DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, 28 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 290 In this issue: Bosch L-jetronic problems Re: Wires and such Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems RE: 351W CARBED ENGINE PRO Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems RE:Re: Chip operating temperatures Re: AC Delco Checking fuel pressure? Re: EEC IV reprogramming Re: Wires and such Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems Checking fuel pressure? Checking fuel pressure? Re: EEC IV reprogramming Re: Wires and such General EFI information Q Re: EEC IV reprogramming *** [THE LIST] *** Re: Wires and such Re: Checking fuel pressure? Re: Combustion chamber heat See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Willis Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:25:07 +1100 Subject: Bosch L-jetronic problems Hi all, I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature rises to a certain point. There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they connect), what is it and how does it operate. I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help. Regards Tim Willis Newcastle, Australia tcw@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: "David M Parrish" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:25:08 +0000 Subject: Re: Wires and such > From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) > Buy your wire from Newark, Mouser, Digi-Key, etc. I'd stay away from > the wire from auto parts houses and Wal-Mart -- unless I needed it It's always a good idea to buy quality wire. In aircraft, the norm now is teflon covered wire with fine strands plated with either tin or silver. Perfect for engine compartments, since teflon melts at such a high temperature and won't burn. > The catalogs will list the temp rating of the insulation (generally, > the higher the temp, the stiffer it is). Be sure the wire is plated > and get the highest/smallest number of strands so it'll be flexible. > ** Don't ** use solid wire !!! It'll break. Don't drape the wire > across exhaust manifolds, exhaust crossovers, EGR, etc. Cover the > ends with heat shrink or such to keep crud from wicking up under the > insulation into the wire. Good advice. > Really ought to avoid crimp connectors. Should solder all connections. Have to draw the line here. In aircraft, which usually have higher vibration levels than cars and electrical failures are _much_ more serious, crimped connections are the norm. The problem with soldered connections is the narrow trasition point from solder to free strands. At that point, the wire can't flex very well, so vibration tends to crack the strands. The point with crimp connectors is to use high quality connectors (like Amp) and a good crimping tool. - --- David Parrish Don't ask how much it costs to wire an airplane... ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Shaun Brady wrote: > I use thermally reflective coatings in my motorcycle racing engine, but > didn't have a good baseline prior to applying them and don't have hard > numbers on the improvement. Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? Vizard feels that they are worth a 5-10% power > improvement. The coatings are relatively cheap(about $15 per surface) when > compared to what must be spent for similar improvements. Can you give more details of exactly what brand and type of coatings you used? Were they Jet Hot, or ceramic, or what? Thanks for your description of your actual experiences with coatings. I'm interested in applying them to my 914 someday, so I'm willing to learn of other's experiences. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 07:43:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Re[2]: Chip operating temperatures > > Just my few cents worth. Any of you lot out there ever heard about > spaghetti strand (a common name). Comes in long tubes like > heatshrink, except its woven fibreglass and it doesn't shrink. This > is ideal for containing bunches of wire (or a single wire) in hot In the electronics industry that's called 'spaghetti' tubing. It was around long before the shrinkable variety and it comes in many varieties, including the fiberglass type you speak of. In the Newark catalog it's listed in the index under 'insulating tubing'. Also called sleeving. Note that the wires will still get hot, and the insulation may still melt, so if there's more than one wire in the tubing, they may melt together and short out. The teflon tubing is good to 260 C (500 F); the PVC to 105 C (220 F); the fiberglass doesn't have a rating (in the Newark cat). The split polyethylene tubing is rated to 80 C (175 F). There's lots of heat shrink out there, too. Some polyolefin (electron irradiated polyethylene, tougher, higher temp resistance) shrinkable is rated to 135 C (275 F); kynar to 175 C (350 F); the typical PVC is rated to 105 C (220 F). Might try making something to suspend wiring above or away from real hot stuff -- like maybe use spark plug wire standoff or such. ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:02:37 +0000 Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems The "Bosch Automotive Electrical Systems" handbook indicates that if you have a L-jetronic Cold-start valve it is limited by a "Thermo-time switch" which is an electrically heated bimetal switch controlled via the ignition and starting switch. "During an actual cold start, the heat generated by the built-in heating winding is mainly responsible for the 'on' period (switch-off, for instance, at -20 deg C after approx 7.5s)..." Sounds to me that if your problem is continuing past 10 seconds or so that the cold start circuit isn't the problem, but the warm-up phase is. Information for this 1-2 minutes of enrichment comes from the temperature sensor. This is all from the handbook - not first hand experience. Good Luck - -mike > Hi all, > > I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the > Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an > engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it > is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while > the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature > rises to a certain point. > > There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 > inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they > connect), what is it and how does it operate. > > I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. > > I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly > it would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks for any help. > > > Regards > > > Tim Willis > Newcastle, Australia > tcw@xxx.au > > > - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Mike Fahrion mfahrion@xxx.com/ B&B Electronics Mfg Co ph.(815) 433-5100 ext.215 fax (815) 434-7094 707 Dayton Road PO Box 1040 Ottawa IL 61350 - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:50:28 -0500 Subject: RE: 351W CARBED ENGINE PRO EGO ==>> exhaust gas oxygen sensor. Unless your car is over, say, 20 years old, it's probably got one. If you're still using your computer (engine controller), the EGO's being used by that, so it may be difficult to use as an indicator. But if you're carburetted ... I don't think your controller is doing anything (if it's still controlling your timing, you may have other problems). Otherwise, the EGO will be in your exhaust pipe somewhere pretty close to the exhaust manifold. If it has more that two wires, it has an internal heater to bring it up to temperature (only works when real hot!). You can read about the EGO in any book on emissions stuff. Stoichiometric means all of whatever is put into a chemical reaction us used up -- no left overs. So, for gasoline, a ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel is the exact ratio where there is the least unburnt fuel -- least noxious byproducts. It is also where newer 3-stage cats work -- they don't work at all off stoich. But, power is made with more fuel than stoich (i.e. A/F > 14.7:1); and economy is made with less fuel (A/F > 14.7:1). The EGO's output is a voltage function inversely related to the amount of oxygen in the exhaust compared to the amount of oxygen in the outside air around it. If you're running leaner (more O2) the voltage is lower. Richer = higher output voltage. Stoich (14.7:1 A:F ratio) is about .45 - .5 volts. The output is not linear and steeply changes after leaving stoich, but people use it all the time to help tune their machines. It's output is "high impedance". That means it produces very little current and any resistive loading will cause it to produce lower voltages, resulting in erroneous readings. So, to use it, you must have a meter with an input impedance greater than 1 megohm. Every digital meter I know of has in input Z (Z is electronics term for impedance) of 10 megohms (some are 11). Analog meters, unless they have internal amplifiers, are rated in "ohms per volt". A Simpson 260 is rated at 20,000 ohms/volt. To find out it's input Z, multiply the switch (attenuator) position by the ohms/volts. So, on the 10 volt scale, a 20,000 ohm/volt meter would have in input Z of 20,000 * 10 = 200 thousand ohms. That means an analog meter won't do. Steve wrote: >Tell me more about the projection, if you don't mind.. What do you want to know? > > I have a DPM (digital panel meter) measuring the output of my EGO. > > You can get one from Hosfelt Electronics: [800-524-6464 (FAX > > 800-524-5414) > > $14.95, their part number 39-165] or use any digital voltmeter or > > analog meter with an input impedance of 10 megohms or so. I > > connected > >Where is the EGO? built into the car? > >The DPM is $14.95, and it connects to your EGO? > > > This's probably not it, but the EGO helps set the system up. Look > > for about .5 volts for cruise (that's stoichiometric: 14.7:1 A:F > > ratio). Up to about .8 or 1 volt for power and maybe down to > > about .2 or so for deceleration. [snip] ------------------------------ From: "Michael D. Porter" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:00:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems Tim Willis wrote: > > Hi all, > > I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the > Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an > engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it > is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while > the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature > rises to a certain point. On the Japanese L-Jetronics, and I'd presume Bosch to be similar, the cold start injector only opens when the block temp sensor is below something like 65 deg. F, and the starter is engaged. And, further, there's a bimetallic switch in series between the starter switch power and the cold-start input line, so that if the engine doesn't fire after several seconds of cranking, that input line shuts off, to prevent flooding. The only time the cold-start injector should give any problem after the engine's started is if it's leaking. When I worked for Toyota, we saw intermittent missing after a couple of years of running which had nothing to do with the injection system--all related back to how fuel was injected--created some carbon deposits on the valves and seats. Clean the valves and it was okay. On this, might want to check the temp sensor in the block and see what its resistance is (should be high--25-30K ohms, I think), and check the cold-start for proper flow and resistance to leakage when the fuel system is pressurized. > There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 > inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they > connect), what is it and how does it operate. That would probably be the idle air-bypass. Little stepper motor turns a sliding plate in the orifice to control bypass air, and therefore control idle speed. - -- My other Triumph doesn't run, either.... ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:32:30 -0500 Subject: RE:Re: Chip operating temperatures somebody wrote: >>Just think of the power dissipation from four coil drivers at say >>40% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (dwell = 4mS/Wasted-Spark) and say eight >>injector drivers at 75% dutycycle at 6000 rpm (Fuel p/w = 15mS/SEFI) >>Typically, a 4 cylinder ECU can be sucking up to 10 Amps when the >>engine's really revving, I don't have figures to hand for 8 cylinder >>systems and of course all these figures depend on coil/injector type >>and so on, but we're still talking about passing a lot of current >>through the system. 120 watts can have pretty serious heating effects >>on the box especially if it's mounted in an area of static airflow. Krister Wikstrom replied: >I think the 120W is not dissipated at the driver location, most goes to the injectors. If the driver sinks 10A >and drops maybe 0.6V, the "warming" power is 6W - right? Using some low RDSon MOSFETs etc. may have even lower voltage drop and power dissipation. > An' then I says: I've not been reading this thread real thoroughly so I missed the original post. A switch dissipates *NO* power, but a transistor is not a perfect switch. An injector may take an ampere pulse, but I think their holding current is less (don't know about this). Like Kris said, assuming 1 amp: any good switching power transistor will have a VCE(sat) (that's the voltage across it when it's ON) of less than 1 volt, maybe .3 to .6 volts. Switching FET might be less. Anyway: the power dissipated at 1 amp would be 1 amp times .6 volts or 600 milliwatts. If one driver is pulsing several injectors, the power would be proportionally higher. The *good* thing about this is that those transistors can be bolted to the case and the heat will mostly go outside. It's the VLSI and TTL chips that get hot and have no direct path to the outside for that heat. They probably do more to raise the internal temp than anything else. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:45:00 -0500 Subject: Re: AC Delco >Hi! > >Someone on the list works by AC Delco. I have some question.... Please send >me the mailaddress. > >Thanks >Walter Walter, I have some addresses -- but your e:mail addr doesn't work for me?? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:39:17 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA - -mike ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:42:31 -0500 Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming Dan, I decided to send this to ebberbuddy. I think it's interesting: (my erudite thoughts are sprinkled here and there). >On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: > > ............................ >> >> > Q: are you wanting to know the 8061 opcodes because you would like to >> > change the way the eec handles the information it receives? .. >> > ... or do you just want the eec to 'respond' differently to a set of >> > inputs? >> > >> > if you answer is 'yes' to the second maybe i can provide a shred of >> > information. >> > >> >> Probably the first -- but you do the best you can. I think all of us >> would like to know enough to completely modify the unit. I think >> everything is there: sensors and outputs, just needs a little TLC >> from the owner to get what he wants. Then we will get into how >> to measure and interpret the changes ?? >> >> But, it's probably enough (for a while) to be able to change some >> of the tables. For one thing, if one could do this, he could >> use used EEC's from the junk yard on any motor. > >if this is your goal you could probably get by with two things > >1) right spark at the right time >2) proper pulsewidth from the injectors > >it happens that the eec gets 1 and only 1 timing signal from the tfi >unit. it is called the pip (Profile Ignition Pickup ??). on a 4 cyl the >output of the pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, on a 6 cyl the output of the >pip is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000 RPM, and finally on an 8cyl the output (and >you guessed it) is 45 - 55Hz @ 1000RPM (oh: the duty cycle on all of these >should be 50%) these numbers are true for all ford engines except the >SEFI 8cyl (the SEFI 6 cylinders are the same. the 8 cyl must need >tighter timing indexes) > >it also happens that the return (from the eec) to the tfi module (the >SPOUT or SPark OUT) that sets the timing from the computer (this is the >wire you pull before you set your base timing) has the exact same >specifications as the pip. >what i gleened from this is that the pip does 2 things: >1) it lets the eec know how fast the engine is turning (frequency alone) >2) it gives a base signal to be sent back to the tfi after being delayed > a bit. this delay or phase change (realitive to the pip) is what lets > the eec control timing, but indirectly, the tfi is doing _most_ of the > work. > >mike wesley has said .. > "you'll see that ford does not use the CPU as it was designed (to be > used?) . . . they waste so much CPU it's pitiful" > >i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a >bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) >the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" >for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is >done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real >programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. > >moral is: if you want to make your own controller (and i'm interested) >all you have to do is figure out the "TFI secret" and half your job is >done. the injector pulsing is a piece of cake compared to trying to fire >a spark at the proper time ... every time. > > oops. back to your statement: > >i think you CAN use any eec with any other engine (all the fuel injectors >are in banks of two ... choose the proper size and fuel pressure ... pick >the proper TFI ( is there a difference??) and adjust for wiring >differences.. <;-) > >i'm planning to 'try' this my self. i have a 2.3L merkur and am >planning to swap a 2.9 liter ... and add a turbo. the problem i faced >was that the 2.3 had a neat little "boost solenide??" that the eec would >deactivate when detonation was encountered. a very useful output, but >nothing of the same on any other eec controller .. not to mention the 2.9 >doesn't even have a knock sensor. solution: use the 2.3 computer ... i >was stunned when all the "problems" i had imagined weren't actually >there. the only drawback now is that the 2.3 controller has "peak and >hold" injectors in banks of 2. If i was to hook up the injectors (lets >say peak and hold) in banks of 3 instead of 2, would the eec still >provide the proper current to each injector, or just provide the same old >current . . . I don't know) > > >......................................... > > > >> >> How does Mike Wesley's "calibrator" work? It supposedly plugs into >> a "calibration" port on the side of the EEC which allows switching >> out the program memory and using external memory (I may be wrong >> on this??). >> >it sounds like a "super chip" fpga mapping to an eeprom that you can >program by hooking up you computer com port. i'm sure it doesn't >reprogram the 8061, but i don't know :) > >later - > >> >-dan "i want control" stokes What's a TFI ?? I assume it's "tuned fuel injection" not "taco f**t implosion"? I'd like to know if Mikes's doo-dad will work with SEFI. If he's done what he seems to have done, all I gotta do is fiddle with his deal. I think there's a market (albeit small) of us wackos that are technical enough to really be able to play with the controller at the software level -- given immortality and fort knox. So, if Mike or someone could make a box and "open architecture" a'la the IBM-PC, there would surely grow a humonguous cult following. I think Ford otta look at the IBM / MAC debacle and consider making their systems easier to hack. I'd like to put SEFI in, not 'cause it's good for power, but because it's there! Tom ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:39:49 -0500 Subject: Re: Wires and such [ snip ] >> Really ought to avoid crimp connectors. Should solder all connections. > >Have to draw the line here. In aircraft, which usually have higher >vibration levels than cars and electrical failures are _much_ >more serious, crimped connections are the norm. The problem with >soldered connections is the narrow trasition point from solder to >free strands. At that point, the wire can't flex very well, so >vibration tends to crack the strands. The point with crimp connectors >is to use high quality connectors (like Amp) and a good crimping >tool. > >--- >David Parrish >Don't ask how much it >costs to wire an airplane... Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one (Forget who really makes it). ------------------------------ From: Ron Madurski Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 11:45:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Bosch L-jetronic problems : : :Hi all, : :I am in need of info on when and how the cold start injector works on the :Bosch L-jetronic, as used in my Rover 3500 SD1. I have just completed an :engine rebuild and there is a fairly bad miss while the engine is cold, it :is there through the rev range. Does the cold start only work once while :the starter is activated or does it continue to pulse until temperature :rises to a certain point. I think that once the car starts it is off. : :There is what appears to be some sort of air bypass, aluminium about 2 :inches by 4 inches, and two 1/2 inch ID hoses (can't remember shere they :connect), what is it and how does it operate. I think it controls the amount of air allowed when the throttle plate is closed. Check to make sure that your injectors are all firing. I had this problem on my old Volvo 240 (LH-Jetronic). When it was cold the injectors fired very erratically and it ran like crap until it warmed up. It took a new brain to make it work properly. Apparently 2 of the connectors which look identical and connect identically had been swapped which is an instant brain fry. So if the brain is dead make SURE that the wires are in the right locations. : :I am an electrical/computer engineer so the more technical the better. I'm not so you get what you pay for... : :I am trying to sort this out this weekend so if anyone can help quickly :it would be greatly appreciated. You can get those brains used from several places, don't buy a new one. : :Thanks for any help. : : :Regards : : :Tim Willis :Newcastle, Australia :tcw@xxx.au : : - -- Ron Madurski rmadursk@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:02:09 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA - -mike ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 12:02:09 +0000 Subject: Checking fuel pressure? Sorry for the rather stupid question but.... Can a regular tire pressure gauge be used to check fuel pressure at the shraeder(sp?) valve or is a special guage required. Was thinking/hoping that the tire gauge would work, at least once, maybe fuel would disolve its seal. TIA - -mike ------------------------------ From: Joe Aubertin Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, tom cloud wrote: > Dan, I decided to send this to ebberbuddy. I think it's interesting: > (my erudite thoughts are sprinkled here and there). > > What's a TFI ?? I assume it's "tuned fuel injection" not "taco f**t > implosion"? Thick Film Ignition module. Also i find this thread VERY interesting as i want MORE CONTROL also. Keep the info flowing :) Joe AUbertin '88 MGT > > I'd like to know if Mikes's doo-dad will work with SEFI. If he's done > what he seems to have done, all I gotta do is fiddle with his deal. > I think there's a market (albeit small) of us wackos that are technical > enough to really be able to play with the controller at the software > level -- given immortality and fort knox. So, if Mike or someone could > make a box and "open architecture" a'la the IBM-PC, there would surely > grow a humonguous cult following. I think Ford otta look at the IBM / > MAC debacle and consider making their systems easier to hack. > > I'd like to put SEFI in, not 'cause it's good for power, but because > it's there! > > Tom > ------------------------------ From: Steve Ciciora Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 13:14:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Wires and such > > Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and > want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's > not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that > works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one > (Forget who really makes it). > I once had to buy a mil-spec crimper to crimp a PTO6A-14-12C bendix connector to get power from a ER-2 (U-2) spy plane... I believe the crimper ran about $300! There is a difference in aircraft crimp connectors and automotive crimp connectors... - - Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: "Mike Fahrion" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:38:10 +0000 Subject: General EFI information Q Can anyone recommend a good source of basic information on EFI systems in US cars? I just finished reading the Bosch Automotive Electric/Electronics Systems handbook and would love to find a similar source of info on GM and Ford systems. Just a wee bit smarter than yesterday.... - -mike mfahrion@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:06:09 -0500 Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming *** [THE LIST] *** Man, did I stir sumpin up or what? Lots of people seem to be interested. Here is my current list of who I've found that are specifically interested in EEC-IV (or has offered an opinion). None of these has said they want out. I don't know which of these is getting duplicate postings because they are on diy_efi or FordNatics -- or both. I would like to think that all of you would subscribe to diy_efi?? I don't want to start a new list -- don't know how, don't wanna know how. I just wanna be able to fiddle with my Fords !! (Just like the rest of you.) I teach a class where students have to build a project (including a simple PCB). I can always tell who has experience -- the guy that wants to lay out a PCB or design a circuit doesn't have any. If he did, he'd know how time intensive it is and that a 3-1/2 month semester is too short (some folks do pull it off, though -- takes real intestinal fortitude). Well, I'd like to know all about the EEC. I know that if I had all the tools: code, assembler, C++ compiler, debugger, logic analyzer, 'scope, EPROM burner, computer, tools, and money (and I have all of those -- except for the code, assembler, debugger and money), I still wouldn't have the time. Seems like Mike's doo-dad is the best deal for the money -- if we could only get one. Isn't a real problem for me, though, since I'm not really quite ready for it just yet anyway. Josh Alex Cazin Derek Deeter Tom Cloud Dave Compton Jim Dibble Pat Craig Eid Terry Fair Gary Graham Todd King Todd Knighton Cliff Koch Jonathan Lloyd George Najarian Bob Nell James Pearl Bradford Peterson Sven Pruett Eric Riggert Steve Sadler Jody Shapiro "Dr. Shidel; BA, BS, MS, PhD" Dan Stokes James Weiler Donald Whisnant Travis Willis Thanks, Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:17:50 -0700 Subject: Re: Wires and such AMP makes a pretty good one for about 80 bucks. It comes with one set of dies for your regular "car type" crimp connectors and many other die sets are available, like for BNC's etc. It pays to use "real" connectors too. The AMP connectors give good results, and they make just about any connector you can think of. Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. Once you have used a real crimper on real connectors... well, the next time you are at Al's and you see that glorious $6.95 connector kit with the crimper and the the connectors you will enjoy snickering as you pass by. If you want a real good laugh, just ask the doofass behind the counter "hey, where do you keep the real crimpers". - -j- - ---------- > From: Steve Ciciora > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Wires and such > Date: Friday, September 27, 1996 12:14 PM > > > > > Okay, you said it, but did anyone get it?? If you're gonna crimp -- and > > want it to be reliable -- hafta use the right tool!! Trust me, it's > > not the Champ or Klein you gots in your tool box. A good tool that > > works on most crimp-ons costs between $35 and $50. Snap-ON sells one > > (Forget who really makes it). > > > > I once had to buy a mil-spec crimper to crimp a PTO6A-14-12C bendix > connector to get power from a ER-2 (U-2) spy plane... I believe > the crimper ran about $300! There is a difference in aircraft > crimp connectors and automotive crimp connectors... > - Steven Ciciora ------------------------------ From: smtjr@xxx.edu (steve m trindade) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:10:50 -0500 Subject: Re: Checking fuel pressure? mike, i am not sure if it would work or not, but I wouldn't recommend it. they do make special high pressure gauges specifically for measuring fuel pressure. in my experience i have never seen a test port that was a schrader valve anyway. there is another benefit to using the right test gauge. they screw on and seal and usually come with a fairly long hose. with this you can usually go for a drive with the gauge peeking from under the cowl of the hood so you can read while you drive. that's where you get your good information from. Steve Trindade (smtjr@xxx.edu) P1 Engineering Austin, Tx. USA ------------------------------ From: Shaun Brady Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:06:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat >Is your motorcycle engine air cooled? If so, did you run into problems >with the larger expansion/contraction of air cooled's parts? The motor is a Honda Hawk. 647 cc, Liquid cooled, aluminum, V-Twin, 3 Valves per cylinder. I assembled the engine at a local shop that sponsers me, and while it sat on the bench an old car oval track racer came in and shared his experiences with coatings. They were much more expensive in his day, and not widely known. They coated an aluminum headed small block chevy's pistons and combustion chambers. Initially they didn't see much of an improvement on the dyno, but they couldn't get the oil or water temperature into the normal range either. After they had revised the cooling systems and carb jetting, they saw a 35 hp improvement on a 500 hp motor. It startled me how close this comes to Vizards publications. This was a fully developed motor configuration they had been using for years. The Hawk motor was good for 71 Hp from 40 cubes. Stock was 42 Hp. The motor had 11.5:1 compression, a fairly radical cam, cleaned up ports, stock valves, low restriction exhaust and intake systems. The motor output is limited by the valve sizes, a really poor combustion chamber design, and an exhaust port with limitations similar to a Cleveland ford. I selected a piston manufactured from a material that allowed tighter piston-bore clearances, coated it, and assembled the motor with clearances on the tight side of recommended. >Can you give more details of exactly what brand and type of coatings you >used? Were they Jet Hot, or ceramic, or what? I used the Polydyn Coatings (713-694-3296), as mentioned in Vizards book. It was a very thin baked on coating, probably ceramic, probably serving a reflective rather than insulating function. Summit (330-630-3030) sells 3 oz bottles for less than $30. There are separate coatings for Aluminum and Iron. They are sprayed on and then baked at either 350 F (Al) or 450 F (Fe). Polydyn Coats Piston tops for $14, combustion chambers $28, valves $5 ea. They will also do the backside of valves and exhaust ports. I've seen Harley pistons for sale precoated with the other coating system Vizard mentions (Swain Technologies). Friction reducing coatings are also popular among motorcycle racers, but I've heard their useful life on piston skirts is fairly short. I spent more on the UPS than I did the coatings, and that was for little motorcycle parts. I'd like to do a 460 ford boat motor I'm building, but can't imagine the shipping costs this would involve, and will probably give the Summit coatings a try. I would think that everything you can do to keep the heat out of an air cooled motor would be a good thing. Vizard suggests that the secondary modifications allowed by coatings would improve power further yet. Things like narrower valve seats. Tighter piston clearances are another posibility. Do car guys use Nikasil bores yet? I see reference after reference to proffesional engine builders using these coatings, it is more than a fad. If you can find someone who specializes in your engine, and will sell you a set of coated pistons, assemble them to the clearances they've developed. Otherwise, your left with starting with the tight side of recommended. Good Luck SBrady ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #290 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".