is why steam burns you much worse than boiling hot water. > So by letting the water absorb the energy, without increasing gas temp, = > but definitly increasing cylinder pressure, we are absorbing heat, and = > turning it into torque??? Well turning to pressure, remember the burn quality will be compromised at some point from too much water but you certainly will get more steam. Also the problem with steam is if it starts to condense at high pressure at the lower portion of the cylinder then you have a sudden drop in pressure. All the other noxious gasses will not condense until they get real cold and then only some of them. The waste heat problem is also somewhat under scrutiny by the ceramic motor people who want to do away with cooling and run the engine hot for a good burn but not loose the heat in a radiator, just reaise teh temp once and then use better design to make the engined more adiabatic (I think the word is) and circulate the heat. Turbines all use regenerators to get some of the heat back from the exhaust gasses into the compressed air, they do not have the ait density problem of valved engines so are able to increase the pressure and air velocity to make up for the hotter input air. What sort of electronics are to be found in turbine and Wankel cars. They came out long time ago with mechanical fueling but the occasional few these days might have electronics, dunno. Cheers - -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@xxx.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 ------------------------------ From: Jay Snyder Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos What is an EMF retarder? - -- J. ------------------------------ From: Doug Rorem Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:23:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos >>What is an EMF retarder? >> >>-- J. >> >> EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking system that is mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. When an electric current is fed to the brake, it passes through coils and creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field creates drag. This drag opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the vehicle down. - -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:42:21 +0200 Subject: Re: Math Question John Napoli wrote: > > This issue of thermodynamic efficiency is one of my hot points (ouch). > > Fossil fuel plants use every trick in the book to recapture all the > 'waste' BTUs that they can. If you neglect the power used to run their > pollution devices (a parasitic loss), their overall efficiency is pretty > good - I recall numbers in the mid-40s. > > Our gasoline engines in our cars do nothing to utilize the energy in the > waste heat. Arre they 10%? 20% efficient overall? I doubt 20% but lets > go with that number. I had the same feeeling before . in fact I plan to build some peltier-cells on my engine to charge my battery who knows ? maybe I can eliminate the generator and save power BTW does anybody knows how the H-O cells work ? is it possible to build one wich work with gasoline and air to produce electricity ? the heat-cells work at a 70-80% eff. range bye charley ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:24:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos What is typically used for the source of the electric current? me At 03:23 PM 9/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>What is an EMF retarder? >>> >>>-- J. >>> >>> >EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force > >from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html > >The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking system that is >mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. When an electric current is >fed to the brake, it passes through coils and creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field >creates drag. This drag opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the >vehicle down. > >-- >Doug Rorem >University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] >EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] >851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] >Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: lambs@xxx.au (Stephen Lamb) Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:28:47 +1000 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos >All that Clinton wants is every thing Hitler had - > Remember the Reichstag!!! OK,OK.........enough already. The first few times was a vague annoyance.....but now I just delete the messages that start with this 'tag' without bothering with the rest of the message. Apparently it has something more to do with American politics than the actual Reichstag incident (which I DO know a little about). Whatever....it has little to do with this list, please take it to alt.politics (or something like that). This is NOT a flame - and a flame war will not be entered into - just a cry that enough is enough. Cheers Stephen Lamb Dept. of Defence DSTO, AMRL 506 Lorimer Street Fishermans Bend VIC 3207 Australia Tel: +61 3 9626 7525 Fax: +61 3 9626 7089 IZCC #180 ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:49:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? Yes, I have it. Their is some good things in it.They get I think 12 buck for it. And their prices are kinda' expensive. The have a lot of older EFI (continous flow hilborn) stuff. Just call them up, they take plastic. Sandy At 11:33 AM 9/17/96 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, > >I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, >Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages >of cool stuff in it. > >Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? > >Cheers, >Craig. >pugsley@xxx.au > > ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 08:48:44 Subject: Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor That is what they are for, but wouldn,t it be great to get rid of an op-amp. Hence try and reduce the amount of circuitry required. Something like a simple LCD temp read out (very useful for diff, gearbox and water in race cars), temp sensor, a small resistor divider and a panel meter, and its guarranteed to be very reliable, once you start throwing in op-amps, etc. you need very steady power supply rails to avoid inaccurate readings. So is there a positive temp coefficient sensor around ? (could always make one if I have to, but its easier if there's a car that's already using one). Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/18/96 11:19 PM > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > > Dan dzorde@xxx.au I thought that's what inverting amps were for. Tom ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Wed, 18 Sep 96 18:30:14 PDT Subject: waste heat An excellent opportunity for waste heat utilization is to run all of the accessories from a small turbine or piston motor driven by a the expansion of a fluid heated by exhaust heat. Most cars are already packing around some of key the components in the form of an air conditioning system. If there is any excess power after the electric, power steering, heating and other needs are met, feed it back into the power train through a belt with an alternator tricked up as a brushless DC motor. While your at it figure out a piezo electric device in a can to make electricity out of noise to replace the conventional muffler. john carroll - ------------------------------------- jac@xxx.us 09/18/96 18:30:14 ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:04:06 +0000 Subject: Electromotive Hellppp. Got stuck with this car that has an old Electromotive TEC-I with a 23D eprom and it needs a program called "CAL" to work with it. Anybody out there have one or know where to get it. In the Electromotive Manual it gives a description of the units/eproms/calibration software and next to this one it says (obsolete), oh boy, more fun! If anyone has worked with this system maybe you could answer this question. We got the car with no calibration software, and according to the manual there's no way to upload the parameters from the unit to the PC, or is there? It looks like all you can do is download from the PC to the Electromotive TEC unit so do we have to start all over again, even though we have a calibration that's mildly close to where it should be? Any help would be appreciated! <:( Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Doug Rorem Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:15:11 -0500 Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos >>What is typically used for the source of the electric current? me I assume it's the vehicle's 12V (or 24V?) electrical system. The Jacobs Driveline brake takes quite a bit of current (249 Amps worst case!). This would mean a fairly hefty power source would be required for use in a dyno. They (Jacobs) also don't really say what the duty cycle of the device is.. It probably overheats if you try to use it continuously. As someone noted previously, it seems easier to create rotating energy than it is to get rid of it! [table from] http://www.jakebrake.com/products/perftables/tDriveBrake.html Jacobs Braking Max. Brake Weight Amperage Max. Vehicle Weight Models HP@xxx.) Drawn Stop & Go weight Long (ft lbs)** (Amps) Descent (lbs) 12JC10 134 @ 2500 289 154 115 13,800 8,000 12JC12 152 @ 2500 362 225 123 15,400 8,800 12JC16 198 @ 2500 470 227 149 17,600 11,000 12JC20 265 @ 2500 579 267 166 19,800 13,200 12JC25 332 @ 2500 723 322 145 28,600 15,400 12JC30 403 @ 2500 868 379 249 39,000 26,000 12JC40 483 @ 2500 1,157 534 177 41,800 33,000 12JC50 559 @ 2500 1,447 736 187 48,400 37,400 12JC65 728 @ 2500 1,881 864 184 96,800 73,700 12JC75 766 @ 2500 2,170 948 197 110,000 83,600 12JC80 817 @ 2500 2,315 977 213 110,000 88,000 12JC10LC 134 @xxx.1 13,800 8,000 12JC12LC 152 @xxx.3 15,400 8,800 12JC16LC 198 @xxx.25 17,600 11,000 * Estimated ** Torque values are a more precise measurement of braking performance. >> >>At 03:23 PM 9/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >>>>>What is an EMF retarder? >>>>> >>>>>-- J. >>>>> >>>EMF = ElectroMagnetic Force >>> >>>from http://www.jakebrake.com/products/theory/dlbtheory.html >>> >>>The Jacobs Driveline Brake is an electro-magnetic supplemental braking >>>system that is mounted between the vehicle's transmission and rear axle. >>>When an electric current is fed to the brake, it passes through coils and >>>creates a magnetic field. This magnetic field creates drag. This drag >>>opposes the normal rotation of the driveshaft, thereby slowing the >>>vehicle down. >>> - -- Doug Rorem University of Illinois at Chicago (312)-996-5439 [voice] EECS Department RM 1120 (312)-413-1065 [fax] 851 S. Morgan Street (708)-996-2226 [pager] Chicago, IL 60607-7053 rorem@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: Carter Hendricks Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 20:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Jake Brakes & dynos {electro mumble jumble deleted} But this isn't how Jakes used to work, is it. I rode in trucks with Jakes when I was too young to understand just how they worked [someone tell us!] but the sound was wonderful! --Carter ------------------------------ From: Jennifer Rose Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:22:25 -0700 Subject: GM eprom help Hello All I would like to get some information on how to change the settings in a GM eprom. My project vehicle is a 74 Chevy pickup with a TPI unit out of a 86 Camaro. The unit has been in the truck for about a year. Wanted to use code for a 89 eprom, so the cold start injector can be removed. Need to bypass the vehicle anti theft (VATS) part of programming. Thanks in advance for the help. Thanks Vance ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor At 11:44 AM 9/18/96, Dan wrote: > Does anyone know if there's a positive curve temp sensor around, ie. > increasing voltage for increasing temp. Would make life a lot easier > for analogue circuitry. > There are a couple of solid state sensors which come to mind. Analog Devices has the AD590, which is a current output device. It outputs a current of 1uA per degree Kelvin. Thus, at 0C it delivers 273uA, and at 100C it delivers 373uA. Run this through a resistor and you have whatever voltage you want, but you still have to deal with the offset. The other device worth looking into is the National Semiconductor LM34/35 series. This device puts out 10 mV per degree C (LM35) or degree F (LM34), but in most cases requires a negative supply voltage to get temp readings below zero. Unfortunately, neither is going to eliminate the opamp, since both signal levels are too low for most A/D converters, and both will need some offset to allow readings of temps below zero. There are positive temp coefficient thermistors available, but thermistors are very nonlinear. BTW, just because a thermistor has a negative tempco, doesn't mean you can only get a negative slope voltage out of it. Consider a voltage divider with a resistor tied to the supply, in series with the thermistor to ground: v+ v+ | | R1 Th1 | | +----out +----out | | Th1 R1 | | --- --- Fig 1 Fig 2 The circuit of Fig 1 will give a decreasing voltage with increasing temp. However, if you reverse the positions of the resistor and the thermistor, as in Fig 2, you will also reverse the slope of the output voltage, and thus have a positive slope output even though the sensor itself has a negative slope. regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 00:00:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats Hans-- Wie Gehts? Just wanted to let you know I hadn't forgotten about the seat material. Checked the SAE books we have--specs for valves, but not seats. Checked the General Motors Materials books, but no mention I could find. Took a cursory look at the ASM (Am. Society of Materials) Handbook, which goes into a million grades of steel, but no applications for those materials in the section I checked. Has been very busy at work, but when it slows down for a heartbeat or two, I'll keep looking. If I strike out at work, I'll make a Saturday morning visit to the machine shop and check their catalogs for specs. Cheers. - -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Bob Harris has mentioned a desire to inject water at a precise point in the combustion cycle just for grins to see what happens. I'd think one would want to preheat the water to little less than the boiling point, and then inject after the combustion was well on it's way so you wouldn't snuff it. I also imagine that ceramic coatings on the water handling hardware would do wonders for component life. Anyhow I believe there may be an existing engine suited to this. The little Plymouth(I think they called them champ, or chimp) had a 3rd lobe on the cam that actuated a 3rd valve for what they called a "stratified charge". Had something to do with putting a proper mixture around the plug, and lean everywhere else. There was an adjustment on the rocker arm so you could play with that for timing. I'd imagine that some type of mechanical injector could be machined into the space used by the stratified charge system. And I don't think you're nuts! ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 14:56:57 Subject: Re[2]: GM Coolant sensor Thanks, unfortunately the sensor is normally tied to ground when screwed into the block or other places of metal, so turning a NTC thermistor into a PTC thermistor becomes a bit of a mess, although not impossible. I may just get a PTC thermistor and encapsulate it in a brass plug to produce the temp sensor. Quite easy, but it would still be easier to buy one. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GM Coolant sensor Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 9/19/96 2:46 PM v+ v+ | | R1 Th1 | | +----out +----out | | Th1 R1 | | --- --- Fig 1 Fig 2 The circuit of Fig 1 will give a decreasing voltage with increasing temp. However, if you reverse the positions of the resistor and the thermistor, as in Fig 2, you will also reverse the slope of the output voltage, and thus have a positive slope output even though the sensor itself has a negative slope. regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 21:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 >------------------------------ > >From: Ennis Bragg >Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) >Subject: Re: Kinsler fuel injection catalog?? > >> I saw a tiny advert in a magazine for Kinsler fuel injection in Troy, >> Michigan (usa), and apparently they have a catalog with about 100 pages >> of cool stuff in it. >> >> Has anyone got this catalog, & if so how can the rest of us get one? > >Here's some info out of an ad in SCCA's Sportscar magazine.(Sept.96,pg43) > >Kinsler Fuel Injection >1834-K Thunderbird >Troy, MI 48084 > >Phone: 810-362-1145 >Fax: 810-362-1032 > >Send check or money order. no COD or credit cards are accepted for catalog >Catalog Price: $12.00 (US) > >"Our 92 page handbook/catalog is the bible on RACING FUEL INJECTION." > >This is all straight from their add. > >hope it helps As one who's seen some of their work, and needs something like what they make, it does help. It tells me they have an attitude and think pretty highly of themselves.(no cod accepted for the much higher than cost catalog) Being as they aren't smart enough to figuire out that throttle plates on both sides of an engine need to open the same way in order to be consistent I imagine that I'll have to build one for myself as compared to modify theirs. The reason for this is that I doubt that they're the type I'll do any deal with. The reason I put this in here is so that some of the students who may indeed be in a marketing position in the future may want to consider it. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #278 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".