DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 24 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 285 In this issue: RE: Learning Systems RE: 6811 Disassembler RE: net etiquette RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 MAP Re: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea Re: self tuning efi Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: MAP RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #284 RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 MAP re: Fog Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 Re: Politics See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:38:18 +-200 Subject: RE: Learning Systems Bot being up with this stuff.. does it mean if it's patented we cant use = it???? or does it mean that we can use it for our own fun, but not sell = it? (or if we do pay royalties), or would we have to pay to even use it = for fun.... If you get my drift? Mark ;-) - ---------- From: Dirk Wright[SMTP:wright@xxx.gov] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 9:41 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Learning Systems On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, David Crocombe wrote: >=20 > It would be interesting to play with this kind of learning > in relation to cars. The vehicles could then be self tuning > depending on environment, load, parameter drift, wear or > whatever. I guess traction control and antilock brakes are > a step in this direction of making cars more intelligent. As an examiner at the patent office, I work in the automatic = transmisison=20 field, as well as manual transmissions. Adaptive controllers are well=20 documented in the prior art, infact the Chrysler minivan was an adaptive = transmission that adjusts for wear in the frictional members to maintain = an optimum shift each time. There are others that sense a driving = "style"=20 and adjust shift timing to meet that style. There are numerous adaptive=20 engine control schemes, also, but I don't work in that specific field,=20 although all of the automatic transmissions have an engine related=20 component.=20 If I can be helpful in locating some patents for you, please let me = know. *************************************************************************= *** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 = 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman = House *************************************************************************= *** ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:18:15 +-200 Subject: RE: 6811 Disassembler Could somebody send me a base 64 thingy in either UUE or mimed? (and its not cos I want to go thro' alt.bin.. etc!) Mark (who realy should have got hold of one of these things long ago! Byeeeee! - ---------- From: Michael Haas[SMTP:Jemikhaas@xxx.com] Sent: Saturday, September 21, 1996 1:37 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: 6811 Disassembler Hi, Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using Base 64. Thank You Very Much Michael J. Haas ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:38:46 +-200 Subject: RE: net etiquette Thanx for saying it Todd. - ---------- From: Todd King[SMTP:Todd_King@xxx.com] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 10:13 PM To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu Subject: Re: net etiquette <<< This signature line censored because it offended a government employee Robert Harris >>> And now the originator is offended, and on and on- so the wisdom of following basic net etiquette should be quite clear by now! Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:43:32 +-200 Subject: RE: Ignition timing in conjunction with Got my Spitfire SUs jetted to cope withthe exhaust/cam/inlet = trupets/porting/every other bloody thing. Paid a lot of moneyf for it too. Took the hood off, sat a bit of wire in = the top of the vacuum pot, looked where it sat, span the needle up in = the lathe and rubbed several thou' off it with fine wet and dry paper... = did both.. runs a hell of a lot better now than it did after the tuners = (who did a brill job of the other cars we got) did it, by guess work and = sandpaper! Mark I don't recommend this! - ---------- From: Todd Knighton[SMTP:knighton@xxx.com] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 10:41 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Ignition timing in conjunction with >=20 > Now, rich is a real problem for me. It's when you wanna "GO" ! So, > this is where I thought you'd measure acceleration or torque (strain > gauge on motor mount). But, Todd says no. =20 An interesting experience that may prove a point. A car we set up and dyno'd by the power method had some pretty wierd cams on 8.0/1 compression ratio, and turbo'd. the thing loved fuel to make power. Peak power was found at about 8 or 9/1 air fuel. put it on the road and it was extremely sluggish. Due to the air/fuel.=20 Recalibrated the thing to the correct air fuels for the appropriate boost/compression ratio/cams and it all of a sudden ran great. =20 figure this one out. It made better power with more fuel, but didn't accelerate as well. I've seen this one a few times. In this case the torque measurement in car (namely seat of the pants) worked better than the dyno. You can take this one either way, but I still feel that there is a given set of numbers for each combo for air/fuel ratio's that works best. Don't work so hard to find them, just program them in, then let your EGO find them. > I don't know how he would do a real time feedback system, but he = apparently=20 > thinks a knock sensor is good for this. Again, the knock sensor is good for us in our application where the knock is so close to peak power. Especially when we see 18 - 21/1 effective compression ratio's on boost, on pump fuels (92-93 octane), lets talk twiddle fingers here. In other situations, as I mentioned earlier, we've seen peak power and the knock limit be 20 degrees apart. It's typically on low compression ratio or really bad combustion chamber designs, but there's a lot of those out there. > Mebbe so. Seems to me this is more a function of > timing than mixture. [Now, there's a variable I haven't been = considering > -- i.e. timing!!] Knock sensors are used for timing only. The only car I've seen that does anything else with it is SAAB, they decrease boost and enrichen the mixture upon knock as well as work with timing later. but the try to leave the timing up as far as possibly under the other conditions. > All I'm thinking of right now is A/F ratios. > So, you guys that DO know, jump in here and help us out!) Try 14.7 - 15 or even up into the 16's if your engine can handle it, it depends on combustion chambers and flame propogation. But at light throttle run as lean as possible with no misfire. Go to 12.8 to 13.3 (pump fuel numbers) for max power and torque normally aspirated. Boosted, lower the air fuel proportionately. We air cooleds have to run down in the 11.4-11.6/1 range at 20 psi with very good intercooling to maintain peak power and reliability. We get slightly better power at about 11.8 - 12/1 but the combustion chambers get too hot. Water cooled's would probably be happy at 11.8-12.0/1. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:44:47 +-200 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv (600 cc flat twin (BMW M/C engine)) ;-) Mark - ---------- From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@xxx.edu] Sent: Friday, September 20, 1996 6:12 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 [ snip ] >On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better when the humididity was hi. Tom ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:01:46 +-200 Subject: MAP What are sensible MAP values? I am trying to decide what pressure transducer to use, and need to know what range MAP pressures are in. I'm sorry for having to ask, but until I get my library in this country, I'm a little stuck for information. Thanks in advance to anybody with any info. PS I don't care what units you use, I'll convert them! TAL Mark ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 07:53:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea [ snip ] >I've head that O2 sensors can take up to 1sec to responsd... can someone >comment on this? (seems to be the slowest sensor...) > > > Thor Johnson Thor, I'm fixin' to sound like I know what I'm talking about -- I don't. That said: The EGO is supposed to be fast enough to respond to each pulse from each cylinder -- hence FOMOCO's SFI. My old town car had SFI and used an EGO in each exhaust manifold. According to the Ford book on emissions devices (don't know the name -- get it at the part$ house), it samples the mixture from each cylinder and adjusts same to achieve optimum fuel distribution. Tom ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:44:43 -0500 Subject: Re: self tuning efi [ snipetty - snip ] >I thought I was the first one to bring that idea up! Oh well. Yeah, but I thought of it first !! Tom "a legend in his own mind" Cloud ------------------------------ From: Gordon Couger Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:56:57 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 As I recall from my day in the air craft industry the power increase is from lowered altitude density (more O2 in the carb.). I also noticed that running a tractor at night often you could gain a gear on pulling the load. Showing a good deal more power was being produced. Where I was farming the day time altitude density would exceed 5,000 feet. 115 F and 15 percent humidity. Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@xxx.edu >Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv (600 cc flat twin (BMW M/C engine)) ;-) >---------- >From: tom cloud[SMTP:cloud@xxx.edu] > > [ snip ] > >>On a side note, I notice that a number of the water injection posts over the >>last week or so seem to imply that water injection can get more power out of >>a normally aspirated engine. I don't think that is true. > >I know on my motorcycle(s) -- they always ran noticeably better >when the humididity was hi. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:28:06 -0500 Subject: Re: MAP > > >What are sensible MAP values? > Well, lessee: depends on what your sensor reads. If it reads absolute, then it would read 0" mercury at pure vacuum and would read about 29" HG at atmospheric pressure. Most sensors I know about read absolute. If it reads "gauge" (i.e. a reading relative to the current atmos. pressure), then it would read 0" at atmospheric and 29" under total vacuum. Your vacuum gauge you have in your tool kit is a bourdon tube gauge and read "gauge" pressure, not absolute, so, it reads zero when not connected to anything. When connected to a non-blown (i.e. "normally aspirated") engine, it should read maybe 20" - 24" HG during idle or cruise. Higher (greater vacuum) for deceleration, and less for acceleration. So, one atmosphere = 29" mercury = 760 mm HG = 760 torr = 14.7 psi. If you're normally aspirated, you only need to measure from about zero to one atmosphere. If you're blown -- then ... gotta know boost pressure. If 14.7 psi = one atmosphere, then boost of 15 psi means a total range of 0 to a little more than 2 atmospheres. Tom ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:49:50 -0400 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv ^^^^ That's the secret. A colder charge is a denser charge (more oxygen, and with carbs more fuel) so there is more power. The humidity can help ensure no det- onation, but does not actaully add power. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #284 > >From: "Woodd, Michael" >Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 08:05:00 +1200 >Subject: RE: Tom Cloud's self tuning EFI Idea > >Excuse me? Anyway, > >>I do see potential problems though. For starters, if the system had all the >>sensors needed to determine the "state of ultimate tune", how long would it >>take the cpu to find it?? People that dyno tune engines on a regular baises >>(TODD) would have a very good idea of this. I don't, but I'll guess any >way. >>Let say 20 full throttle quater mile runs just to get maxium dead stop >>acceleration. There are lots of things to change and adjust, right?. I've >>done this manually in my early hotrod years. You could spend a whole >weekend >>adjusting and evaluating things. > >All a matter of software - the algorithm used. Actually I was thinking more >of a >circuit racing application, cos thats what I'm into, being as a car should >be nothing more than a tool for the driver, right? ;-) > >And thats why I stressed the importance of having accurate measurements, >cos if they aren't, then your "perfect" algorithm is going to do funny >things, like >take longer, or maybe even head in the wrong direction. > >I plan on starting by simply investigating relationships between one sensor >and >another reading, e.g. acceleration vs vertical g, to account for road bumps, >difference tween linear g vs wheel derived acceleration should give us the >gravity vector that tells us we're going up/down hill (I think, like I said, >don't >know the physics well yet). >My end system will be a combination of these little black boxes, and for >prototyping they may be just that. It might be an idea worth considering to have a sensor on a wheel that's not a drive wheel if that's possible for actual vehicle speed as compared to what could be completely spurious numbers. "a society that will trade a little freedom for a little order deserves neither" Thomas Jefferson Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? Two boobs and a country singer! Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 19:23:50 +-200 Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 Temperature didn't make as much difference as fog! I know... you have to be crazy to drive a 2cv flat out in mist / fog... but hey shit... it was fun hearing it SCREAM! Mark ;-) - ---------- From: Michael F. Sargent[SMTP:MSargent@xxx.com] Sent: Monday, September 23, 1996 4:50 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #277 > Same thing... 10 mph difference on a cold damp morning in a Citroen 2cv ^^^^ That's the secret. A colder charge is a denser charge (more oxygen, and with carbs more fuel) so there is more power. The humidity can help ensure no det- onation, but does not actaully add power. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:50:34 est Subject: MAP >What are sensible MAP values? Assuming normal aspiration and sane camshafts, then idle at ~33 kPa (absolute), somewhere between 15-20 kPaA on over-run. WOT is 101.325 kPaA on a standard day or atmospheric pressure on any other day :) ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:56:44 est Subject: re: Fog > Temperature didn't make as much difference as fog! Fog increases the specific heat of air. This will increase the charge density simply because the air is absorbing the same heat (from the inlet system) but will have a lesser increase in temperature, hence greater density. ------------------------------ From: hoss karoly Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:13:48 +0200 Subject: Re: Fuel Air Diesel engine induction Gordon Couger wrote: > > >> Dirty little diesel secret. Propane. > It works great. Just watch your exuast gas temperture. You can melt down > a turbo or and engin this way. I don't know if it is still being done > but in the 60's & 70's it was used to get you through the "hard spots" > by some folks. If they didn't over use it they seemed to get by pretty > well. what would you suggest to keep my exh-temp at ? do you know some base-lines like max temp ? > > It would be interesting to see what you could do with propane injection > and water injection to keep the temperatures under control. it definitely will be > One thing I wonder about with water injection is high pressure steam is > pretty corosive stuff. I would worry about piston, valve and turbo > errosion. I don't worry about it too much . I don't plan to stop the engine right after full throttle operation so she'll get time to get clean ------------------------------ From: "John Faubion" Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 23:06:53 -0500 Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V1 #281 > The reason I used the 3 number is that my drag modeling program says > that my rig would develop about 2.7-2.8 g's just off the line. I'm running > a blown big block, and do drive it on the street. Of course the computer could never be wrong. Right? Keep in mind that of several different drag racing calculators we tried, most over estimated the acceleration force of my dragster. In fact, one of them predicted 9, yes NINE g's on launch! These calculated forces usually don't consider the cushioning effect of tires and suspension. > Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. You know as much as I'm against the Clintons, I don't think this list it the place for the political BS. John Faubion jfaubion@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: M HILL Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 08:57:41 GMT0BST Subject: Re: Politics >Clinton doesn't want anything Hitler didn't have. >What do you get with Bob Dole, Bill Clinton, and Dolly Parton in the same room? >Two boobs and a country singer! >Harry Browne for president 96! Talltom Can we leave the politics out of this, not just because this is for the discussion of DIY EFI, but some of us are not interested. Not all of us live in the US you know. Martin ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #285 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".