DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, 3 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 296 In this issue: RE: EEC IV reprogramming (kidding) RE: 6811 Disassembler RE: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Boost Retard devices? Re: A thought... Re: 351 carbed problem Re: A thought... Re: PC controller. re: Fuel Injection Signal Inputs re: FW: Combustion chamber heat Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Re: D disease Re: PC controller. Re: A thought... Re: A thought... Re: A thought... Re: A thought... Power PC chips to be used in Fords??? Hot cam injection volume changes Re: A thought... Re: A thought... Re: A thought... Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs patents Corvette EFI Problems Re: D disease Re[2]: A thought... Re: patents Re: Corvette EFI Problems Re: A thought... re: ROM bios builder kit (was: a thought...) Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:33:17 +-100 Subject: RE: EEC IV reprogramming (kidding) Not even a little hint? Mark. Only kidding ;-) - ---------- Unfortunately I cannot elaborate as I am forbidden from discussing them as I work for ford doing development work and the information is confidential. It is interesting though. A lot more to it than I thought. Martin ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:37:14 +-100 Subject: RE: 6811 Disassembler Me too! Please! Any format! Mark - ---------- From: Michael Haas[SMTP:Jemikhaas@xxx.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 1996 1:50 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: 6811 Disassembler Hi, Let me make this request again with more selections for the attachment. Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using MIME Base 64, MIME QP, or UUencoded. Thank You Very Much Michael J. Haas ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:27:23 +-100 Subject: RE: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Check out the double ended coil on citroen 2cylinder engines. mark - ---------- From: Kalle Pihlajasaari[SMTP:kalle@xxx.za] Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 1996 7:18 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs Hi Robert, > > What I'm trying to do is somehow make the Bosch CDI unit on my bike > fire 4 plugs instead of two. And I don't have the money to buy a > second CDI unit;) ------------------------------ From: "Robert Gallant" Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 07:15:18 EDT Subject: Boost Retard devices? Has anyone looked into building a device to retard ignition timing as boost pressure increases (like the MSD box). Thanks Rob gallant@xxx.mil ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A thought... On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Roger Heflin wrote: > be pretty easy), then just scan all required sensors (including the > clock) every pass and make the decisions based on that. The patents that I've seen for controlling automatic transmissions sometimes sow controllers that scan the input sensors, do a few simple calculations, then apply the results to a look-up table, then output to the controlled element, such as a motor or solenoid. The look-up table ios in ROM, which is what you buy when you get a hotrod "chip" for your modern car. The table in ROM is usualy multi-dimensioned, with the values inthe tale representing a duty cycle for solenoid, for example. I hope I'm not boring anyone with this..... **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 07:32:05 -0500 Subject: Re: 351 carbed problem dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) wrote: >-> Those carb formulas are nearly worthless. A carb is a restriction in >-> the induction path. For performance use, you want the largest CFM >-> rating that will still properly atomize the fuel. > > I disagree. The usual carb sizing formalas work very well, >particularly with primitive instruments such as Holleys. I've often >seen .1 or better in the 1/4 by dropping back from a 750 or 780 to a >600, not to mention the improvement in street driving. [ snip ] > For EFI stuff, the extra runner length and typical tiny throttle body >have more pressure drop than even a "small" carburetor. [ snip s'more ] I'd like to hear some more 'bout this. I bought the Holley Pro-Jection TBI and they say that unit has considerably less flow restriction than a comparable carb and that the requirement to size the cfm to the engine is relaxed for the EFI since the amount of fuel is determined by the electronics rather than vacuum and air flow. Is the above statement true for TPI and not TBI ?? Tom Tom Cloud None of the opinions expressed here are mine or anyone elses ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 08:05:27 -0500 Subject: Re: A thought... >> From: Arnaldo Echevarria >> >> I'm thinking, instead of going the 68hc11 route, using a pc. Instead of >> building a a/d and d/a board, use two parallel ports. That would give me >> 8 ins and 8 outs. Timing would be resolved by the computer, hell, 386/486 >> motherboards are cheap. (snip ) >I've done a fair amount of PC-based real-time control. The biggest >obstacle you'll encounter is boot time. Even with a flash disk, normal >PC BIOSs waste precious seconds checking everything umpteen times. [ snip ] >If you can find a solid PC BIOS that boots in less than a second, I'd be >interested in it. >-- >Chuck Tomlinson I haven't worked on process control or related in a while, but there were always public domain OS's (and boot routines) available for the 8-bit genre. I'll bet if you look you'll find the same thing exists for the 80x86 types. The advantage is there's cheap hardware already available. You don't normally want all that DOS crap hanging around your neck -- it's too unwieldy, it's for a different purpose. There's too much stuff you don't need. If you can find a simple OS written to work on the PC hardware it'll make a great platform to build any data logger, controller, etc. Tom Cloud None of the opinions expressed here are mine or anyone elses ------------------------------ From: Gordon Couger Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 09:20:10 -0500 Subject: Re: PC controller. I have built a number of machine controlers. Non for engins but some that were pretty well loaded. I have used a 68hc11 alot. Any thing you do at much speed at all has to be reduced to a map or lookup table. The fastest thing it can do is count events at xtal speed/4 2 or 3 MHz which will give about 1 degree at 6,000 rpm for a 8 MHz part. Now then you won'g be able to do any thing at this speed but 3 or 4 times per turn of the crank. At 4 time per rev you would have 90 machine cycles. So real tight code might be able to do more. If you do any divides or multiplies your dead. Intels 80C196 gives you a lot more room to work. They run about the same as a 12 MHz AT. But unobtainium makes up a major part of the processor and the board. I think that a fast PC would be an excelent platform for someone experianced with using them as a development system rather than learning a new compiler and CPU. Most printer ports will give you 16 I/O lines per card. Some are a little strange on some cards. You can easily have 3 printer ports in a PC. You can hook a string of SPI A/D converters to 2 wires of a printer port plus one wire for each A/D converter. If any wants the code I will be glad to email it to you. Good luck Gordon Gordon Couger Senior Software Specialist Biosystems & Agricultural Engineering Dept. Oklahoma State Univ. 114 Ag Hall Stillwater, OK 74075 gcouger@xxx.edu ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 9:29:19 CDT Subject: re: Fuel Injection Signal Inputs Todd J Holbrook Wrote: | | Hi, | Does any one know of a FI system that allows AUX signal inputs to | control the fuel & air ratio as the throttle pedal does. I assume if it | exists it would come with a special throttle plate. | I need a system to over ride the gas pedal when deamed worthy | from a control logic output, The FI manufacters I talked with won't have | this made for production for at least another year. Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 engine will have that in '97. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 9:35:47 CDT Subject: re: FW: Combustion chamber heat Mark Pitts Wrote: | | Interesting Idea: | | I'm not trying to be negative but: | First off, we have two basic types of laser: Gas and Xtal. What about solid state? - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: fridman@xxx.ca (Robert Fridman) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:00:39 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs > All piston aircraft engines from about 1915 on have twin plugs per > cylinder. Switch one set off - engine RPM drops about 500 rpm or > so. Must contribute both to power and reliability. Just part of the > background on why I want a bigger flame. (in the combustion chamber > - remember I have asbestos pampers) Piston Aircraft have a complete duplicate ignition system in case the first one fails. Does anyone know what had to be done in order to make a twin plug head still work with 1 plug? RF. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@xxx.ca ------------------------------ From: Johan Rodling Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 18:11:56 +0100 Subject: Re: D disease - ----- Begin Included Message ----- I've got a bunch of patents on the D-Jet system. It's comprised of a bistable multivibrator, triggered by the extra distributor points, which then triggers a mono-stable multivibrator with variable pulse length. [snip] Hope this helps. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** - ----- End Included Message ----- Yes, it helped :-) I'm *VERY* intrested in those patents, so the question is,how do I get them? If it's BOSCH documents, maybe I can dig them out myself if I get the doc numbers. Otherwise maybe you could send a copy? Thanks. /JR Unix is simple, but it takes a genius to understand its simplicity. -DMR '74 Jaguar XJ5.3 L (V12) - ------------------------------------------------------ Johan Rodling Email: Johan.Rodling@xxx.SE JoRoTech HB Phone: +46 (0)18 36 90 91 Borje, Stromsborg Fax: +46 (0)18 36 91 02 S-755 92 Uppsala, Sweden Mobile: +46 (0)708 385 380 ------------------------------ From: Stephen Dubovsky Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:42:43 -0400 Subject: Re: PC controller. At 09:20 AM 10/2/96 -0500, you wrote: ... >I have used a 68hc11 alot. Any thing you do at much speed at all has to be ... Ok, I going to have to ask... Has anyone out there thought of using a DSP? Before you jump down my throat about cost and stuff Ill explain. Analog Devices high end fixed point DSP (the ADSP2181) is a full 16 bit machine w/ 40 bit accumulator, runs 20-33MIPS sustained, can do single cycle multiplies, has a 'C' like assembly language (by FAR the easiest Ive ever seen to learn and read), and about 32kwords 0wait state of program and data ram (more than enough for most projects and look up tables). One of the slickest architectures Ive seen for fast embedded control (we use its slower cousin the ADSP2101 for alot of three phase motor control). Oh yeah, the cost issue. Well you can get the EZ-KIT-LITE (a protoboard w/ ADC,DAC and software) for <$100. You can download software via a serial cable (or put in an EPROM when its final) and play all you like. The disadvantage is that it doesn't have any parallel ports built in (things have to be memory mapped) but it has provisions to add several wait states to talk to slow ADCs and the like. It does have 2 fast synchronous serial ports to attach things to. If anyone is interested, I can probably dig up more info, but since you have email, you can probably go to the ADI website and get it yourself... http://www.analog.com DSPs were sort of invented for this purpose. In our apps we sample several sensors, do some vector math, 2 or more PI loops, and some more vector math in <20us (50Khz interrupt rate). The things really do fly. (In more familiar terms, at 6000rpm you can execute >555 instructions for every 1 degree of crank rotation! is that quick enough? ;) Hope it helps... SMD - -does it sound like Im plugging ADI? (and no, I dont work for them;) ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A thought... On Tue, 1 Oct 1996, Arnaldo Echevarria wrote: > I'm thinking of putting fuel injection on my pontiac 455 in a '78 trans am. > > I'm thinking, instead of going the 68hc11 route, using a pc. Instead of > building a a/d and d/a board, use two parallel ports. That would give me > 8 ins and 8 outs. Timing would be resolved by the computer, hell, 386/486 > motherboards are cheap. For our FSAE car, I'm leaning towards a similar thing - an 80186 evaluation board. But it's still nowhere near a pc (4"x4", no 12V reqs). > Question 1: Am I crazy? Anyone see an inherent flaw in all of this? > > Question 2: I need a good power supply to give me +12,+5,-5,-12. Should I > pull the car's power, use a 12/24 volt transformer, then get a couple of > voltage regulators to give the voltages I need? Car voltage lines are > extremely noisy, any ideas on how to clean the signal? > > Question 3: Any suggestions, ideas, or people interested? Depending on what the computer is/does, you *might*!! be able to get away w/o the -12V supply (losing serial ports, but I don't know what else needs -12V). Worth a shot I think, but it mioght turn one of your boards crispy! Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: "Dan J. Declerck" Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 16:05:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: A thought... > > > From: "Dan J. Declerck" > > > > > > I'm thinking, instead of going the 68hc11 route, using a pc. Instead of > > > building a a/d and d/a board, use two parallel ports. That would give me > > > 8 ins and 8 outs. Timing would be resolved by the computer, hell, 386/486 > > > motherboards are cheap. > > > Yes, but how will you mount it in your car? How much power can you afford > > to use to run this PC? The benefits might be swallowed by the additional > > Horsepower lost in the new alternator required to run the thing. > > Let's get real here. We're not talking about putting a full tower, with > mirrored SCSI disks, CD-ROM, sound card, 21" monitor, etc. in the car, > just using those components that make sense. > > A typical PC MB is rather small these days. Mount it is a box in the trunk. > The new Pentium MBs include serial, parallel, IDE, floppy, KB, RAM and cache. > Leave room for a couple of commercial analog cards, and add in an IDE drive > for permanent storage. (Later burn the working code into ROM and replace the > BIOS ROM chips.) The whole shooting match would probably only need about > 20 watts of power (measure it sometime). Yow! 1.6A running current. The whole '332 business card computer has running of less than 250 mA. > > > You have to do things in Real-time, and no RTOS is easily accessable > > for this system? > > There are lots of RTOS's available for PC's (i.e. RTEMS or QNX). To debug effectively in real-time, nothing beats the BDM serial interface. There is NO debugger that works well in real-time for embedded 386's > > > How will you isloate this computer system and it's connectors from vibration > > inherent in automobiles? > > Same way you would do it for any controller. What's so diffent about a PC? If you buy an external card, you'll end up running across some connector. I would not give the PCI or ISA bus connector any points for being impervious to vibration. Cars, and especially race oriented vehicles with tight suspension will give you all kinds of problems. > > > How do you do the timing control without a TPU, and/or PWM waveform generator? > > This is the sticker. You would want to find an add-on card with a TPU > (or equiv). Otherwise you will be doing a lot of high speed bit > twiddling (see below). > > > How do you get timing control tighter than 55 ms? (the timer tick on PC boards > > are 1/18th of a second). > > Just plain wrong. > > The timer on a PC uses a programable divider to generate interupts. > Under DOS, and Windows 3.x, the timer was programmed to a value of > 65,536 (actually 0 is used for this divisor) and that resulted in the > 18.2 Hz interupt. But if programmed with a lower value, you will get > faster interupts. A value of 1 would produce interrupts at a rate of > 1,193,180 MHz. To get interupts at a rate of 10,000 Hz, a divisor of > around 119 would be used (actually giving 10,026 Hz). > > BTW: With an engine turning at 6,000 RPM (100 RPS), the engine turns > over 360 degrees every 1/100 of a second. With interupts at 10,000 per > second, that means an interupt will occur every 3.6 degrees. That should > be accurate enough for most people. But if you want greater accuracy, > just reduce the divisor to 33, and you'll get interupts every degree. > (Admittedly, your ISR will need to be pretty tightly coded even on a > Pentium in this case.) > > > How do you program in 80386 assembler and have few bugs? > > Why not use C, or C++, or Pascal, or Ada, or Forth, or ... > The language choices are better for a PC than for any imbedded processor. If you want such tight timing control, you'll end up writing in assembler, and besides that the PIC needs to be reprogrammed. I've done both coding on a 386 and on the 332, in both C/C++ and assembler. The GNU tools are far better than a lot of compilers with the 68000 architecture. The 332 puts all that glue on chip. If you're running Linux, the compiler is free. The money you save on software costs can be put into hardware. What does Microsoft C cost these days? $300? What does a single User license of QNX cost? > > A PC could be a very good choice. If you look in an issue of Circuit Cellar > you will find all sorts of ads for Imbedded PCs, which are PC compatible and > usually have all sorts of analog and digital I/O available. > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Michael F. Sargent | Net: msargent@xxx.com | Phone: 1(613)721-0902 | > | Gallium Software Inc.| | FAX: 1(613)721-1278 | > +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > - -- => Dan DeClerck | EMAIL: declrckd@xxx.com <= => Motorola Cellular CSD | <= =>"The truth to CDMA... is spreading" | Phone: (847) 632-4596 <= - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Ron Madurski Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:02:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: A thought... : : For our FSAE car, I'm leaning towards a similar thing - an 80186 :evaluation board. But it's still nowhere near a pc (4"x4", no 12V reqs). I've got a 386 MB at the house that is about that size. I pulled it out to do an upgrade on a machine. I'm not entirely certain but I think it is a Packard Bell MB. - -- Ron Madurski rmadursk@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Tomlinson" Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:12:46 -0400 Subject: Re: A thought... > From: tom cloud > > I haven't worked on process control or related in a while, but there > were always public domain OS's (and boot routines) available for > the 8-bit genre. I'll bet if you look you'll find the same thing > exists for the 80x86 types. The advantage is there's cheap hardware > already available. You don't normally want all that DOS crap hanging > around your neck -- it's too unwieldy, it's for a different purpose. I really haven't had any problems with DOS. Once the app is loaded and initialized, our DOS-based controllers really don't call any DOS or BIOS services at all. The DOS compilers manage to translate all our core code to "straight" '386 assembly. > There's too much stuff you don't need. If you can find a simple OS > written to work on the PC hardware it'll make a great platform to > build any data logger, controller, etc. I agree that DOS has tons of stuff that isn't necessary for the controller, but one huge benefit of DOS is that you can use industrial strength (but cheap) optimizing C compilers, and do all the debug and development on the same machine. Also, the same compiler can be used to write a powerful user interface for data logging and parameter tuning. If the controller is running stand-alone, you can disable the user interface. Then the extra DOS baggage is all passive, and doesn't create any overhead. Even when I write 68332 controller code, I do all the code maintenance and syntax-checking in a PC development environment, usually the Borland C++ Windows IDE. I only run the '332 compiler and linker when I'm ready to run the code. Maybe it means I'm not a "real" programmer, but I like my development environment to be as effortless as possible (to save my brain-power for the algorithm :-). I also like to keep far away from assembly language. The PC compilers support all sorts of handy macros that allow you to write 100% C code. - -- Chuck Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: nasa@xxx.mil (Chris Adam Thomas) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power PC chips to be used in Fords??? I just read that Ford will be using millions of Power PC chips in their autos. Can someone either give an abstract of the hardware/software design or point me toward more info? Thanks cat ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:30:39 -0700 Subject: Hot cam injection volume changes I just got my '70 302 Ford running with the Holley Projection 4DI ECU. This is a batch fire MAP system. The cam is a high lift (.550"), medium duration (224@xxx. The system indicates that at least a -50% correction is required at idle, 700RPM, to get the mixture correct if the stock 302 look up table is used. The injection volume table is based on RPM and MAP signal. What kind of changes to the lookup table are required for this type of cam? I know the MAP signal is higher at idle and the power output will be higher at higher RPM than the stock cam. Is the MAP signal higher for equivalent power at all RPM or just at idle? I really can't drive the car much until I can pass emission tests and license it, so I need some idea of how to modify the stock table to get it to pass emissions. I only need to pass at idle and under constant load at 35MPH. There is another value that can be modified that is similar to the main jet called Duration offset. It is preset at 55% which means that it is adding 55% to all points of the table. Any ideas are welcome at this point. Thanks, me. *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A thought... On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Chuck Tomlinson wrote: > If you can find a solid PC BIOS that boots in less than a second, I'd be > interested in it. I bought an industrial file server (386dx-16) from Texas Microsystems at a computer swap meet (hey, a 16ga case w/10 bays & 14 slosts for $100 ;). It uses the "B386 Industrial Bios" that has a "fast Boot" option. Takes about 4 secs from power on to Dos prompt (if I abort the bootup w/F5). I hope this helps, but feel free to ask me any other questions about this.... Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 16:37:02 -0700 Subject: Re: A thought... Gentlemen, gentlemen, a minor thought from the peanut gallery. Ever heard of soundblaster 16 cards. Carry TWO each 16 bit digital to analog and TWO each analog to digital converters. Daaaaaaaaaa Costs about 70 bucks - can convert or generate almost any wave form from very low frequency to at least 20,000 + hertz. Line in and line out jacks expect 0 to 1 volt signal. Everywhere in the electronic world people are using them for OTHER than just sound cards. If you are good like me you can put two or more of them in a system. Now as to power, a PC mother board requires 12vdc, 5vdc and -12vdc at very low current. Any half competent component type can put a DC to DC power supply meeting these requirements and probably fit it into the space of a couple packs of smokes. The NEW GREEN PC mother boards and chips can power themselves down to almost zip current when idle. So solve a whole bunch of start up problems by leaving the board on. Turn the key - kick out of sleep mode and avay you go. Get a mother board with a built in scsi controller. Use a whole bunch of ram and a removable harddrive - like a Jazz drive. Boot the sucker up, unplug the external drive, put it in a padded box, and go offroading!!!! BTW, the last process is how many military aircraft computers are done. Just some thoughts about how much ignored and abused capability you already have. Robert Harris The only thing that sucks worse than politics is the politicians. - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 19:57:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A thought... On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Ron Madurski wrote: > : > : For our FSAE car, I'm leaning towards a similar thing - an 80186 > :evaluation board. But it's still nowhere near a pc (4"x4", no 12V reqs). > > I've got a 386 MB at the house that is about that size. I pulled it out > to do an upgrade on a machine. I'm not entirely certain but I think it > is a Packard Bell MB. The nice thing about the EVB is that it has Sram, flash onboard. The 80816EM (AMD), build in a PWM time, an interrupt controll, address decoders, digital IO, and serial ports. Thinking about just stringing it to a couple of NatSemi's uP compatible A/D converters... and going from there. The biggest problem is that I want to be able to use a standard compiler (say Watcom C) for the thing. Anyone care to lend a hand with how to get an Exe into a chip (and have it run ;)? Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 17:54:37 PDT Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs I have added an automotive type plug to some single plug Continental ground power unit heads. It is possible to install the new plug much closer to the center of the combustion chamber that the standard location of the large aircraft plugs. These jugs were used one generators that serviced aircraft. They were built with a different intake and exhaust orientation but are very similar otherwise. They bolt up exactly to aircraft crankcases. The Continental GPU jugs were built with a single ignition. The plug is located in the same place that it is for the aircraft version. With the more centrally located plug in operation, the RPM drop from switching the aircraft plug off is almost negligeable. The drop from switching the central plug off is 400 - - 500 RPM. I don't think that it is reasonable to expect as anywhere near much power gain from adding a plug to a system designed with one plug, as there is power loss when a plug is removed from a two plug system. It is important to remember that there is no advance adjustment at all in the aircraft magnetos under discussion. john carroll jac@xxx.us - ---------------Original Message--------------- > All piston aircraft engines from about 1915 on have twin plugs per > cylinder. Switch one set off - engine RPM drops about 500 rpm or > so. Must contribute both to power and reliability. Just part of the > background on why I want a bigger flame. (in the combustion chamber > - remember I have asbestos pampers) Piston Aircraft have a complete duplicate ignition system in case the first one fails. Does anyone know what had to be done in order to make a twin plug head still work with 1 plug? RF. - ------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------ 83 R100 DoD 749 Robert Fridman 84 320i fridman@xxx.ca - ----------End of Original Message---------- - ------------------------------------- john carroll jac@xxx.us ------------------------------ From: jac@xxx.us Date: Wed, 2 Oct 96 18:22:00 PDT Subject: patents probably every one knows that to find patents you go to www.uspto.gov. - ------------------------------------- john carroll jac@xxx.us ------------------------------ From: John Napoli Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Corvette EFI Problems I need info to solve two Corvette EFI problems: 1. 1985 Corvette needs a Mass Airflow Sensor. New one is $500+ from a dealer. Alternate parts source wants in the high twos. Is there an alternative part that can be used that is less expensive? 2. 1988 Corvette with digital heater controls has a burnt main harness (engine) from an EFI fire. Can't find a source for this harness! Dealer claims that it was discontinued in 1989. ANyone know of a source for this harness? New or used OK. Insurance adjuster has already stated that the car should have been left to burn!!! Thanks. John ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: D disease On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Johan Rodling wrote: > > Yes, it helped :-) > > I'm *VERY* intrested in those patents, so the question is,how do I get them? If it's BOSCH documents, maybe I can dig them out myself if I get the doc numbers. Otherwise maybe you could send a copy? Hey! someone's interested in D-Jet! I'll post the closest patents I've found when I go back to work on Monday. You can buy copies at a patent depoistory library. These are usually the bigger ones, I believe. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: dzorde@xxx.au Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 09:52:16 Subject: Re[2]: A thought... I have tried using a sounblaster for sampling, and believe me it was less than ideal for low frequency stuff, and its very sensitive to noise. We tried using it for noise cancellation system in a car, and it just didn't work for those very low road noises you get. Anyway, I just saw a writeup on a PC/104 card from DGE Systems PTY LTD. Takes 586, 486 DX2 and DX4, so you can use the 120MHz 586. Uses only +5V since it has a built in 3.3V regulator. Size is 90x96mm. Has two RS232 ports, one which can be converted to RS485. Has parallel port configured as Centronics, mouse, keyboard and speaker ports. Standard PC interrupts, DMA controllers and timers. No price mentioned. Hope this is of interest. Dan dzorde@xxx.au ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: A thought... Author: diy_efi@xxx.edu at INTERNET Date: 10/3/96 9:09 AM Gentlemen, gentlemen, a minor thought from the peanut gallery. Ever heard of soundblaster 16 cards. Carry TWO each 16 bit digital to analog and TWO each analog to digital converters. Daaaaaaaaaa Costs about 70 bucks - can convert or generate almost any wave form from very low frequency to at least 20,000 + hertz. Line in and line out jacks expect 0 to 1 volt signal. Everywhere in the electronic world people are using them for OTHER than just sound cards. If you are good like me you can put two or more of them in a system. SNIP ------------------------------ From: Dirk Wright Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 21:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: patents On Wed, 2 Oct 1996 jac@xxx.us wrote: > > probably every one knows that to find patents > you go to www.uspto.gov. Yes, but the text searchable database only goes back to 1971. These Bosch patents are al before then. Bosch apparently licensed some ofthe technology for the D Jet from Bendix. Bendix started development in the 50's on electronic injection. Some of the patents show vacuum tubes! Also, trademarks such as "D-Jetronic" are not found in the patents themselves, so you can't search by that term. Further, many patents by big compnies never make it to market because of either cost or reliablity or something else. So, I had to go through the old patents by hand to look for the ones assigned to Bosch, and then I had to determine if it was likely to be part of the D Jet system. O yeah, that's another thing. Systems liek the D Jet get patented in small pieces. You'll never so the whole thing in one patent. The more I searched, the more interesting it got. I certainly learned a bunch from reading them. **************************************************************************** Dirk Wright wright@xxx.gov "I speak for myself and not my employer." 1974 Porsche 914 2.0 "A real hifi glows in the dark and has horns." 1965 Goodman House **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: peter paul fenske Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 18:18:56 -0700 Subject: Re: Corvette EFI Problems At 09:10 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >I need info to solve two Corvette EFI problems: > >1. 1985 Corvette needs a Mass Airflow Sensor. New one is $500+ from a >dealer. Alternate parts source wants in the high twos. Is there an >alternative part that can be used that is less expensive? Hi John. If you check the corvette rags you will see 85 Mafs selling for about 250$US. Apparently you can use the 86 89 also but I have not verified this. They run about 199$ US in the rags. It is a bit more expensive to convert to MAP unfortunately. >2. 1988 Corvette with digital heater controls has a burnt main harness >(engine) from an EFI fire. Can't find a source for this harness! Dealer >claims that it was discontinued in 1989. ANyone know of a source for this >harness? New or used OK. Insurance adjuster has already stated that the >car should have been left to burn!!! Get a service manuel and build it. Other than that find someone who can. Cost should be compareable to a new harness. > >Thanks. > >John > Good Luck: peter 85 coupe > ------------------------------ From: Arnaldo Echevarria Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 23:18:55 -0400 Subject: Re: A thought... >Now as to power, a PC mother board requires 12vdc, 5vdc and -12vdc >at very low current. Any half competent component type can put a >DC to DC power supply meeting these requirements and probably fit >it into the space of a couple packs of smokes. I am attempting to do something like this. Unfortunately, my Forte is software, not hardware, so I'm not 'half competent'. Could you give me an idea on how to build such a power supply? Arnaldo aec@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Darrell Norquay Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: re: ROM bios builder kit (was: a thought...) At 07:57 PM 10/2/96 -0400, Thor Johnson wrote: > The biggest problem is that I want to be able to use a standard >compiler (say Watcom C) for the thing. Anyone care to lend a hand with >how to get an Exe into a chip (and have it run ;)? There is a company in California called "Annabooks". They sell a real nifty BIOS kit which allows you to write your own bios using routines from their library, I believe they also have the tools for ROMing your exe files to put onto a flash ROMdisk or whatever, and they also have a version of MSDOS specially made for ROMdisks. I don't have the address + details handy, but I think they have a web page. Try a Yahoo or Webcrawler search for Annabooks. If you still can't find them, drop me a line next week (I'm out of town until the 10th) and I can email you the particulars. regards dn dnorquay@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: "Johnny" Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:58:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs When the bore gets over 5 inches it is really hard to get the combustion taken care of in a timely manner with only one plug. If you could put the plug in the middle, like what you did, it would be much easier to achieve a burn, but you just can't fit them big plugs in the middle, and with airplane engines, they have to have 2 anyway, so they never really worried about it too much. The GPU version of these engines have only one mag, harness, and set of plugs partially because they were derated for ground use (generator or whatever) so they still made the rated horsepower with only the one plug, and partially because it didn't matter much if a plug failed (you aren't going to stop flying on your generator), and partially because it is quite a chore to swap over the parts to make it a 2 plug, 2 mag engine and slip it in an airplane, so even though the GPU's are essentially the same engine, they sold for a lot less dough even when they were new compared to there flying counterparts. What I ended up doing for my experimental aircraft V8 was to go ahead and add a second plug to each cylinder to achieve true redundancy for the dual direct ignition. Plus this eliminates that squawk from potential buyers that come from an aircraft background that require 2 plugs per cylinder. However, on the SBC, it made absolutely no difference as far as performance or anything else. Part of this is due to the fact that I use a regular set of AR heads and just add the second plug to them. this makes the plug positions fairly close together so you really don't get a different burn. If you were to design a head from scratch to use 2 plugs, and put one on one side and one on the other, you might get some different results. Back when I was drag racing (about a hundred years ago), I found that the Chrysler Hemi, with it's huge chamber, really did benefit from having a second plug. on the 2 plug heads, the plugs are still both in the top of the dome, but they are spaced a ways apart as to shorten the distance remaining from the plug to the outside edge of the chamber. Especially on alcohol based fuels, you can get to a point were you just plain can't get it all lit and burned before the end of the cycle without having to run ridicules ignition advance. The 2 plug heads shortened the burn time and aloud running a more normal amount of advance which in turn widened the power band a bit and also broadened the margin for error as far as detonation and missed setup for mixture went. I guess the bottom line would be; adding more plugs probably never hurts, but you will benefit the most if you (re)design the chamber for multiple plugs from the start, as opposed to adding to an existing setup. - -j- - ---------- > From: jac@xxx.us > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Combustion chamber & twin plugs > Date: Wednesday, October 02, 1996 5:54 PM > > > I have added an automotive type plug to some > single plug Continental ground power unit heads. > It is possible to install the new plug much > closer to the center of the combustion chamber > that the standard location of the large aircraft > plugs. > > These jugs were used one generators that > serviced aircraft. They were built with a > different intake and exhaust orientation but are > very similar otherwise. They bolt up exactly to > aircraft crankcases. The Continental GPU jugs > were built with a single ignition. The plug is > located in the same place that it is for the > aircraft version. > > With the more centrally located plug in > operation, the RPM drop from switching the > aircraft plug off is almost negligeable. The > drop from switching the central plug off is 400 > - 500 RPM. > > I don't think that it is reasonable to expect as > anywhere near much power gain from adding a plug > to a system designed with one plug, as there is > power loss when a plug is removed from a two > plug system. It is important to remember that > there is no advance adjustment at all in the > aircraft magnetos under discussion. > > > > john carroll > jac@xxx.us > > ---------------Original Message--------------- > > All piston aircraft engines from about 1915 on > have twin plugs per > > cylinder. Switch one set off - engine RPM > drops about 500 rpm or > > so. Must contribute both to power and > reliability. Just part of the > > background on why I want a bigger flame. (in > the combustion chamber > > - remember I have asbestos pampers) > > Piston Aircraft have a complete duplicate > ignition system in case the > first one fails. > > Does anyone know what had to be done in order to > make a twin plug head > still work with 1 plug? > > > RF. > > ------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------ > 83 R100 DoD 749 > Robert Fridman > 84 320i > fridman@xxx.ca > > > ----------End of Original Message---------- > > > > ------------------------------------- > john carroll > jac@xxx.us > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #296 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".