DIY_EFI Digest Friday, 4 October 1996 Volume 01 : Number 300 In this issue: FW: MAP FW: PC compatible motherboards FW: Hot cam injection volume changes FW: DIY ABS (was: A thought...) FW: MAP RE: PC Based Injection computer- Caution! [none] Re: FW: MAP Re: MAP re: drive-by-wire re: drive-by-wire Re: drive-by-wire re: Re: drive-by-wire Re: Using PC HW Re: Hot cam injection volume changes Re: Re: drive-by-wire Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards [none] RE: PC stuff from Bob RE: drive-by-wire RE: drive-by-wire re: RE: drive-by-wire Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards RE: drive-by-wire Re: RE: MAP RE: drive-by-wire re: RE: drive-by-wire Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:53:19 +-100 Subject: FW: MAP Didnt think it would be a problem, just need a single dimensional look = up table for it, or for that matter, just modify the main MAP table to = read backwards (with compensation built into the main table for non = linearity) Only an Idea.. dont want to start an argument, but you are right.. it = will read both ways, so it could measure boost as well. Mark - ---------- Main problem I see here is that it will read backwards. ie. max flow when the throttle is closed, tapering off to nothing at WOT (and reverse under boost).=20 Is this what you are after? Fred >Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the = Honeywell miniature MAF sensors, and work >out MAP by MAF through the tiny = restriction. ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:29:16 +-100 Subject: FW: PC compatible motherboards What about the Atari ST? cheap 68000, with rom ports, boots pretty quick = as well, lots of interesting IO ports including the DMA hole (that only = needed some glue to turn it into SCSI). That thing even emulated the mac = with a couple of proms thrown in the side of it. A lot of the old Atari = STs had spare PROM sockets inside as well. Just a thought . Mark. - ---------- That's one of the (many) reasons you'll never see a MAC mother board used for such. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:59:27 +-100 Subject: FW: Hot cam injection volume changes You could do the electronic equivalent of what I do.. To pass my test I just screw the needles in on my carb setup until nout = comes out. My mate at the garage tests it, then we push it out of the = bay, and screw the needles back to where they should be. How bout a switch under the dash that puts it in pass emissions test = mode, and leave your cat on the shelf from one end of the year to the = next? Mark (works under English law) - ---------- From: George M. Dailey[SMTP:gmd@xxx.com] What are the emmision laws there for street rods? Here in Mississippi, = were still griping because a few months ago, muffler shops started refusing = to repair exhaust systems that did not have the cat-conv. We have no = emission testing.... yet. GMD ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:45:24 +-100 Subject: FW: DIY ABS (was: A thought...) Hi guys. I thought about this, but having been brought up on never mind = what it sounds like and how it goes, just make shure it goes round = corners and stops, I couldnt agree more. I got thinking about modifying = Citroen Hydraulic suspension to be active,(which they have now done for = production (wouldnt mind just stealing all their good work and using = it)). My humble advice is go to an open day at a race track and play silly = buggers untill you get enough mental control to let up on the brakes = manually. I'm not to good at this myself yet, but the concept of = something bad happening in chassis arena scares me bad. ((one sheered = half shaft, one sheered front stub axle, and sheered front upright have = to be similar to suspension failures/blow outs, and that sinking feeling = of having boiled the brakes, and being in need of choosing a hedge = quick....oh... and a front anti roll bar that snapped its U bolt = mounting mid corner ..car chose the hedge that time ;-) ) That said steeling a system from a production car seems like a safe = enough bet ;-) Mark=20 (who has seen far to many fly by wire accidents on TV, and suffered to = many mechanical failures to think about adding solder into the equation) - ---------- Even with tightly controlled test facilities, experimental ABS is = treated with=20 utmost care and respect. IMHO, brake failure is far more dangerous than = engine failure (although a grenaded engine can spit you into the woods, = too). The bottom line: I highly recommend against DIY ABS. Without access to = proper=20 test facilities and, more importantly, many highly experienced ABS = engineers,=20 DIY ABS is a disaster waiting to happen (and it probably wouldn't wait = long). - -- Chuck Tomlinson ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:22:06 +-100 Subject: FW: MAP Got the part # Todd? And possibly the URL for some info on it? Thanks alot Mark - ---------- Mark, My question is WHY? Remember KISS. A good motorola map sensor that is temperature trimmed and compensated sells from Newark for about $23.00. And you don't have to backwards calculate MAF to MAP. Todd Knighton Protomotive Engineering ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:19:23 +-100 Subject: RE: PC Based Injection computer- Caution! Its something like the rom needs to be on a page boundary in the top 384 = k and start with AA55 or 55AA, I can find out if anybody wants to know. Thinking about it, to find out where to put proms, look in Cmos, and = find out which bits you are allowed to shadow. Those addresses that are = allowed in cmos, are a good place to put proms! Check out a book called Interfacing to the IBM PC published by sams, = last checked out of print, and stolen from every library I can find! = (but I do have a friend with a copy). Mark Thor Johnson wrote: - ---------- Note however, the BIOS is designed to look for additonal ROMs to execute = (like on the VGA card). I don't know which adresses, but if you put = your=20 program there, the bios will have setup the bus, and then pass control = to=20 you. Whether or not you give it back is your decision ;) Thor Johnson ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 12:10:04 +-100 Subject: [none] Its something like the rom needs to be on a page boundary in the top 384 = k and start with AA55 or 55AA, I can find out if anybody wants to know. Thinking about it, to find out where to put proms, look in Cmos, and = find out which bits you are allowed to shadow. Those addresses that are = allowed in cmos, are a good place to put proms! Check out a book called Interfacing to the IBM PC published by sams, = last checked out of print, and stolen from every library I can find! = (but I do have a friend with a copy). Mark Thor Johnson wrote: - ---------- Note however, the BIOS is designed to look for additonal ROMs to execute = (like on the VGA card). I don't know which adresses, but if you put = your=20 program there, the bios will have setup the bus, and then pass control = to=20 you. Whether or not you give it back is your decision ;) Thor Johnson ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 07:35:35 -0500 Subject: Re: FW: MAP > >Got the part # Todd? And possibly the URL for some info on it? >Thanks alot >Mark On 9-13, this was posted: >> I would like to add MAP sensing to my system. What's a good MAP to use, >> how much is it, where does one get it (if it's for a vehicle, I suppose >> a parts house), and how does it work? Alex Cazin replied: >The Ford EEC-IV MAP sensor is a good one. It is a "smart" sensor, >with on-board signal processing and it has digital output, a "near" >perfect square wave (49-51 % duty cycle). It is rugged and it lives >well in the engine compartment and a long vacuum hose from the >intake manifold does not bother it. > >Square wave output makes it easy to process. Output frequency is from >about 159 Hz at 0 in. vacuum (key ON, engine OFF or wide open >throttle, same as baro pressure output) to around 102 Hz at 21 in. >vacuum (idle). > >Frequency vs. vacuum output is pretty linear for a good sensor. > Thanks, Alex. Now, I'll just need to find out how much it costs, what it looks like, how it mounts, etc. To followers of the thread, Todd Knighton recently posted: "Newark Electronics has the Motorola Sensors. They're not to be put in "the engine compartment. They're not ruggedized. We've been putting "them inside the Motronics unit inside the car and they've worked well. "the MPX4250A is a 2.5 bar absolute sensor, so it's good to about 20psi "and absolute vacuum. They make a MPX4100A, I think that's the number, "for normally aspirated vehicles, never ordered that one. These are all "temperature trimmed and compensated sensors so they aren't affected by "different temps like most MAPs are." The data sheets for these are on the Motorola web page, (http://motserv.indirect.com/) and they're listed in the Newark catalog for about $26. They have a linear voltage output (not freq), are small and have different methods for connecting them to the pressure source to be measured (probably via a hose). Now, which to use -- and what does one do with the data re EFI ?? The analog output might be ideal for me to augment the control on the Holley aftermarket system I already have. For a digital system, will simply A-D. Now, the frequency output of the OEM unit -- seems that that would entail either an F-V convertor and then A-D or an interrupt driven timer circuit that would return a number of counts proportional to the period of the sensor output. Any suggestions? Tom Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: Chris Morriss Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:24:09 +0100 Subject: Re: MAP In message <3253E5F7.1E98@xxx.com>, Todd Knighton writes >Mark, > My question is WHY? Remember KISS. A good motorola map sensor that is >temperature trimmed and compensated sells from Newark for about $23.00. >And you don't have to backwards calculate MAF to MAP. > > >Todd Knighton >Protomotive Engineering > > >Mark Pitts wrote: >> >> I've trying to work out how to build a map sensor. >> >> Try this on your brains: >> >> Put a tiny hole in the manifold, and connect that to one of the Honeywell >miniature MAF sensors, and work out MAP by MAF through the tiny restriction. >> >> Seems to work for me (till the hole gets blocked!), so any comments welcome. >> >> The sensor is about $90, good specs, but its MAF range is measured in SLM.. >anybody know what SLM is? >> >> Mark > Be careful of the low cost pressure sensors, (Motorola/Sensotronics types). The output varies quite strongly with temperature changes. I suggest that you pay the bit extra for the temperature compensated ones. - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 9:31:24 CDT Subject: re: drive-by-wire RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Wrote: | | >Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 | >engine will have that in '97. | | Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who | will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or | something else? | There was an article about it recently in Corvette Fever. You can find an expanded electronic version of this article, minus the pictures, at the following URL: http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/ls1-1.html It's an entertaining read, even if you aren't a vette nut. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 9:31:24 CDT Subject: re: drive-by-wire RABBITT_Andrew@xxx.au Wrote: | | >Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 | >engine will have that in '97. | | Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who | will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or | something else? | There was an article about it recently in Corvette Fever. You can find an expanded electronic version of this article, minus the pictures, at the following URL: http://www.dcc.edu/vettenet/ls1-1.html It's an entertaining read, even if you aren't a vette nut. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: Markus Strobl Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:05:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: drive-by-wire > >Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 > >engine will have that in '97. > > Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Is it a physical wire or just how will it be implemented? The stuff I've read about the LS1 just mentions it's 'electronic'. > Who > will supply it? Probably Delco. > Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or > something else? The LS1 has a single throttle body. It's huge. - ------- Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 10:14:57 CDT Subject: re: Re: drive-by-wire Markus Strobl Wrote: | | > >Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 | > >engine will have that in '97. | > | > Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? | | Is it a physical wire or just how will it be implemented? The stuff I've | read about the LS1 just mentions it's 'electronic'. The only connection between your heavy foot and the throttle is by a wire. There is an electronic actuator on the throttle body which is controlled by the computer. | | > Who | > will supply it? | | Probably Delco. One interesting aspect where LS1 departs from the Small-Block is that the whole induction system, intake manifold, throttle body, injectors, fuel rails and wiring, is assembled by an outside supplier, shipped to the engine plant as one piece and simply bolted in place. | | > Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or | > something else? | | The LS1 has a single throttle body. It's huge. | | | ------- | | Markus '96 Z28 w/ mods. Proof that OBDII is not the end of performance. | | Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: "Robert Harris" Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:40:16 -0700 Subject: Re: Using PC HW Once upon a time there was created a device called a laptop, and it was good and people mightily consumed this gift. But some said - woe is me, I turn it on and it takes too much time and now my life is sad and I can't do what I want because I am unwilling to wait. So the hardware god at Intel meet with the Oracle, Bill Gates and together they devised power management to save enuff power so that the User would not have to turn his laptop on and off to save power, but could run it many hours on its battery and almost forever plugged it. And it was good. And the Greater Gods at the EPA looked forth upon the land and saw it was good. So they mandated that hence forth all PC's would be power saving PC's known as GREEN PC's. And thus it came to pass. But yet, there were many among the people who could not abide the thought of the time it took to come up from off to running solitaire, so the wailing and gnashing of teeth about start up time continued unabated. So again, the software gods brought forth instant on off programs that saved the state of the PC when turning off and reverted back to this state instantly (bery bery quickly) when turned back on. And life became good again. (But they only work under DOS and windows) But the big question remains - if you are going to use late model clone mother boards - why bother to turn it on and off. Your kick butt stereo will consume more power in minutes than an idling GREEN PC will in a month - yet I don't hear sniveling about how much power it takes with the key off. Also most automotive electronics such as radios, EFI's etc use a small amount of keep alive current so reprogramming is not necessary. Its kind of like whining it takes too long to dyno tune my car, because I want to do it every time I turn my key on, instead of every once in a while when I have time and just starting the engine otherwise. A further aside about late model mother boards. Do not use anything found in a Compaq, Packard Hell, Gateway 2000, IBM or similar production consumer Computer. The mother boards are highly proprietary and you'll have better luck getting information out of the car factory guys about their highly secret 25 year out of production truck motors than you will from these guys. AT standard clone aftermarket boards (which by the way includes some bery bery good boards made by Intel or using readily available Intel chipsets) ALWAYS outperform the factory boards, are months if not years ahead of the factory crapola board and if they have the award or ami bios (the two most popular) allow the setup to be optimized for anything. And since all peripherals are controlled by the BIOS, have allowed you to turn the keyboard on and off since Moby Dick was a minnow. This opinion comes after having built or repaired several thousand PC's since peace was declared. Further, I have seen clones live from shop floors including controlling machinery to lawyers offices. Keep them clean, and within human comfort range and you won't have a problem with ANY reasonable electronics'. Your choices about reasonably priced PC's boil down to basically using a clone PC or a much less powerful developmental/prototype system like 68xx stuff. To find the competition to the PC with the exception of the MAC and the rumored to still exist somewhere in Barvaria Amiga clone, you need to go dumpster diving - cause they ain't made anymore, they ain't supported anymore, they aint worth anything anymore and you really have to be into self-inflicted pain to even think of using them. But if I was really heavy into pain, and I had back door access to a major game house, I'd take a real close look at SEGA or PLAYSTATION or similar wazoo high end game box. Lot of potential there - if you can get the info somewhere. If you are thinking about rewriting the BIOS, reserve a few hundred man years its not simple, trivial, or easily do-able - else believe me, Phoenix, AMI and Award would have a hell of a lot more competion. I plan to use PC clone stuff - becuse I like it, I'm lazy, I steal what works, am not overly into self inflicted pain, can use my home PC to write, test, debug etc. all my software on affordable tools - only the factory guys get millions to screw around with and above all - am cheap. Wazoo Pentium mother boards can be had for starting about $100. - Spiffy fast Cyrix 686 or Intel Pentiums in the $100 plus range depending on speed, Ram at under ten bucks a meg cheap software -etc. ect. Besides if a little overkill is good, how about a lot? Too Much, Too Much, Too Much - is never enough!!!. Robert Harris ------------------------------ From: Mark Eidson Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 08:56:23 -0700 Subject: Re: Hot cam injection volume changes You have to pass the test for the car in th e year it was made. A '70 Mustang is not too bad, it had no cat conv, air pump, etc. If you build a car from scratch, like a street rod, I don't know how they will regulate it. If it is built from a real '34 Ford chassis, I think you can get away with the rules for a car prior to emmissions testing. If you build a kit car with an 85 Ford 302 you have to pass for that engine, I think, for Arizona anyway. At 06:30 PM 10/3/96 -0500, you wrote: >At 04:30 PM 10/2/96 -0700, you wrote: >>I just got my '70 302 Ford running with the Holley Projection 4DI ECU. ...I >>really can't drive the car much until I can pass emission tests and license >>it... I only need to pass at idle and under constant load at 35MPH.. >> >>Thanks, me. >>*************************************************************************** >>* Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * >>* Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * >>* Manager System Integration and * >>* Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * >>* VLSI Technology, Inc. * >>* 8375 South River Parkway * >>* M/S 265 * >>* Tempe, Arizona 85284 * >>*************************************************************************** >> >What are the emmision laws there for street rods? Here in Mississippi, were >still griping because a few months ago, muffler shops started refusing to >repair exhaust systems that did not have the cat-conv. We have no emission >testing.... yet. > >GMD > > > *************************************************************************** * Mark Eidson Voice: (602)752-6513 * * Staff Design Engineer Fax: (602)752-6000 * * Manager System Integration and * * Verification E-Mail: mark.eidson@xxx.com * * VLSI Technology, Inc. * * 8375 South River Parkway * * M/S 265 * * Tempe, Arizona 85284 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 09:32:18 -0700 Subject: Re: I think it is a bit more invlolved then that, I have a complete x86 Bios and DOS with source, I think I recall that you need the AA55, then the size, the the last word must be a checksum or some dribble like that. Also another company that sell hardned x86 PC Bios and Multi-thredded DOS is 'General Software', in Seattle Washington. I have both Embedded DOS and Embedded BIOS from them. The problem is that you have to shell out some cash, and for a single project it is not cost effective. This stuff would work, as you can build the BIOS and DOS to have just the components you need, and eliminate all that boot crap. Sandy At 12:10 PM 10/4/96 +-100, you wrote: >Its something like the rom needs to be on a page boundary in the top 384 = >k and start with AA55 or 55AA, I can find out if anybody wants to know. >Thinking about it, to find out where to put proms, look in Cmos, and = >find out which bits you are allowed to shadow. Those addresses that are = >allowed in cmos, are a good place to put proms! >Check out a book called Interfacing to the IBM PC published by sams, = >last checked out of print, and stolen from every library I can find! = >(but I do have a friend with a copy). > >Mark > ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 09:32:13 -0700 Subject: Re: drive-by-wire At 08:56 AM 10/4/96 est, you wrote: >>Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 >>engine will have that in '97. > >Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who >will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or >something else? I had them on my old BMW 750iL, and I think that Mercedes uses them on some cars as well. One thing they are very expensive. I has to have one of the two replaced, and it cost about $1200.00. I was thinking at the time, how nice a throttle cable would be... Sandy ------------------------------ From: Sandy Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 09:32:16 -0700 Subject: Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards By the time you get all the PC related junk working, drives, cases, power supplies, etc, you might as well just go buy a nice SBC that has all the stuff on it. I have seen 68332 boards for about $250 with some PD 'C' compilers, and assemblers that you can develop on the PC. Besides that the '332 has the TPU and other neat features that you can't possibly get on any PC or add on card. And it will stay working when you hit a bump! Sandy ------------------------------ From: Todd King Date: Fri, 04 Oct 96 10:07:00 PDT Subject: [none] << Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:58:00 +0200 Subject: Using PC HW A little warning about using normal consumer PC HW - it seems, that most of the late motherboards are very >>> The motherboard mentioned was a 386 I believe(?)... <<>> Maybe some registers but not all need to be addressed before the board can be used. I assume the 386 mb is an EISA board at best. If you want to use that bus it's no problem to initialize, all the info is readily available about EISA (or ISA) spec, any chips that might be used, ect. Just visit the relevant web pages pretty much. Also Mindshare books on EISA, ISA, whatever are pretty good, "The Indespensible PC Hardware Book" is good, etc. It is very do-able; plenty of other folks have. <<<...don't think it's easy to replace the BIOS with your own code. There are detailed manuals about >>> Well the BIOS is just code written by a human like yourself, don't be scared of it. This is the *DIY*_EFI list after all, right? I assume the intent is to use some of the mb hardware for EFI control, not to attempt to write your own IBM PC compatible BIOS. The mb hardware does not need to be all set up for PC compatibility here, just get the timers going, p-port going, etc. Forget about the PC word and concentrate on the hardware usage. <<<...One other problem could also happen with some motherboards - I'm not sure if it is possible to disable the keyboard on all boards. If you don't have the keyboard connected, you might end up with BIOS saying "keyboard error, press F1 to continue" etc. (very stupid message anyway). >>> The point is that we aren't talking about integrating a PC into the car, just using some of the mb hardware for EFI control. If you have your own code in there you won't see someone elses messages about keyboards, right? For development work you can use the mb connected in a PC system but when done just desolder the PROM and install a socket for your own PROM. You've just created your own Eval board. The mb hardware won't mind a bit, I assure you :-) BTW, I have had both my laptop and my big, bulky old PC in my car at various times for development efforts, powered by an old Radio Shack power inverter. Not to mention a clunky old Dumont o'scope, dot matrix printer, etc... For the last year+ I've been using a full blown 6811 EVM in the car for various reasons; it was not necessarily intended for that either but there it lays, connected with spaghetti wiring to the ECM. Hey, if you want to put mb hardware to work for you go for it, IMHO! Todd Todd_King@xxx.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 20:12:06 +-100 Subject: RE: PC stuff from Bob Hear hear! Love the syle... good point to. Did you ever see the bit about C or was it UNIX? (cant remember..but it = was in the same vain.. I can dig it out if ya like (providing the = floppy's still readable!)) Mark - ---------- From: Robert Harris[SMTP:bob@xxx.com] Once upon a time. SNIP!!!! (big cutters in use here!) Besides if a = little overkill is good, how about a lot? Too Much, Too Much, Too Much - is never enough!!!. Robert Harris ------------------------------ From: Mark Pitts Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 20:23:20 +-100 Subject: RE: drive-by-wire My fathers just finished a 1932 Riley rebuild (anybody want to see a = piccy? Its pretty) and the throttle on that is all pull rods and = bellcranks, smooth, you bet, precise.. very... bitch to set up... oh god = we were there for hours! But... solid PULL rods are the way to go... for anything.. solong as you = dont have to go round too many corners. Pet hate.. cable clutches. Quick query .. what is the guesstamate on the percentage of auto cars = in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and = TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a = manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) Mark... - ---------- From: Sandy[SMTP:sganz@xxx.com] Sent: Friday, October 04, 1996 5:32 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: drive-by-wire At 08:56 AM 10/4/96 est, you wrote: >>Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1=20 >>engine will have that in '97. > >Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who=20 >will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or=20 >something else? I had them on my old BMW 750iL, and I think that Mercedes uses them on = some cars as well. One thing they are very expensive. I has to have one of = the two replaced, and it cost about $1200.00. I was thinking at the time, = how nice a throttle cable would be... Sandy ------------------------------ From: Daniel Ridge Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: drive-by-wire > Pet hate.. cable clutches. Pet hate.. hydraulic clutches. What's wrong with a nice, self-adjusting cable clutch? Which would you rather have fail on you while driving through the Heart of Deepest Africa? However, the thing I really can't stand -- trunks and engine bay latches that operate only by cable. My Fiat X1/9 is such a car. Is there some solenoid that I can buy cheaply from a yard that I can install to tug on the cables for me? > Quick query .. what is the guesstamate on the percentage of auto cars in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) I understand that only 11% of new cars are sold with manuals. The VW "drivers wanted" series of ads that has been running here lately has featured _only_ manual trans. cars. - -Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\___/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Daniel Ridge | USRA CESDIS Research Minion, Beowulf Project | Code 930.5 email: newt@xxx. W274 tel: 301-286-3062 | Goddard Space Flight Center fax: 301-286-1777 | Greenbelt, MD. 20771 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\_|_/~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://cesdis.gsfc.nasa.gov/people/newt ------------------------------ From: SRavet@xxx.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 96 14:55:37 CDT Subject: re: RE: drive-by-wire Mark Pitts Wrote: | in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and = | TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a = | manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) Depends on the type of car. The only cars you typically find with sticks (manuals) are economy cars, some sports cars, and some trucks. Take Hondas. Most of them used to be sticks, now most of them are autos. Of course, they used to be cheap cars, now they're expensive. As far as sports cars go, 5.0 Mustangs are at least 50% stick, maybe more. For some reason GM sports cars are usually sold with auto. Even vettes. Peeking in windows tells me that only 30% or so of vettes are sticks!! Doesn't make sense, that 6 speed is a thing of beauty. Camaros are even more lopsided. You hardly ever see a stick Camaro. These observations are from people I know and looking in car windows, I don't know any real statistics on how many sticks vs. autos get sold. - --steve Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Baby you're a genius when it comes to cooking up some chili sauce... ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:32:26 -0500 Subject: Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards >By the time you get all the PC related junk working, drives, cases, power >supplies, etc, you might as well just go buy a nice SBC that has all the >stuff on it. I have seen 68332 boards for about $250 with some PD 'C' >compilers, and assemblers that you can develop on the PC. Besides that the >'332 has the TPU and other neat features that you can't possibly get on any >PC or add on card. And it will stay working when you hit a bump! > >Sandy having to put stuff in the i/o card slots would be a major hassle: you'd have to stabilize them so they wouldn't vibrate and even then they'd eventually cause probs. (sooner than later) Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: cloud@xxx.edu (tom cloud) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: RE: drive-by-wire >Quick query .. what is the guesstamate on the percentage of auto cars in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) bet it's at least 85 - 90 %. now, commercial vehicles aren't included in this guesstimate and performance cars may be more stick than auto, but the the sedans and "sports" cars that the average u.s. joe buys are most likely gonna be auto. Tom Cloud ------------------------------ From: "Brian Warburton, c/o Turbo Systems Ltd" Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 21:33:03 Subject: Re: RE: MAP >I was thinking of using one of the Motorola pressure sensors.. but they = >dont like reverse pressure, and I'm shure at some point in development = >I'm going to end up with fire out of the inlet trumpets (always have = >done in the past with carbs!) so the reverse pressure pulse will kill = >it. > >The MPX sensors wouldn't enjoy boost too much either. > The Motorola MPX2700AP is rated to measure up to 4 bar and is fully temperature compensated all for 7-40 (about $12 U.S.) in the UK. I would imagine that would meet the needs for most turbo and non-turbo applications ....... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Brian Warburton, "Still searching for the perfect curve....." email: bwarb@xxx.net Advanced Automotive Electronics Ltd, Van-Nuys House, Scotlands Drive, Farnham Common, England. SL2-3ES ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ From: fish@xxx.com Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 17:27:33 -0400 Subject: RE: drive-by-wire Hello - you are sending email to the wrong person. You intended recipient is not at earthnet.com try earthlink.com or earthnet.net??? At 08:23 PM 10/4/96 +-100, you wrote: >My fathers just finished a 1932 Riley rebuild (anybody want to see a piccy? Its pretty) and the throttle on that is all pull rods and bellcranks, smooth, you bet, precise.. very... bitch to set up... oh god we were there for hours! > >But... solid PULL rods are the way to go... for anything.. solong as you dont have to go round too many corners. > >Pet hate.. cable clutches. > >Quick query .. what is the guesstamate on the percentage of auto cars in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) > >Mark... > > > >---------- >From: Sandy[SMTP:sganz@xxx.com] >Sent: Friday, October 04, 1996 5:32 PM >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >Subject: Re: drive-by-wire > >At 08:56 AM 10/4/96 est, you wrote: >>>Are you talking about a drive by wire system? The new corvette LS-1 >>>engine will have that in '97. >> >>Does anyone know anything about this drive-by-wire throttle body? Who >>will supply it? Is is a single throttle setup or one per bank or >>something else? > >I had them on my old BMW 750iL, and I think that Mercedes uses them on some >cars as well. One thing they are very expensive. I has to have one of the >two replaced, and it cost about $1200.00. I was thinking at the time, how >nice a throttle cable would be... > >Sandy > > > > > EARTHNET ONLINE, INC. http://www.earthnet.com ------------------------------ From: Markus Strobl Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:38:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: re: RE: drive-by-wire > Mark Pitts Wrote: > | in the USA guys... I've got a warped view of your country from films and > = > | TV and stuff, but I cant remember the last time I saw summit with a = > | manual box. (is that what you call 'stick shift' ?) 'stick shift' or 'standard' are the most common terms.. > For some > reason GM sports cars are usually sold with auto. Even vettes. Peeking in > windows tells me that only 30% or so of vettes are sticks!! Doesn't make > sense, that 6 speed is a thing of beauty. Camaros are even more lopsided. > You hardly ever see a stick Camaro. I remember when the new Camaro came out in '93 with the 6-speed they only built 6% 6-speeds... 94% autos! For about 2 years it was just impossible to find a 6-speed at a dealer. As soon as they got one in it was gone the same day. Often for well *above* sticker price. GM finally saw the light and increased 6-speed production, but in some parts of the country it's still hard to find 6-speeds in stock. Having grown up in Europe I don't understand how anyone would want a auto (or slush box as I call them) instead of a stick. So it seems Europeans have much more brains when it comes to tranmissions but why do European cars have those small pathetic sub-3 liter engines? AFAIK Europe never had V8 engines in 'normal' cars. Only European V8 I know of outside expensive british sportscars or luxary cars would be the opel diplomat back in the 60s? > Steve Ravet Markus '96 Camaro Z28. 6-speed (of course). ------------------------------ From: gparmer@xxx. Parmer) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:29:31 -0500 Subject: Re: FW: PC compatible motherboards > having to put stuff in the i/o card slots would be a major hassle: > you'd have to stabilize them so they wouldn't vibrate and even then > they'd eventually cause probs. (sooner than later) > > Tom Cloud I'll agree with all that has been said about the necessity for stabilization and the like, but I'd trust a notebook PC or a SBC with a PCMCIA card smothered in insulating gel as quickly as I'd trust anything **I** could build out of discrete components... ...not to mention the fact that I can use the leftover processing power of a notebook 486 for a whiz-bang nice GUI display. The nicest thing about using the PC platform is that if it ain't small enough/fast enough/cheap enough now, it will be by the time you're done with the prototype. Do it however you like for your application, but I'm with "thecomputerdude" on this one. BTW--As a compromise to Bob's suggestion of leaving the controller in "green" mode *all* the time, what about resetting when the ignition is turned OFF? Surely it will have rebooted by the next morning. :) Why can't everyone use the platform of personal preference? It doesn't really matter whether one uses a Z80 or a P166 as long as it works. - -greg ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V1 #300 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".