DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, 1 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 293 In this issue: Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: DFI ECU Re: EEC IV reprogramming Re: Wires and such EEC-IV ? Re: EEC IV reprogramming Re: Chip operating temperatures Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: digital dashboard Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber heat Chevy EFI Mods Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Re: Chip operating temperatures Re: Chevy EFI Mods Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber heat re: Re: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dirk Wright Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 07:49:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Robert Harris wrote: > > Has anyone given any serious thought to using industrial strength > gas lasers or similar technology? Not quite relavent, but I heard that Saab uses the top of the piston as the negative electrode for the spark, so that it creates a spark from the top of the combustion chamber to the bottom (piston top). > I've got new asbestos > panty liners... Cross-dressing, are we? ;) **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Frank Parker Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:09:25 -0600 (EDT) Subject: Re: DFI ECU > > Hi All > > A friend of mine is looking for a DFI or ACCEL ecu for his > blown 671 351 W. If anyone has a used unit for sale let me know. > > Does anyone know how to get a hold of DFI. > > Thanx all: peter > > DFI may be reached in Wixom, MI at 810-380-1322. Frank Parker ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 08:52:24 -0400 Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming Snipets ... > >> "you'll see that ford does not use the CPU as it was designed (to be > >> used?) . . . they waste so much CPU it's pitiful" > >> > > Having spent from 1986 to 1994 full-time consulting to Ford (both in > Europe for FOB and in the U.S. for NAAO) on EEC-iv/EEC-v design and > programming, I'd be genuinely interested to hear the basis for those > comments. Part of the basis for those comments might be the original writer's past experience working for Ford, in Dearborn, Michigan. I recognize the writer's name as working in the same department I once worked in. No comment as to whether I agree or disagree with the writer's characterization of CPU usage. > >>i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a > >>bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) > >>the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" > >>for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is > >>done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real > >>programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. > > I'll deliberately pass on the "real-programmer" comment, suffice to > say that I'd love to see the algorythm that could calculate > required/optimium Spark Advance under all conditions to enable the > engine to meet its operating criteria of power, driveability and > most importantly emissions given the input data available to an > EEC, i.e. CPS timing data, engine temperature, air-charge > temperature, throttle position, EGO data and Cylinder-ID to name > the significant ones. It's (relatively) easy to determine/calculate > the spark required for optimium power, but the compromises made to > meet emissions and driveability makes it a whole new ball game. I'd like to see such an algorithm too, then I'd like to see it run on a computer that can be affordably packaged in a car or truck. > >From my understanding of [ ] box, you can map out the internal > PROM and use external memory which would let you run any > program/calibration you wanted (and had copies of) in an EEC. > I'd guess you'd need a permanent piggy-back type board with an > EPROM and address decoder PAL on it (a la Super-Chips) to make > permanent changes tho'....... > > I for one would be interested to hear more about these boxes, > especially if they're to become commercially available. I could > find a good use for one ! As I recall, Ford has some discussions about that too. I don't know how the situation was concluded, but you might want to check on the legal restrictions in general and the legal status in particular. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:26:37 -0500 Subject: Re: Wires and such [ snip ] >Like David said, soldering don't cut it when you are talking about wires >that move around. Even wires that attach to a circuit board are (gasp) >wrapped, not soldered, when used in high vibration environments. [ snip ] Soldered connections are still the standard for the majority of hi- reliability connections. Mil-Spec (I mention this, because mil-spec and NASA specs are some of the toughest in the world) and NASA allow crimp only under very stringent guidelines (of course, the same could be said for soldering). Wire wrap is NOT COOL for anything. It's only for temporary connections or for connections which are in a non-hostile environment (i.e. no humidity or temperature extremes, no vibration, etc. - -- essentially in a building). The definition of a good electrical connection: 1. Low resistance. 2. Mechanically sound. 3. Gas tight (so no oxidation can occur). Wire wrap barely meets those criterion. It's low resistance because there's a minimum of ten wraps around a square post (40 contact points) using silver plated wire. It's hardly mechanically sound -- if for no other reason than it uses solid wire which easily breaks. It is gas tight because the wire is "work hardened" by being pulled under tension around the post and therefore becomes springy and maintains a constant pressure trying to unwrap itself (the wire is indented by the post and those indentions, combined with the springiness of the wire, keep the wire pulling against the 40 or more contact points. That is why the wire usually breaks when unwrapping a wire wrapped connection -- the copper has been work hardened. Stranded wire is used for most applications because it is less likely to break (copper, silver, etc. are *work hardened* by being bent, twisted, hit, compressed, etc. -- that's why copper gaskets must be annealed with a torch before being re-used). Solid wire should only be used where there is no possibility of the wire being moved (like jumpers on circuit boards) and where vibration won't cause it to break. The advantages of solid wire are that it holds its shape better than stranded and it's slightly cheaper. Now, for soldered and crimped connections. Crimping is a technology like front wheel drive: it's to save money for the manufacturer. Soldering is very difficult to inspect. It's very hard to train a worker to produce consistently high quality solder joints and it's easy to have a joint that looks good on the surface but which does not join to the metal underneath, giving a *cold* solder joint. (Recommend a book on soldering from an electronics store or Rat-Shack). Crimping, on the other hand, is fast and, if the right tools and connectors are used, can give very consistent results. What's this about not soldering wires that move around? Well, solder *wicks* (by capillary action) up the strands causing the wire to effectively become solid. This increases its likelihood of breaking. So, the rules specify how far the solder is allowed to wick (about 1/8"). There is no evidence that says properly crimped connections are any better than properly soldered ones. The reason I suggest soldering is that most of the problems encountered in electrical / electronic circuits are due to faulty connections. You are not likely to find good crimp connectors at your local parts house (nor will you find a good soldering iron or solder there, for that matter). It is just my experience (and I have a bunch installing industrial electronics in vehicles and ships doing instrumentation and communications) that soldered connections, done by someone who cares, are far less likely to give problems than crimped ones -- and wire wrap must NEVER be used outside of a controlled environment like a home or garage. NEVER use wire wrap in a car, etc. [A quick history of wire wrap. It was patented by Gardner-Denver company and popularized by the telephone company. They used to have to solder wires to terminal blocks in the switch station to hook up new subscribers or to change 'phone numbers. This was real messy, and the terminal blocks were damaged after being soldered on several times. Wire wrap was much faster (they use punch blocks now). The interesting thing to note here is that they originally thought wire wrap would last indefinitely in a controlled environment. Turns out, however, that the connections began to fail after about fifteen years even in the closed switch stations. There's enough vibration just from seismic activity, apparently, to affect the connections, plus the wire's pull seems to relax. Then the silver begins to oxidize under the contact point and, eventually, the resistance of the connection reaches unacceptable levels.] Now, don't misunderstand, I crimp connections in my car. And I'll put a wire-wrapped doo-dad in it if I want to. Just like I sometimes buy parts from Rat-Shack when I know they're poor quality. But, I won't crimp or wire-wrap anything that can cause me to walk home!!! I just want the list members to know what's been found to work reliably -- and why. Tom Cloud Tom Cloud I have no idea where any of the preceeding stuff came from ... ------------------------------ From: atoian@xxx.edu (tom cloud)) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 09:09:03 -0500 Subject: EEC-IV ? Does anyone know if a manual EEC-IV will work on an automatic? Also anyone know the code for '88 turbo coupe auto? | Another Fordnatics post -- Author retains copyright -- ask before forwarding | |Posts: fordnatics@xxx.com| ------------------------------ From: M HILL Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:52:25 GMT0BST Subject: Re: EEC IV reprogramming > >>i'm betting he's refering to the fact that the CPU is just looking up a > >>bunch of tables. (remember superchips .. just tables no code) > >>the cpu only has to look up injector "on time" and SPOUT "phase shift" > >>for any certain rpm, mass air, and engine temperature and its job is > >>done. add on a few more bells and whistles and its done. A real > >>programmer would use the CPU to "compute" these outputs not look them up. I take it from that that you have not seen the strategies for the computers. They do a lot more than just looking at a couple of tables. I know 'cos I have seen the strategies for EEC-IV. Martin. ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 12:14:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures > Incidentally, vinyl coated automotive wire from Wal-Mart or the likes, is > rated up to 75C. It is darned tough getting flexible wire with a higher > temperature rating, short of going to fiberglass insulated oven wire. Try silicone insulated wire. We use that for motor leads in radio controlled cars. The good stuff is so flexible it's limp. Try any good hobby shop. (I actually repaired a clothes dryer with this stuff. It's really good.) +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:09:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab > guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be > adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look back through the digests, and you should find it. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:50:38 -0500 Subject: Re: digital dashboard > >> Look in Radio-Electronics, July, 1990 for an article on building >> a digital dashboard. I personally like the Intersil ICL-7106, ICL-7116 >> chips. They are 40-pin, but require a minimal amount of external >> components and drive the LCD (or LED -- see ICL-7107 or 7117) >> display directly. Hosfelt Electronics (800-524-6464) has these chips >> already on a circuit board with the display for about $16. The >> circuit is the standard circuit described from Intersil, and is a >> differential input. >> The sensors and scaling their outputs to the DPM are another problem. >> As long as the outputs are linear, simple op-amp circuits will >> suffice (LM-324 is a quad op-amp and allows single supply operation). > > >Tom, > >Thanks for the help on getting me started. The only other question >I have is how to handle the display. Do you have any ideas as >to how I would display the proper units for each measurement? >For example: Suppose a .5V signal corresponds to an inlet air temp of >150 F. How would I get the LCD to display the 150 F temperature? >Thanks in advance for any thoughts. > >Chuck Thigpen The National Semiconductor Linear Applications books are great for circuit ideas. Making a display read in the units you want is called "scaling" and can get real tricky. Of course, the easiest is when all you have to do is divide a voltage down using two resistors. The hairiest can be when you have to add an offset voltage and maybe linearize a logarithmic sensor output (e.g. a thermocouple). For your specific example: you gotta know both ends of the spectrum and whether it's a straight line (linear). But let's just take your specific example: if you have a meter that reads 200 mV (actually 199.9 mV for a 3-1/2 digit meter), .5 volts is too large a voltage for it. Divide the .5 volts to where it is .15 volts and your DPM will read 150.0 (you can usually set the decimal point wherever you want it). This would probably be done using a couple of resistors and a pot for fine adjustment / calibration. input o--- R1 --- POT --- R2 --- GND ^ | output Sample values: if you want to vary the output say +/- .05 volts around the .15 volts: choose a pot (there are fewer values available). Say 1 k. Then (.05)*2 = .1 and .1 volt / 1k = 100 micro-amps. Since the voltage across the pot is from .1 to .2, the voltage across R1 = .5 - .2 = .3 volts and across R2 = .1 volts. Then the values for R1 = .3 / 100 microamps = 3 k; and R2 = .1 / 100 microA = 10 k. The "load" your network puts on the sensor is the sum of all the R's and is 3 + 1 + 10 = 14 k. If your sensor requires less load (higher R, you can multiply each value by the same amount and boost it to any value. Hope this helps -- you'll probably have to do some studying. Radio- Electronics and other electronic hobbyist mags can be very helpful. Tom Cloud I have no idea where any of the preceeding stuff came from ... ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:21:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat >> I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab >> guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be >> adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. > > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all >of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look >back through the digests, and you should find it. Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look > back through the digests, and you should find it. Let's see, need at least one magnetron, some waveguides, and some kind of distributor. Also need highvoltge inverter. Hmmm.... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:02:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? If I understand this correctly, having two flame fronts colide (preignition) is a BAD idea. But if it all goes off at the same time, it's OK (think of it as a *very* fast burning fuel). Probably won't need as much advance. +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Tomlinson" Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:15:16 -0400 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > From: Michael F. Sargent > > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look > back through the digests, and you should find it. Forget microwaves; use 16:1 compression ...OR... How is this different from detonation? - -- Chuck Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Chevy EFI Mods I am considering the replacement of the stock 350 in my 1988 Chevy truck with either a 350/350 or a 383/350 from an aftermarket source. The truck is a 4x4 (1500 Series) used for street stuff and occasional towing. I am interested in more power and torque in the 1200 to 4500 rpm range. Assuming that either of these motors are appropriate -- and both come with an Edelbrock manifold, perhaps a Torquer -- what modifications are needed for my TBI to compensate for the extra displacement and increased flows? Do I just need a new chip -- are they available and from where -- or am I looking at extensive EFI mods or a carburetor. Neither of these alternatives is very appealing just now. What happens if I just bolt the old EFI onto the new 350? Or the new 383? John ------------------------------ From: MSargent@xxx. Sargent) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 16:42:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat > Forget microwaves; use 16:1 compression ...OR... How is this different from > detonation? The problem with engine control is timing. With 16:1 compression, the time when the mixure ignites is not as predictable as using 10:1 and sparking it to start it burning. Microwaves have predictable timing ... NOW! +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ From: fridman@xxx.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:04:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs > > >Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all > > Is exploding all that stuff at the same instant a good idea? > > If I understand this correctly, having two flame fronts colide (preignition) > is a BAD idea. But if it all goes off at the same time, it's OK (think of it > as a *very* fast burning fuel). Probably won't need as much advance. Having 2 flame fronts does not seem to be so bad. On some engines (BMW Boxer pushrod motorcycle engines), having 2 flame fronts reduces burn time to such an extent, that raising the compression (8.5:1 to 9.5:1) and reducing the octane (from super to regular) is possible. The mixture can be leaned out as well. I would guess that the twin flame fronts burn the mixture inside the ignition lag time, so detonation is avoided. Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple spark plugs per cylinder? RF. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Frank Mallory Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 17:17:19 -0700 Subject: Re: Chip operating temperatures > > Try silicone insulated wire. We use that for motor leads in radio controlled > cars. The good stuff is so flexible it's limp. Try any good hobby shop. > (I actually repaired a clothes dryer with this stuff. It's really good.) I've been getting pretty good copper core, silicone rubber insulated 8mm wire from J. C. Whitney. ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:39:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Chevy EFI Mods You should use an Perfromer RPM manifiold for that application. me At 04:14 PM 9/30/96 -0400, you wrote: >I am considering the replacement of the stock 350 in my 1988 Chevy truck >with either a 350/350 or a 383/350 from an aftermarket source. The truck >is a 4x4 (1500 Series) used for street stuff and occasional towing. > >I am interested in more power and torque in the 1200 to 4500 rpm range. > >Assuming that either of these motors are appropriate -- and both come with >an Edelbrock manifold, perhaps a Torquer -- what modifications are needed >for my TBI to compensate for the extra displacement and increased flows? > >Do I just need a new chip -- are they available and from where -- or am I >looking at extensive EFI mods or a carburetor. Neither of these >alternatives is very appealing just now. > >What happens if I just bolt the old EFI onto the new 350? Or the new >383? > >John > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:50:31 -0700 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat Robert Harris wrote: > > I picture something like a quartz window screwed in where the plug > now goes, a large, flexible fiber optic light pipe going from the plug > to the laser and a high speed high power laser for each cylinder being > fired by control electronics. I'd pick its light frequency to be > harmonically > related to either the hydrogen or carbon atoms resonance to get > maximum energy transfer. What would be nicer would be to steal some > star wars weapons stuff. Don't matter what the source or type of energy > beam - heck I'd even use a phasor beam (if it was remotely connected to > reality) - just as long as I could fire the whole chamber almost > simultaneously. > I think I remember the addage "I don't do windows", and if I won't, who can I send in to wash my "Quartz Window" off all the time. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering P.S. Otherwise, cool idea, but why not just play with the compression a bit more, inject the flammable stuff at the right time and boom. No spark needed, oh sorry, that's a diesel. ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:57:36 -0700 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber heat At 02:21 PM 9/30/96 -0500, you wrote: >>> I know its possible, what I am hoping is that out there some where, some lab >>> guy has hidden away knowledge of industrial strength lasers that might be >>> adapted to an experiment and is willing to share it with the rest of us. >> > These guys a while back invented this thing, it was made of a glass like substance with a metal electrode through the middle, I can't remember what they called it, but it worked very well. ;-) Sandy ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Mon, 30 Sep 96 17:48:43 CDT Subject: re: Re: Combustion chamber heat Dirk Wright Wrote: | | > | > Someone dicussed (in this group) using microwaves to simultaneously cause all | > of the A/F mixture in the combustion chamber to ignite simultaneously. Look | > back through the digests, and you should find it. | | Let's see, need at least one magnetron, some waveguides, and some kind of | distributor. Also need highvoltge inverter. Hmmm.... Or a handfull of Gunn diodes and 30v at a few amps... How much mw power would it take to ignite the mixture, and how would you get the power into the chamber? Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Michael Fawke Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 11:03:21 +1100 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs [snip] >Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple >spark plugs per cylinder? > Car and Car Conversions magazine's tech person has built an 8 plug Ford pinto motor for an escort race car. It uses adapters screwed into the head with motorcycle plugs. Timing advance had to be reduced, but tests could not be completed because the adapters came loose. The adapters were screw-in to avoid a rule about welded heads.... There have been two articles on this subject in the last four or so issues this year. The magazine is published by Link House. Michael Fawke Canberra, Australia. fawkacs@xxx.au ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 22:18:03 -0700 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Michael Fawke wrote: > > [snip] > >Does anyone have any references to any work dealing with multiple > >spark plugs per cylinder? > > The 911's use them on the newer cars, since 1989 to be exact. The older race car (911's) had twin-plugs as well. It works very well in the Porsche's Hemispherical cylinder head design. We've noted approximately 3-4 degress advance difference on the turbo engines we do. The Fuel Economy is improved, as well as the emissions. Also heard of American Eagle making that 12 cylinder engine for drag racing with 3 plugs per cylinder on a 4 valve engine. The chambers were so huge that a central plug wasn't enough. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #293 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".