DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 21 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 282 In this issue: Re: Learning Systems Re: wasted-heat Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: Hardened Valve Seats RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with Re: Hardened Valve Seats Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: Ignition timing in conjunction with Re: Hardened Valve Seats Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: Stelite Valves and Propane Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction Re: net etiquette Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 RE: Math Question Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 6811 Disassembler See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dirk Wright Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Learning Systems On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, David Crocombe wrote: > > It would be interesting to play with this kind of learning > in relation to cars. The vehicles could then be self tuning > depending on environment, load, parameter drift, wear or > whatever. I guess traction control and antilock brakes are > a step in this direction of making cars more intelligent. As an examiner at the patent office, I work in the automatic transmisison field, as well as manual transmissions. Adaptive controllers are well documented in the prior art, infact the Chrysler minivan was an adaptive transmission that adjusts for wear in the frictional members to maintain an optimum shift each time. There are others that sense a driving "style" and adjust shift timing to meet that style. There are numerous adaptive engine control schemes, also, but I don't work in that specific field, although all of the automatic transmissions have an engine related component. If I can be helpful in locating some patents for you, please let me know. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:49:55 +0200 Subject: Re: wasted-heat tom cloud wrote: > > What I've observed for electrical power draws: > headlamps 50 watts ~ 4 A > exterior lamps 10-20 watts ~ 2 A > interior lamps 10 watts ~ 1 A > dash lamps 2 watts ~ 200 mA. > ignition coil 50 watts ~ 4 A (intermittent) > radio 2 - xx watts ~ .25 amps (no volume) > tape deck motor 2 watts ~ .2 A > starter 1800 - 3000 watts ~ 150 - 250 A > fuel pump 24 - 120 watts ~ 2 - 10 amps > blower motor ( dunno ) > computer ( dunno ) > > Tom the 140/100 headlamps draw a little more than 4 and there are 6 spots to lighten up the road about the audio sys I'm not sure . The amps are true only for the top load situation and this will be nice but I'm not sure it will ever reach this because the numbers on this new amp-speaker stuff are unbelieveably high. Dan wrote : > I'm running 90/130W (low/high beam) in my headlights, a set of 150W > sealed beam for high beam and a set of 150W spotties. Comes to 180W > at low beam (around town), switch on the high beam and you have 740W > (due to the purposely designed wiring the low beam stays on when the > high beam is switched on), then switch on the spotties (1040W) and > boy, you'll be able to spot a roo 20Km up the road before you hit it. > It does tend to flatten the battery over long periods though, the > alternator drops to about 9.6V @xxx. > this is the reason I changed alternator to a 105 Amps one nice to know that there are other blind boys are driving on the world my car is white by the way bye charley ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 11:26:09 +0200 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Dirk Wright wrote: > > I would be very careful using water injection on a diesel because the > extremely high compression ratios could easily lead to hydro lock, thus > bendin your connecting rods, or worse. Also, I heard somewhere that > diesels actually *liked* lots of heat, so the cooling effect of water > injection may be a disadvantage. > yeah I felt that too , but bedford had an invention a few years ago something with exhaust feedback or like this and they stated it'll lower the combustion chamber temp lower the noise emission increase mileage and so on so I'm a little bit confused I just changed my thermostat to a warmer one and the difference seems to be positive . any ideas are welcome maybe I could heat the air intake with exhaust-heat ? :) anyway I posted this to get some opinions from the gurus maybe somebody already tried it blown an engine and can tell me to limit the water quantity under 1% of the air taken by the engine bye charley ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Gordon Couger wrote: > > > I think they make stelite valves for about every thing. We use them alot > for valves in propane conversions. The standard drill was to run a new > pickup 5,000 miles to break it in, make the propane conversion, run it > until needed a valve job and put in stelite valves and seats. At least on > the exaust valve. Why would running propane require stellite exhaust valves? Is the temperature of combustion that much higher than gasoline? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 07:42:57 -0500 Subject: RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with > >>There appears to exist a number of sensors to build >>an excellent self tuning EFI, [ snip ] >I have thought about this an awful lot, and plan to put >some of my ideas into practice, once I figure out how >to actually build the thing... I 'spect everybody on this list has thought about this. I guess maybe I'm too conservative, but 'sadistics' (i.e. statistics) says that the closer you gets to perfection, the more effort you expend to get less -- law of diminishing returns. I figure a lot of this has already been solved. I'd like to not have to repeat probably tens of thousands of hours of research and engineering time trying to come up with the same answers. Here's some of my questions: why do you have to re-calibrate if you change your throttle body size, or injector, or whatever else? I mean, I know why, but why can't the bloomin' confuser figger that out for me? Here's my proposed solution: the EGO is purty good at stoich, right? And, if you'll read the data, it's really not too bad off stoich, it's just that the curve gets real steep and is probably not perzactly the same from one to the next. So, why can't you sense when you're in 'cruise' (i.e. small load -- probably determined from MAP, RPM and TPS), find stoich by dynamically changing A/F and remember that? Shouldn't take long to store a table of these points (and each point would be 'refined' by averaging everytime the same point was experienced). Then, rich / lean conditions aren't too far off (EGO-wise). Probably the best way to determine lean (if you're going for max MPG) would be to measure EGT -- probably'd only need to measure one cylinder. On my motorcycle, I put a washer with a thermocouple silver soldered to it under one spark plug and was able to see what I thought were useful operating temp changes. Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he apparently thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been considering - -- i.e. timing!!] All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. The EGO does give data either side of stoich -- according to the data stuff I've seen, its repeatability is influenced mostly by temperature, but you should be able to use it to get you purty close -- certainly to the point where 'diminishing returns' means you'll spend more time screwing with it than driving it. [I know I can get 743.375 horsepower, but if I could make 740 and spend 6 months and $5,000 less, could I forget about the 3-3/8 ponies? I dunno. I'd sorta like to have 'em all! But, then ....] The answer to a lotta this seems to me is that we miss one of the most important feedback elements: the driver!!! See, this is where I come back to the question: wadz rong wid doz liddl pots under de dash? I know you digital jocks hate the thought of an analog pot -- so, dammit, put a grey code encoded disk out there (and spend a couple hunnert extra to prove your point!). Bottom line: the confuser can make lotsa decisions, but *YOU* can help it. Now, the prob here is that lotsa of this stuff is reel subjective -- like you can't really tell when you're making max horsepower (you CAN tell if it's way off, but you can't peak it 'cause it's probably changing purty fast). So, I don't have answers. Just questions. Seems like there's gotta be some way the driver can easily provide some limited feedback to his 'self-teaching' confuser widout setting up a *&$^%&* laptop and trying to type on that &*&$^()) thing at 140 mph. (You guyz gotta understand: the last time I laid a wrench on my steed was probably in April. I work lotsa hours. Not looking for sympathy, just saying, I guess, that if I had a lotta time and money I'd probably go for that last .01 ponies. Certainly like to think about it. I'm pretty good at micro-confusers and software. I've been around long enough to not be scared of analog -- in fact, I often see things that'd be better done in an analog way. What I don't know about is the fine points of engine control -- esp. the doo-dads used to sense things and what each of those variables means. I have done enough engineering to recognize that, considering IC engines have occupied lotsa time and money and there sure is lotsa high level stuff written about it, this must be a pretty deep subject. So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) ------------------------------ From: Gordon Couger Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:50:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats >Why would running propane require stellite exhaust valves? Is the >temperature of combustion that much higher than gasoline? > >Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov > It can be very hot if you set for max power. It has to be run rich to keep the exuast gas temp down. Also there is aboslutly no lubrication of the valves by the propane. For some reason it seems to cut the valve and seat worse than gasoline if any crud gets caught between the valve and the seat. Gordon ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, hoss karoly wrote: > positive . any ideas are welcome > maybe I could heat the air intake with exhaust-heat ? :) > anyway I posted this to get some opinions from the gurus Maybe add a turbo without an intercooler? **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:34:04 +0100 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > I would be very careful using water injection on a diesel ... Take a look at the tractor pulling deisel engines. They will use up to 15 bar (225 PSI) of boost, and put a lot of water in to control detonation. And they make an ungodly amount of power! On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. Water injection can be used to offset detonation at high power levels, but the water itself will not add any power. The power is added by allowing higher manifold pressures (either WOT or boost) before the engine explodes. The water itself adds no power (regardless of state changes to steam etc.) An engine with lower compression, better combustion chanmber design, aluminum heads, or ceramic coatings, can all do the same job of offsetting detonation. And off of those techniques are simpler (hence more reliable) than water injection. Mike +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 08:40:51 +0000 Subject: Re: Ignition timing in conjunction with > > Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, > this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain > gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. An interesting experience that may prove a point. A car we set up and dyno'd by the power method had some pretty wierd cams on 8.0/1 compression ratio, and turbo'd. the thing loved fuel to make power. Peak power was found at about 8 or 9/1 air fuel. put it on the road and it was extremely sluggish. Due to the air/fuel. Recalibrated the thing to the correct air fuels for the appropriate boost/compression ratio/cams and it all of a sudden ran great. figure this one out. It made better power with more fuel, but didn't accelerate as well. I've seen this one a few times. In this case the torque measurement in car (namely seat of the pants) worked better than the dyno. You can take this one either way, but I still feel that there is a given set of numbers for each combo for air/fuel ratio's that works best. Don't work so hard to find them, just program them in, then let your EGO find them. > I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he apparently > thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Again, the knock sensor is good for us in our application where the knock is so close to peak power. Especially when we see 18 - 21/1 effective compression ratio's on boost, on pump fuels (92-93 octane), lets talk twiddle fingers here. In other situations, as I mentioned earlier, we've seen peak power and the knock limit be 20 degrees apart. It's typically on low compression ratio or really bad combustion chamber designs, but there's a lot of those out there. > Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of > timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been considering > -- i.e. timing!!] Knock sensors are used for timing only. The only car I've seen that does anything else with it is SAAB, they decrease boost and enrichen the mixture upon knock as well as work with timing later. but the try to leave the timing up as far as possibly under the other conditions. > All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. > So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) Try 14.7 - 15 or even up into the 16's if your engine can handle it, it depends on combustion chambers and flame propogation. But at light throttle run as lean as possible with no misfire. Go to 12.8 to 13.3 (pump fuel numbers) for max power and torque normally aspirated. Boosted, lower the air fuel proportionately. We air cooleds have to run down in the 11.4-11.6/1 range at 20 psi with very good intercooling to maintain peak power and reliability. We get slightly better power at about 11.8 - 12/1 but the combustion chambers get too hot. Water cooled's would probably be happy at 11.8-12.0/1. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 12:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Hardened Valve Seats On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Gordon Couger wrote: > > > It can be very hot if you set for max power. It has to be run rich to keep the > exuast gas temp down. Also there is aboslutly no lubrication of the valves by > the propane. Looks like a good application for water injection. You can run it leaner to get max. power, and keep it cool with the water. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:11:44 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 [ snip ] >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better when the humididity was hi. Tom ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:13:53 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Diesel engines work by compressing air past the ignition temp of the fuel, then injecting the fuel near top dead center and getting autoignition.Since it runs extremely lean, lots of excess oxygen is present - hide that fact away. Prior to the intake valve closing, the more air that you can shove into the cylinder, the better. Cooler denser air makes more power because more oxygen is available.After closing the intake valve,more heat is icing on the cake - because the physics of compression will generate the heat to autoignite the fuel - provided there is no excessive heat LOSS to the cooling jacket (like trying to start at 40 below) Simple turbos work fine, because even tho the air is hotter (minor bad thing) more oxygen is available, thus more fuel can be injected and more power. Intercoolers (technically after coolers - but I'm not wearing asbestos underware this week) make more power - but only if you are pushing the oxygen limits by fuel such as in tractor pulling engines. Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. You now are merely using the excess oxygen you have already paid the energy loss's to pump and convert to piston pressure, and so additional fuel adds more output than might be initially expected. Plus, the extra heat and violence in combustion helps better combust the liquid fuel drawing even more power out ot the existing fuel. Works fine - thousands of RV's, light utility trucks and tractor pulling engines have been doing it for years. Bolt on, instant no muss no fuss no brainer extra power. - ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:27:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Stelite Valves and Propane Propane burns at about the same temp as gasoline. See on line exhaustive gasoline faq available at many sites. It also has about the same energy per pound, just less pounds per gallon. Also, depending on who you believe, octane of 112 or higher. Costs less per gallon, by it for my RV at a dollar a gallon including tax. What's the price of premium plus 104 octane boost? Just a thought. Why stelite on conversions. No lubricating lead was a minor concern. Propane conversions typically are in heavy duty applications running at near full power for extended periods of time, thus are at much higher than normal temps Ford on its FT series gasoline truck engines (50's thru 70's) had both intake and exhaust stelite inserts for the load temp wear problem. - ----- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Kalle Pihlajasaari Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:53:05 +0200 (sat) Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction Hi All, > Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an > excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. > Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. > (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). > > You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in > proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a > throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto > inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite > until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it > requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( > compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. I know of small diesels (VW Golf/Rabbit) that would when in a real worn state actually run on engine oil that was breathed into the air filter gallery from the crank case due to worn rings and even after the EFI cutoff solenoid was off and no more injection took place the engine would keep going without any governing effect either (lots of power) and the only way to kill the engine was to stall it in high gear with all the brakes. A real supprise for a little old lady driver I'm sure :-) Cheers - -- Kalle Pihlajasaari kalle@xxx.za Interface Products Box 15775, Doornfontein, 2028, South Africa +27 (11) 402-7750 Fax: +27 (11) 402-7751 ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 13:13:00 PDT Subject: Re: net etiquette <<< This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris >>> And now the originator is offended, and on and on- so the wisdom of following basic net etiquette should be quite clear by now! Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 11:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 >------------------------------ > >From: David Crocombe >Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:41:39 +1000 >Subject: Acceleration of Vehicles > >I was wondering how you measured the acceleration of your dragster. >This is something I was planning to do with an Analog devices >accelerometer. >Any information would be appreciated. The reason I used the 3 number is that my drag modeling program says that my rig would develop about 2.7-2.8 g's just off the line. I'm running a blown big block, and do drive it on the street. I think we should look at what we can do more than what it's possible functions are when we're done, with a maximum of flexibility built in if possible. Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. Harry Browne for president 96! ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:48:09 +0200 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 tom cloud wrote: > > [ snip ] > > >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the > >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of > >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. > > I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better > when the humididity was hi. > this is possible - actually I think it's true - but what about the magic numbers cubic inch or cm of water / liter of engine at what rpm and should I add more or less when increasing the rpm ? does anybody know something about this ? bye charley ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: Math Question You have just described the evolution from the normally aspirated I/C engine to one that is turbocharged to one that has a turbine assist for more than just increasing the pressure of the charge (ie, adds mechanical work too) to the turbine engine. It happened a while ago in aviation. :) John On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Jim Butler wrote: > > >From: John Napoli[SMTP:jgn@xxx.net] > >Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 11:15 PM > >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >Subject: Re: Math Question > > > > > > If we were able to utilize a third of the waste heat, wouldn't that make a > > big difference? Instead of raising CAFE with smaller and lighter cars, we > > would raise it by being more efficient. I doubt that all the EFI software > > in the world will make much more MPG than we see right now. I would like > > to see something intelligent about using the waste heat. > > > In a relatively old textbook that I have on heat engines (40's or 50's > era) there's a discussion of the idea of following an IC with a gas-turbine. > The context wasn't like that of a turbocharger, but rather with the turbine > shaft connected though a mechanical drive to the driveshaft, hence combining > the output of the two for useful work. > > FWIW, > > Jim > > -- > Jim Butler (butler@xxx.com) > ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 21:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea Tom, I think, what you are proposing is hardware and software that will dyno tune the engine as you drive. Kinda like having a personal staff of performance engineers in a black box to continuously search for that state of "ultimate tune" for your hot rod. I do see potential problems though. For starters, if the system had all the sensors needed to determine the "state of ultimate tune", how long would it take the cpu to find it?? People that dyno tune engines on a regular baises (TODD) would have a very good idea of this. I don't, but I'll guess any way. Let say 20 full throttle quater mile runs just to get maxium dead stop acceleration. There are lots of things to change and adjust, right?. I've done this manually in my early hotrod years. You could spend a whole weekend adjusting and evaluating things. I'm assuming that the system is told a few things and given some baseline parameters to work within. This would make an excellent excuse for a speeding ticket, "My EEPROM got erased officer, so I needed to hold 155mph for 20 minutes to adjust the upper end of my fuel map." I think you get my point, even with a fast cpu it's going to take a few runs to set every thing up. I've been told differently, but I honestly believe the GM TPI system does this to a certian extent with ignition timeing. I've experienced and read (or imagined that I read) that ignition timeing is bumped up in small increments from a baseline value until knock is detected. Then it's retarded a fixed amount and the process starts over again. This is done, I believe, to make the best use of the gas being currently used under the actual current conditions. If GM isn't doing this, remember you herd it from me first:) I would be interested in exploring this futher. It is certianly possible with todays off the shelf components. This would be a DIY'ers dream come true. GMD ------------------------------ From: Gordon Couger Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 22:26:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction >> Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. Since a diesel runs with an >> excess of oxygen, with the right fuel, you can make more power. >> Lots more power - like 25% more without busting a wrench. >> (Check BI FUEL references on the internet). >> >> You merely meter propane to the intake air of a diesel engine in >> proportion to the EXTRA power you would like to make - like a >> throttle plate NOS system, without the NOS. Since the auto >> inanition temp of propane is ridiculously high, it won't ignite >> until you introduce it to the fire from the injected fuel. Since it >> requires a relatively rich mixture to sustain combustion ( >> compared to gasoline) a lean mixture is not prone to backfiring. > It works great. Just watch your exuast gas temperture. You can melt down a turbo or and engin this way. I don't know if it is still being done but in the 60's & 70's it was used to get you through the "hard spots" by some folks. If they didn't over use it they seemed to get by pretty well. It would be interesting to see what you could do with propane injection and water injection to keep the temperatures under control. One thing I wonder about with water injection is high pressure steam is pretty corosive stuff. I would worry about piston, valve and turbo errosion. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 20:42:30 -0700 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 - -> From: hoss karoly > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > Date: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 12:48 PM Try metering it as a linear percentage of fuel you inject. This will give you a single tuning factor - the per cent you wish to inject. All other factors - temp, air flow etc. will have been solved by the EFI. Most written research talks about water injection as a relationship between fuel and water. After all there is a strong correlation between fuel consumed and EXCESS heat available for conversion. This method will allow you to start small, find out what YOUR engine likes and not have to go crazy trying to come up with a complete control system. May not be optimum, but it will go a long way to solving the problem. Besides, if as the skeptics say it only works as an anti-detonant, then you have not invested a lot into putting theory to the pavement. - ---- Cut here - personal comment follows ----- This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Jemikhaas@xxx.com (Michael Haas) Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 23:36:38 Subject: 6811 Disassembler Hi, Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using Base 64. Thank You Very Much Michael J. Haas ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #282 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".