DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 4 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 298 In this issue: RE: A thought... Dual Plugs FW: Combustion chamber & twin plugs RE: A thought... JOKE: - ENGINEERS FIXING A CAR RE: A thought... MAP Re: Boost Retard devices? Re[2]: ROM bios builder kit (was: a thought...) Re: MAP Re: MAP Re: PC compatible motherboards RE: MAP Re: MAP Re: PC compatible motherboards Re: Hot cam injection volume changes Re: A thought... Re: MAP Re: Hot cam injection volume changes Re: Op codes PC Based Injection computer- Caution! Re: A thought... Re: Hot cam injection volume changes Re: PC Based Injection computer- Caution! Re: 351 carbed problem Re: A thought... Re: Hot cam injection volume changes Re: Corvette EFI Problems Bosch O2 Sensor DIY ABS (was: A thought...) drive-by-wire Re: 6811 Disassembler See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:43:24 +-100 Subject: RE: A thought... I Like it... hadnt thought of it for years, but PC hardware has come a = long way since I wrote it off years ago. For that matter so has my = coding ability, Time for a rethink. Mark - ---------- From: Robert Harris[SMTP:bob@xxx.com] Ever heard of soundblaster 16 cards. Carry TWO each 16 bit digital to analog and TWO each analog to digital converters. Daaaaaaaaaa Costs about 70 bucks - can convert or generate almost any wave=20 form from very low frequency to at least 20,000 + hertz. Line in and line out jacks expect 0 to 1 volt signal. Everywhere in the electronic world people are using them for OTHER than just sound cards. If you are good like me you can put two or more of them in a system. The NEW GREEN PC mother boards and chips can power themselves=20 down to almost zip current when idle. =20 Get a mother board with a built in scsi controller. Use a whole bunch = of ram and a removable harddrive - like a Jazz drive ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:51:52 +-100 Subject: Dual Plugs Is there any reason why (assuming nothing in the way!) you cant just = drill a bloody great hole in the head, weld in an adapter, and add = another plug? Mark ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:00:10 +-100 Subject: FW: Combustion chamber & twin plugs This seems to related to the position of the origional plug in the first = place. My current heads are kiddny shaped chambers, with plug right over = one side. I know that I need to modify my chamber shape, and valves, but = it must me worth putting another plug over the otherside. (I,ve always = been a rever, and not a slugger, my engine regularly revs to 8000 on = down changes, and the standard 'red line' for the Le Man spec one was = 9000) and for this reason, i.e. I like to rev the nuts off it, another = plug must help burn time (might stop it knocking as well). Mark Any coments? - ---------- From: jac@xxx.us] With the more centrally located plug in=20 operation, the RPM drop from switching the=20 aircraft plug off is almost negligeable. The=20 drop from switching the central plug off is 400=20 - - 500 RPM. I don't think that it is reasonable to expect as=20 anywhere near much power gain from adding a plug=20 to a system designed with one plug, as there is=20 power loss when a plug is removed from a two=20 plug system. It is important to remember that=20 there is no advance adjustment at all in the=20 aircraft magnetos under discussion. ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:24:48 +-100 Subject: RE: A thought... Ive a car psu schematic that I nicked off a friend of mine who used to = work at Stack (the electronic instrument people). I'll see if I can dig = it out. Mark - ---------- From: Arnaldo Echevarria[SMTP:aec@xxx.net] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 1996 4:19 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: A thought... >Now as to power, a PC mother board requires 12vdc, 5vdc and -12vdc=20 >at very low current. Any half competent component type can put a >DC to DC power supply meeting these requirements and probably fit >it into the space of a couple packs of smokes. =20 I am attempting to do something like this. Unfortunately, my Forte is software, not hardware, so I'm not 'half competent'. Could you give me an idea on how to build such a power supply?=20 Arnaldo aec@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:28:12 +-100 Subject: JOKE: - ENGINEERS FIXING A CAR Just a quicky. Mark There are four engineers traveling in a car; a mechanical engineer, a = chemical engineer, an electrical engineer and a Microsoft support = engineer. The car breaks down. "Sounds to me as if the pistons have seized. have to strip down the = engine before we can get the car working again", says the mechanical = engineer. "Well", says the chemical engineer, "it sounded to me as if the fuel = might be contaminated. I think we should clear out the fuel system." "I thought it might be an grounding problem", says the electrical = engineer, "or maybe a faulty plug lead." They all turn to the support engineer who has said nothing yet, and = say: "Well, what do you think?" "Ummm - perhaps if we all get out of the car and get back in again?" - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:07:24 +-100 Subject: RE: A thought... I Still don't like coding in low level for the PC, I still don't like C, = and I still hate ISA cards, and the concept of an automotive PC PSU. = I'll go back tomy 68xxx series, but I can see that the PC is now a valid = platform for this kinda stuff. Mark (who might build test systems on ISA prototyping boards, before = moving to a custom system) - ---------- From: Mark Pitts[SMTP:saxon@xxx.org] Sent: Thursday, October 03, 1996 10:43 AM To: 'Robert Harris'; diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: RE: A thought... I Like it... hadnt thought of it for years, but PC hardware has come a = long way since I wrote it off years ago. For that matter so has my = coding ability, Time for a rethink. Mark ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:38:11 +-100 Subject: MAP I've trying to work out how to build a map sensor. Try this on your brains: Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the = Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work out MAP by MAF through the = tiny restriction. Seems to work for me (till the hole gets blocked!), so any comments = welcome.=20 The sensor is about $90, good specs, but its MAF range is measured in = SLM.. anybody know what SLM is? Mark ------------------------------ From: txhartma@xxx.com (Terry Hartman) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 07:48:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Boost Retard devices? > > From: "Robert Gallant" > > Has anyone looked into building a device to retard ignition timing as boost > pressure increases (like the MSD box). > > Thanks > > Rob > gallant@xxx.mil Crane makes the TRC-1 that performs the same function when a GM MAP sensor is added to it. If you're wanting a unit to compare features with, look at the BBK/Mallory Boost Timing Controller. Seems to be the best comercially available unit because it's so flexible... T. - -- Terry Hartman txhartma@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Terry Sare Date: 3 Oct 96 08:25 CDT Subject: Re[2]: ROM bios builder kit (was: a thought...) Annabooks: 11838 Bernardo Plaza Court San Deigo, CA 92128-2414 (619)673-0870 800-462-1042 Another Company that makes link/locators is Paradigm Systems 3301 Country Club Rd Suite 2214 Endwell,NY 13760 800-537-5043 www.devtools.com I have used a limited version of their link/locate for a V25 SBC and it worked (MS C7). It was free so I didn't complain -- much. They do make libraries that allow you to write code that doesn't expect DOS or other OSs. One thing to note: when you don't have a OS, things like printf, all buffered IO, file IO, and all memory allocation functions do NOT work in PC Compilers. Paradigm and other companies make libraries that address this problem. Otherwise you get to piece a library together from sources like 'Embedded Systems' and 'Circuit Cellar'. ts ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ROM bios builder kit (was: a thought...) Author: owner-diy_efi-outgoing@xxx.edu at dell_unix Date: 10/3/96 1:20 AM >At 07:57 PM 10/2/96 -0400, Thor Johnson wrote: > I used their stuff back at the dawn of time and John and John have a good solid product with good support. Last I looked the price was right. This is good solid code. We had a 4 NHz pc boot off a floppy in 10 seconds. It didn't do any error checking it just loaded and went. We eventaly threw away all the disk drive code and replaced it with network code. It took two of us a couple of days after we found our way around their code. Gordon >There is a company in California called "Annabooks". They sell a real nifty >BIOS kit which allows you to write your own bios using routines from their >library, I believe they also have the tools for ROMing your exe files to put >onto a flash ROMdisk or whatever, and they also have a version of MSDOS >specially made for ROMdisks. I don't have the address + details handy, but >I think they have a web page. Try a Yahoo or Webcrawler search for Annabooks. >If you still can't find them, drop me a line next week (I'm out of town >until the 10th) and I can email you the particulars. > >regards >dn >dnorquay@xxx.com > ------------------------------ From: atsakiri@xxx.com Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 10:11:09 -0400 Subject: Re: MAP > Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the = > Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work out MAP by MAF through the = > tiny restriction. Seems like a lot of effort to go through for a pressure measurement. Won't the mass flow be related to the pressure ratio across the orifice. You still have an unknown quantity, the pressure on the side of the orifice opposite the manifold. Two other things come to mind. If the flow is choked, you won't get an accurate answer. It creates a manifold leak. > SLM.. anybody know what SLM is? SLM might stand for standard liters per minute, standard referring to standard temperature and pressure. Interesting way to spec a _mass_ flow meter. Anthony Tsakiris - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employer. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:13:42 -0500 Subject: Re: MAP >I've trying to work out how to build a map sensor. > >Try this on your brains: > >Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work out MAP by MAF through the tiny restriction. > >Seems to work for me (till the hole gets blocked!), so any comments welcome. > >The sensor is about $90, good specs, but its MAF range is measured in SLM.. anybody know what SLM is? > >Mark If you'll look only a week or so back, you'll find a thread (I think started by me-self) that resulted in several suggestions. If you can't find it, I'll look (I printed it and put it 'somewhere' for future reference). The sensor is off-the-shelf, is available from Newark for about $25. Tom Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Thu, 03 Oct 96 08:46:00 PDT Subject: Re: PC compatible motherboards <<< I haven't worked on process control or related in a while, but there were always public domain OS's (and boot routines) available for the 8-bit genre. I'll bet if you look you'll find the same thing exists for the 80x86 types. The advantage is there's cheap hardware already available. You don't normally want all that DOS crap hanging around your neck -- it's too unwieldy, it's for a different purpose. There's too much stuff you don't need. If you can find a simple OS written to work on the PC hardware it'll make a great platform to build any data logger, controller, etc. Tom Cloud >>> Yes it could be a working platform, treat it like an EVB for a microcontroller. Forget the PC OS issues, just toss the BIOS PROM and the OS. The machine will vector to the known start address; have your own PROM code there and you are off to the races, just like a 6811 eval board. No problem, other than not having an onboard A/D. Easy enough to prototype one onto a card slot protoboard or interface one to a parallel port. Already have several timers onboard though. 'Course you'll be using assembly for all this. Remember that there are thousands (millions?) of factory cars running around with ECM's based on 6811 (at slow clock speeds) caliber processing; It would be fun to use the latest DSP processors, or a Pentium, or quad 200 MHz Pentium Pros, or ?? but you can sure get the job done with ALOT less processing horsepower... <<< I really haven't had any problems with DOS. Once the app is loaded and initialized, our DOS-based controllers really don't call any DOS or BIOS services at all. The DOS compilers manage to translate all our core code to "straight" '386 assembly. >>> That's what is nice about DOS from a tweaker's perspective- it allows you to get right down into the hardware level and has no "overseer" function. Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:05:29 +-100 Subject: RE: MAP I was thinking of using one of the Motorola pressure sensors.. but they = dont like reverse pressure, and I'm shure at some point in development = I'm going to end up with fire out of the inlet trumpets (always have = done in the past with carbs!) so the reverse pressure pulse will kill = it. The Honneywell things are mini MAFs, and so will read either way. = The comment I've also received indicates..'yes but you end up with a = leak' I'm only talking about a pin hole in the manifold (and you need a = little bypass to keep the ticking over anyway.. and that is going to be = a lot of air compared to this!)=20 What I'm trying to say is.. the sensors measure in the range of 1 cubic = centimeter per second, or more depending on sensor , and I dont think = that these type values are going to be a problem. The MPX sensors wouldn't enjoy boost too much either. As for calibration.. yet another lookup table.. or just offset = everything in the tables to account for non linearity. I guess pressure in a plenum chamber is fairly constant.. and there must = be places where air is NOT rushing past the surface (i.e. where my 'pin = hole' is) to make a suitable sight for a sensor. (far corner from the = throttle body?) I started a thread on.. lets turn a peice of 6" drain pipe into a MAF, = with a bridge and some nichrome, I'm still going to try it, but at the = moment I'm interested in converting a normal 'carbs and distributor' = system to mapped timing, no MAF. Sorry if the above mail doesnt read too coherently, but this idea is = chasing several paths round my brain at the same time. Mark A copy of that tread would be most welcome! Win95 ate my mails last = week! - ---------- If you'll look only a week or so back, you'll find a thread (I think started by me-self) that resulted in several suggestions. If you can't find it, I'll look (I printed it and put it 'somewhere' for future reference). The sensor is off-the-shelf, is available from Newark for about $25. Tom Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Todd Knighton Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 09:12:39 -0700 Subject: Re: MAP Mark, My question is WHY? Remember KISS. A good motorola map sensor that is temperature trimmed and compensated sells from Newark for about $23.00. And you don't have to backwards calculate MAF to MAP. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering Mark Pitts wrote: > > I've trying to work out how to build a map sensor. > > Try this on your brains: > > Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work out MAP by MAF through the tiny restriction. > > Seems to work for me (till the hole gets blocked!), so any comments welcome. > > The sensor is about $90, good specs, but its MAF range is measured in SLM.. anybody know what SLM is? > > Mark ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:27:20 -0500 Subject: Re: PC compatible motherboards > That's what is nice about DOS from a tweaker's perspective- it allows you to > get right down into the hardware level and has no "overseer" function. That's one of the (many) reasons you'll never see a MAC mother board used for such. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Arnaldo Echevarria Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:39:39 -0400 Subject: Re: Hot cam injection volume changes >I just got my '70 302 Ford running with the Holley Projection 4DI ECU. This >is a batch fire MAP system. The cam is a high lift (.550"), medium duration >(224@xxx. The system indicates that at >least a -50% correction is required at idle, 700RPM, to get the mixture >correct if the stock 302 look up table is used. The injection volume table >is based on RPM and MAP signal. How do you like it? Is it what they play it up to be? Which one did you get (45/65/85 lb/hr?) I'd really appreciate it if you could tell me 1. What kind of fuel pump do they use (gallons/hr) 2. Does it come with a fuel filter 3. Does it use a adjustable fuel press regulator, and if so, at what psi. 4. Does the software come with a couple of fuel maps 5. Does it fire all of the injectors, even at idle? The reason I ask all of these questions to you or anyone who may know is because I'm thinking of using the 4DI throttle body ($400) to build my own efi system. I'm pretty sure the throttle body comes with the fuel injectors and throttle position sensor. All I'd need to buy is: 1. Fuel pump / pressure regulator ($150) 2. map/egr/water sensors ($100) I know that's a little pricey considering that the whole system can be bought for $1200, but this is something I've been wanting to do for a long time. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Arnaldo aec@xxx.net ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A thought... On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Arnaldo Echevarria wrote: > >Now as to power, a PC mother board requires 12vdc, 5vdc and -12vdc > >at very low current. Any half competent component type can put a > >DC to DC power supply meeting these requirements and probably fit > >it into the space of a couple packs of smokes. > > I am attempting to do something like this. Unfortunately, my Forte > is software, not hardware, so I'm not 'half competent'. Could you > give me an idea on how to build such a power supply? Check out Analog Devices. IF these are low power, AD has some prebuilt 5V-|>+/-12 converters (usually used for powing opamps and such from a single +5 supply). Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: Fred Miranda Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:01:31 -0700 Subject: Re: MAP Main problem I see here is that it will read backwards. ie. max flow when the throttle is closed, tapering off to nothing at WOT (and reverse under boost). Is this what you are after? Fred >Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work >out MAP by MAF through the tiny restriction. ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:25:41 -0500 Subject: Re: Hot cam injection volume changes >>I just got my '70 302 Ford running with the Holley Projection 4DI ECU. This >>is a batch fire MAP system. The cam is a high lift (.550"), medium duration >>(224@xxx. The system indicates that at >>least a -50% correction is required at idle, 700RPM, to get the mixture >>correct if the stock 302 look up table is used. The injection volume table >>is based on RPM and MAP signal. > >How do you like it? Is it what they play it up to be? Which one did you get >(45/65/85 lb/hr?) [ snip ] Thought you'd like to see a note one of the (well known) regulars on the list sent me re the 4di (won't mention his name 'less he wants to say who he is). = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Oh no! Not a Holley! I hope you don't have the 4Di. That system is terrible. The one with the knobs on it is much better. I recently worked on a 93 Liconln Town car with a big block 605 in it. Carbs didn't work too well so they put on the digital Holley system (4Di). Damn thing would barely run. Holley just didn't put enough control into the thing (like how much RPM you can add in hi-cam mode). They try to use a standard O2 sensor for wide range control. Put a scope on it and it was WAY off. I will eventually put an EEC on it to get it to run right. Car is real strange. Canary yellow, BIG wheels/tires and probably 600 HP. When I'm driving it around people just laugh....until I push the throttle a little bit!!! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = [ the "one with the knobs" is the Pro-Jection. There's a 2 bbl (670 cfm) and a 4 bbl (900 cfm I think).] Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: talltom Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 11:51:25 -0700 Subject: Re: Op codes I just want to put in that I can respect Ed, Mark and the rest in their position. I know it's a fine line between assistance and sabotage. Personally I am more than willing to believe Mark about the myriad of objectives the government and corporations can come up with, which is exactly the point of this to me. I and I believe others don't want a car tuned by a committee, and could care less about what somebody else wants. We want to set them ourselves, for our objectives. As a result our objectives may be considerably less involved than the corporate ones. ------------------------------ From: Thor Johnson Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC Based Injection computer- Caution! Actually, I remembered something (never happened before... strange)- on anything later than an XT, the bios is REQUIRED if you want to use the cardslots (because the AT bus still runs at 8 MHZ, and the Chipset handles the slots/????) mapping. We tried a homebrew setup on a 12 MHZ 286, and got nowhere... moved it to a 8088, & it worked. Note however, the BIOS is designed to look for additonal ROMs to execute (like on the VGA card). I don't know which adresses, but if you put your program there, the bios will have setup the bus, and then pass control to you. Whether or not you give it back is your decision ;) Thor Johnson johnsont@xxx.edu http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont Have you seen the WarpMap lately? http://falcon.mercer.peachnet.edu/~johnsont/warpmap ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:42:08 -0700 Subject: Re: A thought... The +/-dc on the mother board is low power. Off the mother board, no - -12vdc is needed. The drive connectors only need +12vdc and 5 vdc. The 5 vdc requirement can get very hefty as thats what runs most of the stuff or is regulated down to 3.x volts. The battery can be regulated to produce 12vdc so not a biggy, Producing the 5 is going to need most of the power. The -12v is mainly bias. On same topic, make sure mother board is late model GREEN mother board with power saving logic and BIOS or its a tosser for automotive use. Also, toss the concept of expensive industrial disk drives for booting. Use a CD-ROM. The CD recorder is only about 700 bucks and if you ain't ran them off one of your computer nerd friends probably has one. A CDR disk only costs about 7 bucks, is impervious to even grease monkey hands and won't break before your bones are mush. Use a cheap ass 3.5 floppy to boot, load from the cheap 4x CD ROM with the cdr disk in it, and write back critical tables to the floppy. Floppy should last at least a month, and a 25 cents apiece, toss it every two weeks to be super safe. Use a cheap tape drive - 250 meggers available for under a hundred bucks to record data logging, and maybe even writing back critical tables. Since you are using a GREEN motherboard, you never turn the PC off. Then when you turn key, you just generate interrupt, kick out of green mode and be styling. If you aint got a nerd friend, use the money you just saved from thinking about industrial strength hard drives, and buy the CDR yourself. Works great for pirating --- OOOPS - backing up CD ROM software. Also, forget old MFM RLL ESDI hard drives. Day be doggie doodoo and are not made anymore. The early ones take more power to run than a complete Pentium 166 system with everything on it. BTW, they are built like a tank outside and the heads and platters are just as fragile as the new stuff. But if you really want one, you can generally find one at the bottom of the junk bin or dumpster of your local PC shop - no economic value. The only thing that sucks more than politics is the politicians. Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:01:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Hot cam injection volume changes I'm not giving up just yet. There are many variables in the Holley system, including O2 Sensor trigger voltage, RPM range and ignition timing. The range of adjustments seems to be there. My question is more about what a hot cam does to the MAP sensor reading relative to a proven stock cam, is the MAP higher just at idle or over the whole RPM range? Can the injection volume look up table modifications be anticipated and changed before taking the car to the street by understanding the differences in the cams? me *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:19:44 -0700 Subject: Re: PC Based Injection computer- Caution! On late model mother boards removing the BIOS KILLS DEAD the mother board - makes it forever a big time dead guy. Do not even think about becoming super-guru and replacing the factory BIOS. Buried in that BIOS is the power management control, perpiphial control, bus logic etc etc etc. In fact, virtually everything that used to take a jumper on the mother board is now controlled from the BIOS. The last machine you could really write your own BIOS on was probably the early 286's. Whats the big deal. After boot up and configure etc, all thats left of the BIOS is a couple of tables in memory. Overwrite your own pointers there and the BIOS is gone forever until next power cycle. Hell, even Windows 95 totally replaces the BIOS by assigning new pointers to it's own code. If Bill Gates can do it, why can't you. Those pointers are documented in hundreds of geeky nerdy books (read by people like me) available at your local computer book store. Side note. There ain't no place to put your own ROM chip at any reasonable cost on any modern mother board. But if you are cheap, real nice and open minded enuff, think about your local friendly NE-2000 clone network board. Fits an ISA slot - cost's about 20 to 30 bucks, got a socket for a ROM and PC BIOS already know how to find it and add it to your system. Just think - a no brainer. Hell, if you are really nerdy, and willing to build on Bill Gates, you can even use it to communicate with other computers (Gasp - horrible thought- you might develop on a PC and down load to this puppy effortlessly just by buying some software - oh no Mr. Bill!!!!) On to software and side issues about "Charactor". A good engineer is lazy, crafty, sly and "steals" a lot. Solve the problem should be the first consideration not how neat you can be. If the solution is in the public domain - use it. When STEAL is mentioned, it means don't re-invent the wheel - just because you can. MS-DOS and Windows have literally billions of dollars of software and hardware written and built to work with them. I can for very few dollars buy real time operating systems that co-exist or run under DOS and Windows just spiffy fine. For under a hundred bucks, I can buy FFT processing library's that can make a Pentium blow the doors off any DSP. Using Visual Basic, I can put together a complete control system for an industrial plant in days - not years. Point being - I'd rather use my Master Card and STEAL this stuff than go out and try to invent it. Do not bother the factory guys - they ain't going to help anyway. Once upon a time I asked a guy working at a company if he could get the basic cam number's on a 25 year out of production truck engine and if there were any other changes between the propane and gas version. Understand, this data was from when Moby Dick was a minnow and been published in factory spec sheets, and other public domain sources thousands of times. Just don't have the resources to pour thru every book in the autosection or buy back issues. Would have liked even a clue as to where to go to find it. Nothing Nada - not even a f___ you bery much. You ain't going to get squat from them, it ain't a matter of ethics or anything else - they just ain't going to do it so don't bother asking. At least people on government stuff can and will discuss unclassified stuff with you. Maybe less of a job fear factor at the CIA? Robert Harris - ---------- ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:20:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: 351 carbed problem At 07:32 AM 10/2/96 -0500, you wrote: >> For EFI stuff, the extra runner length and typical tiny throttle body >>have more pressure drop than even a "small" carburetor. > > [ snip s'more ] > >I'd like to hear some more 'bout this. I bought the Holley Pro-Jection >TBI and they say that unit has considerably less flow restriction >than a comparable carb and that the requirement to size the cfm to >the engine is relaxed for the EFI since the amount of fuel is >determined by the electronics rather than vacuum and air flow. >Is the above statement true for TPI and not TBI ?? > >Tom > >Tom Cloud > >None of the opinions expressed here are mine or anyone elses > Let me step in and defend the ALL MIGHTY GM TPI. It's true that the TPI set up does not flow 700 or 800cfm as the antiquated carbs do. But, with this combination you simply don't need it, it gives 360ft-lbs of torque @ about 3,200rpm and one of the highest volumetric efficiencies of any normaly asperated engine. One of the reasons the carbs were so big was because the older engines had to be reved above 5 grand to get those high horse power numbers the elders like to quote so much. With a wet intake manifold there is a critical velocity to stay above to prevent a/f mixture seperation. Don't forget, it's raw torque that makes the car go. Most (ALL) oem TPI set ups are built to give you the maximum torque in region you need it most (low rpm). Let me quote the last person I raced through the quarter (he had two 700cfm Holleys on a tunnel ram), "If we were racing accross the state, at speeds above 130mph, I would have won .. you Son Of a ...!!" I couldn't hear the last part due to my squalling tires. GMD ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:22:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: A thought... At 12:07 AM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >My experience is in chassis control. .. We don't use PCs for brake control :-) >-- >Chuck Tomlinson > Hi Chuck, I've been thinking about a simple abs for my '58 chevy truck. Somthing real simple, that could be done with a basic stamp type PIC. These are just thoughts so don't send Dr. Kavorkien to my home :() What do you think? Are there oem system that are easy to retrofit? Or is it suicide to attempt this? thanks GMD ------------------------------ From: "George M. Dailey" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 18:30:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Hot cam injection volume changes At 04:30 PM 10/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >I just got my '70 302 Ford running with the Holley Projection 4DI ECU. ...I >really can't drive the car much until I can pass emission tests and license >it... I only need to pass at idle and under constant load at 35MPH.. > >Thanks, me. >*************************************************************************** >* Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * >* Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * >* Manager System Integration and * >* Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * >* VLSI Technology, Inc. * >* 8375 South River Parkway * >* M/S 265 * >* Tempe, Arizona 85284 * >*************************************************************************** > What are the emmision laws there for street rods? Here in Mississippi, were still griping because a few months ago, muffler shops started refusing to repair exhaust systems that did not have the cat-conv. We have no emission testing.... yet. GMD ------------------------------ From: "William A. Sarkozy" Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 19:27:41 -0700 Subject: Re: Corvette EFI Problems At 09:10 PM 10/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >I need info to solve two Corvette EFI problems: > >..........etc. Try Michigan Corvette Recyclers 11995 US223 Riga, MI 49276 (Barry Patton) (800) 533-4650 (517) 486-4650 Good Luck Bill '74 Roadster ------------------------------ From: Doug Robson Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 09:53:06 +1000 Subject: Bosch O2 Sensor - -- HI all who knows wether the WideBand ( .6 to 1.2 i think ) 4 wire Heatd O2 Bosch sensor is used by all people including MOtec and wetther The Autronic specified one ( which they dont tell me who makes it ) are the same . The Only variable i see can be the return voltage?? |===============================================================| | When I die, | | I want to go in my sleep, like my grandfather, | | not screaming like the passengers in his car. | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Doug Robson (H) mailto:doug@xxx.au | | (W) mailto:Doug.Robson@xxx.com | | Sydney, Australia http://www.cia.com.au/doug | |---------------------------------------------------------------| | Club Car Racing Register of NSW | Thank God | | 1992/93 Under 2 litre State Champion | for | | http://www.cia.com.au/doug/ccrrnsw.html | Gravity | |===============================================================| ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Tomlinson" Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 20:51:03 -0400 Subject: DIY ABS (was: A thought...) > From: George M. Dailey > > Hi Chuck, I've been thinking about a simple abs for my '58 chevy truck. > Somthing real simple, that could be done with a basic stamp type PIC. These > are just thoughts so don't send Dr. Kavorkien to my home :() What do you > think? Are there oem system that are easy to retrofit? Or is it suicide to > attempt this? All the ABS work I've done was on vehicles that originally had production ABS, so the vehicle was wired and plumbed for the modulator and wheel speed sensors (the key ingredients in ABS). I suspect it would be a lot of work to fit wheel speed sensors to a pre-ABS vehicle (like a '58), but it can be done. My main concern with DIY ABS: many of the failure modes cause immediate and total loss of brake pressure. Production ABS has more diagnostic and fail- safe code than control code, so any conceivable failure will be detected and dealt with in the safest possible way. Even with tightly controlled test facilities, experimental ABS is treated with utmost care and respect. IMHO, brake failure is far more dangerous than engine failure (although a grenaded engine can spit you into the woods, too). The bottom line: I highly recommend against DIY ABS. Without access to proper test facilities and, more importantly, many highly experienced ABS engineers, DIY ABS is a disaster waiting to happen (and it probably wouldn't wait long). - -- Chuck Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:56:20 est Subject: drive-by-wire >Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 >engine will have that in '97. Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or something else? ------------------------------ From: Donald Whisnant Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 22:38:53 -0500 Subject: Re: 6811 Disassembler >From: Mark Pitts >Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:37:14 +-100 >Subject: RE: 6811 Disassembler > >Me too! Please! >Any format! > >Mark > >- ---------- >From: Michael Haas[SMTP:Jemikhaas@xxx.com] >Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 1996 1:50 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: 6811 Disassembler > >Hi, > > Let me make this request again with more selections for the >attachment. > > Could you send me a Copy of your 68HC11 Disassembler using > MIME Base 64, MIME QP, or UUencoded. > > Thank You Very Much > > Michael J. Haas > Michael and Mark... I emailed both of you guys a copy of the disassembler... Mark, yours went through, but Michael, yours kept bouncing back to me .... I'm trying to send it again -- if you don't get it, I don't know what else to try... For everyone else: If anyone wants a copy of it, send me a private email and I'll email you a copy (I say private because I may happen to miss a post now and then on the list)... Donald Whisnant dewhisna@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #298 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".